T&L,

(first, I'll grumble to myself for losing the post I started to write to you, then I'll begin anew...).

I missed your post yesterday, apparently because I was composing a post at the same time - and was so narcissisticly interested in re-reading what I had posted that I didn't notice that one of God's prime grains had released a flash from that "light that so shines before men" etc.

Thanks for the quote from Amos. I can look at many things that have happened - in my life and in my wife's life and see, if not miracles, then some very unlikely train of events. I sometimes forget to pray as I used to pray in the beginning of all this - to just say "Lord, she's yours. Tell me how you want me to take care of her." (and by "she", I mean both my wife and my DD). Usually I pray "lord bless w and DD", but then I remember that I might be out there on the tip end of God's little finger and be the part that's supposed to carry out the blessing - which is a sobering thought.


That's great for you T&L, and a sign of great wisdom but I'll ask you the question my wife asks.

My wife, if you don't recall, was orphaned in war as a young child.

She has often asked "If it was God's will for me to be the only one - as a little child - to survive the massacre, then we must also say that it was God's will for the others, including little children, to die, and I can't accept that - or if I must accept that, then I must conclude that God is cruel." (She goes on to describe God as somebody with an ant farm, smashing things here and there just for the sport of seeing how the ants react to it.)

I have some answers to that, and my particular view then clashes with what the good Mr. Amos said. My view is that as long as evil is allowed in the world, then God's will is not perfectly done in the world. It seems simple to me. Jesus himself told us that God was not willing for any to perish... but some do, indeed perish.

But, my wife persists, asking something like this "Imagine God as a great big white-haired grandpa - the patriarch of a big family. He sits on the 4th floor balcony of the family's enormous mansion and looks out over all that goes on below. So, one day, for example, he sees the gardener killing one of his great-grand-children with a hoe - and he smiles (or frowns) down on the scene and does nothing to stop it. Would we call him a good man?

So, W does not buy the "evil in the world is not God's will" POV, because she remembers that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he knows that the evil ones are wreaking havok on the weak, gentle children - and holds back his infinite power and goodness rather than restraining the limited, but evil power of the evil-doers. Still, she would conclude that he is cruel.

She doesn't want to believe that, but sees no way out.

Sifting the grains: surely the little children are innocent, and yet many of them surely suffer. Of course, you could argue that they are not lost, but for somebody who wants to see and feel things here and now with her own eyes and hands, the idea of little children, after suffering intensely, going off to an invisible place where everything is peachy, is not very satisfying.

But, I, for my own part, appreciate the empowering feeling of being weak - weak in God is perfectly un-weak. Thanks very much for reminding me. Faith is faith, not knowing, just believing, inexplicable (as it must be).

-AD

You are kind to say the first, and perceptive to say the second. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't feel terribly successful in all this. I feel that if I were truely disciplined, then I would have saved this marriage. Right now, just getting the sleep I need would make me a much better Dad - a much better worker, and much more ready to take advantage of opportunities of all kinds. I'm disappointed in myself for a general lack of self-discipline. I almost said "lapse", but I think "lack" is more accurate.

I am, or was, an intelligent person - I mean in a one-in-a-hundred kind of way (not one-in-a-million or even one-in-a-thousand, but yes, one-in-a-hundred in intelligence), but my development as a person - from a young age never fully took advantage of this gift (and it is a gift, given to me, not something I have any right to brag about). Instead, it made it very easy for me to be lazy - since most things were always easy for me (that is, intellectual things). I rarely studied when I was in school - because I could make a B or C without doing anything at all, and was foolish enough to think that a B (or even a C) was "good enough".

Then, in my work, I did great when I was having fun, but coasted when things became more mundane (and after 20+ years, things will always become mundane sometimes and if one coasts, they will stay mundane. I haven't had a raise in something like 5 years - and for the most part, I don't care. That's frightening.

If I was 100% of what I could be, my wife would never let go of me. So, yes, she has fault in this, but still I had the ability to live in a way that would overcome her faults, but my own faults hobbled me.

