Now that I'm back, my H is regressing back to his same, old self. Many have asked why I decided to turn around. I have to the say the #1 reason was because I saw all these wonderful, amazing changes that my H was making to improve himself. Initially, I thought he was making them just to lure me back, but, after a while, I truly felt that he was making those changes for himself. That's when he really turned my head.

Well, now that it's been 3 months since R, I see more and more of the old habits that drove me away in the first place. He's back to his computer games. He's back to lying about his pornography usage and addiction. He's back to obsessing about his job and spending crazy hours on his work - night and day. He's regressed back to being his negative, impatient, anti-social self that just wants to stay at home and do nothing. He's gained back nearly 20 pounds in 3 months. He’s not asked me on a date for nearly 6 weeks, and everything we've done, it’s like pulling teeth. Because he’s so consumed by his job, I've had to take care of everything (again) ... housekeeping (now for 2 houses), taking care of the dog, errands, selling his house, renting out my townhouse, designing the new condo and all related financing. (BTW - I also have a full-time executive job.) And, even though he says he'd be happy to go to IC, he always has an excuse of why he won't call to schedule the appointment. And, if I scheduled the appointment, he gets upset and finds an excuse of why not to go.

I just don't know what to do! In a way, I feel cheated! This is NOT what I came back for! Granted, many will probably throw my A back in my face and say I’m getting what I dished out. OK, if all there is in a M is keeping score versus moving forward, then count me out! I lived 8 out of 12 years of my M like a nun and a doormat, and I refuse to spend another moment feeling that way! I know what I did was exceedingly wrong, but I also believe there’s more to life than being neglected and taken for granted.

As an example of what transpired this week ... my H went with a couple of friends (female) to Indianapolis for a 5-day weekend. He asked me to drive up for the weekend. We had a wonderful time together Saturday. At the end of the night, we had a couple of martinis, made out in a dark corner of the martini bar and stumbled like college kids back to our hotel. When I curled up in bed and waited for him, he turned on all the lights, opened up his computer and started responding to his work email. I got so tired of waiting, I fell asleep. The next day, we awoke, and I nudged him about the night prior and asked if he was still "using" porn. He became defensive and belligerent. Said that he felt overwhelmed by all the MB stuff and our recovery and don't want to work on us any more. I thought "OK, after all that we've gone through, this is how it's going to end."

After we returned home, he came around and apologized for his behavior. He admitted that he didn't mean what he said and that he really does want to work on our M. He also suggested that we sit down on a weekly basis and write down what improvements we individually will make for the following week to better our M and then we'll review our progress. I thought it was a great idea. Then, the work week began. Nada. No list. No discussions. Just back to working around the clock, complaining incessantly about his job and not giving me the time of day …

He had a hard day at work on Monday. I took him to his favorite restaurant, let him vent on me for 3 straight hours, tried to cheer him up. I stayed overnight to comfort him (we’re still separated). He got up at midnight and worked until dawn.

It’s now Wed. I’ve not seen him since Mon, so I picked him up for lunch. He spent 30 minutes with me, and I dropped him off. He called me at 5 p.m. Says he’s too tired and just wants to go home and go to bed. Knowing I have group therapy on Thursday nights (tomorrow night), we won’t see each other until Friday night, when we’re scheduled to have dinner with another couple.

Somebody, PLEASE tell me what to do here!!! I know he’s not trying to punish me because these are the exact, same things he did well before the A! I’m now so afraid of moving back in together b/c then I’ll be “stuck” again. I just want back the H that I saw (or thought I saw) for the past 1.5 years! I was so excited in thinking that for the first time we BOTH actually want to work on our M, but I guess I’m wrong. If my A doesn’t motivate us to change our old ways, what will??? I’m so lost … and so very, very sad.

*Note: I’ve been reluctant to post this b/c I didn’t want to discourage any WS who is looking for hope. But, I feel like I’m at the end of my rope, and it’s already frayed.

Please help.

Whisper,

I wish I had some wise advice for you. As you know I am not anywhere near recovery but I just wanted you to know I am thinking about you and will pray for you and your H tonite.

You have been very helpful to me in your posts in understanding the WS side and it means alot to me. May god be with you both and help you through this time ... (((((hugzzzz))))))

I don't have much advice but I wanted to offer some support. Your perspective as a FWS has been valuable here on the board. I am sorry your recovery is difficult but at least now you have some tools to help deal with it. These behaviors that are creeping in need to be dealt with. Deal with the issues...what are you doing to enable? You said you felt burdened by all you are doing and he is not doing he is share. Stop. What are your boundaries? If you are still separated take this opportunity. Don't let this slide and accept it as punishment for A, sure that needs to be addressed but it doesn't mean you don't have legitimate concerns.

Whisper,

We all have a tendency to throw out cliches with aplomb(usually against the opposite sex), but perhaps you are dealing with a male that can not or will not communicate effectively. By the tone and structure of your post you are obviously a very intelligent and polished female. Has he ever made even an obtuse reference to your job and that it may feed a subconcious insecurity? We guys can be pretty touchy about things that don't even cross the female mind. If that is the case, an argument can be made that the sexual, work and pornography issues is a diversion for his bruised psyche.

Maybe just some psychobabble but an idea that came to me.

My hopes and prayers go with you in your attempt to save your M.

Thank you both, Hurting and Confused.

Question - How does one "deal with the issues"? When I bring up topics like porn and gaming addictions, he gets defensive or he simply lies about it. And, I do realize that I may be enabling these behaviors, but I guess I'm just trying to overcompensate for what I've done and am hoping that these issues will work themselves out in time. He did just start his new job 4 months ago. I'm hoping that it'll settle down after a while. Should I just be patient?

While I know what my boundaries are, he just really doesn't want to hear it. He'll say things like "if I don't change immediately, then you'll just run off with some other guy" - even though I NEVER, EVER made such a threat since R.

Also, what do I do when he just lets his share of responsibilities fall? For example, he hired a realtor to sell our house based on the 1st realtor post card he received in the mail. Unfortunately, this is the 1st house this realtor has ever listed, so he doesn't know what to do. If we don't have this house sold by end of October and have my townhouse rented out, we'll be stuck with 3 mortgages! Also, he stopped paying his bills. If they run late, our credit will suffer. What do I do in this situation?

I guess these are the questions I should've asked well before my A, but I just didn't see the forest for the trees.

Cymanca,

I think you have a very good insight into my H's psyche here. If your theory is, indeed, accurate, what's the solution? Note: My H is also a highly compensated executive. Although he's struggled with weight issues, he's still handsome, witty and exceedingly charismatic. I know he wrestled with self esteem issues and situational depression (when he lost his job 4 years ago), but he's since recovered and seems to be quite confident. How does one regain self confidence if he's not willing to see an IC nor read/apply self-help books?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.

Here are my suggestions:

1. U read His Needs/Her Needs, then leave the book lying around. U both need to know how to do normal communication with the opposite gender. C/b an eye opener.

2. U read Love must be tough by Dr. James Dobosn.

re: Seems like he knows how to pull your strings. In his mind as long as he apologizes, he can do it again with a clean slate.

You need to identify your boundaries and enforce them. With both of you in high level type jobs, c/b part of your personalities spilling over into your R.

Call Steve for some advise.

JMHO,
L.

Whisper,

I am sorry but I just don't know how you can make anyone get therapy if they don't want to. If I did, do you think I would be on this site right now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I am also a BIG Dr James Dobson fan and would echo Orchid's remarks

Whisper - I have no solid advice. But I have incredible grattitude. You represent to me the hope that all of us BSs have!

You have chosen to go home. My prayer is "God, please bring her home". You show us that it happens. I praise God for you!!! I praise God that you are willing to share here, candidly - your life and struggles.

I will pray that your H has a serious wake-up call. If only my WW had taken a 2x4 to my head before spiritually divorcing me. She did not. She cried - she made statements - but I was too dense. I needed a 2x4.

What can your 2x4 be for him? Is he a follower of Christ?
(just thinking you might be able to give him some data about porn that will get him thinking.)

Hey all - what is her 2x4???

My prayers for you, Whisper.

Thank you for providing hope.

far

Hi, whisper.

I have a question for you. How often do you find you 'need' your husband. I don't mean sex, I mean how often are you a bit dependent on him?

Gimble

(((Whisper)))

I'm sorry to hear about your current circumstances. You have made such wonderful progress since you’ve started posting here and you're of so much help to others too. You deserve the best and I really hope you and your H will be able to resolve this situation.

I don't have any advice for you, but I just want you to know that I'm thinking of you and will keep you and your H in my prayers… May God bless you and give you strength, hope, courage and wisdom during this difficult time.

Take care,
Suzet

Oh Whisper - its almost your worst fear realised and I am sorry.

Your husband's addictions are marriage problems that predate your affair. It is to your credit that you will not accept such disrspectful husbandry as a reckoning on your affair. It is clear that yoru affair is only one of the things you two need to resolve to grow your marriage back to health.

From my viewpoint as a recovering BS I see many of BOTH Squids an my behaviours as having 'manured' the soil which allowed the poisonous weed of an affair to grow. Sure, Squid planted it and grew it but our pre-A behaviours surely both manured the soil.

