Suzet,

Thank you. This is wonderful (and very much needed right now). I went to my support group last night and voiced my concerns. Everyone was very helpful and supportive. It's good to know that no matter what happens, I'll know there are people I can lean on. I think this will be critical for me in the upcoming months.

You're a gem ... thanks for being my friend.

Whisper

As I have matured thorugh my own process of recovery I have seen many wierd dynamics recur in recovering relationships. One that I have great sympathy for is where the BS pre marriage was neglectful or abusive, and seems to see the affair as an excuse to not change that behaviour. As if it has delivered them a trump card which will perpetually place their FWS on the back foot. A stick that will alway sbe used to beat WS if they demand too much in their opinion.

BUT as a BS I see that an affair trumps almost ANY lawful contribution to the marriage by the BS pre-A.

What can happen is that the BS can feel they need not recognise or change their spousal contributions because they didn;t have an affair.

In truth I belive affairs are almost unrelated to the marriges they spring from. WS from good marriages and bad marriages nearly all blame their marriage and their BS for almost forcing them into adultery.

I believe that this is nevertrue. Unless the BS held a gun and made teh WS Strip, teh A is ALWAYS the responsibility of teh WS without any ecuse.

HOWEVER getting over an affair is a perfect opportunity to change a lot of stuff that wasn't working before the affair. I find that WS and BS for the first time in years sometime s have each others undivided attention and a willingness for self-criticism.

Squid has transformed herself and abandoned behaviours that I previously had accepted as being unmovable parts of her personality. I have done the same in HER view.

Now I didn;t like it but I had to start changing MY behaviour, however unfair I felt it was. I think one spouse always has to take most of the initiative after an affair, and its not easy to predict which one it will be, FWS or BS.

Once I OWNED my own unacceptable behaviours, and changed them we started to discuss our marriage rather than just her affair.

It took a long time, and we still have work in progress but our behaviours and marriage are transformed now. And we were pretty screwed before and after Squids affair.

What am I saying ?

Probably that you need to unilaterally OWN you affair, take responsibility for it OUTSIDE teh problems in yoru marriage. Then you can address YOUR contributions to your old bad marriage independent of your affair.

I know you said previously that you did nothing wrong before your affair, but with respect this stinks of entitlement AND A failure to recognise that your H could not have developed entrenched poor behaviours without your complicity, perhaps through conflict avoidance.

The MAIN THING I had to change was my conflict avoidance. I never dreamed that disagreement and discussion it would lead to LESS arguments but it really does. We have to take responsibility for how much we allow our lives to be devalued by our spouse's negative behaviours. No choice is a choice.

I hope I have made some sense

All blessings

I have to agree with Bob. I thought I had done nothing wrong pre-A...but it turns out - do you know why H was neglecting me, escaping to video games, not coming out with the family? He confessed a few months into recovery that he had resentment for me - that I didn't do certain things for him.

You see I thought I was a great wife - I had his clothes washed, layed out for him, meals made, kids raised, house cleaned, brought him little gifts and cards, planned his schedule, did his finances, took his car to have the oil changed...but I was SO busy that I would fall asleep at the end of the night, and H would wake me with no affection for SF...and I would turn him down - for good reason, one I was exhausted from everything I was doing, and two - I wasn't turned on by being woken up with no affection - so to me those were good excuses.

Little did I know this was the ultimate rejection for my H, and I didn't even notice - I mean - I still gave him SF every week or two weeks, so what was I doing wrong? I was doing everything he couldnt live without me right? This hurt my H so much that he began to escape, began to neglect, began to not do much - why should he if I wouldn't do for him.

I never knew this about my H. Do I blame him for my neglect though? NOPE - although it seems he was doing this purposefully, I still don't blame him. Why? cause had I taken the time to really ask him what his needs were instead of doing what I thought I should do, I would have known. Had I learned to talk to him about my neglected feelings without coming to him and saying - YOU make me feel, or YOU did...and saying I am feeling instead, then maybe his defensive wall would not have come up and he would have heard my cries for help before my A started.

As nuts as it sounds, his behavior is just as much my fault as it is his fault. And then I blame him for my A? When I could have prevented it.

Now I am not saying that he has no blame in his reactions. His conflict avoiding and escape behaviors he does need to address, but I also have a responsibility to learn how to work around that with him to make him feel safer to be around me, to not want to escape, to not want to conflict avoid - and it's in my reactions. I used to react emotionally all the time - no wonder my H didn't want conflict - hard to to deal with someone who gets anger, tongue becomes a tool or starts crying.