And as a Dad, I know that I could be much much better - much more proactive. Right now, I mostly just react to my daughter's expressed needs - rather than truely looking ahead and trying to plan experiences for her that will help her develop. Honestly, my wife does a much better job of that. Yes, my wife is unstable sometimes, but her underlying force and action are very good - and considering the obsticles she has to overcome, I think she does very well indeed as a parent.

But I do very much appreciate your kind and encouraging words. I'm the kind of guy who works better on positive rather than negative commentary. If somebody says "you did good", it inspires me to do better. Thanks for noticing and caring.

-AD

Update:

W seemed much better today - not that she didn't cry, but she seemed to cry more constructively. I'll explain below (at the very end for those who want to skip to the "good part", which I will not assert is good, but rather will confess that it has a better chance of being good than this part).

DD is sleeping here tonight. The reason that W gave for suggesting that - is that needs to do some things on campus tomorrow - seeing professors and advisors and such in offices back and forth across the campus - and she tried to do it today with DD and found it very difficult. Everything is swamped there right now, the computers are running very slowly. They have a lot of new students, all the parking lots are full, everyplace you go to do something there is a long line and it takes forever since the systems are overloaded. She thinks it might be better earlier in the day - and much easier without a 4-year-old in tow. I can certainly understand that. She wants to do it in the morning and she expects to finish by 11am. So, I agreed to stay home tomorrow and keep DD so W can do her stuff on campus. I wanted to take off at the end of this week anyway - since Monday is a holiday (and my holiday in odd-numbered years). But, I wanted to take off and do something which is quite difficult with a 4-year-old around here too. Now, in all reality, I don't know where W is right now, or where she will be tomorrow morning. But that was her explanation for suggesting that DD sleep here tonight etc.

This would have been unheard of not long ago, so I have a shadow of worry, and a shadow of doubt. As I have a long w/e with DD, that will be W,Th,F,Sa,Su,Mo night with me all in a row. It is very strange and more than a little worrisome that w would allow this to happen without any signs of distress. I worry about suicide, actually. Yesterday, she said "Sometimes I think DD would be better off without me". I would be much more worried except for a significant convo that I had with W this evening - and some planning ahead that she seems to be doing (which is an indication against suicide).

Anyway, since this is W's day, I suggested that she come by here after class (about 8:30) and put DD to bed and then go home - which she did. DD fell asleep under her Mama's arm listening to her Mama read to her (which I don't do nearly as well as my W does, I confess). Then W left (supposedly to her apt) - about 10:30 - seeming in a reasonably OK state of mind.

But...

The interesting convo to which I alluded above... ensued upon W's arrival tonight after her class, or rather after she was supposedly in class, because I really don't know where she went or what she did. She arrived here looking as if she had been crying - and said that she had, in fact, been crying in the car as she drove. I gave her a hug, she she relucantly accepted, but held for some 10 seconds or more - until DD came running in full of her usual sparkles.

W said that she had come to a more intense realization of the choice she was making now - and the effect that it would have on DD. She said there were so many things that she wanted for her child and she realized that be divorsing, she would leaving our daughter with some degree of rootlessness - that she herself suffered from due to the circumstances of her life, but she she did not want DD to experience. This, by the way, is not an entirely new thing for her to say, but she seemed to experience it in a new way. So, the coaster rolls uphill tonight, it seems. She suggested that we each go back to the well-used device of the pro and con sheet - writing down the various advantages/disadvantages of the D for each of us 3.

Then, after putting DD to bed, she left. I asked her "why not sit down now and spend an hour doing that together". She basicly said "Don't push me. Make the list on your own and I'll make mine."

I don't feel like we've turned any corner here, but perhaps we have briefly sighted a corner and somebody's asking if we should turn it or not.

I hope and pray that W is ok. I'm very worried when she willingly parts with DD - I'm getting more worried by the hour - very worried indeed. Maybe I should call her. Best case, I wake her up and she becomes annoyed with me.

Maybe I should.

-AD

AD,

I'm sorry it has come to this for you.

Can I ask a question? You keep saying your wife has nobody to call on but you, what about God? Isn't HE there for HER to call on too?

God is listening to YOUR prayers, that HE will do whatever it takes to get HER attention. And I believe He is trying to do that, only thing is, I see you stepping on His toes.

