Hi PB,

Well, I had this whole long post written out that suddenly just evaporated...I'll try to recall what I had said...

PB, as I said before, your marriage is ON FIRE. So, I'm going to be frank with you. Time is of the essence here.



EVERYBODY has flaws. Do you believe you or your husband are flawless?



A (ONE) character flaw does not make a person completed flawed. We are defined by more than one choice, more than one episode in our lives.



What strikes me about this (and the tone of your whole post) is that you seem to be making excuses for your husband. I think we agree that unmet needs can make a marriage vulnerable to an affair, as can many other factors that Dr. Harley outlines in his concepts: lack of honesty, time together, joint agreement, failure to protect the marriage (boundaries)...

Needs alone don't explain the choice to participate in an affair. If that were the case, then I should have indulged in a few of my own. My own needs were certainly not being met a few years ago. And I didn't choose to have an affair for lack of opportunity, either.

It may sound like I'm being unforgiving of my husband. But that's not true. I am not tolerant of his actions, though. He made WRONG CHOICES. He is the first to admit that. A lot of things went into play to encourage him to make those choices. He had to dig within himself to uncover those vulnerabilities and strengthen them.



Short answer: I believe only God is capable of unconditional love. It is very UNhealthy to love unconditionally. In fact, I think it is humanly impossible. If someone were to subject you to constant horrendous abuse, any love you felt for them would die out. Healthy people need conditions on their love to protect themselves and others. We cannot allow people free reign to act however they like without consequence. There are natural consequences to actions.

Do a stellar Plan A, PB. He'll then have a favourable image of what his new marriage can be like. Then if your husband still chooses to indulge in the affair, write out your conditions to resume contact with him (Plan B letter). Seek help with this. It's tough stuff. And don't spare him the natural consequences to his actions. You'll do yourself and him a great disservice.

Yes, true love is and should be conditional.

Best of luck,
Natalie

Hi Holiday,

I love Ebay. When my Dad was living with us I would often be up with him a couple of times during the night. Often older people experience very vivid dreams of intense experinces they have had earlier in life. My Dad was an engineer in WW2, laying and defusing bombs throughout Europe, Normandy in particular. He saw horrific carnage and never really got over the guilt of surviving when so many died. I digress.

I have spent many a happy hour on EBay. When it is 2 a.m. and there is no one to talk to and you don't feel like reading. Hey you can shop. I started innocently enough - 1 set of lampwork beads and it slid downhill from there.

I crunch numbers for a living. I like it. It can be very satisfying particularly - predictive analysis. Being linear, I have never been crafty or good with my hands - until I started to bead. I really enjoy it. Ebay has created so many options for people who prefer to work from home. It was a brilliant concept.

Last month, I heard a radio item, where a BS sold her soon to be ex-husband's fancy sportcar - a lotus I believe for less than a $1 on Ebay.

Hope you enjoyed your day, I took my btother to a spinning class. We spent time with Mom and Dad. A good day....


Cheers,

PB.

Good Morning,

If you like, you can email me at **edit** and I can give you my ebay names (I sell under two different accounts for different items, handcrafted and retail).

I once saw a BS list his soon to be ex wife's wedding gown for a starting bid of $1.00 (with him in it modeling it for the pics. A studly biker dude.). I believe it may have sold for over $10,000.00. What people do to heal.

How are things going with your H? Did he make the move near his sister yet? When he talks with you, is it always business?

Great to hear you like to "spin". I tried that several time but my *ush hurt too much (need more quad strength I'm told).

Have a wonderful day,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

You are so right, we all heal in different ways. My brother made an interesting comment today.

"Emotional pain can be worst than physical pain - it is like you're heart has been in a train wreck."

While the WS all seem to act out the same types of responses and behaviours. The effect on the BS are very much the same too. Sleep disruption, weight loss, tears, confusion, anger, frustration, humiliation, stunned disbelief, depression.