My point here is - you need to figure out what you have done wrong, cause I am doubting you were a perfect wife before your A....in most cases, a neglectful husband is that way because something isn't right in the marriage (not always - some truly are a.r.s.e.s. but you get my point) Your husbands escape behiviors could be in reaction to something you aren't even aware you are doing, in the same way your A was a reaction to something your H might not have been aware he was doing.

Make the changes - keep searching - it's well worth it - keep looking at yourself Everytime you find yourself wandering over to the anger or blame to your H, turn it back to yourself and figure out what your blame and anger was in whatever is bothering you - keep up YOUR changes. H will react to your changes...as human nature is to react...and if your changes are good, his reactions will be too. Hang in there.

Whisper you mentioned that you have his computers right? Does he also have consoles such as xbox,gamecube, and ps2?

Have you also asked to have video game cd's,boxes and manuels?

What I would suggest that you do is remove/uninstall the games from the computer and by you have the game cd's he will not be able to install them without going out to the store and buying them again.

Video games have been and are being used by people so that they can escape real world. One of the reasons why video games are nice for people escaping the real world is for example people that are overweight they are treated differently and disrespected out in public but on a video game you don't know that they are overweight or what they look like so as a result you never get made fun of or treated disrespectully over the internet because people can't see that you are overweight thus eliminating it.

I can come up with more examples on why people use video games like this.

But ya if you can uninstall the games and get the game cd's boxes and manuels from him.

NL, doing that would be a major lovebuster unless it was POJAed first. As would YOU surrender your comfort blanket at the most stressful time of your life voluntarily ?

I agree with your theory but the execution of the resolution would need more thought here IMO.

Ya that would be a major love buster wouldn't it. hmmm. Do you have any idea on how to do an execution than that wouldn't be a love buster? If we could do that than I think that would greatly because you need to limit the ability to get the fix and with no games and the games are uninstalled it would be very difficult for him to get a fix from them.

Here I will just brain stom but ah what if she was to at the next time she meet him and ask him how he is doing coping without having the games and the computer and than see if him seeing the gaming cds manuels and boxes was a trigger for him and than asking him if there was something she could do to help him out with those triggers. (again this is just me brainstorming, just coming up with this in like 15 seconds, there is probably a love buster in what i just said.)

Whisper & H are pretty well off. As a gesture of rebellion H could just go to Game Zone and replace them all.

You can lock up the liquor cabinet, but an alcoholic an always find booze if they want to.

Its helping them see they don't WANT to that works long term.

Well see that is the thing don't we always say that it would be dumb to put a recovering alcoholic in front of beer?

Same thing. Ya he could replace them all but since he doesn't have a computer what would he do with them? He would have to go out and get another computer. I mean the whole point is to limit the availablity of it. Less there is of availablity the less likely it will start again.

Ya he could do those things but its all about risk in a sense right?

I agree that in long term helping them see they don't want to that works long term but that doesn't happend until withdrawal is by most part over.

NL, I won't argue with you. we will not agree. Whisper can decide if forcibly taking away all Hs computer equpment would work or not.

I don't know many people who would respond well to that approach, is all.

No I'm not saying forcefully although I kinda was suggesting that, what I was saying is would it help to remove some of the triggers of his addiction.

Sorry for the delayed response - was out of town for the long weekend.

Bob/Dorry - I had started another thread http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1 w/ a different subject line so that I could get feedback specific to SA. With this, you may not have read my posts that addresses some of your concerns & suggestions. In any case, I do very much believe that I was a huge factor in the downfall of our M, and nobody pointed a gun to my head to have an A. I am grossly aware of my faults and am working on them every day - on my own, through my support/accountability group, as well as MC.

The challenge that my H and I are up against (ie his addictions) is something far beyond our ability to comprehend, ignore, change or "fix" without external assistance. Through research and MC, we've learned that this is not merely emotional "escapism" but rather a long-term substance abuse (in this case pornography and online gaming) that has consumed my H over the years. Note: Even though he voluntarily dropped off his home PC's w/ me last week, he downloaded pornography on his work PC for the 1st time, the very next day. (He's never been w/o a home PC). He is now willing to sacrifice his job for it. He says he hates himself for doing so but doesn't know how to control it. He also says he's "hit bottom" and has contemplated suicide. I know this is going to sound harsh, but I don't know if I completely believe him. You know what they say - it takes one to know one? His words and actions don't sync up. He's going through the motions of attending MC sessions and skimming RecoverNation - only when I'm there to see. Words like "I don't think I'll look tonight" or "I'm doing this for you" don't inspire a lot of confidence. I guess only time will tell.

I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring your suggestions, but I also don't think you understand the full ramifications of our sitch ... and (frankly) neither did we until recently.

NoLiving - While I agree with you that removing the triggers and objects of the addiction helps tremendously, I must agree w/ Bob that an addict can always find ways unless the addiction is removed completely. My H's sitch that I described in my response to Dorry & Bob is a perfect example.

What I'm learning is that unlike other addictions that have fairly immediate side-effects, a long-term SA is exceedingly hard to identify & break. When the addict has led a secret life for so long, his value systems become completely distorted. At some point, they can't distinguish the difference between fantasy v. reality and right v. wrong. They often cross over throughout the day without thought or remorse because the habit has become a behavior and the "wrong" had become "right". They also become so adept in hiding their secret lives that no one (including themselves) is usually aware of what's truly happening or the damage that's been done until it's too late.

Again, we're just skimming the surface. I'm frantically researching what it takes to support him through this trying time, all the while hoping that he truly wants to recover. For me, the hardest thing is the lack of control, as the only way that an addict can recover is if he/she is willing and committed to recovery. I've learned that nothing, absolutely nothing, can motivate, force or persuade an addict otherwise. This is why I'm so scared.

I agree that an addict will find ways but the question than becomes is how far will they go to get th fix. The more difficult it is for someone to get the fix the less likely they are to continue it. It's really is how far are they willing to go to get the fix. The more barriers you put into the place the harder it will be and he may eventually give up but it is all dependent on how far they will go. Him having less triggers will make withdrawal easier to go through.

But nothing is ever 100%.

But than again my suggestion may very well be a big love buster.

I agree with you, NL. Just like breaking away from an A, it's certainly much easier if the OP moves away, gets another job, or just falls off the face of the earth. No doubt about it. I don't know if I would LB and take things away without his agreement/involvement, as I do believe that will position me as the critical parent and him as the rebellious child, which never works. At this point, he has (for most part) removed most of the triggers himself. But, just as Bob said it before, he can always get access to it if he wants it bad enough. Again, I think only time will tell if HE wants to give it up.

Thanks,

Whisper... I don't come back here very often, but as a FWW with a somewhat similar sitch - that being H who is reverting back to old habits and the old "rut" - I can relate. Like many others, I have no advice other than what people like smur, bob pure, dorry, and suzet have provided.

Whisper, thanks for starting the thread, and bob, smur, suzet, dorry, and others, thanks for posting.

All -

I've fantastic news! My H has agreed to go to group therapy! I don't know what happened, but we went to MC today. Half-way through, the therapist sends me out of the room. When I was admitted back nearly 30 minutes later, my H announced that he's agreed to attend group therapy to get help with his addictions! I couldn't believe it! I'm still in shock but am ecstatic! For the first time, he's truly admitted that he's got a problem and is willing to get help ... real help for it! I don't want to get my hopes up, but too late. My hopes are waaaaay up!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, prayers and well-wishes. I know this, too, will be a process and that things like this will still take time, and I still need to seriously work on myself; but, boy, I can't begin to tell you how excited I am about all of this!!!

Whisper
That IS great news, but remember how hard it was for YOU to give up your affair at the peak of its 'pleasure' for you ?

How you would commit to quit one day and swear you could never live without it the next day ? (perhaps - I use MOST FWS as my example here)

Its my guess it won't be easy for your H to face these addictions. For on ething in porn, work and onlin ethere is no ned to face a wife who shattered his heart NOR the need to face a level of husbandry which may not be all it should.

Its a brual thing for a BS to have to admit that pre- A behaviours may have been suspect or poor because it feels like we are taking blame or responsibilty for our spouses affair.

Whisper PLEASE make sure that through this YOU do not even when angry blane your H for your affair. Any sniff of justification from you will push him away, maybe back into his diversions.

YOU felt you had a poor marrige, you chose an affair to deal with it. Your H probably felt he had a poor marriage, he chose diversions which became addictions.

You cannot expect yoru H to take responsibility for his addictions and his recvery from them if you do not do the same for your affair IMO.

GREAT news though and I pray your H finds peace through this therapy, and you two can truly start to build a fantastic new marriage !

that is great news Whisp

It means your husband admits his addictions and has gotten the courage to admit he needs help with them - make sure you reward him for his courage to do this and support him as I am sure this is VERY scary for him, just like doing the right thing for you and returning to your marriage was VERY scary for you!

Dorry,

"this is VERY scary for him"

>Couldn't agree w/ you more. He said these exact words yesterday as we were driving away from MC. I remember the 1st time I went to group counseling and had to admit that I was having an affair to a bunch of strangers. I got so dizzy and hot and started hyperventilating - thought I was going to pass out. This is coming from someone who gives executive presentations and lectures every day! I promise to support him in every way I can, and I won't push the issue. The MC made it clear yesterday - this is HIS recovery, not "ours." In fact, she told me to stay completely out of it and don't even bring it up unless he wants to.

Bob - "You cannot expect yoru H to take responsibility for his addictions and his recvery from them if you do not do the same for your affair IMO."

>I'm not sure why you keep harping on this. I'm pretty certain you've read most of my posts throughout my A and recovery to date. With this, you know I've never once insinuated that I was/am a perfect wife nor do I blame my H for my A. If, for some reason, this is your personal experience with Squid's A, then I'm sorry that you've had to endure it, but please don't assume that every FWS blames their BS or justifies their actions. IMHO, adding undo guilt only stifles recovery, not promote it.

As I said before, nobody pointed a gun to my head to have an A. For the same token, I will not be blamed for my H's addictions that pre-existed me. (It turns out that his addictions were well-entrenched before I ever came along.)

I know there is a lot of sympathy for BS's here (being that it's a MB website for A-broken marriages). With that said, IMO BS's, too, should be held accountable for their behaviors and actions that contributed to the downfall of his/her M. In my H's case, nobody held a gun to his head to make him choose porn or computer games over his spouse either.

"Its a brual thing for a BS to have to admit that pre- A behaviours may have been suspect or poor because it feels like we are taking blame or responsibilty for our spouses affair."

Sorry, perhaps I'm a bit edgy with how things have turned out and wasn't expecting additional guilt to be piled on from what I've been able to dig myself out of. I know it's easy to point the finger at the adultress who had the A, but to excuse and "baby" the BS's wrongful activities is like saying it just takes 1 to tango. IMO, pornography addiction is no less destructive to a marriage than a PA/EA - both are personal choices, and both destroy intimacy, trust & self-esteem.

IMO, both spouses must be held accountable for how their actions have contributed to the marital downfall. (period) I don't believe that an A excuses nor justifies destructive behaviors that pre or post-dates the A. Again, these are just my opinions. Sorry, if I seem edgy.

Whisper
You have effectively cited your Hs pre affair behaviour as a justification for your affair in previous posts. Such is entitlement and is typically not accurate in marriages either. You do the same again in this post.

I 'harp on' because such entitlement in my own experience and in so many situations I have seen on here residual blaming of spouse for affairs is highly counterproductive to recovery.

Please do a search on 'owning your affair' by a FWS called Kyellow.

I do seem to be becoming the scourge of entitled FWS, I should go back to not posting to them, but I am always compelled by a still small voice to point out obvious entitled behaviour as it is SO very unhelpful to recovery. But usually the folk displaying such behaviour deny angrily that they are.

Please do not answer this question publicly on her, but internally : did your H cause your affair ?

I will not post to you again.

All blessings to you and your BH.

It's unfortunate that I won't be hearing from you, Bob. However, I think it's very disconcerting to know that you'd say that I feel some sense of "entitlement" yet you feel it's completely OK that a BS is entitled to his/her actions, regardless what they may be.

"You have effectively cited your Hs pre affair behaviour as a justification for your affair in previous posts."

>Is it not possible that b/c you are still living with the ghosts of Squid's A and thus "reading" more than what's intended on FWS's posts? I know it's hard to be unbiased when you're permanently scarred by Squid's A, but isn't condemning and flinging guilt on FWS's somewhat counterproductive as well?

If you've not done so already, I strongly encourage you to read RecoverNation. While the site is geared toward SA, it taught me a lot about myself and my behaviors as a WW. But, more importantly, it's teaching me how to become whole again ...

"the first critical step in recovery: actively committing to change. What's next? The second step is to let go of the shame that you may feel for your past/current behaviors. Trying to make a permanent recovery from addiction while holding on to shame is like trying to climb Mount Everest with an elephant strapped to your back--it can't be done. The guilt and shame you may feel for past behaviors must now be replaced with pride for the decisions you are making today, and for those you will make in the future."

Thank you for your well wishes, and I hope you'll post again. Best of luck to you & Squid as well.