I know that you don't like to see the woman you love hurt, but that is sometimes what it takes for people to turn to God. When they finally realise they have nowhere to look but UP. Everytime you sit and listen to her struggles is a time she could have turned to God and talked to Him instead.

I did the same thing, and yes, it hurt, and yes it was hard, but I had to remove myself from my ex-h's life and let God do the work, granted my ex-h didn't turn to God, and stayed on the path he was going, but your wife isn't even turning to the OM, she's not turning to booze, she's not turning to drugs, but she's reaching out, even if your not there for her and even if she chooses NOT to call on other friends God is still there for her to reach out and talk to.

Again, It's not easy to let go and TRUST God, but that is what you really need to learn to do right now. And allow God to comfort her, so that she can learn to see Him in a new way. And in that she is still even discussing God is a good thing, now move out of His WAY, and trust THAT HE KNOWS WHAT She needs more than you do. And turning to HIM is what she needs to learn how to do right now.

Maybe the next time she calls wanting to chat, just let her know your busy, or that you have plans, and at the same time suggest she read Isaiah 54.

You can say something like "I'm sorry, but you didn't want me as your husband anymore, you wanted someone else, I'm sorry your hurting right now, but you know, so am I, and sitting here listening to you doesn't help me to heal my hurts any faster. Maybe when I'm not hurting so much it will be easier, but right now, I can't do this, I can't be here for you, like I was when we were married, and I still held out hope that things would be different."

I know that may sound mean, but really it's not, it's the best thing you can do for her, and for you right now, it will help her to see just how her actions have hurt you.

She's having a meltdown because GOD IS WORKING!!

Who knows, maybe later the two of you will get back together, never say never....when God is working.

TR,

(TR, I think I edited some of my posts rather heavily while you were composing your post, so you might have to re-read to see what I added. Sorry.)

You may be very right. But, as I said above, perhaps I'm God's instrument (actually I said little finger tip). As the bible says when somebody comes to your door and asks for bread, you don't way "Go, be blessed and be full". You've got to give 'em the bread - but it would certainly be wonderful if she would overcome her anger with God. She believes, but she doesn't want to talk about what she believes.

Oh, and the discussion with my wife that I quoted above - about the nature of God, was not recent, but it has been repeated from time to time over the last 7 years, and as far as I know, it is still representative of my W's thoughts on the subject.

-AD

Wow. A very heavy question, and one which has tormented both philosophers and Joe Q. Average for millenia! Can one believe in an omnipotent God in light of the existence of evil? Would you mind if I didn't evey try to answer that one at work? I doubt very much if I'm going to settle all the questions in everyone's (or even anyone's) minds, including my own, but I can tell you what I think I understand about it. Which isn't much. But later. Not tonight. Just wanted you to know that I saw your question and it's percolating.

And no, I came into your thread long after you'd given background info, so didn't really know a lot about your wife or her background, only that it seemed you tried to be more understanding towards her because of the difficulties in it. Is she from another country?

t&l

Yes, at least 3 or 4 other countries - depending on how you count. One of her problems is trying to figure you where "home" is. She often says lately (said it again tonight), that in America she feels like a branch that's been cut off - and is wilting. OM, while not from her home country is from a neighboring country and grew up with the same language and similar culture. That's probably the #1 factor in his attractiveness to her - aside from the fact that he thinks she hung the stars. I'm at a disadvantage there. I'd love to believe that of her, but I've lived with her, and he hasn't.

She was orphaned in the first country in a war - was adopted internationally into a 2nd country, but her (adoptive) parents then moved to a 3rd country - 2nd and 3rd "countries" being constituent republics of an empire (you can guess which empire, but it counts as the 4th country, if you wish) - which then broke up - leaving her in a country who's official language her family does not speak. (They speak the language of the empire). Then, she was sent abroad to school (here) where I met her ... etc. etc.

She bacame a US citizen only a month ago. We were waiting to D after she got that.

-AD

And she didn't! There. I said what you were too polite to verbalize! Star-hanging is overrated anyway.