I am finding with each week, life gets alittle easier. However, my productivity at work is way down, I'm spacey - I have locked my keys in the car twice in 3 weeks usually with the dog inside looking worried, lost a cell phone - and I stare off into space a whole lot.

Curious how our emotions really run the ship sometimes.

We went to a lovely film this evening. Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill. A quiet understated 60 minute documentary whioh looks at a relationship between a man and a flock of wild parrots. It was quite a sweet film, although I dozed off at one point. My brother and I have been staying up late talking every night. Sleep has been minimal.

I was down in San Francisco in March and walked around Telegraph Hill and saw these parrots fly.

If you decide to give spinning a second chance, the best plan is to stay out of the saddle for most of the first few classes - it eliminates the problem.

I am sticking with the program with my WS. No unnecessary contact, supportive but not overly accommodating etc.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Natalie,

Thanks again for responding. I have been thinking about your post.

I have not figured out how to move this thread to General Questions. I would like to keep it intact because it allows me to see how my perspective is gradually evolving.

I don't believe I am trying to make excuses for my husband's behaviour. I am trying to understand it. Ultimately, if our marriage is to recover, I have to be able to forgive him, which is much easier to accomplish if I understand his perspective. Even though we agree that it is a mistaken or fogged outlook.

I also have to understand that he has shown signs of a vulnerability to a certain type of tempation which could ultimately destroy our life together, assuming it hasn't already. Together we have to improve our awareness of this and understand it sufficiently well to set up adequate defenses. You were able to work together with your husband to accomplish this - so clearly it can be done.

A good measure of this will be his choice - as it should be. It is a tough go waiting to see what they ultimately will decide to do with their life when it is so intrinsicly tied to what happens in your life.

I always try to look at the upside. I have not had this much time to myself in 25 years. It is allowing me the space to sort out how I would like to see the rest of my life unfold. I am reviewing my own needs, priorities, goals and aspirations. The mc is also helping me understand where our marriage needs attention. I am hoping that the time apart will allow my husband to gain perspective too. It is easy to take things for granted.

I really like my husband. I know when you read this post it is not showing him in a favourable light - but he has the heart to make someone very happy - I am just hoping it will be me.

I am still mulling over the whole unconditional love issue.

I am very happy you are one of the lucky ones and your husband snapped out of it the moment he realized what he might lose. I wish you both a very happy life together.


Cheers,

PB

PB, I've set up your own thread with a link to this one over on GQII. I'm not very computer savvy, but I think it worked. (I clicked on url and cut and pasted). Weekends are slow, though, so you may have to reply to yourself come Monday to "bump" yourself up to the first page again. I hope you find the help you need there.

Regards,
Natalie

Very interesting Paradise. Would like to carry this thought over to your GQII thread.

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. That in itself is not enough to stop an A. It makes it frustrating for a BS who is thinking clearly to be able to see the problem but can't touch or fix it. Very frustrating.

That's why this place is good. We learn here what to focus on, how to concentrate and how to heal. The tendancy is to fix our spouses. Granted they sure need fixing but it is ourselves who need attention first. We need to get ourselves in a position of strength to deal with this crap. Most of us are not strong enough to deal with this stuff. Even the best of the best, have a hard time. So learning and applying the principals here provides good support.

Keep posting, ok?

Let me know if I can post your 'chicken story' on GQII. Think it maybe a 'refreshing' POV. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi Orchid,

Please you can have 'free range' with the chicken story.

You are spot on how these types of situations take strength.

My husband dropped by to access files available only on my computer tonight - he spent about an hour here. We are very polite and professional, but at the end of it - he kisses the dog good-by - nods at me and leaves - quite likely to go to her.

After he left, I took a look at his cell phone bill. I still handle all the bills. I have had it on my desk for probably a week unopened because I did not think I was up to more pain.

They may not be living together yet but they certainly are on the phone alot. It makes me physically sick when I think about this situation. I think if the OW were someone I did not know so well who practically lives next door. It would easier. It would also be alot easier if I did not have to stay in regular contact with my WS for business reasons. I find the days I have to see him - very tough. He always manages to withdraw something out of my love bank.

Earlier today, I was clearing out closets and drawers. I found a box of old pictures -just photo after photo of very happy funny moments. I still find part of me does not believe this is happening. It just can't be real.

What is worse, is that another part of me finds it is getting increasingly harder to imagine us going from our current estrangement and his all out love affair with someone else - back to where we are once again a happy couple. I keep giving myself pep talks that people do this. That I can do it too, if I hold on, stay calm, focused - do the program. There are nights were that is really tough to visualize. I really admire those of you who have accomplished it....

Cheers,

PB

PB,

I am here with you. I think if there is a chance for you and you H that you can be once again a happy couple. I hope the wind blows soon and pushes his fog away.

Keep up on yourself. Again girl, you are a writer!! Start writing. You are so full of wit!

He is still is not living with her, hmmm and why not? He's free to do so, so could you still be on his mind, alot? I think so.

Keep breathing my friend and have a better day,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

I find I have a really up and down kind of existence these days. Last night was a low point - so today I took your advice and focused on 'keeping up'. I got my hair done. I am not sure men comprehend how well having shiny hair can lift a woman's mood.

I had a nice chat with an interesting woman in the salon who had travelled Europe doing the chorography for operas for over 35 years. She is probably in her 70s now and still living her life fully - moment to moment.

The dog and I dined at the beach, chip wagon chips soaked in malt vinegar with root beer as a chaser. We walked for a long way along the shore... lisening to Diana Krall. Actually he barked at the waves and legged it after tennis balls - while I lisened to Diana Krall on my new ipod. My brother's has some great ideas some times - music to soothe your heart - what a thoughtful gift.

I now have no less than 7 books on my night stand dealing with betrayal, deceit and infidelity. I use to read Brian Greene at night - ( The Elegant Universe, The Fabric of the Cosmos). I'd think about how there are 11 dimensions, while we can only perceive 3 with time being the fourth and wonder just what was up with the other 7. I don't like the change in reading matter.

On a positive note, my current woggy mess has helped a friend's 17 year marriage stay together. Her husband was not meeting her emotional needs. He shows his love by buying her things when she wants his attention and physical affection - not the loot. However, a husband whose greatest faults are: that he works too hard to provide luxury; and really likes to clean the house alot started to look pretty good compared to mine. They are back together. He brings her wildflowers now that he stops to pick by the side of the road on the way home from work. She loves it....

Hope you had a great day!

Cheers,

PB

Ditto on my reading material. Funny, that has been my type of reading my whole life. Since high school I have always read about relationships. Should have been a counselor or something...instead became a "cosmo tologist"!

I left the hairhood approx 16 years ago after the birth of our daughter. I decided that "hair" was really counseling and the work followed me home. Then I went into the judicial system (started as a 911 dispatcher...talk about troubles) and retired at 40 and became an ebay queen.

Now with my new found friends at the gym (and mind you, I live in the Las Vegas area), I have a new set of clients in need of counseling. Seems my single, gay and straight friends want the "key" to a long term relationship through my experience...if they only knew.

Glad to hear you have been helpful to your friend. Reason/season. I think people come into our lives just for that purpose. I have been befriended recently by a young woman who was the "OW", my, now I hear the other side and it isn't pretty. How messed up she is.

How about your readings being alternating books?

Well, off to bed. Hope you have a great Wednesday,

holiday

Hi Paradise Blue,

I know your pain. It has now been 18 months past DD day. It does get better. My husbands emotional affair pretty much finished on DD day. However, I did find there was more contact past DD day via email and one phone call, despite being promised that he would never contact her again.

It is definitely a rollercoast of emotions. I did not believe it was happening to us. It was during a very difficult period in our lives when our teenage daughter was suicidal.At the time, I told him that it had been the worst year of our lives. I did not know he was having an emotional/internt affair when I made this statement. I was coping. He was not.

In amongst this he was having a mid life crisis. He had sold his business and had basically retired at the age of 46. I continued working in my own business. He had too much spare time on his hands. This OW was after our money as well. When they broke up because I discovered all these love letters, her comments to him were that she had only been interested in the money. Her true colors came out.

When I found out. I was extremely angry and threatened to fight him in court. I told him, his lover was not going to enjoy our hard earned money. I did not Plan A as is suggested here but rather let him know the reality of what his life would be like. I exposed to our teenage children . He came out of his fantasy pretty quickly.

You do not say if you have children and whether they know. You also say that you are contining business as usual. Perhaps, you should look at your options of doing something with the company and the risk of him losing it.

A change I made Post DD day was treating myself to the hairdressers once a week. It is very therapeutic.

Take one day at a time

Hi PB,

Hmmmm, I think IC has something.

PB, Would you be able to investigate in some "changes" in your business that would affect him seriously or at least make him think? A little "fly in the oinment", so to speak.

IC, sorry to hear you are here too. My, the numbers of members here just keeps on growing. Scares me terribly. I hope you are past all this saddness.

Hope you are both having a nice day,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

It sounds to me as though you have a wise and kind heart. People are attracted to kindness.

Often I think there is alot we see without seeing - for example, when you instantly like someone- there is information being processed on many levels beyond what we are conscious of.

It is especially true of those have spent many years lisening to others - the counselors in life - who develop intuitive understanding.

Funny how we all connect, you are sitting in the Nevada desert and thousands of miles north I am watching the rain fall on very green green grass.

Technology is incredible. I got an email yesterday from a friend in the Netherlands who I had contacted to see if she would like to go cycling with my brother. She picked up the email while staying at a WCS research facility in Gabon. Wild, an afternoon watching the gorillas in remote rainforest - then a quick update by satellite to a friend in Canada.

I've always thought the key to long term relationships of any kind was to treat people really well, to view them as your most important treasure in life. I still think that.

I believe the true meaure of person is how well they treat others. All the other standards really don't capture a person's essence. Money, position, talent even are ridiculous measures of worth.

I remember warning my husband - that at some point you become what you do. If you lie - you become a liar, if you cheat - you become dishonest. Our actions accumulate within us - they form a sort of internal structure that can sometimes cripple and maim the spirit within. I believe people who harm others ultimately do themselves greater damage.

Whereas being kind is just a wonderful gift you give to yourself really. A lady I seldom have chatted with, at the dog park this week gave my dog a tennis ball toy he had snagged from one of her dogs. It is two tennis balls attached on a bungee cord. He loves this thing. He has been carrying it around all week - proud as punch. Every day she see him with it she laughs and now I make a point to go over to her to chat and hopefully make her laugh some more.

Cheers

PB

Hi Innocence_Lost,

You're name is very poignant. Surviving infidelity is innocence lost. I am sorry you are here.

We have no children. It just didn't happen for us. I had thought seriously about adopting at one point, but my husband was not that keen on the idea.

I did not expose my husband's affair. It was 8 months before I broke down and told even my brother. Anyone who reads this site - knows that was a big mistake.

I think alot about him but I spend very little time thinking about her - when I do it is a weird mixture of heartfelt dislike and pity.

I don't know what her motivations are - I suspect they are a mixture of wants. She is very keyed in on material wealth. This gal - a lawyer by trade sues people as a hobby. I have never known her when she was not involved in some form of legal action against former employers, landlords, etc. She can be utterly charming but also alittle frightening. I think he is both smitten and scared all at once.

Dr. Harley believes relationships that are based on deceit and thoughtlessness die. I whole heartedly agree. The relationship my husband has with the OW is chock full of deceit on both sides. He has been dishonest with her. She has been dishonest with him.

Could I use financial/company considerations to sever their relationship? No. Essentially, if I lawyer up - it would just set the field for her to go to battle. I think I am better off not to engage and to wait it out.

The whole prospect of the three of us sitting in court some day is just so creepy I can't go to sleep on it. I have to come up with something more cheerful.

My husband has always been fixated on knowing where I am. If he didn't know precisely where I was - he would call around until he found out. My Dad used to sometimes shake his head when I got home and tell me the hounds were out. Recently, I went up to friend's cottage and stayed a day longer than I planned to. No cell connection. As soon as I was back in cell range, he called with the same old edge of panic in his voice all upset. " I didn't know where you were." I laughed and replied " Are you not in effect leaving me for someone else? Doesn't that mean you are not going to know where I am for the rest of my life?" There was a very long pause at the other end of the line. My husband is still there inside the pod person - occasionally I hear his voice.

Cheers,

PB.

Hi, Holiday,
I have been lurking and learning for quite a while. Although, I am more fortunate than others in outcome, the necessity to understand the dynamics of my husbands affair was still there. I could not stay with my husband unless I somewhat understood what had occurred. I am no longer sad, a far cry to how I was before. I would consider myself to be quite depressed for a considerable amount of time and I suppose I still am at times, especially when I am premenstrual. It is and was very painful to have read 3 months worth of love letters. I never thought my husband was capable of such exquiste and tender words, words he had never used on me.I never considered my husband a romantic. He was a no nonsense sort of person and here he was after only 4 phone calls and 4 emails, madly in love with a woman on the other side of the world sending her flowers, gifts and cards. They had declared their unconditional love for one another and were soul mates. Mind you, they had not exchanged photographs and had never met. Go figure.

Paradise, My husband had had a cancer scare. He was facing mortality issues as well as a daughter who was giving us ******. He told me that it was an escape for him. An escape where they were both planning to leave their spouse to grow old together.

His emotional affair lasted 9 months and during this time, he was quite indifferent and distant to me. At the time, i was so wrapt up in our daughter, other children, work, and committees I was on that although I was aware of his behaviour, I was in denial. I suspected, but could not find anything.

On DD day, I exposed to my mother, father, brother and children. Those letters were so powerful. They were communicating every day. My husband told her he was willing to give up everything for her. So, On DD day, I told him give up everything. I went to see our bank manager and froze all accounts and assets. It was very easy to do. Apparently, if there are marital problems and there is joint ownership, one party can request this until it is sorted out.

Hi IC,

Have you read Harley's books - Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs. This site also has excellent telephone MC services. I think with EAs it is easy to minimize them but I feel they are more dangerous than many isolated PAs of short durations.

Some dynamic in your marriage allowed this to happen. You can affair proof it. But I think it takes committed effort from both parties. Sit down with your husband and fill out the emotional needs questionaire. There is a marriage builders weekend seminar in October. It would be good to go if you can convince him.

There are many VETs on the General Questions II who have successfully dealt with this kind of situation. Read all the threads - there is excellent advise there.

Sad but true - you can't really believe anything he says with respect to the OW. It will take him a long time to regain his perspective.

Mine told me the EA only ocurred over the course of one summer. I think instead it starts from the first act of deceit. The first time she came on to him and he did not tell me about it. That was 7 years ago when we first met her, which means for almost 28% of our married life he has been in an inappropriate relationship with another woman, often in our home! It is very sobering.

Take care of you - you will need lots of time to heal. Spending alitte money on yourself is an excellent idea right now, thank God for beauty salons and shoe stores!.

Cheers,

PB

Ditto on the shoe stores!!!

Good Evening...

I wish I could have more words of wisdom. I am not sure how I would cope with my H having an EA verses a PA, yet he did have to get a bit emotionally involved to have the PA's.

I had never asked him to fill out the EN Questionare. I had made copies back in November of last year (around Dday) but never gave them to him. Just the other day I placed them in his bag for work (he works 24 hour shifts as a firefighter) and told him if he had a chance to read over it and fill it out if he liked. I never filled them out either. Well, today he told me it was too difficult to do. Time has past and he feels we have been working very hard on meeting most of each others needs. We read over them this afternoon and he might try doing it this week on a 72 hour shift.

He says he thinks the A's happened because he got "caught up in it all". The deceit, the secrets and what she was promising (same with the first, however the second I feel was a "fatal attraction" and scared him. Before I found out he wanted me to obtain a concealed weapons license.).

People do such stupid things under the "lust fog" (that's what I call it). Once the dope high wears off, they are looking at a relationship they were already in with even more adjustments to be made. They forget they are 50% of the equation.

Both of you continue to take care of yourselves.

PB, thank you for your compliment. I do pride myself in being kind to everyone I come into contact with which does frighten alot of people here in Vegas.

holiday

Hi Holiday,


Actually, I do believe the best wisdom I have heard yet was from you, something about just relaxing and trusting what will be - should be.

My husband dropped by with papers for me tonight. Sticking to Plan B I cleared out - so as to avoid contact and I left him my Plan B letter. I guess he did not see it because it is still here un-opened.

I was at a friend's having tea, her garden balcony overlooks the OW's door. I stood and watched my WS bounce across the courtyard carrying a quart of milk. I guess she needed milk. It seemed so domestic ... I honestly don't understand what this beautiful young woman wants with my completely bald very weather beaten wrinkled 52 year old husband. He must have told her we have a heck of alot more cash than we do. Oh well I guess everyone is entitled to a surprise!

We went on to join Mrs. J knitting class tonight. My girlfriend is having a baby - and her maternal urges are stirred up to the point she wants to be able to knit booties. Mrs. J was a tonic. She is an 82 Yugoslavian grandmother. When I asked her if she was married. She said not any more - he died in 1971 - "Thanks be to God" Apparently, he drank and misbehaved in general. I asked:
You have been alone since you were 48, hasn't it been lonely? She replied: Nope - it has been great. I sleep when I want to. I eat when I want to. No one bosses me around and I don't have to put up with any cranky panky.

Cranky panky is that not a great word for it. They get to panky and we get to be cranky. It so captures both sides of the experience. I won't be able to think of it any other way now...

Hope you had a good day!

Cheers,

PB

Hi Paradise,

It has been 18 months since my husbands emotional affair. He pretty much stopped it on DD day and has been a loving and attentive husband and father. I cannot complain.
Despite this, I need to heal and am nearly there. Part of that healing is the understanding of affairs and prevention. I completely trusted my husband. Harley says we should not blindly trust and this is what I did. I never thought him capable but I was wrong.
When I suspected, I would indirectly discuss people who had affairs and his response would be that there was no excuse for an affair. If you are not happy, you tell one another and if it cannot be resolved you then divorce. This was the thinking he conveyed to me. Unfortunatley, this was not reflected in his actions. It took him a long time to admit that he had had an affair. AS they had never met and obivously had not had sex, then there was no affair. He did not even understand that there could be an emotional affair.

I believe this is how it started with your husband. The line was crossed emotionally, but no physical contact. It was flirting, flattery and admiration which then eventually got out of hand. He did not believe there was anything untoward and was obviously enjoying the attention.

I have read much. I have not read Surviving an Affair. I am not from the States and this book is not easily available here but I will order it through Amazon.

I believe men's greatest need is admiration. My husband's OW was not younger nor prettier than me. How old is the OW. Has she previously been married? Does she have children.

There is a veteran called Mortarman on this board who offers great advice. . I have read numerous posts of his. His wife had left him for the OM and he turned the situation round. I hope he posts to you.

It is interesting that your husband still inquires about your whereabouts. Why is this?


Enjoy your weekend,

IL