Our recovery has depended on us both identifying how we were not contributing properly to our marriage and setting it right, not just dealing with Squids affair. I would go so far as to say that RECOVERY has much more to do with fixing what was wrong before the affair, while HEALING is getting over the consequences of the affair.

In my own situation and in almost every other I have read, recovery starts with ONE spouse getting a grip and investing unequally in fixing their contribution to their marriage.

In my case this started with me investing in ME: realising my OWN self worth and remaking myself as worthy individual, independent of my roles as husband, father, friened , employee etc etc.

Whisper, that might be harder for you, because you had an affair and I have seen in Squid and in your posts how ashamed and remorseful that makes you.

But there is much to admire in you. If me, a stranger can see that, it is your DUTY to be able to do that yourself. I se seeds of self worth in your posts anyway which is again to your credit.

You may, like me, arrive at a place where you WANT your H in a recovered marriage but you don't NEED that in order to function.

This removed a while shroud of fear and needfulness from my communication with Squid.

I was able to negotiate our recovery with squid without overly fearing a negative outcome. It has worked wonderfully for both of us.

I am not advocating you become arrogant or demanding Whisper. Just that you realise your own self worth and your existence as an independent person away from your marriage.

Then you may have confidence in saying :

" H I love you and I want to recover a great marriage with you. Lets discuss about what I need to do to help you heal from my affair AND to improve on my pre-A contribution to our marriage and your life.

Then we can discuss how you feel about YOUR actions towards your healing from my affair and your contributions to our marriage.

It was MY affair, and inexusable. Our unulfilling marriage though was both our responsibility, so you agree ?

I can't force you to build a wonderful marriage with me but i want to with all my heart. Lets discuss the hard stuff".

Starts with you losing your fear and shame Whisper. You can't change your H, you can only inspire him to change.

I hope that makes some sense.

All blessings

Whisper28 – Can I be a “thorn in your side for a minute?” It’s not to beat up on you or to be cruel, but to hopefully get you to think about a some things.

An affair of 1.5 years and 4-5 months into recovery. I would have thought that you would have reached “recovered” a couple of months ago.

With respect to the quotation, you don’t have to make “such a threat since R.” You already made that threat and carried it out (the affair), so your husband KNOWS that his statement is true. ONLY you can change the “truth” of that statement and only by consistent behavior OVER time, so that when your marriage reaches “recovered” your new truth will be that you will never engage in adultery again, no matter what the marital circumstances might be (of course they’ll be much better by then anyway).

Recovery takes an AVERAGE of TWO years, not a few months. Recovery is very much like a “Roller Coaster” with ups and downs and twists and turns. Recovery often is described as “two steps forward and one step backward” as we seek to recover from the devastation of infidelity. You BOTH need to be committed to the long haul, to the patience and fortitude needed to make it through the process.

Now, lest you think I am going to let your husband “off the hook,” let me assure you that I am not.

Your husband is an executive. Good. That gives us some “common ground” for communication. Whisper, recovering your marriage is going to be all about personal changes for BOTH of you, and your husband is NOT excluded. He is commanded by God to love you, while you are commanded to respect and obey him so long as he is leading the family in obedience to God. It is the God-commanded responsibility to HUSBANDS to see to it that there is love in their marriages. If that upsets your husband, all I can say is that it is God’s command, not mine. One of the “joys” of being male, if he wants to look at it that way.

So, where does that leave us? You need to understand that he’s not likely to respond to emotional appeals at this point. What you need to do is to talk to him LOGICALLY.

He is an executive. He knows that the ONLY way to affect change is to MAKE change. The only way to get “answers” when you don’t already have the answers is to seek out experts in the field and get them to teach you. ASSUMING that you both WANT to remain married, then it is time to “call in the experts.” Change in both of you is necessary. Neither of you can continue doing things the same old way and expect a different result (a better, newer, more loving, marriage).

Whisper, right now your husband is running, hiding and procrastinating in the things that give him easy pleasure and peace. Some things that he is “used to doing,” like Pornography, can kill a marriage even without the added problem of infidelity. So that habit is going to have to be replaced with something that is beneficial, not harmful, to the marriage. Right now he is probably “justifying” pornographic usage along the lines of he is “entitled” to it since you were “entitled” to have an affair….it’s a “revenge” sort of thing. CHANGE is hard and disrupting until it becomes the “new habit.” So with just the two of you, WHY would there be any reason to do things differently? The reason is because there WAS an affair as a result of doing the “same old, same old” things and that you have BOTH decided, for whatever individual reasons, that you want to remain married and attempt to resurrect your marriage. It is time for Joint Marital Counseling. It is time for an “outside expert” to guide you and hold you both accountable for making needed changes that will benefit you individually and in your marriage to each other.

So how about talking with your husband about these things? Counseling is NOT optional. It is mandatory. Commitment to positive personal change is not optional, it is mandatory for the self and for the marriage. Commitment to TIME, years if needed, is not optional, it is mandatory. Patience is not optional, it is mandatory. Love, sacrificial love, from a posture of “servant-hood” toward each other is not optional, it is mandatory.

There are many things you two can do help your marriage, but BEGIN with Joint Marital Counseling with a trained counselor who is committed to saving marriages.

God bless.

Hi...I kind of see it as the way I (the BS) am dealing with my WH in a way. He refuses to go to counseling, my counselor said that even if he won't go, he really is in counseling because I am in counseling. He described it as a "mobile" effect. If you pull on one part of the mobile, all the parts move with it.

So, as I change, my H isn't able to relate to me in the same way any more. But as the mobile does, that one piece that got pulled is going to try to pull also to bring back the 'balance' but the balance was unhealthy.

I agree, this sounds like more boundary work. Its the hardest thing but take it one day or even one hour at a time.

here's a link to help explain boundaries. I read it over and over to 'get' the idea that I can do what I need to do and I can let go of the outcome (decisions of my spouse)

http://www.joy2meu.com/Personal_Boundaries.htm

Hi Whisp,

So sorry you are at this point. I know it's so tough. 3 months into recovery with H with SO many positive changes...and my H started to regress too, and by 4 months he pulled away, and by 6 months he had an A and left....and by 7 months we started recovery again.

It's so tough as the WS, as you want to enforce boundaries, but at the same time, you are the WS, and enforcing boundaries can be taken as a selfish WS still in the fog....it's such a hard balance, and I am sure you are feeling that balance. The worst is the fear, the fear in yourself, not him.

You see things going back to the way they were and you don't yet trust yourself and all the changes you made and are terrified you will end up resentful again, entitlistic again and eventually wayward again, and so your H's actions terrify you as you are not ready for this test!

I am a firm believer changes don't take place very fast, and that we are all bound to fail along the way - God made us that way. Could it be that your H is going through some rough times and feeling like not trying right now? I know there are alot of BS's here that hit that point, where they are sick of trying and just need a breather.

How is your communication going? Are you still communicating with him like you used to? Could it be you are using old communication techniques that are making him react impatient? Have you voiced your needs. Obviously his job coming before everything else is not what you want...you want your family (you and him) to come first - does he really know this? Have you reminded him in a non LB way of this need?

I wonder if the porn, games, obsessing with his job, etc coming back now is because he has let himself finally feel what he has been avoiding feeling for awhile. He has been so much in Plan A or PLan B with you, maybe he smothered those feelings, as what he is doing sounds like he is escaping and not properly handling his feelings.

It sucks as when someone is doing that - there isn't much you can do - they have to be willing to get help - like cymanca said - you can't force someone to get help.

I know you feel cheated, and I am in no way going to say that you should go back to a marriage like this, but reality is Whisper - its been 3months, and it's been a GOOD 3 months....BS's here warn that there are lulls at 6 months, 1 year things like that - that it is a constant uphill battle for up to two years or more. You need to have some patience. It could be H is scared that you haven't really changed...

I believe that one person should take leadership (if not both) and start the changes...eventually the other sees the changes, and starts to change too. The other also changes without realizing they are too because of new interactions with the one who is changing. Learn new skills, communications skills, and hang in there - it's not a fast road. As much as we all want our husbands to change overnight - its not gonna happen.

My H hasn't changed much at all yet...but I do see small changes and I keep learning new ways to work with his personality, new changes I keep making, and every day due to my changes, things change for him....he has less escapes now, less negativity - because he sees the changes in me, and I am not giving him reasons to escape. My communication sucked and put up walls around him all the time....I changed and those walls don't come up.

I know how terrifying it is right now Whisp - that you are terrified things wont change....that things will suck forever....it's been 3 months - hang in there sweety...recovery has to be at his speed and on his terms. It sucks for the WS, as we are all gung ho, but give him some time to work out his feelings...recovery isn't probably what he imagined it would be either, and its scaring him, and I bet he's wondering if it's worth the risk...

(((HUGS))))

Whisper, reading this thread so far reminded me of a weeks programing on Family Life today about sexual addiction and false intimacy. Check out the links.
false intimacy book False Intimacy by Harry Schaumberg

Thank you all for responding so quickly – Don’t know what I’d do if I’ve never found you!!!


Orchid – We both read HNHN when I was still in my A. I reread it post-A with my “new set of eyes.” I’ve since completed every MB questionnaire and have been asking my H to do the same. He’s been promising to do so for weeks. Again, he promised to have them completed by Sunday. I guess I’m somewhat pessimistic about it, but we’ll see.

“Seems like he knows how to pull your strings. In his mind as long as he apologizes, he can do it again with a clean slate.”

>This has been the case for years. We would fight. He would “be good” for a couple of weeks then be back to his old ways. For nearly 2 years pre-A, I simply gave up fighting altogether and just relegated myself to living like this … until I finally walked out.

The challenge w/ “identifying my boundaries” is he’d get defensive – stating that he’s just too busy w/ work. How do you ID your boundaries and not LB?


Cymanca – I will get Dobson’s book. I’ve been reading so many self-help books lately that I’m just trying to focus on a couple – HNHN & Sense Ability. HNHN helps me understand and work on our M while Sense Ability helps me understand and work on me (i.e. anger, control, depression, etc.)


FAR – Thank you, but I don’t feel I deserve your compliments. This is also the reason why I’ve not posted as frequently in the last month or so. I just don’t feel like I’m one to give any M advice when my own M is so shaky. I was hoping that the A would be the 2X4 wake-up call for both of us. I guess it’s not enough??


Gimble – “How often do you find you 'need' your husband.”

>Pre-A, I used to be very dependent and needy. I “needed” him or somebody with me all the time. Now having lived on my own for a while and discovered new friends and hobbies, I find I don’t really need him per se, but rather I would like to see and be with him. Plus, a big part of me feels that we can’t truly work on our M if we’re apart. And, when we’re together, it’s primarily focused on running errands, discussing work problems versus going out & having fun like we were the 1st month of recovery.

What happens lately is we’d plan on doing something – even if it’s just to have dinner or “hang out.” But, at the last minute, he would tell me he’s too tired or busy w/ work. In fact, this exact thing happened last night. He said he just wants to sleep, although he called me at 10:30 to let me know he’s been on the phone w/ his friends & family since 8.


Suzet – I teared up when I saw your & Bob’s response this morning. I feel like after all that you two have done to help me through my A, I still can’t get it together. I feel like such a failure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your continued friendship and support.


BobPure – I hate to admit this, but when I read your post the other day on how you feel like you’ve won, I was just green with envy. While I’m so happy for you and Squid, I can’t help but think about how my H doesn’t see what strides we’ve made and how good things could be if we’re BOTH willing to work at it.

“In my own situation and in almost every other I have read, recovery starts with ONE spouse getting a grip and investing unequally in fixing their contribution to their marriage.”

> I know I’m no peach to live with either, but I feel like I’m always the only one doing everything and getting nothing in return. Now, I’m just discouraged, resentful and pessimistic. I know our long & ugly history does’t help. If I could only erase all the bad memories, I wouldn’t be telling myself … “well, this is just the same old, garbage.” Or “He’s never going to change.”

“Lets discuss about what I need to do to help you heal from my affair AND to improve on my pre-A contribution to our marriage and your life.”

>I agree with this whole-heartedly. The hard part is I just can’t figure out in what ways did my A wound my H. B/c he refuses to talk about it and keeps telling me that he’s OK and has moved past the A, I don’t know what I need to do to help him heal. I’ve read many of your posts, and they’ve helped me to understand how my H may be feeling/thinking, but I feel like I’m still shooting in the dark. For example, in one of your earlier posts, you said you had wished Squid would just show some sign of remorse. Well, I do. I verbally apologize for my actions all the time. Maybe something that would help me is to know exactly how a BS feels and thinks once a WS truly comes back. Is it fear? Relief? Happiness? Excitement? Vengefulness? Arrogance? Self-righteousness? Entitlement?

“You can't change your H, you can only inspire him to change.”

>Does inspiring him to change simply mean that I should just keep on improving even though I don’t see any responses? If so, how long should I wait? Two years or longer like what everyone says? I’ve already endured this for so many years, I don’t think I can do it for 2 more years! What can/should I really expect??


FH – My H went to MC w/ me once and saw the same MC on his own once. Since then, he’s found all kinds of excuses of why he can’t call nor go, even if I scheduled the appointment. He, again, told me that he will schedule an appointment this week, so I guess I’ll just have to wait and see … and hope that it does happen. BTW – I’ve been seeing the same MC for 4+ months now. She’s amazing! She’s helped me make a decision, put an end to the A, face my fears, rebuild my self esteem and is now supporting me through recovery to include changing my bad habits and behaviors – which there are too many to count, so I’m working on a few at a time. Again, I’m just hoping that he’ll call her.


WAG - Thank you. Great article. I will re-read it to make sure everything sinks in. I wasn’t very good at communicating my boundaries before. In the past, I would let them slide and let my H’s needs come before mine b/c I thought that was the “loving” thing to do. I allowed myself to become a doormat. Question – when do our “boudaries” become “selfish needs”? And, if my needs are indeed healthy “boundaries,” how do I communicate them without LBing?


Dorry – I was hoping I’d hear from you. And, WOW! Did your words hit home!

“You see things going back to the way they were and you don't yet trust yourself and all the changes you made and are terrified you will end up resentful again, entitlistic again and eventually wayward again, and so your H's actions terrify you as you are not ready for this test!”

>The only change I would make to the above statement is that I was so conflicted and in so much pain when I was in the A that I can’t even bring myself to think of possibly engaging in another. With this, my greatest fear is for my H and me to return to the way things were … with my losing my sense of self, having no self esteem, feeling like a doormat with no hope for a happy future. I just can’t live like that any more.

“Could it be that your H is going through some rough times and feeling like not trying right now? I know there are alot of BS's here that hit that point, where they are sick of trying and just need a breather.”

>Very possible. What should I do if this is the case? Just wait and hope?

“you want your family (you and him) to come first - does he really know this? Have you reminded him in a non LB way of this need?”

>I guess I don’t know how to remind him without LBing. It just seems like any time I bring up recovery, he just gets so defensive and wants to change the subject. Or, he’ll say “yes, I want to do that” and doesn’t follow through. Any suggestions here would be GREATLY appreciated! I don’t want to be critical, but I also don’t want to get back to that point. Yes, I so want that balance, but don’t know how to achieve it.

“It could be H is scared that you haven't really changed...”

>I show him my call logs, my emails. I always tell him where I am or where I’m going. I try to give him reassurances. I would apologize if something came up that may remind him of the A. What else can I do?

“My communication sucked and put up walls around him all the time....I changed and those walls don't come up.”

>How did your comm change? Where did you learn to do this?

BTW – thank you … for being there and looking out for me since Day 1.


FF – Thanks. Am reading …

I felt like a doormat again for the first little bit of recovery as H was healing. He didn't do a good job of no LB's, etc. but I was bound and determined to stick it through until he healed. I continued to work on myself, and find other things that helped me with my sense of self and my self esteem - like a woman's group at the church, finding hobbies I enjoyed - anything but relying on men for my sense of self again. I often reacted emotionally to H's treatment of me which made things worse. I tried to give him his space, but instead came across needy and smothered him, as I wanted to talk about changes, and the relationship alot, and all he wanted was to heal.

Your H's porn addiction must be addressed, and he will have to answer to alot of his escapes, but I believe right now he is escaping as everything has caught up with him and he realizes alot of his pain is still there, even though you guys were seperated for awhile and he seemed to be doing better, it was without you being around to remind him of where things are at.

On how to approach him about his porn, I am not sure...I think others have good advice for that. As for his space. Continue to change, continue to build trust - it takes alot of time. It's frustrating as you know the changes you make, and desperately want others to see those changes, but sometimes it takes a bit for people to notice and trust the changes, and not that you are just trying to please them to make them forget. keep it up and hang in there. meanwhile find activites and things that make you feel good to help you with your self worth etc.



Definately wait and hope. I call this the WS's plan A of sorts. Continue to meet his needs as much as he will let you - continue to change and work on yourself. Don't push talk about the R unless he brings it up, and talk about his day, normal day to day things when he is up for it. Don't push time together, but try to get him to spend time with you by renting movies, maybe playing a game online with him, any that is appealing with no strings attached - quality time. There are ways to work with his escapes until he can give those up. Right now he may not be working on himself as he doesn't know how too since he isn't in IC or visiting MB. these are things I had to learn with my H as well as he wouldn't see a MC and stopped coming here early in recovery.



I don't know how to bring that up without LB as I mentioned above. But maybe when it seems he is heading towards his computer, try to suggest something you can do together. If he has certain fantasies - perhaps if he will talk about them, re-enact them in the bedroom? This is a big thing for him to change if he is addicted and I think it might require professional help. Perhaps continue to encourage him to go to MC or IC? I will leave this one to other people to answer as I am just not experienced in this area and don't want to give poor advice.



You are doing all the right things, but it takes alot of time. Time that he knows it isn't just an act and can let himself believe that your actions are real, and not just trying to put him off. As genuine as you are being, as BS you often wonder (this from my own experience of recently being a BS as well), you often wonder if they have just gotten better at lying, if they are just showing you things to get you off their backs...it takes time for them to trust that you are genuine. Keep it up, keep up the personal changes, and he will notice and he will trust again. Have patience.



Wow this is a tough one. My parents and Sally from the boards were key in helping me realize my communication problems. i talk alot, and talk alot about my desires, feelings, etc - so i never thought I had a communication problem...but it turns out I did, or atleast with my H I did. The biggest thing I learned was that I always wanted my POV heard and understood, and so badly wanted it, I would have to have the last word. I never thought I had to be right, but I realized that my method for forcing my POV on someone could come across as me wanting to be right and bullying someone into seeing my POV - never my intention, but how it came accross. i also always reacted emotionally. And stated my needs in an emotional way - this caused my H's defense wall to come automatically up, and then conversations would never go well. I never realized I had sabatoged them before they even started - no wonder I was never heard! I have learned to walk away or ask the discussion stop when i feel the conversation heading to a non-productive place, when before I used to push the converstation until everything was discussed and i felt satisfied all my feelings were out. As good as I felt after, my H would feel pretty abused, defensive and angry.

My point is we all communicate different, but learning how to communicate with our husbands based on our H's personalities is what you need to do. In my H's case, stroking his ego and helping him feel as if his POV is okay to have, helps alot, as when i pushed my POV, he often felt I was looking down on his POV. we often don't agree, but now we respect that we think VERY differently, and we don't have to understand eachother's POV but we need to respect them.

I am rambling as usual LOL.

I hope some of this helped?

Dorry,

Your words are always exceedingly helpful.

"Definately wait and hope. I call this the WS's plan A of sorts. Continue to meet his needs as much as he will let you - continue to change and work on yourself. Don't push talk about the R unless he brings it up, and talk about his day, normal day to day things when he is up for it. Don't push time together, but try to get him to spend time with you by renting movies, maybe playing a game online with him, any that is appealing with no strings attached - quality time. There are ways to work with his escapes until he can give those up. Right now he may not be working on himself as he doesn't know how too since he isn't in IC or visiting MB. these are things I had to learn with my H as well as he wouldn't see a MC and stopped coming here early in recovery."

Now, this is going to sound REALLY bad, but have you ever stopped to ask why you're doing all of these things? Meaning, I would like to think that there's a purpose for my making all of these concessions, being patient, improving myself, etc. I do realize that unconditional love is a rare thing, but that can't be the only thing that keeps a marriage going, can it?

While I know my actions were horribly wrong, I still feel I deserve better than this. What would your counsel be if I've never had an A? And, b/c I had an A, does that then justify my ill-treatment?

As you can see, I, too, react emotionally - esp. when I'm fixated on something negative like this. I am very scared that things will never change ... that they may even get worse b/c now he can use my A as a justification for his actions and hold my natural inclination toward guilt hostage.

OK, here's the really BIG question for you and everyone else to answer ... should I move back in with him when all I see is regression? Unlike what FH said in his post to me, I feel like we're taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back every day. The 1st 6 weeks of recovery looked so good and promising. What happened???

OK, I'll stop rambling now and let the expert give some advice.

Thanks again,

Well whisper, I realized I WANTED my husband, not just needed, and I wanted him not only for myself, but for my children - I didn't want to let him go, and I knew that if I could hold out long enough things WOULD change. I had an affair, if that wasn't enough of a wake up for H to realize things had to change, then I don't know what. But I knew he would need to heal to get to that point that he could change. I couldn't ask too much of him at once. Now this was easier said than done...you feel very lonely, very hopeless, very hurt...but I reminded myself of my GOAL everyday - that one day we would have a healthy marriage, and it may take YEARS as people have said - but we would get there if I could make it through this.



You do deserve better, but in the same breath - so does your husband. The question is - what do YOU want whisper - do you want your marriage and your husband? Then patience. Things can change - but it takes time. If you didn't have an A, I would be telling you to get into MC, to learn how to talk to your H, to express your needs to get the marriage you deserve. BUT since you had an A, NO, it doesn't justify the ill-treatment...but your H has alot to deal with now too - it's not just you that was ill-treated, he was too, and he has to heal from it - you healed by having an affair and feeling better...he hasn't healed yet - he is 8 steps behind you.

I know what it is like as a FWW - we are ready for the marriage to change, ready to commit, ready for the changes...and we totally forget that our BS's are like 8 steps behind us. While we weren't happy - we had affairs....now they aren't happy - they probably wont have affairs, but they need to process and heal. I know your H had a year of seperation where he knew about the A....but the A is over and you are there with him, and it's probably really hitting home, what you did. You need to have patience. If after a GOOD recovery period, things have not changed, then I would say you need to push it harder. You are only 3-4 months in and it has been a good 3-4 months, and now you are seeing the 2 steps back - where he regresses a bit. Be patient, give him space, see if he comes around on his own. remind him you love him and this is where you want to be.



This is where I became the ultimate door mat. I put up with alot from my H - alot of very mean DJ and LB's and his pushing me away and starting to dabble in singles forums - when things got that bad - I didn't push and boundaries...and eventually he got into an EA and left me. Since he has been back, I have put my new communication skills into play as I wasn't going to have us make the same mistakes. When he came back I placed NO expectations on him to change. I knew he knew his mistakes, and he knew his faults, but I was determined to change and adapt to HIS personality and make it easier - after all I couldn't force HIM to change, I could only change me. And so far it has made a load of difference. There are still some things he needs to change, but I have faith it will happen in time, as more and more changes for us. change can be contagious you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The first 6 weeks are always the newlywed stage....it's true when they say up to two years or more...lots of forwards and backwards...and this wont be the last one i bet. Hang in there - you are DOING great. As for moving in - that will your personal choice when you are ready.

Thanks, Dorry. It all make sense ... very good sense.

Does inspiring him to change simply mean that I should just keep on improving even though I don’t see any responses? If so, how long should I wait? Two years or longer like what everyone says? I’ve already endured this for so many years, I don’t think I can do it for 2 more years! What can/should I really expect??

BS can be affected in may ways. Your BH seems to be running from the problems in your relationship : All of them. Food and habits are our comforts when we are hurt and clueless. With your H, comfort eating makes him feel like he did when Mom gave him pie to make him feel better as a kid perhaps; also a focus on pornography where women are predictable and having multiple sex partners doen't matter, unlike in you rmarriage and teh 'real world'.
And work where he isn't a cuckold, and his view of his own self worth and maculinity is still intact.

My interpretations may be wrong, but can you SEE how his regression to type may be a continuation of a problem denial mechanism he had BEFORE your affair ?

I have no skills to address your Hs issues, andI suspect neiter do you, but you owe him patience BUT do not avoid conflict. If you care for him you should gently persist in love to ask him why he does what he does.

It sounds like he needs some professional counselling. I think getting him there should be your first priority.

regarding "should you keep on improving" why wouldn't you do that REGARDLESS of the outcome of your recovery ?

All blessings

Then you need to apply some of the HNHN guidelines. Practice the same methodology with on subjects with a lessor impact.

example:

Scenario: Whisper needs help putting a shelf up in the bathroom.

Whisper: H, I am going to the store to get a shelf for the bathroom, any suggestions?

H: Why?

Whisper: We need the space and I saw one that would fit just perfect. I'd be open to other suggestions or you can go look at it with me. I'd really like that.

H: I am busy at work.

Whisper: Ok. (note: no details).

H: What store are you going to?

Whisper: Home Depot

H: I like Lowe's better.

Whisper: Did you see a shelf there that would fit?

H: No.

Whisper: Wanna go and check it out for us?

H: I am busy at work.

Whisper: Ok.

H: When are you doing to Lowes?

Whisper: Not sure. (by now u r probably getting annoyed....keep your cool). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

H: Well I can go by Lowes after work. Want to meet me there?

Whisper: If you throw in dinner @ Chevy's. (tempt his tummy...remember about a way to a man's heart?)

H: Hm.... ok.

There u go. Got yourself a date, some couple time and a shelf shopping.

That's a sample. BTW, Lowe's and Chevy's are near my house. LOL!!!

JMHO,
L.

Orchid - thats really clever!

I think my experience is similar, so in case its helpful...



It was many months post dday before I felt like I really had any idea what H was feeling and thinking about my A. I would ask and he would say, he was feeling 'nothing' or he was feeling 'empty'. He also went through a period of saying he wasn't in any pain or wasn't thinking about it at all. I think his way of dealing with something so major was to initially push it away and to withdraw.

I had no idea what to do. I got advice from BHs on here to keep trying a sort of reverse plan A, work on myself, apologise completely and fully at any time the A came up, and look after myself.

I guess we didn't really start working on the M until 8 months past dday, when we started MC. Until then I was recovering in myself, with an IC and books. I was patient and present for H but had little expectations of needs being filled. I asked anyway, and accepted it when he said no sometimes. Now we are 14 months post dday and things are improving considerably. Our M is much better than it was, we communicate better and are much more respectful and gentle with each other.

I have grown a lot through IC and all of the relationship and personal development books I have read. H agrees that he much prefers the person I am now to the person I was pre-A. Me too!

H is still recovering though, and there are times he can't contribute much to our M. Who knows how long it will take? I can't focus on that. It is not under my control. I can only focus on improving myself, including establishing boundaries for resolving conflicts. If H can't yet always fill my ENs, I fill them myself or spend time with friends or family. I have quite a good life! Making opportunities for fun things (weekends away etc) have been very important in our R.

The purpose is to to have the most fulfilling, happy, and rewarding life you can by becoming the best whisper you can be. FOr your sake.

Smur,

Your case is closer to whisper's. I was just giving a HnHn Orchid version. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Your H's are dealing with the A in an avoiding stance. It is hard. Makes more work on a recovery xWS than s/b. Even though I believe the Xws s/b doing most of the recovery work.

Glad to see you are both doing well. Seems like when your H withdrew, you felt compelled to pursue?

There are a lot of BS H's who could use your insight.

Thanks for helping whisper.

L.

Dear Whisper, you’re welcome and please don’t think so negatively about yourself my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You are a WORTHY PERSON and you’ve made SO many good changes during the past few months... And you've made these changes not only for your H, but also for yourself. It’s okay to have problems and struggles Whisper and it is not expected of you to handle everything in life perfectly. Life is a learning school and it requires time and patience...also with yourself.

Whisper, please know I feel very proud of you in spite of the difficulties & problems you currently experience and I’m sure many others here thinks the same... Just look at all the people who care and all the great support and advice you receive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You have no reason to feel like a failure Whisper... Problems, difficult & struggles are part of life and it is NOT the existence of problems, struggles etc. in your life which determine if you’re worthy or not. You are worthy in spite of these things!

Whisper, maybe it will help you to look at the bigger picture and view the obstacles and struggles in your life as things to help you grow, learn and develop throughout life.

I don't have advice for your current situation Whisper (others have already done a good job with that) so thought I would lift your spirit a bit and give you some moral support! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, thoughts, prayers and blessings to you,
Suzet

Bob - My H just called to ask about the IC's phone #. Maybe he's going to call today?? Please keep your fingers crossed for me!!

Orchid - Good suggestion. Make sense.

Smur - Thanks for sharing. It helps to know I'm not alone w/ this. You're right. I need to work on me and hope that he'll catch up. I just hope it won't be too long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Suzet - Thank you. You have a way of making me feel better about any situation.

Also, just to let everyone know. I'm not giving up on this. This week was a set back, but I'm going to keep plow through.

Wish me luck ... and thanks to everyone for your great advice, encouragement and support!!!!!

Many hugs,

This sound good - keep it up Whisper! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> How are you now after the weekend?

whisper - I'm happy to hear that things are a bit better. Have you read on the Dear Peggy site? She has a graph of recovery that is basically a very zig-zagged line heading in an upward direction. I think of that a lot if I am having a bad day!

Orchid - yes, I think I definitely pursued when H withdrew. Which was probably not for the best. I need to work on more acceptance. Allowing him to do what he needs to for recovery in his own way, not judging or 'helping', while still respecting and caring for myself, and drawing boundaries. Being totally open with him about my feelings and my new self-knowledge. I am slowly learning.

Suzet –

This past weekend was terrific ... we had dinner out with some friends on Friday and my H took me to a romantic evening out to dinner and an upscaled blues/jazz club. Couldn’t have been more superb.

Then, Sunday hit. (I'm really starting to hate Sundays.) If you recall, my H had suggested that we schedule a weekly pow-wow to review our progress and set goals/activities that will keep us moving in the right direction. Well, we did just that. One of our tasks was to complete all of Harley's MB questionnaires and go over them. Even though I noticed my H didn't complete his until the last minute and didn't bother reading the explanations at the top of each page so as to answer the questions appropriately, I didn't say anything. I thought he, at least, did complete them. So, we started by going through the Personal History Questionnaire, each taking turns answering a section at a time so that we can clarify or answer any questions the other had.

The one thing that really stuck out was his sexual history. I guess I'm very sensitive to this part, since I know he was/is still “using” pornography. During our discussion, he admitted that he's had some sexual exploits in the past that were pretty intense and "adventurous." At the time, I didn't think much of it until the next day. What didn't make any sense is why he was so open and adventurous with sex with other girls but not me? And, the worst part is feeling that perhaps I drove him to pornography somehow. Unfortunately, I spent most of the day yesterday (Monday) obsessing about this, and, when he got home, I brought it up. He automatically became defensive and angry. After a couple of hours, we finally made up, went out for a nice drive and grabbed a quick dinner. Everything seemed peachy again until we got back to the house. As you know, we’re still separated. So, when we pulled up, my H became edgy, and I didn’t understand why. He asked me what I wanted to do and said “I guess I don’t mind if you want to stay.” What kind of comment was that? I became indignant and left, but I felt something was amiss. What was really strange was his behavior triggered something that happened over 13 years ago! When we were dating in college, he cheated on me once with an ex-girlfriend and lied about it. I almost forgot about it until something in his words & behavior triggered that memory. I tried to ignore it and left.

As usual, he called me around 9:30 (his bedtime) to tell me good night. Said he was tired and was crawling in bed. Again, I detected something was amiss, so I decided to drive out and see if my instincts were right. When I got there, all the lights in the house were on, so I walked in and immediately knew he was in the basement. When he heard me come in, he quickly turned off his computer and flipped the monitor. I was shocked! Of all things, I didn’t expect this – considering we just had a fight about it less than 2 hours ago! Then, it finally dawned on me … that my H was absolutely, unequivocally addicted to pornography! Even though many at MB had warned me about it, I guess I never fully understood it (or simply ignored it) until last night. Just like how I was when I was in my A, he was willing to give up our marriage for his addiction!

What was really naïve of me is my thinking that my A would give him the wake-up call he needed to “kick the habit.” Shortly therafter, my H came over, bringing both of his computers saying that he wants me to keep them until he’s able to overcome this. He asked if we could go for a walk. As we talked, I realized I was hearing the same B.S. that I was dishing out for the past 1.5 years … except for the fact that his addiction has lasted 8 years and is still there! And, all this time I thought we weren’t having SF b/c “it” just goes away after a while. Hate to bring up old history, but that’s also why it was quite perplexing that the OM (even after 1.5 years) still wanted SF all the time.

Suzet, I’m so lost I don’t know what to do!!! Like Dorry said, I’m so scared that things will revert back to how things were. BTW – it turns out that my H hasn’t exactly kicked his computer gaming addictions either. Just like his use of pornography, he just waits until I’m gone. And, he just admitted last night that he’s also addicted to eating. (I didn’t even know there was such a thing.)

What the h*ll is going on here?!! What happened to the good-looking, out-going, fun-loving, intelligent man that I married???? Was he always like this, and I just didn’t (or refuse to) see it? I know we got married young and very quickly (after 8 months), but we were already living together, so you’d think I would’ve seen these things. Maybe I just didn’t want to see, so I didn’t? Is love truly that blind?

And, most importantly, what do I do now?? I’m so frightened. Again, Dorry is right - I just didn’t want to admit it … I don’t trust myself. I’m afraid that I’ll miss the attention and long for the physical intimacy that’s been lost for so long and look elsewhere (again) for that love. Now, instead of the passionate love that I started to feel for my H again, I’m left feeling disgusted, sad, cheated … and very lonely and afraid.

The good news is we’re going to see our MC today. Unfortunately, I’m not as optimistic about things as I was. I equate things w/ my A, which lasted 1.5 years and is still plaguing me after 3+ months. What can I expect from an addiction that lasted 8+ years??

Can anyone please help and shed some light on this? Please??

Whisp - I always got the idea you were a confident woman who liked to get out and do things.

What you really need to do is find other things that can make you happy besides a man. Seriously - i found out i was so dependent on H to make me happy - that when we had our problems in recovery and he was distant and not changing, I wsa feeling like you. What I discovered is while H and i can be in a loving relationship that makes us both happy, and enjoy eachother's company, etc - it is NOT my H's responsibility to make me happy. It's a perk of the relationship...

So when he can't make me happy - I can't turn to another man who makes me feel happy - did that, been there - big mistake...so what can I do?

KEEP working on yourself - find things that do make you happy - running, skiing, pottery, reading, a woman's group, singing - I don't know - something. Start to hang around with other woman and get out for a ladies dinner and movie night - this companionship is healthy and can keep your spirits up.

Your H is in a rut - he is feeling all sorts of feelings and falling back to his old habits of addiction - and yes there is a food addiction - it's why some overweight people have problems' loosing weight - they eat to escape from problems.

BUt you need to be patient - gently encourage and help your husband to seek solutions to his problems, but continue to seek solution to yours. Don't put that added pressure on your H of being the one who HAS to make you happy.

The reason I say this is even when you recover...all marriages have ups and downs...what if H gets sick, or depressed, or has to work away sometime down the future, and you are still dependent on him to make you happy...what will happen when he can't meet that need for a temporary period of time...your weakness will be exposed and you won't know what to do.......fix that weakness now.

I am glad H admits he has some problems, perhaps continue to gently persuade him to go to IC. Or offer him other things to do with his time with you. The addictions are escape behaviors - make it as comforable in the house as possible when you are around, and encourage time with you...This way he has less and less reasons to "escape".

Whisper,

I can hear how painful this must be to you. You asked :



From an outsider's perspective, I would say, yes, he has always been like this. It must be extremely painful to think that you haven't seen this. Could it be that your A was partly about escaping from this painful knowledge and pretending it wasn't true?

BUT (and there is a big but!!)



I think this is also true. He is also and has always been this person.

I found a lot of promise in your post because your H obviously realises he has a problem. This is very important!! IMO, most people in the world do not think they have any problems. I think everyone has at least some dysfunctional ways of dealing with their problems. You and I had As. Others have alcohol, working, shouting, blaming, distancing, gambling....etc...

As I see it, the issue is whether or not we are aware of our dysfunctional coping methods and, if they affect the rest of our lives badly, we try and find ways to overcome them. Your H sounds like he is trying that first step. He has ackowledged he needs help to overcome his addiction.
How much are you able to step back and let him try and fix himself? I don't think that means you give up all rights to leave the M if, after givign him plenty of time, you cannot see any progress.

I think that means that you focus on making yourself happy, as D pointed out. Did you read BR's detachment with love thread?

PS - as an aside about dysfunctional coping - I have some work to do today that I am avoiding by posting to you....

I am editing because I wanted to add that I didn't ignore your feeligns of beign terribly afraid. I have felt that too, often. I think it comes from realising that we are truly powerless when it comes to other people. In all honesty, there is NOTHING we can do to change them. Its very scary. That does not mean that they won't change. They might. But if they do, it won't be through anything we do or don't do. The best we can do is be true to ourselves and keep growing and learning.

Whisper...

If you need an ear, I'm here. If you need a friend, I'm here. If you want to vent, I'm here. It hurts to see your pain. Maybe there there is reason... maybe god has a reason for this. Who knows... But I want you to "know"... I'm here for you.

Undo

Dorry - I do have many things that I'm a part of and am fairly independent. I'm on a competitive women's tennis league that plays 3 days a week, I was volunteering at a local animal rescue center, I was going out with my girlfriends frequently, I'd walk, jog, read books or watch sports when I'm by myself - and I love it! Once recovery began, many of these activities stopped - not b/c I wanted them to, but b/c my H wanted me to spend more time w/ him. But, he only wants it on his own terms, doing the things he wants to do (which is basically sitting around the house and watching sci-fi or violent movies that don't interest me whatsoever). Last week he bought tickets to a rock concert but then wasted them b/c he chose to work late, so I just sat at home, all made up waiting for him all night. And, no, he didn't HAVE to work late - he just thought he'd set a good example for his team. If I seem bitter, that's b/c I am. I've gone through this for 8 years, and I just don't know how much more I can take.

Smur - Yes, the fact that my H actually realized he has a problem is a big step for him. This is also why I'm willing to stick it out - with hopes that THIS time will be different from all others. As I said to my H earlier today, I will stick around until either things improve or I am completely void of all hope, love and self-respect. And, if it came to that and I leave, I will know that I leave in good conscience and that there will be no regrets.

Dear Whisper,

(((HUGS)))

Just to let you know I have read your posts and updates. I don’t have much time right now and I’m not around on these boards for the rest of today and tomorrow, but I want you to know that I’m still keeping you in my thoughts and prayers during this painful & difficult time…

I will post to you again on Friday or after the weekend.

In the meantime, please take care of yourself...
Suzet

I don't have any advice, just know I'm praying for you and your husband's healing of pornography and marriage.

{{Hugs}}

Undo/Suzet/Kds,

Thank you very much. You don't know how much it means to me to know that there are caring people like you that I can lean on. I do feel very alone right now, b/c this is one topic I cannot bring up to my close friends and family. My therapy group and my friends on MB are all I've got.

Thanks again,

Dear Whisper, I want to share something inspirational & encouraging with you today. I have also posted it on my ”Encouraging poems, prayers and stories” thread, but while I was reading it this morning, I thought it would be perfect to specifically share this one with YOU today. I hope it will help to uplift your spirit and give you something positive and encouraging to take into the weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Here it is:

[color:"purple"] BEGINNING TODAY

Beginning today…
I will no longer worry about yesterday.
It is in the past and the past will never change.
Only I can change by choosing to do so.

Beginning today…
I will no longer worry about tomorrow.
Tomorrow will always be there,
waiting for me to make most of it.
But I cannot make the most of tomorrow,
without first making the most of today.

Beginning today…
I will look in the mirror and I will see a person
worthy of my respect and admiration.
This capable person looking back at me is
someone I enjoy spending time with
and someone I would like to get to know better.

Beginning today…
I will cherish each moment of my life.
I value the gift bestowed upon me in this world
and I will unselfishly share this gift with others.

Beginning today…
I will take a moment to step off the beaten path
and to revel in the mysteries I encounter.
I will face challenges with courage and determination.
I will overcome what barriers there may be
which hinder my quest for growth and self-improvement.

Beginning today…
I will take life one day at a time, one step at a time…
Discouragement will not be allowed to taint my positive self-image,
my desire to succeed or my capacity to love.

Beginning today…
I walk with renewed faith in human kindness.
Regardless of what has gone before.
I believe there is hope for a brighter and better future.

Beginning today…
I will open my mind and my heart.
I will welcome new experiences.
I will meet new people.
I will not expect perfection from myself nor anyone else:
Perfection does not exist in an imperfect world.
But I will applaud the attempt to overcome human foibles.

Beginning today…
I am responsible for my own happiness
and I will do things that make me happy…
admire the beautiful wonders of nature;
listen to my favourite music;
pet a kitten of a puppy;
soak in a bubble bath…
Pleasure can be found in the most simple of gestures.

Beginning today…
I will learn something new;
I will try something different;
I will savour all the various flavours life has to offer.
I will change what I can and the rest I will let go.
I will strive to become the best me I can possibly be.[/color]

Whisper, I want to encourage you to also read my prayers, poems and stories thread I've referred to above. There are many other inspirational stuff you will find helpfull.

Hugs, thoughts and prayers,
Suzet

Suzet,

Thank you. This is wonderful (and very much needed right now). I went to my support group last night and voiced my concerns. Everyone was very helpful and supportive. It's good to know that no matter what happens, I'll know there are people I can lean on. I think this will be critical for me in the upcoming months.

You're a gem ... thanks for being my friend.

Whisper

As I have matured thorugh my own process of recovery I have seen many wierd dynamics recur in recovering relationships. One that I have great sympathy for is where the BS pre marriage was neglectful or abusive, and seems to see the affair as an excuse to not change that behaviour. As if it has delivered them a trump card which will perpetually place their FWS on the back foot. A stick that will alway sbe used to beat WS if they demand too much in their opinion.

BUT as a BS I see that an affair trumps almost ANY lawful contribution to the marriage by the BS pre-A.

What can happen is that the BS can feel they need not recognise or change their spousal contributions because they didn;t have an affair.

In truth I belive affairs are almost unrelated to the marriges they spring from. WS from good marriages and bad marriages nearly all blame their marriage and their BS for almost forcing them into adultery.

I believe that this is nevertrue. Unless the BS held a gun and made teh WS Strip, teh A is ALWAYS the responsibility of teh WS without any ecuse.

HOWEVER getting over an affair is a perfect opportunity to change a lot of stuff that wasn't working before the affair. I find that WS and BS for the first time in years sometime s have each others undivided attention and a willingness for self-criticism.

Squid has transformed herself and abandoned behaviours that I previously had accepted as being unmovable parts of her personality. I have done the same in HER view.

Now I didn;t like it but I had to start changing MY behaviour, however unfair I felt it was. I think one spouse always has to take most of the initiative after an affair, and its not easy to predict which one it will be, FWS or BS.

Once I OWNED my own unacceptable behaviours, and changed them we started to discuss our marriage rather than just her affair.

It took a long time, and we still have work in progress but our behaviours and marriage are transformed now. And we were pretty screwed before and after Squids affair.

What am I saying ?

Probably that you need to unilaterally OWN you affair, take responsibility for it OUTSIDE teh problems in yoru marriage. Then you can address YOUR contributions to your old bad marriage independent of your affair.

I know you said previously that you did nothing wrong before your affair, but with respect this stinks of entitlement AND A failure to recognise that your H could not have developed entrenched poor behaviours without your complicity, perhaps through conflict avoidance.

The MAIN THING I had to change was my conflict avoidance. I never dreamed that disagreement and discussion it would lead to LESS arguments but it really does. We have to take responsibility for how much we allow our lives to be devalued by our spouse's negative behaviours. No choice is a choice.

I hope I have made some sense

All blessings

I have to agree with Bob. I thought I had done nothing wrong pre-A...but it turns out - do you know why H was neglecting me, escaping to video games, not coming out with the family? He confessed a few months into recovery that he had resentment for me - that I didn't do certain things for him.

You see I thought I was a great wife - I had his clothes washed, layed out for him, meals made, kids raised, house cleaned, brought him little gifts and cards, planned his schedule, did his finances, took his car to have the oil changed...but I was SO busy that I would fall asleep at the end of the night, and H would wake me with no affection for SF...and I would turn him down - for good reason, one I was exhausted from everything I was doing, and two - I wasn't turned on by being woken up with no affection - so to me those were good excuses.

Little did I know this was the ultimate rejection for my H, and I didn't even notice - I mean - I still gave him SF every week or two weeks, so what was I doing wrong? I was doing everything he couldnt live without me right? This hurt my H so much that he began to escape, began to neglect, began to not do much - why should he if I wouldn't do for him.

I never knew this about my H. Do I blame him for my neglect though? NOPE - although it seems he was doing this purposefully, I still don't blame him. Why? cause had I taken the time to really ask him what his needs were instead of doing what I thought I should do, I would have known. Had I learned to talk to him about my neglected feelings without coming to him and saying - YOU make me feel, or YOU did...and saying I am feeling instead, then maybe his defensive wall would not have come up and he would have heard my cries for help before my A started.

As nuts as it sounds, his behavior is just as much my fault as it is his fault. And then I blame him for my A? When I could have prevented it.

Now I am not saying that he has no blame in his reactions. His conflict avoiding and escape behaviors he does need to address, but I also have a responsibility to learn how to work around that with him to make him feel safer to be around me, to not want to escape, to not want to conflict avoid - and it's in my reactions. I used to react emotionally all the time - no wonder my H didn't want conflict - hard to to deal with someone who gets anger, tongue becomes a tool or starts crying.

My point here is - you need to figure out what you have done wrong, cause I am doubting you were a perfect wife before your A....in most cases, a neglectful husband is that way because something isn't right in the marriage (not always - some truly are a.r.s.e.s. but you get my point) Your husbands escape behiviors could be in reaction to something you aren't even aware you are doing, in the same way your A was a reaction to something your H might not have been aware he was doing.

Make the changes - keep searching - it's well worth it - keep looking at yourself Everytime you find yourself wandering over to the anger or blame to your H, turn it back to yourself and figure out what your blame and anger was in whatever is bothering you - keep up YOUR changes. H will react to your changes...as human nature is to react...and if your changes are good, his reactions will be too. Hang in there.

Whisper you mentioned that you have his computers right? Does he also have consoles such as xbox,gamecube, and ps2?

Have you also asked to have video game cd's,boxes and manuels?

What I would suggest that you do is remove/uninstall the games from the computer and by you have the game cd's he will not be able to install them without going out to the store and buying them again.

Video games have been and are being used by people so that they can escape real world. One of the reasons why video games are nice for people escaping the real world is for example people that are overweight they are treated differently and disrespected out in public but on a video game you don't know that they are overweight or what they look like so as a result you never get made fun of or treated disrespectully over the internet because people can't see that you are overweight thus eliminating it.

I can come up with more examples on why people use video games like this.

But ya if you can uninstall the games and get the game cd's boxes and manuels from him.

NL, doing that would be a major lovebuster unless it was POJAed first. As would YOU surrender your comfort blanket at the most stressful time of your life voluntarily ?

I agree with your theory but the execution of the resolution would need more thought here IMO.

Ya that would be a major love buster wouldn't it. hmmm. Do you have any idea on how to do an execution than that wouldn't be a love buster? If we could do that than I think that would greatly because you need to limit the ability to get the fix and with no games and the games are uninstalled it would be very difficult for him to get a fix from them.

Here I will just brain stom but ah what if she was to at the next time she meet him and ask him how he is doing coping without having the games and the computer and than see if him seeing the gaming cds manuels and boxes was a trigger for him and than asking him if there was something she could do to help him out with those triggers. (again this is just me brainstorming, just coming up with this in like 15 seconds, there is probably a love buster in what i just said.)

Whisper & H are pretty well off. As a gesture of rebellion H could just go to Game Zone and replace them all.

You can lock up the liquor cabinet, but an alcoholic an always find booze if they want to.

Its helping them see they don't WANT to that works long term.

Well see that is the thing don't we always say that it would be dumb to put a recovering alcoholic in front of beer?

Same thing. Ya he could replace them all but since he doesn't have a computer what would he do with them? He would have to go out and get another computer. I mean the whole point is to limit the availablity of it. Less there is of availablity the less likely it will start again.

Ya he could do those things but its all about risk in a sense right?

I agree that in long term helping them see they don't want to that works long term but that doesn't happend until withdrawal is by most part over.

NL, I won't argue with you. we will not agree. Whisper can decide if forcibly taking away all Hs computer equpment would work or not.

I don't know many people who would respond well to that approach, is all.

No I'm not saying forcefully although I kinda was suggesting that, what I was saying is would it help to remove some of the triggers of his addiction.

Sorry for the delayed response - was out of town for the long weekend.

Bob/Dorry - I had started another thread http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1 w/ a different subject line so that I could get feedback specific to SA. With this, you may not have read my posts that addresses some of your concerns & suggestions. In any case, I do very much believe that I was a huge factor in the downfall of our M, and nobody pointed a gun to my head to have an A. I am grossly aware of my faults and am working on them every day - on my own, through my support/accountability group, as well as MC.

The challenge that my H and I are up against (ie his addictions) is something far beyond our ability to comprehend, ignore, change or "fix" without external assistance. Through research and MC, we've learned that this is not merely emotional "escapism" but rather a long-term substance abuse (in this case pornography and online gaming) that has consumed my H over the years. Note: Even though he voluntarily dropped off his home PC's w/ me last week, he downloaded pornography on his work PC for the 1st time, the very next day. (He's never been w/o a home PC). He is now willing to sacrifice his job for it. He says he hates himself for doing so but doesn't know how to control it. He also says he's "hit bottom" and has contemplated suicide. I know this is going to sound harsh, but I don't know if I completely believe him. You know what they say - it takes one to know one? His words and actions don't sync up. He's going through the motions of attending MC sessions and skimming RecoverNation - only when I'm there to see. Words like "I don't think I'll look tonight" or "I'm doing this for you" don't inspire a lot of confidence. I guess only time will tell.

I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring your suggestions, but I also don't think you understand the full ramifications of our sitch ... and (frankly) neither did we until recently.

NoLiving - While I agree with you that removing the triggers and objects of the addiction helps tremendously, I must agree w/ Bob that an addict can always find ways unless the addiction is removed completely. My H's sitch that I described in my response to Dorry & Bob is a perfect example.

What I'm learning is that unlike other addictions that have fairly immediate side-effects, a long-term SA is exceedingly hard to identify & break. When the addict has led a secret life for so long, his value systems become completely distorted. At some point, they can't distinguish the difference between fantasy v. reality and right v. wrong. They often cross over throughout the day without thought or remorse because the habit has become a behavior and the "wrong" had become "right". They also become so adept in hiding their secret lives that no one (including themselves) is usually aware of what's truly happening or the damage that's been done until it's too late.

Again, we're just skimming the surface. I'm frantically researching what it takes to support him through this trying time, all the while hoping that he truly wants to recover. For me, the hardest thing is the lack of control, as the only way that an addict can recover is if he/she is willing and committed to recovery. I've learned that nothing, absolutely nothing, can motivate, force or persuade an addict otherwise. This is why I'm so scared.

I agree that an addict will find ways but the question than becomes is how far will they go to get th fix. The more difficult it is for someone to get the fix the less likely they are to continue it. It's really is how far are they willing to go to get the fix. The more barriers you put into the place the harder it will be and he may eventually give up but it is all dependent on how far they will go. Him having less triggers will make withdrawal easier to go through.

But nothing is ever 100%.

But than again my suggestion may very well be a big love buster.

I agree with you, NL. Just like breaking away from an A, it's certainly much easier if the OP moves away, gets another job, or just falls off the face of the earth. No doubt about it. I don't know if I would LB and take things away without his agreement/involvement, as I do believe that will position me as the critical parent and him as the rebellious child, which never works. At this point, he has (for most part) removed most of the triggers himself. But, just as Bob said it before, he can always get access to it if he wants it bad enough. Again, I think only time will tell if HE wants to give it up.

Thanks,

Whisper... I don't come back here very often, but as a FWW with a somewhat similar sitch - that being H who is reverting back to old habits and the old "rut" - I can relate. Like many others, I have no advice other than what people like smur, bob pure, dorry, and suzet have provided.

Whisper, thanks for starting the thread, and bob, smur, suzet, dorry, and others, thanks for posting.

All -

I've fantastic news! My H has agreed to go to group therapy! I don't know what happened, but we went to MC today. Half-way through, the therapist sends me out of the room. When I was admitted back nearly 30 minutes later, my H announced that he's agreed to attend group therapy to get help with his addictions! I couldn't believe it! I'm still in shock but am ecstatic! For the first time, he's truly admitted that he's got a problem and is willing to get help ... real help for it! I don't want to get my hopes up, but too late. My hopes are waaaaay up!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, prayers and well-wishes. I know this, too, will be a process and that things like this will still take time, and I still need to seriously work on myself; but, boy, I can't begin to tell you how excited I am about all of this!!!

Whisper
That IS great news, but remember how hard it was for YOU to give up your affair at the peak of its 'pleasure' for you ?

How you would commit to quit one day and swear you could never live without it the next day ? (perhaps - I use MOST FWS as my example here)

Its my guess it won't be easy for your H to face these addictions. For on ething in porn, work and onlin ethere is no ned to face a wife who shattered his heart NOR the need to face a level of husbandry which may not be all it should.

Its a brual thing for a BS to have to admit that pre- A behaviours may have been suspect or poor because it feels like we are taking blame or responsibilty for our spouses affair.

Whisper PLEASE make sure that through this YOU do not even when angry blane your H for your affair. Any sniff of justification from you will push him away, maybe back into his diversions.

YOU felt you had a poor marrige, you chose an affair to deal with it. Your H probably felt he had a poor marriage, he chose diversions which became addictions.

You cannot expect yoru H to take responsibility for his addictions and his recvery from them if you do not do the same for your affair IMO.

GREAT news though and I pray your H finds peace through this therapy, and you two can truly start to build a fantastic new marriage !

that is great news Whisp

It means your husband admits his addictions and has gotten the courage to admit he needs help with them - make sure you reward him for his courage to do this and support him as I am sure this is VERY scary for him, just like doing the right thing for you and returning to your marriage was VERY scary for you!

Dorry,

"this is VERY scary for him"

>Couldn't agree w/ you more. He said these exact words yesterday as we were driving away from MC. I remember the 1st time I went to group counseling and had to admit that I was having an affair to a bunch of strangers. I got so dizzy and hot and started hyperventilating - thought I was going to pass out. This is coming from someone who gives executive presentations and lectures every day! I promise to support him in every way I can, and I won't push the issue. The MC made it clear yesterday - this is HIS recovery, not "ours." In fact, she told me to stay completely out of it and don't even bring it up unless he wants to.

Bob - "You cannot expect yoru H to take responsibility for his addictions and his recvery from them if you do not do the same for your affair IMO."

>I'm not sure why you keep harping on this. I'm pretty certain you've read most of my posts throughout my A and recovery to date. With this, you know I've never once insinuated that I was/am a perfect wife nor do I blame my H for my A. If, for some reason, this is your personal experience with Squid's A, then I'm sorry that you've had to endure it, but please don't assume that every FWS blames their BS or justifies their actions. IMHO, adding undo guilt only stifles recovery, not promote it.

As I said before, nobody pointed a gun to my head to have an A. For the same token, I will not be blamed for my H's addictions that pre-existed me. (It turns out that his addictions were well-entrenched before I ever came along.)

I know there is a lot of sympathy for BS's here (being that it's a MB website for A-broken marriages). With that said, IMO BS's, too, should be held accountable for their behaviors and actions that contributed to the downfall of his/her M. In my H's case, nobody held a gun to his head to make him choose porn or computer games over his spouse either.

"Its a brual thing for a BS to have to admit that pre- A behaviours may have been suspect or poor because it feels like we are taking blame or responsibilty for our spouses affair."

Sorry, perhaps I'm a bit edgy with how things have turned out and wasn't expecting additional guilt to be piled on from what I've been able to dig myself out of. I know it's easy to point the finger at the adultress who had the A, but to excuse and "baby" the BS's wrongful activities is like saying it just takes 1 to tango. IMO, pornography addiction is no less destructive to a marriage than a PA/EA - both are personal choices, and both destroy intimacy, trust & self-esteem.

IMO, both spouses must be held accountable for how their actions have contributed to the marital downfall. (period) I don't believe that an A excuses nor justifies destructive behaviors that pre or post-dates the A. Again, these are just my opinions. Sorry, if I seem edgy.

Whisper
You have effectively cited your Hs pre affair behaviour as a justification for your affair in previous posts. Such is entitlement and is typically not accurate in marriages either. You do the same again in this post.

I 'harp on' because such entitlement in my own experience and in so many situations I have seen on here residual blaming of spouse for affairs is highly counterproductive to recovery.

Please do a search on 'owning your affair' by a FWS called Kyellow.

I do seem to be becoming the scourge of entitled FWS, I should go back to not posting to them, but I am always compelled by a still small voice to point out obvious entitled behaviour as it is SO very unhelpful to recovery. But usually the folk displaying such behaviour deny angrily that they are.

Please do not answer this question publicly on her, but internally : did your H cause your affair ?

I will not post to you again.

All blessings to you and your BH.

It's unfortunate that I won't be hearing from you, Bob. However, I think it's very disconcerting to know that you'd say that I feel some sense of "entitlement" yet you feel it's completely OK that a BS is entitled to his/her actions, regardless what they may be.

"You have effectively cited your Hs pre affair behaviour as a justification for your affair in previous posts."

>Is it not possible that b/c you are still living with the ghosts of Squid's A and thus "reading" more than what's intended on FWS's posts? I know it's hard to be unbiased when you're permanently scarred by Squid's A, but isn't condemning and flinging guilt on FWS's somewhat counterproductive as well?

If you've not done so already, I strongly encourage you to read RecoverNation. While the site is geared toward SA, it taught me a lot about myself and my behaviors as a WW. But, more importantly, it's teaching me how to become whole again ...

"the first critical step in recovery: actively committing to change. What's next? The second step is to let go of the shame that you may feel for your past/current behaviors. Trying to make a permanent recovery from addiction while holding on to shame is like trying to climb Mount Everest with an elephant strapped to your back--it can't be done. The guilt and shame you may feel for past behaviors must now be replaced with pride for the decisions you are making today, and for those you will make in the future."

Thank you for your well wishes, and I hope you'll post again. Best of luck to you & Squid as well.

whisp,

I have to agree a little with bob here - sometimes you still do alot of blaming on your husband - albeit - it's getting better and better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your h's addictions made a huge impact on your marriage, leading you guys to the state of the marriage pre-your A....but you had so many other options other than an A - you may not have seen them at the time...but they have always been there and you just needed the strength you have now back then to put your foot down, make those changes happen. Anything he contributed to the marriage has nothing to do with your affair - it's a seperate act. It may have helped you get into the main frame to justify your actions...but it has nothing to do WITH your affair.

I think Bob just wants to make sure you KNOW that and don't place your affair on him and his addictions...they are huge problems, but they are unrelated to your affair.

(((HUGS)))

You are doing great btw <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't believe I have ever seen Bob say that a BS is in any way entitled to bad behavior, only that it is completely unrelated to the decision to have an affair. Sure, the BS should face their bad behavior, but the WS must clean up their side of the street regardless of the actions of the BS. A WS is 100% responsible for the affair.


I would just point out that we are probably ALL biased here, especially when it comes to seeing our own crap. But that is really beside the point and doesn't answer Bob's points. I wish you the best with your H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading this board for some time without posting. You all have helped me so much. I can't thank you enough! I have not posted yet because my situation doesn't exactly mirror any that have been discussed, but that doesn't mean the information givin here is all wrong for me. It has been totally right on the money, and I appreciate Dr Harley for his good work and insight.

Anyway, I decided to post to you, Whisper, because I think that I can give you some insight as to what your husband is going through. I may be off base with some of the things I'm going to say, and for that, I will apologize in advance. I think that you can take what I have to say, turn it around in your mind, and gain some insight to what your husband is going through.

So, without making you want to beat me over the head for not "just saying it now!!", I'll begin... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your husband, like myself at one time, is addicted to online games. This is not something that YOU can pull out from under him. He HAS to make up his mind that the time he spends on that game IS a waste of his valuable time and he can find something else, like spending time with you, that would give him much more satisfaction.

Whisper, I'm going to tell you what it took my husband a year and a half to pull out of me... I didn't think he loved me enough to pay attention to me and love me the way I wanted to be loved, so I looked somewhere else to find that need. An Online game, as silly as this may sound, provided me with just that. I had "internet" friends who fed my ego because I was an awesome player. I know how ridiculus this sounds, but it was a way for me to feel needed (helping clan members level and giving high level weapons, etc...)

What your husband needs is for you to make him feel the way those online games and fellow gamers make him feel. He feels needed. He feels appreciated. He feels a strong comrodery with his fellow gamers that you are not providing him with.

I know you are trying very hard to show your husband that you love him and want to be his wife and live a wonderful life together, but you are missing an important EN of his. Think on that.

I'd also like to let you in on something my daughter told me one day. She said that it takes 2 weeks of repeated activity to develop a habit, and it takes a minimum of 45 days to break a habit.

With that said, I think if you talk gently with your H about how you feel about this, he will see what it is doing to you. Ask him what he needs from you. I don't think he's told you all his EN's. Find out what they are and meet them. I promise you that what ever the EN/EN's are, if they are met then he will leave the gaming world.

I did and I was bad off. I'm ashamed of how I let myself go during that time. I'm ashamed of how I treated my husband during that time. I was also in my 3rd round of major depression. Maybe your husband is walking the same path I was.

Anyway, I didn't want this to get so long, but I felt an overwhelming need to post to you tonight. This is my first post here at MB forums. I hope that what I have said has given you some insight into what your husband may be feeling, and I certainly hope that I didn't insult you by suggesting that you have not fully helped your husband reveal his core EN's.

Do take care and believe in yourself and your H.

GivingItMyAll

Dorry - Can I tell you something funny? I agree with every word you said ... word for word! The one thing I want to point out is that I don't blame my H (and never will) for my A. That's a decision I made on my own. (period) And, I also agree that I could've chosen a million other options, but I chose to have an A. For that, I (and my H) will be scarred for life. Those were the consequences of my very poor decision, indeed. That's why I've been so confused w/ what you & Bob have been saying lately. In fact, I was so troubled by Bob's comments that I asked my H last night if I've ever said anything or acted in any way that made him feel like I blamed him for my A or if I seem like I was entitled to it somehow. His response was an emphatic "no." He said he knows how sorry I am about what I've done and knows that if I could do things over, he knows I would never choose the same path. With everything said, do I believe that my H and I BOTH contributed to the downfall of our M? Absolutely! And, btw - "downfall" doesn't mean A, if that helps. OK, I think we've beaten on that poor horse enough. *whimper* As always, I appreciate your guidance and support ... and your happy smiley's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What's important now is that we're back and making progress again.

ML - Couldn't agree w/ you more, either. I'm starting to wonder if I'm relaying what I'm really thinking? All this writing stuff may not be the best way to convey my true thoughts. Things that make you go hmmm ...

GivingIt - I want to give your post its due respect, so I'll respond later tonight when I have more time. But, I want to let you know I did read it and am so glad and honored that you've chosen to post to me as your 1st post.

Will chat more later ...