Too bad I'm not from immigration... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Was her heart ever in being married, or was citizenship what she wanted all along? You're being very kind. You probably already know that, but it doesn't hurt to hear it said.

t&l

I'm wondering if this thread is the best forum for an answer to your wife's question. Any time you start talking religion or Biblical interpretation, the potential for controversy arises. This thread is about you, your WWW (you have a Waffling Wayward Wife!), your daughter, your marriage and divorce. I think inserting a response on this subject could be the ultimate threadjack, and there is essential support that you receive on your thread that you shouldn't be deprived of because people are talking about something else. Is there another, more appropriate place where this can be discussed? I'm open to suggestions. I just don't want to turn your support thread into something entirely different, which, while it may be worthwhile for us to understand, has a far different purpose than the one for which you logged on here in the first place.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&L,

Just so you know, this issue has been addressed before.
I've asked the same questions in the past, and he's assured me that wasn't the case.

I'd like to address something here, that has to do with both your comment here, and your wife's beliefs about God. As I see them running together along the same lines.

You couldn't save it on your own, your wife's free will played a part in this too, and we, like God really can't force our will on others, we might try sometimes but ultimately, it doesn't work. Yes, God could, but He doesn't.

Yes, God is ALL powerful, and YES He could very easily come in an let loose His wrath on those who do evil things.

But then we must look at what God see's as evil and what mankind see's as evil.

God see's someone who lies to others as sinful, and deserving of death, to God one lie is no less evil than someone going in and massacring an entire city. It's a different type of evil, but to Him, it's still evil.

A lie will massacre a trust, it takes a relationship and destroy's the foundation, just as someone who goes in and destroys an entire city, it also destroy's the foundation.

If a marriage is a community of people working together, one lie can destroy the community, just as one bomb could destroy a community. And in the same way a community could be rebuilt starting with rebuilding the entire foundation which takes time, a marriage is the same way. The foundation has been destroyed, and it will have to be rebuilt. And both take time and commitment from those within the community.

In your wife's case growing up in a war torn country and her being the only survivor, that foundation was not meant to be rebuilt. God looks on the heart of man, look at Sodom and Gomorrah, God looked for even TEN RIGHTEOUS men, and found one man, Lot, worthy of saving. God was even willing to save his entire family, but even that wasn't meant to be. His wife chose to look back and was also destroyed. But, God looked down on your wife's homeland and choose to save her, just as He did Lot. Why her and not others? I don't know, maybe because their purpose was fullfilled, maybe the hearts of the leaders were evil and heading down a path worse than what your wife actually experienced. To which her life would have been much worse than what it was.

God saw something in her heart even as a young child that He knew was good, and He saved HER for that purpose. And God took her, just as He did with Lot, to another land in order to protect her and raise her up for His glory.

But we have evil in this world, because God created Free will in mankind, He gives us the choice to follow Him or not. He does not force us to choose Him, so yes, even though it is God's Will that NONE should perish, it is man's WILL that is the issue. God says "yes, it's MY WILL, MY desire, that none should perish, but I'm not going to force MY WILL on you, you have to decide for yourself, you have to make the choice."

And God's wrath, even now is held back, but one day that will not be the case.

Sometimes God uses one country to destroy another, and then sometimes He uses a natural disaster to show His power and His wrath as judgement, but even then it's held back in some cases.

Have you or your wife ever done research on her homeland? What things were like before it was destroyed? What things are like now in that country? Would it have been worse for her to live in what it is now and maybe even what it was headed to had things not changed?

TR,

There are a few comments in your post with which I agree, but in general, I am quite dismayed by your comments. To clearly explain why, and to offer a clear view of what I believe, requires a very carefully thought out response, and at first, I didn't feel up to it - hence my dismay.

TR, I'm sorry, it would take a long time to address this matter and it deserves a serious response which I am not up to at the moment. There is much more to be said. Would you mind if we took this discussion over to a new thread? It's important. I can't promise to join in the discussion, but I'm sure some others will join in if it's posted under it's own title.

Also, I'd like to keep this thread just for an accounting of what most likely are the last few days of my marriage.

-AD

Folks,

I logged on here 2 hours ago to post an update, but instead got caught up in the interesting and vital and heavy and weighty... but, for my purposes here today, tangential discussions of religious belief etc.

Suffice it to say that I'm 47 years old and grew up in the church and have very firmly set views which are not likely to be quickly changed. If my views are in error, that error will have to be addressed at another time in another place. This is MarriageBuilders, and my marriage is my focus here.

I'll regroup and come back to give an update.

-AD

Thinking of you...AD. Hope you get to enjoy some time with your DD over the weekend.

Update:

I, as usual, got to bed at 3am last night..

I was awakened at 6am by the phone ringing. It was my wife, who had not slept much but had been watching or reading about the situation down in NO and was pretty upset about it - wanted somebody to talk to.

I won't go into all the details, but she was most upset about the looting - raping and pillaging - the lawless segment of the population. She said that she never wanted to visit that city for the rest of her life (if it is rebuilt). Of course, she also had some words about lack of preparation and slowness of federal response.

I don't want to get into a debate about that here, but just to say that she felt very upset about what is happening down there - and above all, the lawlessness. She observed that during the blackouts in the north-east a couple of years ago, there was no looting in NYC - and wondered what was different here.

Focussing on the marriage aspects of this phone call, I can say that when she felt in distress, she called me. Also, I was very glad to hear that she was home and that she was all-right. Last night I wasn't so sure.

She went to the campus to try to do her business there, but found that several people she needed to see were gone - making a long weekend even longer. She came by at 10 or so, hung around for awhile talking more about the situation in N.O. - and left with DD. She said "I'll see you tomorrow". I reminded her that this is my weekend and DD should be here tonight - and she replied "tomorrow". This is good in one respect. It means that whatever suicidal impulse has completely passed - and whatever breach she had made between herself and DD (in which she was saying that DD would be better off without her) is healed. I was very worried that she was so willing for DD to be here last night, and that worry has been put to rest.

OK, now, I'll go do some very much needed work outside.
(I'm taking off today, and have done nothing constructive yet)

-AD

Thanks FF.

I feared I had offended you (you know how) and you were bypassing my threads. It's kind of you to post.

-AD

We can pat each other on the back, OK. How kind of you to say that I am kind. There! But seriously, it is kind of you and I do appreciate it, but since you are basing your conclusion on my self-reports of all the kind things I do (which omit almost all of the unkind things I do), well... I may deserve it less than you think. I can't view myself objectively.

Everything is OK with immigration, as TR said, we have addressed this issue before. Shocking truth (since you seem to have missed chapter 1) is that my wife was 19 when we married and had no idea how the immigration laws work. And, every form she ever submitted to the INS (now called USCIS, a part of DHS, by the way) was researched, figured out, and filled out by me. She just signed 'em.

And, any marriage that produces a child, must be considered to be legitemate. This is my daughters' only family. It would be demeaning to her to suggest that it was only about immigration.

This is, in my opinion, the best home for WW, since she was somewhat rootless in her former life. It's not that she's well-rooted here, yet. She was ambivelent about become a citizen, but in the end this is where she wants to be.

WW never wanted to come here. She was sent here by her parents. But since she has lived her since the age of 17, it has become her home.

No, her heart was not in being married. From her perspective, her parents "made her" marry me. A more charitable view is that she married me to please her parents, who wanted an American son-in-law. Now, you know why I thought it would be interesting for her to talk to you - even though I don't know that it would influence her toward preserving the marriage.

-AD

pat

pat

patpat

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PatPat

PatPat

PATPAT

PATPAT

PATPATPATPATPATPAT

PATPATPATPATPATPATnudge

PATPATPATPATPATPATWHACK

WHACK

WHACKPUMMELPUMMELPUMMELWHACK

PUMMELWHACKGOUGECLOBBERWHACKBOOT

Just so long as all this back patting doesn't deteriorate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Of course you omit certain things you have done, in relating your story. You certainly don't think you've heard every misdeed of MINE in The Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid, do you? But in reading your threads, there is a pervading sense of decency about you that comes through--in what you have done, and what you have still hoped for in spite of everything. Acknowledging that doesn't erase your own mistakes, any more than those mistakes diminish or negate the good that you have tried to accomplish. PAT!

t&l

T&L,

Tnx! I hope you're right about me. <pat>

AD, I don't offend easily <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have not even kept up (shhhh)with t&l's thread. Read some for the first time today. I have been caught up in my own whirlwind of extreme pain. But I do try to at least let my friends know I am thinking about them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />