I keep changing the thread title, as tomorrow became today and today became yesterday. The river of time grinds on, dragging the silt and the flotsam of our lives.

-------------

Yes, tomorrow, we file jointly, or more precisely, I file and she files along with me so that it is "uncontested". We should then be D'd in 30 days.

Sad day.

-AD

Hi AD,

I'm sorry you're so bummed. Trust me when I tell you, "I know how you feel." I've updated my thread, too, with the fact that my D is moving forward. I think we're living parallel lives, somehow.

I wish I knew what to tell you to make you feel better. (then I could tell myself the same thing!)

Hang in there.

svb

svb,

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't even know how I feel.

I'm sticking to little practical thoughts - like now I'm going to finally buy a washer, since I don't think I'm going to ask W to do my laundry anymore. Stupid thing to think of now. It's all I've got, the practical things. Because the emotional world is lost to me right now. I'm going to have to robitify myself for awhile.

I remember promising to sleep more. The past week, 3am has been the earliest. I'm really worn down. I've got to execute - carry out some reasonable sequence of actions to make something of the life that I have been given. I'm truly grateful to be alive. I want to get out from under all the burdens I've been carrying - at least the unimportant ones (like debt), and start taking actions which carry me someplace I want to go. Not that I'm sure where that is yet, LOL, but I have some ideas of the general direction. I know my daughter is important - and she is suffering through all this.

The other day, I had brought home a box of CD's that were at the other house and was looking through them. In the old days (pre-marriage), I kept everything in (a kind of) order. Now, lots of CD's are in the wrong case or in no case at all. It doesn't matter. I was looking at those and feeling sad. I look around at all the stuff here and it just seems so futile to accumulate things. All the boxes of books I moved over here have been dumped out and are in piles here and there - waiting to be sorted. I need to clean house - get rid, not only of things accumulated during my marriage - but all kinds of old baggage.

My daughter is the only good that touches this place. Whatever is not building her up - is just in the way.

I appologise for not commenting on your thread. I know it's going to be hard to go do those things with your H. At least I have a lawyer so I'm not so worried about making mistakes.

The final papers are all here, but I haven't even read the final draft. The lawyer had better have gotten it right.

=AD

AD,

I feel for you man. I really do.

Hoping nothing but the very best for you future.

Thanks, Cymanca.

Since I posted an updated on grey's campfire, i'm just pasting this around on a couple of my threads.

I went by to pick her up, to drive to the lawyer's office together. When I got there, she wasn't dressed (at 2:30). She said something like "Oh, you're here. I thought you weren't going to come." She looked GOOD wearing a pink camasole kind of thing. I waited while she changed. While we drove, we talked about what we would do if we stayed married - and she was still talking about that when we drove up in the parking lot. She said she felt "stomach sick".

We went in, and the secretary showed us to a tiny conference room. We sat at the table, the 3 of us. DD4, blissfully unaware, was drawing on some kind of magnetic sketch pad that they offered her to play with - so she would have something to sign too. W said "Are we really doing this? It doesn't seem real." I just looked at her.

We signed, and left. As we drove, she asked what it takes to stop it now. "Do we both have to agree to stop it?" My reply "I don't know." She wanted to go somewhere and eat. I declined, on the basis that I needed to get back to work. When we got to her place, she even looked a little sick.

Whatever.

To stop this, she's got to appeal to me with full force, not with hints. She's got to say plainly "I want to stay married to you. This was all a mistake. I will do whatever it takes." But it ain't gonna happen.

-AD

AD, I'm so sorry. I haven't been following your thread (sorry, it's long!), but I know you hoped for something different. You know and I know half a commitment won't work.

Can't help but feel she's making a mistake. Don't hesitate to let her feel the consequences.

Thanks for your kind comments, A.M.

One woman's mistake is another woman's liberating choice. I think there will come to be a time where she thinks it was a mistake.

-AD

Some woman, unknown to you today, will someday bless her for the choice she made.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to hear the news AD.

Only thing I ask is does she know what YOU would want to say
stop now? I wonder if she was asking that?


maybe she needs you to spell it out for her?

In any event you've been through the hoops mate, hope it will all be better for you in the future no matter what happens.

aussie2,

Well, I had two goes at 'splainin' my vision to her. Today in the car, she asked "If we don't divorce, how do you envision our life together".

I replied as follows :

I don't want to just survive, but if we stay married, I would be totally devoted to her - to making her happy and living a good life together. I went on to say that I envisioned a 2nd child ... and we talked about that a little. I have no objection to her being a stay-at-home mom, and if she wants to work, that would be OK too, but we would use her pay for "extras" - like vacations, so that she didn't feel any presure. I want to get out of debt and sell the big house in any case - so we don't have so much of our income tied up just keeping the roof over our heads.

Much of this, we agreed on.

I have a number of times explained that OM has to be totally and forever out of our lives. She says she understands that and thinks it is reasonable.

Her main fear, I think is that I will always hold something over her head so that she is "the bad guy". The only thing that will prove that this is not going to happen is the passage of time. She doesn't believe that I can and will "reset" our relationship to "zero" and go from there.

-AD

Sorry AD..

I am coming to believe though that this path is less damaging than painful false recoveries and even more scary settling for unacceptable ....

I am sorry for you
you have as we say round here..fought the good fight..

I hope you rest soon and that it is a peaceful one...

ARK

AD,

I am very sorry too, but life has been so painful for you since I have been on this board.

I mean you haven't really slept and your job has suffered, I am sure your health is suffering and above all the joy has been sapped right out of you.

Time to reach deep inside and find hope again my friend.

Hope, new dreams, new goals...a new beginning.

I have much to say about divorce only being a piece of paper but I don't want to get strung up and burned at the stake so that is all I will say about the divorce itself.

As far as the disarray of your home and belongings, take it one step at a time. It will take awhile to find the ambition to put your home in order, but do try to take one small task on daily.

(((((AD)))))

{{{AD}}} Thinking of you today. I think what ARK said is true and very likely will apply to me as well. I, like you, have a hard time giving up even with all the pain. Here's to a new and better life for you and DD.

ark^^,

I'm almost sure that this is better than false recoveries. Most of our marriage has been a false recovery. But, when I comtemplate that, had I walked away in the first year, our DD would not have been born, then ... I think it was certainly worth the suffering. That thought leads to the next, which is if we have another long false recovery, another wonderful child might be the result - and dispite the trumpeting of the "perfect people" who will say that no child should be brought into anything but a pristine and perfect situation, I don't agree. Ask neak and neaksis over on T&L's thread if they think it was a bad thing that they were born - into what was at that time a very troubled marriage.

weaver,

Ah sister, you have suffered a lot - thanks for stopping by to put in a kind word. I don't think I'm in too bad of shape - and this past few months has not been the most painful time of my marriage. I'm ok, or at least going to be OK.

And, it's not over til it's over - and yet, as you say it's a piece of paper. The heart beats, and the sun rises and sets, unaffected by these papers. But our paths will diverge, because our minds are changed. I feel for DD - that she was there, sitting at the table, playing innocently while we, with pen-strokes, cut apart her family.

FF,

I know you are in a painful spot right now. I appologize that I haven't kept up with your situation nor commented much. Thanks for rising above your own pain to say a kind word to me.


-------------- And now, on a lighter note!! ---------------

Why are all you ladies posting on my thread? I'm laughing now, really! Where are the guys? They are over posting on the thread of some lady who is on the brink of divorce! LOL. I don't know why I'm laughing. Probably it will have the unintended consequence of chasing you all away. LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, so here is my personals ad :

Depressed, overweight man, 47, almost divorced. Used to be a good worker, and still has a job. Drives a dirty minivan. The "check engine" light has been on for months. (I need a "check engine" light in the middle of my forehead, and if I had one, it would be on.) Hobbies include looking out the windows at his overgrown yard. Also enjoys surfing the internet til 3am. +++Has hair+++. No pic, cause right now he needs a haircut. Seeks a lady who will encourage him to be his best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> LOL. But he's a nice guy, really.

-AD

AD... it's been said many times. She doubts your ability to forgive, but worse still, she doubts her ability to forgive herself. I guess that's hard work. And she has a problem in her character she's afraid to address. You can't go anywhere with that floating around.

It's so strange to me, the two of you talking about rebuilding on the way to get divorced.

Whenever I'm shiftless and depressed, and I have all these neglected "have-to"s hanging over my head, taking care of just one or two goes a long way.

GC

Well gee, AD, that would sure peak MY interest! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Well, GC, you may be right - about her forgiving herself, but to get to that point, she has to believe she did something wrong - which she sometimes does and sometimes doesn't. When she begins to think that she did something wrong, she reaches within herself and finds something that I did wrong and it expands to fill her mind with righteous indignation to the point where she can quickly forget what it was that she might have done wrong.

Thanks for the tip on getting out from under the pile. My old MB friend GnomeDePlume used to advise me "Just put one foot in front of the other". He's now posting on the post-D board. Maybe you should peek in over there.

So, I'm going to unload some stuff from the van and go whack some of the verdant life out back.

-AD

I just thought of an idea - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - stickers with "check Engine" - or even little button-battery-powered illuminated thingies. It would be worth a laugh or too for some of us to wear those things. At least I'm getting a laugh out of it right now.

had I walked away in the first year, our DD would not have been born, then ...

geez AD...I'm not saying good things don't come out of hanging in there...
You know I am very pro-marriage.....
but you have worked hard
and you have found your boundaries...
you have moved with honor and respect...and earned your way out..

Lots of people stay in not perfect situations...and as long as their eyes are wide open...
then blessings to them....
and some know or come to know they can not survive there...
and if you were to find yourself there..you'd have my support...
as long as you know what you are getting in for ..that's the whole key...

either choice is right...
and no one can say differently................

leaving the first year can be too knee jerky for anyones personal recovery..and God knows I'm the last one to think children need perfection..for there is none...they just need people to love them....

ps...your personal Ad...

I think you sound adorable...
and the biggest attraction there is out there...

BEING HONEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ARK

In all the years of your marriage, HP has never once brought up my OM or my desires to have him dead, and dangled them over my head. Of course, he's got plenty of other stuff that he complains about regularly and incessantly, but he's never touched the "big stuff" EVER. So it can be done. Do YOU think you could do it? Not sure how you could convince her, but you can at least tell her it's been done before! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure Neak and Neaksis were glad they were born, even into a den of spitting cobras. Their brothers are glad to be alive, too. I'M the one that feels guilty about it, for their sakes, not mine. For MY sake, I'm thrilled to have them, and cherish every moment we can spend together. Generally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Take care.

t&l

Nicely put, Dear Sir or Madam, as the case may be:

When I come to the end of The Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid, I may seek permission to quote your wise analysis of people who choose to stay where things aren't inherently all that great. In my marriage, at this point in my life, my eyes are wide open, or at least as wide as someone can hold them when she's half-asleep all the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Thank you for your blessings.

t&l

Hi T&L, ark^^, FF and silent friends,

Proper replies to your comments will follow shortly, but first...


Well, I looked at my other thread, was going to post my progress for the day, but decided to do it here. If somebody misses it over there, I'll give them a free ticket to this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, I went out a whacked the bushes with a lopper a bit, then realized that the chainsaw was called for, and since it's electric and all the long extension cords are (were) at the other house, I had a shower and set out on errands.

I picked up a washing machine, good basic, solid old-fashioned (cheap), but new.

Stopped by the grocery and got myself some tasty food.

Hit the other house, got the mail, extension cords, grill <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> charcoal and whatnot.

Came home, unloaded. Now, it is a nice thing to know, and I doubted it before, but I can, all by myself, unload and install a washing machine - at least on the first floor. Upon investigation, the $50 used dryer I bought a few weeks ago was condemned, and I returned to the store for a dryer. Now, my laundry is spinning and I don't have to go to the laundrymat or ask my wife (for 29 more days) to do it.

I think that was a reasonble afternoon and evenings accomplishment.

I still have got to move the fridge from the other house. I've been making do with a little dorm-sized fridge for 3 months now. After that, this will be a pretty much fully equipped house.

I bought a big chunk of meat at the store, and tomorrow, I might see what I can do with the grill - maybe invite some strangers in from the highways and headges.

-AD

Ok, alright. I bare my soul and what do I get? Sarcasm! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

BTW, that's "piques", not "peaks", (I think).

-AD

Maybe I could have done it. It would be cool if I could.


Aaaawww. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Wow! He's the MAN!

Seriously, I wonder now if I had just told her calmly, "OM must go", and then carried on with my life being the best H I could be.... Actually, I don't have to wonder, I think she would have been pleased with me. <sigh>

-AD

Hi AD,

Just wanted to add my support to you and your situation. I am not even going to attempt to come up with something profound given the eloquence of the heavy hitters that have graced your thread. Though I will steal something from one of your American Presidents, Roosevelt I believe, that has always captured a spirit which I attempt to emulate and seems appropriate for your labors:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

I salute your efforts both past and present AD.

Thanks, Binder for the kind and supportive words.

I'm feeling OK right now.

Sleep will soon be attempted.

-AD

Not sleeping yet.

I just realized that when this is final - in about 29 days now, I'm likely to have a bit of a meltdown. I need to save vacation for my holiday visitation times with DD, but I'll probably need to use some time off for the meldown. But maybe I can just skip it. Seems a waste of time, LOL.

We filed for D - 7 years and one month after we became engaged, and it will be final before the 7th anniversary. I don't think it's a 7 year itch. It's more like taking off the itchy shirt after 7 years of scratching. Lots of metaphorical possibilities here.

-AD

I guess that would depend on the height of the peaks her interest could attain once it was piqued! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l, the English teachers' daughter

A few days have passed and I don't see any indication that W is going to make any last ditch efforts. I'm not surprised.

She just got off the phone - calling me about a bump on DD's lip.

Sometimes she calls - and I get the clear impression that she's just talking to be talking. For example, yesterday afternoon she called to suggest that she bring or send an assortment of DD's clothes, so that DD doesn't have to carry everything back and forth when she comes to my place. I agreed, and thanked her. She went on and on about it. It was clear to me that she just wanted to talk - and quickly agreeing with her was not going to end the conversation. After a half-hour, she asked what I planned to do that evening, and I replied that as soon as I got off the phone I was going out to do yard work until it got dark. I think she took the hint.

Today, W came by here - because my office had no power and I was at home. She dropped DD off while she (W) went to the university. But she came an hour early to use my computer 'cause her internet was down. And said she was hungry, so I cooked her a quick bite. (I don't know why I did that.) She still has not arranged childcare - is thinking of taking DD to class with her for one class that meets twice a week in the afternoon - and has signed up for a night class too. So, I've got DD for a couple of hours tues and thurs nights now, and DD stays overnight on Wednesday. So, for the duration of the semester, I would be seeing DD thrice weekly (once overnight), plus half the weekends. If I'm a nice guy, maybe I should suggest switching nights so that I have DD overnight on Tuesday nights. Maybe. I don't think WW realized yet that I have DD on Labor day. It's in the schedule, but I'm sure she doesn't realize that I have a 4-day weekend with DD coming up. And, would I be a bad guy to actually go somewhere with DD - and actually be gone for 3 days? Oops, too much yardwork and stuff to do - not practical. <sigh>

Hellooooo!

I ran you all off, probably by describing myself a bit too, er, unflatteringly.

Well, I hope none of you was in N'awlin's, or Boluxi, or Gulfport...

-AD

AD, I just don't know what to say. Your W is out of her mind, and I feel sad for her. She halfway knows what she's giving up, but can't figure a way not to do it anyway.

GC

That's the way it seems to me. She has always had a hard time visualizing a situation that she is not yet in. She only knows the now, it seems.

She will get an envelope in the mail one day and it will hit her that she has divorced me (or technically, that I have divorced her).

I haven't kept my reports up to date here. Sunday afternoon she called, and said that she hadn't heard from me since Friday and wondered if she should call or wait for me to call. I replied, "Well, I had no reason to call. Why are you calling?". She replied "I'm sad." She had a lot more to say, but honestly, I forget what it was. I'm way past the point of making notes when she calls and then spending hours analysing (sp?) what she said.

-AD

What's the "toughest" you've gotten toward her in all this?

I remember Pepperband describing the crisis in her M not too long ago. The part that struck me was where she said her H tried to justify his A, but knew that if he did, she'd rip him a new one, and that he'd have it coming.

I don't mean to suggest your W would respond well to righteous indignation.

But AD, I don't know what your limits are. I don't mean to imply you don't have them. I just don't know what they are.

What will you not accept into your life?

GC

GC,

I'm not sure what you mean by "tough".


I have told her that I do not intend to spend my life alone - and that I would be overjoyed if I found it possible to even have more children. I think that shook her. I don't know if it is "tough".

I've told her that I don't intend to have anything to do with her nor to even think of her except as it relates to our child. I don't think she liked the sound of that.

"Tough" is divorcing her, like I said I would. I've told her that OM must go. On Feb 21, she promised NC "as long as we are married". By March 21, she had visited OM's appartment (for 1 to 2 hours each visit) a dozen times. She knew that I was finding this out, but she didn't know how (and still doesn't).

The factors that lead me to leave were that
- She broke her NC promise.
- She threw away her ring.
- She treated me very badly while we were on vacation back in May - in a particular situation that I don't want to get into here.
- She routinely insulted me, told me that she hated me and flew into rages.

Actually, the first one was enough.

She was not only going to OM's appartment when she was supposed to be in class (and flunking the class too - for which I paid), but also one night that I know of, leaving the house at midnight and going to OM's place for 2 hours - while DD and I were sleeping. I will not accept the condition of living with a wife who sneaks out to see her boyfriend at night while I'm sleeping. Of course, any contact with OM was unacceptable, but that was especially egregious (sp?).

Perhaps I could give her more righteous indignation, but, in defense of my emotional health, I've detached from her to the point that I really don't care what she does as long as it doesn't affect me. I'm too far down the slope to divorce.

Before we filed, she was saying "we might as well go ahead and file - we'll still have 30 days to change our minds". I told her "If we file, I'm not going to change my mind. If you want to change your mind, do it now." It may sound absolutely trivial in the face of the seriousness of all this for our child, but if she's going to let me pay the $250 filing fee - with the intent of coming up on the last day and saying "let's reconsider", well, I just don't want to play that stupid game.

Am I saying "I paid for a divorce and I'm going to get one!"? No, but I'm tired of the roller-coaster. Of course, while we're married, we're married - but there has to be some point recognized as the end - and for me, filing was (almost) it. (I'm still wearing my ring, and will until we are really D'ed).

Now there was a night, about 2 weeks ago, when she spent the night here. To be terribly blunt about it, she was previously using "Depo-provera", and I don't know if she is up-to-date on her shots. It is extremely unlikely, but if she turns up in the next 20-odd days with a positive pg test, I would put the D on hold until I know more about that.

I can't think of anything else, other than abject begging, that would turn this around in my mind.

=AD

Hm. By tough I meant being clear about what you'll let in your life. Sounds like you've done it. I didn't mean you should yell and scream or get nasty.

I guess something about your plan to fully detach from her, but not until the D is done, seems peculiar.

GC

GC,

Peculiar? As in, not the usual thing? Or what kind of peculiar?

I'm not exactly liking this path, but I don't know what else I can do. I can shut her out completely - did that for awhile, but now, it doesn't matter much. I'm not trying to "plan B" her - not trying to change her - just trying to be a good dad and let everything go as smoothly as possible for our daughter's sake.

I don't think she's doing anything with OM now. She's desparate for some kind of support, and she doesn't seem to be throwing herself into his arms. She says she doesn't trust him.

UPDATE:

My wife had a meltdown today - pretty bad. I was very worried about her. She brought DD to me - since it was my night - but I could tell she was doing very poorly. She called me on the way home from dropping DD off - was crying hysterically. I was afraid for her safety driving, but she got home OK. I called her a couple more times. She's cutting DD off right now. I hate it when I see her get that way. But, she seemed to be getting better - talking cynically, but not crying anymore. She wants to take DD to story-time at the library in the morning, so she's thinking ahead, making plans - trying to get it together. This was hard for me to handle. She has nobody to call on - or rather nobody she trusts to call on. She has some friends, but when she gets like this, she won't call anybody - because she doesn't want them to see her like this. Only me, and I'm not sure she would always call me. She's afraid that I'll take advantage of her weakness to try to take custody. I will not do that. That would kill her.

I tried to reassure her that I'm not trying to take custody - and as long as she's up to it, she'll be the #1 parent. If she has a problem, depression or whatever, and she's not up to it, I'll step in for as long as needed, but when she gets it back together, I'll step back into the supporting role. I don't know if she believed me, but I'll just take one day at a time.

This kind of meltdown used to happen now and then - in times of high stress. Sorry, I can't let her fall on her face at times like that - not even when we are divorced. As long as she's got nobody else, I'll listen to her and try to help her as best I can. She's very depressed - not quite suicidal exactly, but in a fairly hopeless state. She said she wanted to go to sleep and not wake up - or go do some self-destructive (but not suicidal thing).

The hurricane coverage, combined with the beginning of a semester, the divorce, money pressures, her friend having a baby, etc. etc. - just kind of piled up on her. She can't take stress. It's a PTSD thing. She shouldn't watch the news. I hope she doesn't see anything about the trampling deaths in Bagdad. There were a lot of children in that. She can't deal with that kind of thing.

-AD

No jokes for you today. But I prayed for you and opened my son's (temporarily!) abandoned Bible to find a text for you. Here's what it turned to, in Amos 9:9...

"For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

The Israelites were going to be separated from each other, and scattered among the nations, with such thoroughness that it would be like being sifted in a sieve. It would seem to them that God had abandoned them, and that all was hopelessly lost. And yet in that separation, and all their trials to come, God promised that not even the "least" of those who truly belonged to him would be lost in the process.

We have troubles like that today, too. Often. I claim this promise pretty much every day when I pray, and tell God, "Lord, we're not famous, not rich, not special to anybody but each other and you. We're the least of the least of your grains. Don't let us fall to the ground, and be lost. The Bible says that you won't let it happen. I believe you meant what you said, and claim this promise for myself and those I love, in the name of Jesus."

And then THIS particular least grain goes on about her business with a considerably more cheerful heart than the one with which she started. I LIKE being a "least grain." Well, when it's one of God's grains, I do!

Prayers coming your way...

t&l

AD,

I had read your post the other night and meant to come back and tell you how great I thought you sounded lately. Your attitude is simply the best through this all now. (of course I know that how you seem here might be a little different than what you are personally, emotionally going through with the finalization of this).

Anyway so I got back here to post to you and read your latest post regarding her meltdown, and I just want to say I think you are doing the right thing. Alway have thought that with the way you have handled things, given your wife's problems.

You little girl is a very, very lucky girl to have a dad who loves her so, and a dad who would continue to take care of her mother.

You ROCK!

T&L,

(first, I'll grumble to myself for losing the post I started to write to you, then I'll begin anew...).

I missed your post yesterday, apparently because I was composing a post at the same time - and was so narcissisticly interested in re-reading what I had posted that I didn't notice that one of God's prime grains had released a flash from that "light that so shines before men" etc.

Thanks for the quote from Amos. I can look at many things that have happened - in my life and in my wife's life and see, if not miracles, then some very unlikely train of events. I sometimes forget to pray as I used to pray in the beginning of all this - to just say "Lord, she's yours. Tell me how you want me to take care of her." (and by "she", I mean both my wife and my DD). Usually I pray "lord bless w and DD", but then I remember that I might be out there on the tip end of God's little finger and be the part that's supposed to carry out the blessing - which is a sobering thought.


That's great for you T&L, and a sign of great wisdom but I'll ask you the question my wife asks.

My wife, if you don't recall, was orphaned in war as a young child.

She has often asked "If it was God's will for me to be the only one - as a little child - to survive the massacre, then we must also say that it was God's will for the others, including little children, to die, and I can't accept that - or if I must accept that, then I must conclude that God is cruel." (She goes on to describe God as somebody with an ant farm, smashing things here and there just for the sport of seeing how the ants react to it.)

I have some answers to that, and my particular view then clashes with what the good Mr. Amos said. My view is that as long as evil is allowed in the world, then God's will is not perfectly done in the world. It seems simple to me. Jesus himself told us that God was not willing for any to perish... but some do, indeed perish.

But, my wife persists, asking something like this "Imagine God as a great big white-haired grandpa - the patriarch of a big family. He sits on the 4th floor balcony of the family's enormous mansion and looks out over all that goes on below. So, one day, for example, he sees the gardener killing one of his great-grand-children with a hoe - and he smiles (or frowns) down on the scene and does nothing to stop it. Would we call him a good man?

So, W does not buy the "evil in the world is not God's will" POV, because she remembers that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he knows that the evil ones are wreaking havok on the weak, gentle children - and holds back his infinite power and goodness rather than restraining the limited, but evil power of the evil-doers. Still, she would conclude that he is cruel.

She doesn't want to believe that, but sees no way out.

Sifting the grains: surely the little children are innocent, and yet many of them surely suffer. Of course, you could argue that they are not lost, but for somebody who wants to see and feel things here and now with her own eyes and hands, the idea of little children, after suffering intensely, going off to an invisible place where everything is peachy, is not very satisfying.

But, I, for my own part, appreciate the empowering feeling of being weak - weak in God is perfectly un-weak. Thanks very much for reminding me. Faith is faith, not knowing, just believing, inexplicable (as it must be).

-AD

You are kind to say the first, and perceptive to say the second. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't feel terribly successful in all this. I feel that if I were truely disciplined, then I would have saved this marriage. Right now, just getting the sleep I need would make me a much better Dad - a much better worker, and much more ready to take advantage of opportunities of all kinds. I'm disappointed in myself for a general lack of self-discipline. I almost said "lapse", but I think "lack" is more accurate.

I am, or was, an intelligent person - I mean in a one-in-a-hundred kind of way (not one-in-a-million or even one-in-a-thousand, but yes, one-in-a-hundred in intelligence), but my development as a person - from a young age never fully took advantage of this gift (and it is a gift, given to me, not something I have any right to brag about). Instead, it made it very easy for me to be lazy - since most things were always easy for me (that is, intellectual things). I rarely studied when I was in school - because I could make a B or C without doing anything at all, and was foolish enough to think that a B (or even a C) was "good enough".

Then, in my work, I did great when I was having fun, but coasted when things became more mundane (and after 20+ years, things will always become mundane sometimes and if one coasts, they will stay mundane. I haven't had a raise in something like 5 years - and for the most part, I don't care. That's frightening.

If I was 100% of what I could be, my wife would never let go of me. So, yes, she has fault in this, but still I had the ability to live in a way that would overcome her faults, but my own faults hobbled me.

And as a Dad, I know that I could be much much better - much more proactive. Right now, I mostly just react to my daughter's expressed needs - rather than truely looking ahead and trying to plan experiences for her that will help her develop. Honestly, my wife does a much better job of that. Yes, my wife is unstable sometimes, but her underlying force and action are very good - and considering the obsticles she has to overcome, I think she does very well indeed as a parent.

But I do very much appreciate your kind and encouraging words. I'm the kind of guy who works better on positive rather than negative commentary. If somebody says "you did good", it inspires me to do better. Thanks for noticing and caring.

-AD

Update:

W seemed much better today - not that she didn't cry, but she seemed to cry more constructively. I'll explain below (at the very end for those who want to skip to the "good part", which I will not assert is good, but rather will confess that it has a better chance of being good than this part).

DD is sleeping here tonight. The reason that W gave for suggesting that - is that needs to do some things on campus tomorrow - seeing professors and advisors and such in offices back and forth across the campus - and she tried to do it today with DD and found it very difficult. Everything is swamped there right now, the computers are running very slowly. They have a lot of new students, all the parking lots are full, everyplace you go to do something there is a long line and it takes forever since the systems are overloaded. She thinks it might be better earlier in the day - and much easier without a 4-year-old in tow. I can certainly understand that. She wants to do it in the morning and she expects to finish by 11am. So, I agreed to stay home tomorrow and keep DD so W can do her stuff on campus. I wanted to take off at the end of this week anyway - since Monday is a holiday (and my holiday in odd-numbered years). But, I wanted to take off and do something which is quite difficult with a 4-year-old around here too. Now, in all reality, I don't know where W is right now, or where she will be tomorrow morning. But that was her explanation for suggesting that DD sleep here tonight etc.

This would have been unheard of not long ago, so I have a shadow of worry, and a shadow of doubt. As I have a long w/e with DD, that will be W,Th,F,Sa,Su,Mo night with me all in a row. It is very strange and more than a little worrisome that w would allow this to happen without any signs of distress. I worry about suicide, actually. Yesterday, she said "Sometimes I think DD would be better off without me". I would be much more worried except for a significant convo that I had with W this evening - and some planning ahead that she seems to be doing (which is an indication against suicide).

Anyway, since this is W's day, I suggested that she come by here after class (about 8:30) and put DD to bed and then go home - which she did. DD fell asleep under her Mama's arm listening to her Mama read to her (which I don't do nearly as well as my W does, I confess). Then W left (supposedly to her apt) - about 10:30 - seeming in a reasonably OK state of mind.

But...

The interesting convo to which I alluded above... ensued upon W's arrival tonight after her class, or rather after she was supposedly in class, because I really don't know where she went or what she did. She arrived here looking as if she had been crying - and said that she had, in fact, been crying in the car as she drove. I gave her a hug, she she relucantly accepted, but held for some 10 seconds or more - until DD came running in full of her usual sparkles.

W said that she had come to a more intense realization of the choice she was making now - and the effect that it would have on DD. She said there were so many things that she wanted for her child and she realized that be divorsing, she would leaving our daughter with some degree of rootlessness - that she herself suffered from due to the circumstances of her life, but she she did not want DD to experience. This, by the way, is not an entirely new thing for her to say, but she seemed to experience it in a new way. So, the coaster rolls uphill tonight, it seems. She suggested that we each go back to the well-used device of the pro and con sheet - writing down the various advantages/disadvantages of the D for each of us 3.

Then, after putting DD to bed, she left. I asked her "why not sit down now and spend an hour doing that together". She basicly said "Don't push me. Make the list on your own and I'll make mine."

I don't feel like we've turned any corner here, but perhaps we have briefly sighted a corner and somebody's asking if we should turn it or not.

I hope and pray that W is ok. I'm very worried when she willingly parts with DD - I'm getting more worried by the hour - very worried indeed. Maybe I should call her. Best case, I wake her up and she becomes annoyed with me.

Maybe I should.

-AD

AD,

I'm sorry it has come to this for you.

Can I ask a question? You keep saying your wife has nobody to call on but you, what about God? Isn't HE there for HER to call on too?

God is listening to YOUR prayers, that HE will do whatever it takes to get HER attention. And I believe He is trying to do that, only thing is, I see you stepping on His toes.

I know that you don't like to see the woman you love hurt, but that is sometimes what it takes for people to turn to God. When they finally realise they have nowhere to look but UP. Everytime you sit and listen to her struggles is a time she could have turned to God and talked to Him instead.

I did the same thing, and yes, it hurt, and yes it was hard, but I had to remove myself from my ex-h's life and let God do the work, granted my ex-h didn't turn to God, and stayed on the path he was going, but your wife isn't even turning to the OM, she's not turning to booze, she's not turning to drugs, but she's reaching out, even if your not there for her and even if she chooses NOT to call on other friends God is still there for her to reach out and talk to.

Again, It's not easy to let go and TRUST God, but that is what you really need to learn to do right now. And allow God to comfort her, so that she can learn to see Him in a new way. And in that she is still even discussing God is a good thing, now move out of His WAY, and trust THAT HE KNOWS WHAT She needs more than you do. And turning to HIM is what she needs to learn how to do right now.

Maybe the next time she calls wanting to chat, just let her know your busy, or that you have plans, and at the same time suggest she read Isaiah 54.

You can say something like "I'm sorry, but you didn't want me as your husband anymore, you wanted someone else, I'm sorry your hurting right now, but you know, so am I, and sitting here listening to you doesn't help me to heal my hurts any faster. Maybe when I'm not hurting so much it will be easier, but right now, I can't do this, I can't be here for you, like I was when we were married, and I still held out hope that things would be different."

I know that may sound mean, but really it's not, it's the best thing you can do for her, and for you right now, it will help her to see just how her actions have hurt you.

She's having a meltdown because GOD IS WORKING!!

Who knows, maybe later the two of you will get back together, never say never....when God is working.

TR,

(TR, I think I edited some of my posts rather heavily while you were composing your post, so you might have to re-read to see what I added. Sorry.)

You may be very right. But, as I said above, perhaps I'm God's instrument (actually I said little finger tip). As the bible says when somebody comes to your door and asks for bread, you don't way "Go, be blessed and be full". You've got to give 'em the bread - but it would certainly be wonderful if she would overcome her anger with God. She believes, but she doesn't want to talk about what she believes.

Oh, and the discussion with my wife that I quoted above - about the nature of God, was not recent, but it has been repeated from time to time over the last 7 years, and as far as I know, it is still representative of my W's thoughts on the subject.

-AD

Wow. A very heavy question, and one which has tormented both philosophers and Joe Q. Average for millenia! Can one believe in an omnipotent God in light of the existence of evil? Would you mind if I didn't evey try to answer that one at work? I doubt very much if I'm going to settle all the questions in everyone's (or even anyone's) minds, including my own, but I can tell you what I think I understand about it. Which isn't much. But later. Not tonight. Just wanted you to know that I saw your question and it's percolating.

And no, I came into your thread long after you'd given background info, so didn't really know a lot about your wife or her background, only that it seemed you tried to be more understanding towards her because of the difficulties in it. Is she from another country?

t&l

Yes, at least 3 or 4 other countries - depending on how you count. One of her problems is trying to figure you where "home" is. She often says lately (said it again tonight), that in America she feels like a branch that's been cut off - and is wilting. OM, while not from her home country is from a neighboring country and grew up with the same language and similar culture. That's probably the #1 factor in his attractiveness to her - aside from the fact that he thinks she hung the stars. I'm at a disadvantage there. I'd love to believe that of her, but I've lived with her, and he hasn't.

She was orphaned in the first country in a war - was adopted internationally into a 2nd country, but her (adoptive) parents then moved to a 3rd country - 2nd and 3rd "countries" being constituent republics of an empire (you can guess which empire, but it counts as the 4th country, if you wish) - which then broke up - leaving her in a country who's official language her family does not speak. (They speak the language of the empire). Then, she was sent abroad to school (here) where I met her ... etc. etc.

She bacame a US citizen only a month ago. We were waiting to D after she got that.

-AD

And she didn't! There. I said what you were too polite to verbalize! Star-hanging is overrated anyway.



Too bad I'm not from immigration... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Was her heart ever in being married, or was citizenship what she wanted all along? You're being very kind. You probably already know that, but it doesn't hurt to hear it said.

t&l

I'm wondering if this thread is the best forum for an answer to your wife's question. Any time you start talking religion or Biblical interpretation, the potential for controversy arises. This thread is about you, your WWW (you have a Waffling Wayward Wife!), your daughter, your marriage and divorce. I think inserting a response on this subject could be the ultimate threadjack, and there is essential support that you receive on your thread that you shouldn't be deprived of because people are talking about something else. Is there another, more appropriate place where this can be discussed? I'm open to suggestions. I just don't want to turn your support thread into something entirely different, which, while it may be worthwhile for us to understand, has a far different purpose than the one for which you logged on here in the first place.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&L,

Just so you know, this issue has been addressed before.
I've asked the same questions in the past, and he's assured me that wasn't the case.

I'd like to address something here, that has to do with both your comment here, and your wife's beliefs about God. As I see them running together along the same lines.

You couldn't save it on your own, your wife's free will played a part in this too, and we, like God really can't force our will on others, we might try sometimes but ultimately, it doesn't work. Yes, God could, but He doesn't.

Yes, God is ALL powerful, and YES He could very easily come in an let loose His wrath on those who do evil things.

But then we must look at what God see's as evil and what mankind see's as evil.

God see's someone who lies to others as sinful, and deserving of death, to God one lie is no less evil than someone going in and massacring an entire city. It's a different type of evil, but to Him, it's still evil.

A lie will massacre a trust, it takes a relationship and destroy's the foundation, just as someone who goes in and destroys an entire city, it also destroy's the foundation.

If a marriage is a community of people working together, one lie can destroy the community, just as one bomb could destroy a community. And in the same way a community could be rebuilt starting with rebuilding the entire foundation which takes time, a marriage is the same way. The foundation has been destroyed, and it will have to be rebuilt. And both take time and commitment from those within the community.

In your wife's case growing up in a war torn country and her being the only survivor, that foundation was not meant to be rebuilt. God looks on the heart of man, look at Sodom and Gomorrah, God looked for even TEN RIGHTEOUS men, and found one man, Lot, worthy of saving. God was even willing to save his entire family, but even that wasn't meant to be. His wife chose to look back and was also destroyed. But, God looked down on your wife's homeland and choose to save her, just as He did Lot. Why her and not others? I don't know, maybe because their purpose was fullfilled, maybe the hearts of the leaders were evil and heading down a path worse than what your wife actually experienced. To which her life would have been much worse than what it was.

God saw something in her heart even as a young child that He knew was good, and He saved HER for that purpose. And God took her, just as He did with Lot, to another land in order to protect her and raise her up for His glory.

But we have evil in this world, because God created Free will in mankind, He gives us the choice to follow Him or not. He does not force us to choose Him, so yes, even though it is God's Will that NONE should perish, it is man's WILL that is the issue. God says "yes, it's MY WILL, MY desire, that none should perish, but I'm not going to force MY WILL on you, you have to decide for yourself, you have to make the choice."

And God's wrath, even now is held back, but one day that will not be the case.

Sometimes God uses one country to destroy another, and then sometimes He uses a natural disaster to show His power and His wrath as judgement, but even then it's held back in some cases.

Have you or your wife ever done research on her homeland? What things were like before it was destroyed? What things are like now in that country? Would it have been worse for her to live in what it is now and maybe even what it was headed to had things not changed?

TR,

There are a few comments in your post with which I agree, but in general, I am quite dismayed by your comments. To clearly explain why, and to offer a clear view of what I believe, requires a very carefully thought out response, and at first, I didn't feel up to it - hence my dismay.

TR, I'm sorry, it would take a long time to address this matter and it deserves a serious response which I am not up to at the moment. There is much more to be said. Would you mind if we took this discussion over to a new thread? It's important. I can't promise to join in the discussion, but I'm sure some others will join in if it's posted under it's own title.

Also, I'd like to keep this thread just for an accounting of what most likely are the last few days of my marriage.

-AD

Folks,

I logged on here 2 hours ago to post an update, but instead got caught up in the interesting and vital and heavy and weighty... but, for my purposes here today, tangential discussions of religious belief etc.

Suffice it to say that I'm 47 years old and grew up in the church and have very firmly set views which are not likely to be quickly changed. If my views are in error, that error will have to be addressed at another time in another place. This is MarriageBuilders, and my marriage is my focus here.

I'll regroup and come back to give an update.

-AD

Thinking of you...AD. Hope you get to enjoy some time with your DD over the weekend.

Update:

I, as usual, got to bed at 3am last night..

I was awakened at 6am by the phone ringing. It was my wife, who had not slept much but had been watching or reading about the situation down in NO and was pretty upset about it - wanted somebody to talk to.

I won't go into all the details, but she was most upset about the looting - raping and pillaging - the lawless segment of the population. She said that she never wanted to visit that city for the rest of her life (if it is rebuilt). Of course, she also had some words about lack of preparation and slowness of federal response.

I don't want to get into a debate about that here, but just to say that she felt very upset about what is happening down there - and above all, the lawlessness. She observed that during the blackouts in the north-east a couple of years ago, there was no looting in NYC - and wondered what was different here.

Focussing on the marriage aspects of this phone call, I can say that when she felt in distress, she called me. Also, I was very glad to hear that she was home and that she was all-right. Last night I wasn't so sure.

She went to the campus to try to do her business there, but found that several people she needed to see were gone - making a long weekend even longer. She came by at 10 or so, hung around for awhile talking more about the situation in N.O. - and left with DD. She said "I'll see you tomorrow". I reminded her that this is my weekend and DD should be here tonight - and she replied "tomorrow". This is good in one respect. It means that whatever suicidal impulse has completely passed - and whatever breach she had made between herself and DD (in which she was saying that DD would be better off without her) is healed. I was very worried that she was so willing for DD to be here last night, and that worry has been put to rest.

OK, now, I'll go do some very much needed work outside.
(I'm taking off today, and have done nothing constructive yet)

-AD

Thanks FF.

I feared I had offended you (you know how) and you were bypassing my threads. It's kind of you to post.

-AD

We can pat each other on the back, OK. How kind of you to say that I am kind. There! But seriously, it is kind of you and I do appreciate it, but since you are basing your conclusion on my self-reports of all the kind things I do (which omit almost all of the unkind things I do), well... I may deserve it less than you think. I can't view myself objectively.

Everything is OK with immigration, as TR said, we have addressed this issue before. Shocking truth (since you seem to have missed chapter 1) is that my wife was 19 when we married and had no idea how the immigration laws work. And, every form she ever submitted to the INS (now called USCIS, a part of DHS, by the way) was researched, figured out, and filled out by me. She just signed 'em.

And, any marriage that produces a child, must be considered to be legitemate. This is my daughters' only family. It would be demeaning to her to suggest that it was only about immigration.

This is, in my opinion, the best home for WW, since she was somewhat rootless in her former life. It's not that she's well-rooted here, yet. She was ambivelent about become a citizen, but in the end this is where she wants to be.

WW never wanted to come here. She was sent here by her parents. But since she has lived her since the age of 17, it has become her home.

No, her heart was not in being married. From her perspective, her parents "made her" marry me. A more charitable view is that she married me to please her parents, who wanted an American son-in-law. Now, you know why I thought it would be interesting for her to talk to you - even though I don't know that it would influence her toward preserving the marriage.

-AD

pat

pat

patpat

patpat

PatPat

PatPat

PATPAT

PATPAT

PATPATPATPATPATPAT

PATPATPATPATPATPATnudge

PATPATPATPATPATPATWHACK

WHACK

WHACKPUMMELPUMMELPUMMELWHACK

PUMMELWHACKGOUGECLOBBERWHACKBOOT

Just so long as all this back patting doesn't deteriorate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Of course you omit certain things you have done, in relating your story. You certainly don't think you've heard every misdeed of MINE in The Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid, do you? But in reading your threads, there is a pervading sense of decency about you that comes through--in what you have done, and what you have still hoped for in spite of everything. Acknowledging that doesn't erase your own mistakes, any more than those mistakes diminish or negate the good that you have tried to accomplish. PAT!

t&l

T&L,

Tnx! I hope you're right about me. <pat>

AD, I don't offend easily <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have not even kept up (shhhh)with t&l's thread. Read some for the first time today. I have been caught up in my own whirlwind of extreme pain. But I do try to at least let my friends know I am thinking about them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree. That's why I posted the suggestion a few entries back. There are other better places to deal with this question. pat

t&l

FF, are you trying to say that all this time I've been pouring my HEART out on The Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid, you've been focusing on yourSELF?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I've been meaning for days to email you, but the treadmill won't let me off! You are in my prayers though, as always, you and your DD and DS...and your Doofus, too.

t&l

Today was a very bad day. DD was with me. W called, started making serious proposals for reconciliation - went so far as to ask, "you want some tonight?" - which was about to push me over the edge of whatever it's called, uh, sanity. Then, while we were on the phone, and I was ignoring DD, DD hurt herself.

OH MAN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

DD somehow pulled the electric piano (52 pounds) over on herself. From the looks of the bruise, she must have been on the floor when it fell on her. And somehow, it also cut her - although it is smooth metal - there are a few screw heads on the bottom side, also smooth, and the edges of the plastic keys, also smooth. I understand the bruise(hematoma even showed on the x-ray), since the thing is heavy . But, I don't understand how she got cut.

Stitches in her tender skin - on the leg of the most lovely little child. I feel like brown stinking stuff. W came over, and we drove to the emergency room together. We tried to call DD's pediatrician, but he never called back. Maybe tomorrow or Tuesday, we'll take her to him or even to a plastic surgeon - don't want a scar. My W has been astonishingly non-violent. She has changed. A few years ago she would have been beating on me, scratching me, making sure I hurt ten times as much as DD. (And today, I would have not minded very much.)

I told the nurse, a lady of mature years, that as soon as we left the hospital, my wife was going to kill me. She said, "I saw that you were watching her - expecting something to happen". I said "it's just a figure of speach, you've probably seen all kinds of things here, I don't want you to think anything..." Nurse, said "I've been married a long time too, so I understood." (Which either meant that I deserved to die or that my wife was unlikely to become homicidal). As soon as DD had her pants on - covering the bandage, she was good to go, seemed as cheerful as ever. We went and ate pizza together, but then W pulled a fast one - dropped me off at my house and took off with DD - who was supposed to be with me tonight and tomorrow.

But amazingly, when I called and talked to her, she wasn't cruel to me - said she felt sorry for me, because she could imagine how I felt. It goes without saying that it's my fault. It's my responsibility to keep my house safe. I told her that if she had asked, I would have agreed for DD to go home with her.

I feel pretty low right now.

Strange thing... I think the ER doc is the son of my divorce lawyer. It's an unusual family name, and the ages seem about right.

-AD

OK, I'm sorry to hear your daughter hurt herself, but in reading about it, I find I'm worried that you're going to beat yourself up too much about this--certainly more than you deserve. Take your cue from your DD. When everything was over, she was fine and "cheerful as ever." Maybe it should be a lesson to WW not to jerk your chain and proposition you over the phone, if she wants your full attention to be devoted to child care! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Children get into stuff. Neak and Flard both had to have their lips stitched up when they were younger than your DD. On separate occasions, of course. It wasn't a brawl where they both lost! Neak tried to ride the Christmas tree stand like a horsie, and Flard was bucked off a wild and woolly plastic sheep on wheels. It didn't make us bad parents. They were accidents. And they, and we, weren't harmed by it in the long run. Keeping Neak's DS#3 from self-precipitated death and destruction is a full-time job, in and of itself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> He was the best birth control device they ever had, until this recent slip-up. Your DD had an accident. Give her hugs and kisses. Dry her tears. Fix the piano so it won't tip over again. And don't "visit" with WW while you're supposed to be babysitting.

You are a good and devoted father. And an accident happened anyway. Don't let it get you down, as if you'd done some horrible thing. It will be alright. Really.

t&l

Thanks, T&L. I know. I would say the same to anybody else, but my wife is going to kill me, only very very slowly. :evilgrin:

Thing is, just the other day I was thinking about doing a little safety review of the house. Thinking about it didn't do any good, and I would not have thought about the electronic keyboard. I do have a huge brick hearth - with sharp corners and edges. For a 2-year-old, people pad the things, but I think it's not a bad idea for 4-y-o's either. I've worried about that place, the way she runs around here.

I still don't know what happened. It's really not very profitable to ask DD, as she might say anything. I'm sure that it is impossible for the thing to fall while being played in the normal manner. But who ever expected a child to do anything "in the normal manner"?

I'm sure you fully appreciate the tender transparent beauty of every square inch of a little child's skin. It's a terribly wrong thing for any of it to be cut, scraped, or injured in any way. And there's a big bad bruise under it all!

Life is too fragile. Even such a "minor" injury makes one think.

BTW. Normally, a "minor" injury is defined as "an injury to somebody else", unless it's my child in which case all injuries are "major".

7 stitches, and a bruise that's visible on x-rays, is definitely not "minor" when's it's my on little girl's leg.

I'm going to sleep now, I promise.

=AD

If you're into S&M, that might be a good thing!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. Don't tell me. I don't want to know!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

S&M? HHMMPH!

Nothing like that. She'll use words to do it. It's the ladies way.

-AD

AD,

Sorry to hear about the accident. Did you get a copy of the hospital report? Ask the board here if it w/b wise to let your lawyer know about the incident in case the Ws makes a ruckus about it?

Jmho,
L.

Hmm-m-m-m-m-mmph! P.A.T. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. I have no idea what you're talking about. Such a method would be foreign to my Sphinx-like self! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi Orchid,

Thanks for your comments. My lawyer will hear about it if it seems neccesary. Right now, I don't want to use any more of his $200 hours if I can avoid it.

T&L,

<pat> <pat>

Quick update:

DD is here. I called W this afternoon and, with much LB, I arranged to pick up DD and get her back here where she belongs today and tonight. Perhaps I could have done it differently. But I'm learning, very late in this marriage, that if I stand firm, my w will fold - and not actually even be (very) angry with me later.

W doesn't want any legal doin's related to all this. She just wants me to give in and do it her way, but when I'm firm, she concedes.

W said, on the phone, while I was fighting for my visitation rights (too loudly, I guess, but shouting on the phone is better than in person), that I was losing my chance for a reconciliation, to which I replied (perhaps foolishly) that I was no longer interested in reconciliation.

She called this evening, asked to come over and give DD a sponge bath - since she can't take a normal bath for a few days and "she's a girl". I agreed. W came, did that, helped restrain DD while I changed the bandage, read a bedtime story and left.

W has an appointment in the morning so I'll take DD to work with me and W will pick her up after her appointment. DD likes that going to my office, and I figure it's better to come to work with a child than to come late. Maybe somebody there would have a different opinion, but it should be OK for an hour or so.

-AD

OK, time for the daily update. It sure is quiet on my little thread.

Amazingly, W called this afternoon, repeating the effort at reconciliation. I don't like her proposed deal. I told her that it seemed that I was the one taking all the risk and she, on the other hand only stands to gain.

Her proposal is that we move back into "our" house (instead of selling it) - and go from there. She understands my basic requirement (NC with OM).

But....

This would only put me back exactly where I was 3 months ago when I moved out - only poorer since I've been spending a bit trying to set up house here - and W has been accepting my CS and "Alimony in gross" payments.

She asked me to give her a summary of my conditions - just the short list - "small enough to fit on a 3x5 card" - and put on the other side of the card what I am willing to do for her.

Hmmmm.

Ok, My proposed requirements from her:

1) NC with OM forever. (and ever and ever and ever...)
2) Treat me with respect and consideration at all times (no insults, cursing, namecalling etc.)
3) complete openness. No secrets. Snooping to the max to be accepted as normal. She tells all details of relationship with OM without hesitation or spin.
4) We go to church together consistently and budget some money for the church.
5) She agrees to have another child (of mine, of course). (Major major commitment from her!)
6) Her "Quit claim deed" (disclaiming any rights to my house) remains in force. We sell the other house, use all the equity to pay down the debt on my house (no equity split), which I rent out (and I get the rent money) and we live in a rented place somewhere else. (since she doesn't like my house again, and I don't want to lose any rights to it on the basis of it being the "marital home")
7) She agrees to work on helping me become fluent in Russian.

What I'll do for her:

1) Keep going to work and bringing home the bacon. Focus on being a great worker and making some advancement in my (presently stagnated) career.
2) Take care of all the anxiety-inducing details of life (IE bills, financial and logistical planning etc.) plus household maintenence, outdoor work as required (if we live in a rental this might be easy).
3) Take care of her with all the tenderness, patience and affection that I can muster. Oh and did I mention forgiveness (reset to zero)... and foot-rubs. etc. (especially etc.)
4) Make myself available to listen to her patiently.
5) Plan and execute an annual trip to visit her family. We will all go together and return together (no more month-long trips to grandma's leaving me at home alone).
6) Plan and execute another (other than the visit to her parents) annual vacation together.
7) Work towards moving to Colorodo (not Denver, but in a less expensive place nearby where my company has an office) or to Russia if I can find an acceptable job there.
8) Gradualy restore her financial access as our confidence in each other improves - until then, she gets an "allowance". (I hate that, but there it is).

These things take more than 20 days to negotiate, agree, and to build confidence in the sincerity of the agreement. So, I would propose to hold up the D until January (hopefully we can do this without spending even more legal money) to give us at least 3 months to work out the details and build respect and confidence in each other. If we can't work out the details by then, the D goes back in. (This also has the benefit of saving me money on 2005 taxes - since W is a SAHM - and also qualifies for education credits).

What do you folks think?

I think she's going to balk at the house sale, since what she really wants is to avoid losing social status - and her best friend is a neighbor there. The baby is a wild card. Having my child is the ultimate commitment to me. Having another baby with me would have a good chance of driving OM away. She wants another, perhaps just as much as I do, but understands her limited ability to cope and also knows that DV with 2 kids is just that much harder if it comes to that down the road.

-AD

She has every reason to think you're sincere and that your things are not intended as a penance or punishment, but rather only what it takes to make you feel safe.

But something that seems awfully important is not there. A couple of somethings.

She suffers from an already-acknowledged psychological affliction that seems somehow more malignant than the usual WS ethical confusion and character deficiency. Sorry, too many three-to-five-syllable words. Nerd alert. She's had lots of loss in her life, and that's made it quite a struggle.

She needs a counselor, and not just the closest one in your provider network, or whatever.

And the two of you, together, could use a good MC, too.

If she's likely to balk anyway, why not tack it on there?

GC

Good idea GC.

She said herself just a few days ago that she needed one - and was willing to go to MC with me too. Amazingly, she can get a counselor at the U - seemingly for free (at least I never get anything from teh insurance company about it). They seem even to talk to her when she is not current enrolled in classes. She's also been to another psychaiatrist (sp?) and the H of her best friend is one too (but he's our neighbor and we want to keep him as a friend).

Honestly, I think some of the anti-anxiety drugs do help, but she never has taken them with any consistency.

She has major anxieties associated with school. Most of the times when she has really flipped out were either at the beginning or end of a semester. Just tonight, she admitted that she has still not been to one of her classes (which is a class she dropped in a previous semester). She's missed 5 class sessions already - and passed the point of getting no refund (and she paid out of "her" money). She also has an "I" that probably has turned into an "F". It still can be fixed but she is afraid to talk to the instructor. The only way she can graduate this semester is to take care of both of those.

-AD

Maybe everybody else shared my fate today, and they, like I, were mugged by life and just didn't have a chance. Thought about you though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I told you that as a chain jerker your wife could give my husband lessons! Make sure you're hanging onto your valuable links good and tight!

As far as your lists, I think your two biggest fleeces for her are the child and the financial arrangements with the house. And church. OK, that makes 3. So math isn't my strong suit. If she accepts those, you might even consider considering her sincerity! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Did you know that Neak, her squabblings, and I all used to speak some Russian? I can still read it some, if slowly, but I don't know exactly what I'm saying. I can write my name, and the few words I remember, and my handwriting is very precise. I really loved Russian until we started all the gender and case stuff, which went right over my head.

Scrolling down your list, I went so fast that I combined 2 lines into one sentence, and thought I read that you said would agree to execute her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Sending cautious hopes your way...

t&l

Well, T&L, a cynical view would be that she wants it back just like it was before I took control by moving out of that house.

I'm not so desparate to "save my marriage" (the one we've been having), that I would agree to that. So, I made my list - and I know it's tough. I think the going to church she would agree to. She wants DD to sing in the little kids choir and all that. Of course "together" is a bit tougher, but still I think she will agree.

The child, she will waffle on - saying it's not time yet and we'll have to see - which is another way of saying no without saying no - because really, she wants a baby - but is afraid.

The house, I think, for her is the show stopper. She wants to save face, save social status etc. She doesn't want to tell her folks that we sold that, even though they thought we should never have bought it (not that I care what they think, of course), but should have stayed in "my" house. "My" house has 3 acres (Russians are very fond of a bit of land for a garden) - and gargantuan old oaks (which W is afraid will fall on the house - a realistic fear, actually). "Our" house is in a new subdivision on a postage-stamp and has 3 or 4 sickly stick-trees - but has doctors and business owners for neighbors.

I think she has to beg. Sorry. I know that's not nice. Maybe it doesn't have to go quite that far, but she's got to become a lot more flexible.

20 days is too early to make a deal. Conditions should improve for me as the calendar turns. At 3 days out, if she really doesn't want a D, she should be ready to make a serious deal - if she really doesn't want a D.

-AD

This would be my view as well.

So this is where your boundaries must be iron clad. She will fold before you do though I think, and I hope.

Stay strong now and don't settle for less than what you can be happy with.

This all comes back to what used to go on in your thread when Gimble was talking to you about boundaries and demanding respect. Not demanding in words but in actions, of what you will and will not be a party to.

I still follow your sitch somewhat AD, but don't read here very much anymore. So that is why I have been quiet on it.

Thanks for stopping by Weaver,

I really don't have much <I hesitate here a long time to find a word> of anything invested in this reconciliation plan. Maybe I'll wait for her to ask again. Maybe I'll wait for her to beg. Sorry. That's not nice, is it.

We had another unpleasant hour-long phone call about visitation schedule. Much of the time, I confess, I was holding the phone away from my ear and just waiting for the noise to stop. (sorry, bad attitude, I guess.) It seems I'm being "inhuman" and "inflexible" to suggest that we stick with the agreed-upon schedule.

All the same, W has a crunch this weekend and asked me to swap and take DD this weekend so she can write a paper.

DD will be here tomorrow night, then spend the day with her mom Friday, then I'll have her until Monday morning. W now has a 3-hour class on Monday nights, so DD will be back here monday evening, but by the current plan will go home and sleep at her Mom's apt that night. W wants her on Wednesday to take her to church - to children's choir practice. Wednesday is my night with DD. It is amazing to here w talk about how important it is for her to be able to take DD to church on wednesday night (which she has never done before) - after years of refusing to go with me even on a Sunday. And now, she is being deprived, because I have DD on Wednesday. Honestly, I don't mind swapping nights as long as she doesn't "forget" that I'm supposed to have DD on the alternative night (which almost happened this week).

I'm writing too much. I'm bored with myself.

Time to bravely face the pillow and see if it can seduce me into slumber (for a change). I need to get to work on time tomorrow and execute the plan of being a generally all around decent guy and Dad.

-AD

AD, isn't it fun to imagine your W having an "aha" moment?

I wish you'd gone to a plan B arrangement with your W. Seems like she has something good in her just dying to get out, but it's beaten down by her bratty habits, and that part of her needs to be starved, to go unrewarded.

But even if you'd done that, it's for her to make that change. All you can do is create the occasion for it.

GC

GC,

You may be right - that a real Plan B would have done something. I think it would, but it's hard to do that with a young child.

Most of our communication is either legitimately about our child or arrangments for her - or W at least pretends to be calling about our child.

-AD

And "aha" would be nice, however, I have heard half-aha's which were forgotten by the next day.

As a little update, I got a report from the medical insurance that WW went to the doc a few days after she last stayed overnight here. I'm guessing she had a depo shot.

-AD

Well, by morning, it will be 16 days til final.

I think maybe it will hit me hard. Right now, I'm not feeling much of anything.

I sent the "what I need in order for us to stay married" message to W last night - pretty close to what I had suggested here.

Her immediate response was negative, as expected, but she called back a couple of times and talked more constructively.

During her long monologue on the phone today, I finally realized that it really isn't "just me". She lacks basic conversation skills. I don't know how to approach that, but it really needs to be fixed. She talks and talks and talks and never gives me an opportunitity to respond to anything she says. She might as well be talking to herself.

... Like I am, on this thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

At this point, I think she would have agreed to sell the other house and move in here - but I'm suggesting that we not live here because if she moves in, it becomes again "the marital dwelling" and she's got her hooks into my house again. So, I propose we live "somewhere else" and that I rent this place out for extra cash.

I sent her another missive tonight - addressing some concerns that she had.

DD is here, sleeping.

... which is what I must be doing too.

Oh, I have to put in this about DD. She asked about the piano (the electronic keyboard that fell on her - cutting her leg a few days ago). I told her that it was in it's case. She went over and unzipped the case, looked inside and said "the piano is sad." What a sweety!

I think she wanted me to take it out and let her play with it. I'll do that when I figure out how to set up up securely so that it cannot possibly fall on her.

g'night.

-AD

A clam with diarrhea. What a novel concept. I'd never really thought about that before, and now that I have, I've decided it would be even worse to have that than a constipated one! All mouth, no ears...


No you're not. I read everything you post on this thread, as I'm sure others do as well. Why they aren't posting back, I couldn't tell you, but for me personally...well, I've been busy eliminating phluhgh as fast as I could so I could get back to the soymeat of the Saga. I'm sure you will understand, dear AD!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't they say if you fall off a horse you ought to get right back on again? Not suggesting that your DD should ride the piano exactly, but it's nice that she's not afraid of it and I hope you get it set up and secured soon so that her interest in it stays active. Maybe we can all go hear her play in Carnegie Hall someday...

t&l

That was just my way of saying "Readers, report in!"

I don't really expect many posts here, since I'm not asking any questions and not fishing for advice. (much)

But, I will ask, for anyone still reading:

Is it appropriate to require anything more than the two basic items?
1) (Re)commit to the marriage vows.
2) Commit to (monitorable, enforcable) NC with OM forever.

The rest of it should perhaps fall back into the normal process of negotiation within the marriage.

I have an impulse to just say "Come move in over here, and let me take care of the rest" (getting her out of her lease, getting the house sold, moving stuff, etc.)

I want the marriage to be "real". If I can do what your HP does - and say nothing more about the A (as long as she make a clean NC), that would be cool. If I could really start clean with no references to any past offenses, that would be super-cool.

I'm rambling.

DD is here. I'd better go pay attention.

-AD

AD,

Your marriage is 16 days from ending and while I admire your last ditch efforts to save/rebuild it, I hope that you finally realize that your STBXWW will NOT put any effort into it and would like nothing better than to have the status quo she's enjoyed, to stay in place. The time for wishful thinking has ended.

While you'll always have a 'working relationship' with her because of your daughter, it is time for you to wean her from your emotional support. This is not for the purpose of being mean spirited and vindictive towards her but so that you can have the opportunity to start rebuilding your life. If you don't then you may never fully recover and any future committed relationship will be doomed from the start.

I hope you give this some serious thought.


TMCM

I am in awe and admiration for your dedication.

Your W was lucky to have you. And while it is hard to do a plan B with a clam suffering from diarrhea, it may be very well time.

I might consider it when the ink is dried. That way there is no "marital home or marital this or that". She gets what her actions deserve.

She at some point must learn cause and effect. even children get this. My son understand this at age 7 and understood at 5 pretty well.

Don't fix for her anything. This is her doing. Let her do it.

You have defined 2 points of healthy boundaries that must be met for you to NOT divorce her. She won't meet them. Thus, you must stick to your boundaries and the D is on.

I am sorry. Am praying 4 you my friend and for your DD.

Chin up. Maybe the plan B and coincidence of the D may wake the clam up and cure the diarrhea.

Is it possible that it's just now starting to sink in with your WW what it will be like for her without all the buttresses, supporting columns, hedges, guard dogs, and etc., that marriage to you has provided for her life? That being alone and on her own is looking scarier and scarier by the moment? I'm kinda leaning towards this idea myself, based on my insignificant knowledge of your situation; however, I seldom let ignorance stand in the way of forming an opinion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If you think this might be the case, then the "freedom" she wanted to obtain at any cost is going to look downright costly once she gets it. And, if this might be the case, I have to wonder if getting what she "wants" might not be the best thing for her, in the long run. You don't want to put yourself through the wringer for somebody who only sees you as a comfy cushion upon which to sit in comfort and safety. She needs to want you, not just what you provide. And sometimes the best way to accomplish that is to let the wanderers wander, and find out what it's really like out their on their own. Remarriage down the road to a repentant, sincerely-desiring woman is a whole lot better than staying married to someone with the attitude she appears have towards you now. I once called her a chain jerker extraordinaire. Nothing she's doing is changing my mind, either. And I don't think you deserve to have your chain jerked like that even once...to say nothing of overandoverandoverandoverandover again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Of course, letting the divorce go through in no way guarantees that she'll come back sorry later. But if you do and she doesn't, then I don't have a lot of confidence that staying married would've produced a different result--only the same one delayed long enough to let you accumulate a bunch more pain before the inevitable conclusion. You're the only one who knows how much of this you can take. Everybody has a breaking point, though. Don't exceed yours.

Guess I'm doing break relief for another nurse and have to go watch her pt. Hope the fact that you're not online means you're sleeping tonight for a change! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Well, I don't have much to say. But it isn't because I haven't been thinking of you and wishing the best for you.

I, too, fall prey to wishful thinking in your case. I think 2MCM nailed it.

But as far as your two points go, yes they are minimal and necessary. In an earlier post you had included all sorts of things like not insulting or yelling at each other -- which are good, of course, but these things tend to happen in the course of a marriage anyway, and it erodes the inviolability of the Big 2 clauses when you have some that will be violated just because sometimes people do lose their tempers.

Maybe you want to have a third for MC and, especially in her case, IC. Then you some of these issues can be addressed there.

Good luck.

It won't work if you nobly say nothing about the A, but subconsciously or otherwise redirect your complaints at everything else she does! Transference is not a marriage builder, either.

I'm afraid you've got some tough work ahead of you, my friend, whether you divorce or try to rebuild. Which is too bad, because it's ever so much more fun to have fun! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Oops. I clicked the wrong thing and lost my post. drat!

Coffeeman!

It's so nice to see you on my thread.
I'm sure you are absolutely right. Developments this afternoon prove it out.

I think I'm done (again).

Peach,

It's nice to see you over here too. I know you've got a load of care right now dealing with your X. Didn't you used to say that he pretended to be "an international man of mystery"? I would have another name for it. I hope you are able to get full 100% custody with no visitation with him. On the other hand, that might make him a "man of mystery" to your son - and the last thing we want is for your little boy to follow in those footsteps. Even though you are giving him a good example, he might not "get it" that what a wise and decent woman does is pretty much what a wise and decent man does. And by the way, if I didn't congratulate you on your new (well it was new) job, Congratulations! Maybe the best thing for your son would be if you remarried to a good decent man - so your son could see what such a man looks like. Choose carefully. I know you can see through the flash and glitter now, and won't fall for that again.

Just to clarify what I was saying about my wife. She has been saying that she understands and does not resist the requirement of NC. Her objections lie elsewhere, not that it matters now.

T&L,


I'm sure you are right! But really, what she "wants" is to have both of us. She denies it, but long ago she once said "I want your money, and his everything else." If I had done something closer to a Plan B, she might have gotten some understanding by now. But that's water under the bridge.


Quite true - and I don't think that would be a problem for me. Forgiveness comes pretty easily to me - as long as there is honesty and contrition. Groveling is not required.

A.M.Martin,

Hello again to you too. I haven't been tracking your situation for awhile - just not enough energy to look at other people's problems very much - and you seem to have everything pretty much on track.

Yes, the vows contain quite enough about treating each other with respect. "It's in there!" Of course, people yell at each other now and then, but I didn't want the daily pattern of insults and IHY's. If I stay married, or marry again, I want my wife (whoever she may be) to work just as hard to please me and meet my needs as I work to please her and meet her needs. The vows are the same for both of us. The house deal was intended to give me some protection. At this point, I would need that. But this afternoon, she lied to me again - and really put me off the entire thing.

-AD

Oh AD, I don't disagree with you -- it's just that most marriages don't break up when somebody yells. Many break up for adultery. By making those kinds of things conditions for reconciliation, you are setting yourself up for failure. For preconditions, stick to the deal-breakers -- adultery, contact with OM, etc. Yelling can be worked out in counseling. And if it happens before reconciliation -- along with lying -- you don't have to go back in.

I think you are on the right track, too.

So now she won't have his "everything else" nor your money, either? How appropriate. How fitting. How just. Besides, I learned way back at the beginning of the Saga with the prison inmate episode, that moving on to somebody else wouldn't really have solved anything, because I was still going to be me when I got there, just "me" in a different place. She will still be the same discontented, angry, bitter, etc. person in her "new" life of "freedom" that she was when married to you. If that insight ever penetrates her brain for real, let me reassure you it will be one of the most unpleasant shocks she ever gets!

t&l

T&L,

Oh, she'll probably still marry OM. I don't doubt it. She'll hang back for a few months so she can pretend (to whom?) that she met him after the D. That will annoy him, no doubt.

I'm smiling at the thought of how miserable he's going to be - no matter what she does. If she marries him, he will learn a thing or two about life - things that I wish I had not had the occation to learn. Of course, she's older and gentler now, but she's much more skilled in lying than she was 7 years ago.

I was over there - was it yesterday? I guess it was, and she wanted me to hook up the printer to her computer. I had been supsicious of that computer. She told me that her nephew gave it to her, and when I expressed disbelief ('cause he would either have sold it or taken it with him to Moscow), she said that it was an extra computer from a friend of her nephew. But, when I looked at it yesterday, I saw that the word processor was registerd to OM. I asked her again where she got it. She again repeated the lie. I confronted her about it - then she said that OM was a friend of her nephew. (Just as I was writing this, I realized that OM probably was at the going away party for N that I was not invited to.) I'll ask the host of that party about that - or maybe I'll just tell them that we are D'ing and why. He's an old friend - and deacon at my church.

So, after I discovered where the computer came from for sure, I just left. She was still distressed about her printer not working. I told her "you can get a new one for about $75" - and left.

I didn't answer her calls (of which there were many).

Now, I know my wife pretty well - and let me tell you, that computer was almost new. I think I can guess what happened, 'cause I know her. Probably she visited OM's appartment - and he was proudly showing her his new computer - and she said "I want that!", LOL. I know her. She does that! So, he, under the circumstances, couldn't turn her down. I'm laughing about it now. Probably he's now back to using some old slow broken one. Same thing happened last time I bought a new computer. LOL. He will learn, boys and girls. He will learn. And, he's got a whole lot fewer dollars to play with than I do. LOL. LOL. LOL!

So, after the lies, I withdrew any offers of reconciliation.

Today,

Yes, today.

W had an evening class, and I kept DD. So, when W came by to pick her up, she stepped into the foyer and said "something smells good. Did you cook? Is there any left?" "It's curried beef", I replied. "Can I have some?", she asked. "Sure, you can have it." She walked into the kitchen, looked around. I took it out of the fridge. "Oh, it's not fresh", she said, a little disappointed. "I made it yesterday", I lied. LOL. So off she went with her prize of 4-day-old curried beef.

I know her.

It was still good. I ate some for dinner - really good, actually.

But tomorrow, I think I'll have some fresh food.

And in 2 weeks, a somewhat fresher life.

-AD

Good plan AD.

I'm up because I need to learn a song for a gig tomorrow, and I spent all night working on the house.

What's your excuse?

GC

GC,

No excuse, and no real explanation.

I have a theory about it, but it's not quite jelled yet.

I'll go now.

Probably.

But which plan is good, the "fresh food" plan?

... and actually, I didn't intend to lie to her. I just forgot when I cooked it. Now I'm beginning to think it was Saturday, so it's only 3 days old. I'm sure it wasn't yesterday.

Hmmm. My memory is going. Today, I couldn't remember my cell-phone number, and when I did, I had to check it by calling it from the land-line just to be sure. Sleep deprivation does that.

I know it's not a old-age thing. Not yet.

-AD

... and I did at least clean the kitchen instead of spending all my time on-line.

-AD

Yes, he certainly will. They don't call it The School of Hard Knocks for nothing. And from what I gather, it seems possible that at least some of those knocks might be literal! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Break my heart.


Sort of an interesting metaphor for poor OM, who THINKS he's getting fresh curried beef when the curry he's about to have is really more like Lazarus--"Lord, he's been dead four days and he stinks!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I'm a little bummed about how DD is doing.

She's getting more and more defiant. Today WW dropped her off at my office, and after working another hour, (during which DD made a ruckus, unfortunately), I brought her home with me. DD didn't want to come here. Wanted to go to her Mom's apartment. I told her Mom is not home. She replied "Yes she is!". etc. etc.

I feel sorry for her.

-AD

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that! It'll work for a few years more anyway.

t&l

Hi t&l!

... are your patients a little more patient tonight?
Not popping? (yet)

You are at the hospital, right?

-AD

Hola! Que pasa?

t&l

Telling myself what?

(strange woman, AD mutters to himself, makes no sense.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Of course I'm at the hospital. If it were my night off, I'd be long asleep. I'm not much fun on my nights off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Or so I've heard.

My pt. already popped, and has gone to the great maternity ward in the sky. Actually down the hall and around the corner. But by finishing early, I got first break and first goof-off time.

It's all in the wrist!

t&l

T&L,

You have a small herd of young-uns in your clan.

Any advice for getting them to listen to the old parents?
And especially for cheerfully doing what the're supposed to be doing?

My brother's son, by the way, is great. I suppose I should be asking him (bro, not his son, LOL).

-AD

Is my husband there with you, feeding you ideas? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Oh no! frowny faces!

I hate it when I induce my fellow-MB'ers to emit frowny-faces.

I take it all back. I was trying to jest, and I'm jest not up to it.

I shouldn't be up to anything actually, except down to sleeping - to which I will go now.

I sorta promise, maybe.

-AD

Oh no! Even worse, now I sound sarcastic. The situation is spiraling out of control. Now I sound even more sarcastic.

Sleep! It's the on-line thing.

-AD

You'll have to ask Neak and Neaksis. All I do is scowl a lot and remind them that when I tell them to do something, it should NEVER be mistaken as personal curiousity about their feelings regarding the matter, or as an invitation to a discussion! I do know that if you tell a child to do something, you need to be very diligent in making sure you pay attention to whether or not you're being obeyed. If you become distracted by other things instead of following up on the performances of your instructions, kids will take advantage of that almost every single time. Even the good, the cute ones, like my grandkids and your DD. It is always my life's ambition never to be outwitted by a child, and when I have them, I expend a considerable amount of energy towards attaining that goal. It helps that I was such a naughty child, too. It's hard for them to come up with something I haven't already tried! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Scratch the cheerful. Who cares? They can be cheerful when they get their rewards afterwards! You can make games, and clever little plans, and obtain cheerfulness at least some of the time. But they need to learn that life includes doing things you don't want because you have to, and whether you want to do them or not. As little as children like to learn this lesson, it's still much easier on them if they figure it out when they're little. Trust me on this. I have experience! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Do people who are seriously cross really use those little frowny faces to show it? If I were seriously frowny that silly little emoticon would never be up to the task of expressing it adequately for me. They'd have to come up with some kind of a Wrath of Thor emoticon for those times, not little Pouty Pete here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Or don't you like people going pfft at you either? Think dandelion, AD, not gardenia. You are not a fragile flower. Not to imply that you're a noxiously-proliferating weed, either, that people spray poisons on, dig up, mow down, or otherwise try to obliterate from the face of the earth! It must be my age. Seems like the old metaphors are acting up again tonight!

t&l (dandelion phluhgh)

AD, I like your new fresh perspective. Good for you for beginning to detach. DD will be fine as long as you are the stable force in her life. Always, always put her first.

FF,

Well, I think you are seeing something that I'm not seeing when I look in the mirror. But thanks for your vote of confidence.

T&L,

As always thanks for all your comments. If I don't reply to each in detail, you may still be assured that I read them at least twice.

I'm glad I didn't offend you. It's dangerous to say some things in email or on-line since the tone of voice and other stuff helps to make the intent clear.

Update:

Today, I stopped wearing my ring.

Also, my watch battery died yesterday and I put the watch in a drawer. That watch was almost the only gift (other than the incalculably priceless DD) that my wife has given me in 7 years. I ordered a new watch (the one on the left with the dark gray face) - completely different in every way from the one WW gave me. It should be here Friday. Until then, I can use my cell for a pocket watch.

-AD

...more...

I regret that my posts here have deteriorated over the last months. Often I'm posting when I'm so tired I can hardly think - and it shows.

-AD

AD,

{{{{{Hugz}}}} Don't push yourself. Take a rest. Remember your little one depends on you and you on her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Be glad u 2 have each other.

1 day at a time right now, ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aloha,
L.

Orchid,

Thanks for the hugs, and for your kindness to remember me now and then. I'm ok-ish. I haven't been marriage-building for quite some time now, but I do appreciate you and all the others who check up on my countdown from time to time.

Exactly in what way DD needs me is the question that I must figure out.

Right now, I have a constant struggle to have my visitation occur on time. I have missed several nights lately, due to giving in to WW's almost constant attempts to renegotiate every single day that I have with DD. It's exhausting, and very disheartening when I look forward to 14 more years of this.

Wednesday night is suppose to be my weeknight visitation - from 3pm Wednesday til 8am Thursday. I intend to arrange to be off from work early on Wednesdays to take full advantage of this. Suddenly WW discovers that she wants to take DD to children's choir at a church that they occationally attend. Was DD in the 2-year-old choir? No! Was DD in the 3-year-old choir? No! Has DD in her entire life been to church on Wednesday night? Sadly, only once - after we separated - when WW attempted to enroll her in children's choir (which was out for the summer). Only now, that I'm granted visitation on Wednesdays does WW discover how vital this is to DD's life. And, one might ask, why can't I take hr to choir? Because it was ww's idea. She seems to think she's the first one ever to think of it.

So, I endured three sessions on the phone with begging, badgering, demanding, blaming etc. Each session about a half-hour or until I hung up on my wife. I am so disheartened by this. Finally, this afternoon, I called her up and told her I would take DD on Thursday this week.

This has got to stop!

If I have to go to court... Actually, we never went to court since we did it the easy way... But if I have to go to court to get some kind of action that would protect me from this constant badgering and harrasment whenever WW thinks of something that just must be done - by DD and her together on my visitation day, I'll do it. If this keeps up it will kill me.

A key factor in my decision to go ahead with the divorce - and not to fight for custody was the assurance that the standard visitation here is fairly generaous. Many times, on this forum, I explained to people who urged me to go for custody, that this deal was acceptable because "without a fight", I would get 10 overnights a month and about 1/4 of DD's total time would be with me. I did not anticipate that I would instead have an almost daily fight over actually getting the visitation that was agreed upon.

ON a brighter note, I found a concert tomorrow night that I think DD will enjoy - and even better, it's free - and relatively early - at 6pm. I'll get DD at 3, take her to some cornfield-maze thing, grab a bite and take her to the concert. We've been homebodies too much lately.

Also, this evening I got busy and did some chores outside - even after dark until after 11pm. If I did that every night instead of hanging 'round the MB forum, this place would look, as the Russians say, "like a toy."

-AD

Visitation is almost always the sticky point, and it's a rare couple who is able to manage everything satisfactorily with somebody having to be reined in, and gotten under control by some outside authority. Doesn't sound like your STBX is going to be one of those "rare" ones, either. So if she continues true to form, don't wait too long to do something about it. The longer you wait, the more bad feelings will build up, the more uprooted and unsettled-feeling your DD will become, and the harder everything will become to fix. And last but not least, everybody knows that the bigger the fixing, the bigger the bill!



MY house looks like a toy............you know, one of those toys that gets left lying out in the driveway and you run over it backing out in the morning? MB is a wonderful place to wander in, but it can be more time-consuming that I ever imagined, and hard to leave for some serious work time!

Take care. You're doing better than you think.

t&l

Hi T&L,

I'm still hoping things will settle down - but that's what I was hoping while I was married (which I still am, but you know what I mean).

I won't wait too long. Maybe I'll get my lawyer to send her a stern letter. That might shake her a little. I think I'll wait til after it's final before taking any action.

I had a nice visit with DD today. We had a discipline session. She was being defiant - which is certainly one of her most unfortunate weak points. I started taking things away from her - something to which she reacts quite strongly - and after 40 minutes, she melted into "I'm sorry"s and all was made right and we had a lovely evening.

<whew>!

I don't enjoy dealing with her defiance. I know it has to be broken, but it's no fun at all. She'll have to go to kindegarten in a year and by then, she'll have to be ready to follow instructions, comply with commands, pay attention, respond to questions - all that stuff - and sit up strait in a row for hours. We've got our year's work cut out for us.

-AD

AD, you are doing good things with your DD. No the discipline is not fun but if you weren't strong with her I am certain she would grow up with the same entitlement issues your WW has. <patting AD on the back>

Thanks FF.

Today, WW called and started in on "when are you going to get the house sold". She wants her money out of it. I told her not to call me at work - and hung up. This is the first time ever that she didn't immediately call back. Maybe she's getting better.

-AD

I see real strength in your defiance marathon with your DD. You showed this by taking the time to see the thing through until she "broke." A good pattern for the future, too. If it takes 40 minutes, take 40 minutes. Doesn't matter how long, once you start it, see it through to the end. I once had a marathon with Neakbro and Flard that lasted 2-1/2 days!!! It all started one morning when I told them to clean up their room. Instead of doing what they were told, they played and messed in their room all morning. So I said they couldn't eat lunch until they finished. Suppertime rolled around, without any improvement. So they went to bed without food, because they didn't clean AFTER dinner, either. Next day they got up and were supposed to get it done before breakfast. At suppertime on the 2nd day, they still hadn't done a thing in the way of progress, not that they didn't come out and whine regularly about being hungry! They simply would NOT obey. The next day, we started in again. Breakfast passed, and so did lunch. By suppertime, when they were still playing, I was getting frustrated, and a bit uncomfortable with not feeding them for so long (not that they were in any danger of starving!). Finally I told them that we were having macaroni and cheese for supper, and went out to fix it. Ten minutes later, their room was completely cleaned, and their appetites for the meal were excellent, let me tell you!

If I'd known how long it was going to take, I don't think I'd have started that particular consequence. But once it was in place, I didn't think I could safely back down, either. Too many parents start a disciplinary action, and then when it drags on longer than they thought, back down or get distracted by something else, and the child learns that if they just hold out long enough, the parent will give up and go away. So taking your confrontation through till the end was a good idea, speaks well of your parenting dedication and skill, and will pay off for you in the long run. Two thumbs up to you, AD.

t&l

Good man.

gc

T&L,

Thanks for the encouragment in my parenting. We've got a little defiant one. We know it, but we're not curing it very quickly.

I know that you are right about not backing down. It does take a lot of time and since I only have a few hours a week with my daughter, I want them to be pleasant hours. Otherwise, frankly, I'm afraid that she will not want to come to my house. But I realize that it's more important that my time with her be productive - in the sence that I am making a positive influence on her, than that it be pleasant.

When your child is screaming "No!" and hitting you (on the leg, which is about as high as she can reach, LOL), the alternative of just giving her what she wants seem pretty good. But, then all I have to do is remember that someday she'll be 14, and giving her what she wants will become increasingly dangerous and impractical - and if she's going to get used to not getting what she wants, she'd better get used to it sooner, rather than later.

Oh, and although it is an example of really slow response on my part.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Did you see the commercial where the lady having a romantic dinner with the guy tells him "I love you", and he just sits there and makes no response, so finally she gets up and leaves, and as she walks away he says "I love you too". I don't remember what they were trying to sell, so I guess that commercial was a failure, LOL.

As I was about to say, about the toy that somebody backed over. <AD, erupts into hearty laughter, barely able to contain himself> LOL. <but, of course, t&l is long gone and even forgot what she posted days ago>.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD

GC,

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

To follow up on that, I was driving yesterday after lunch - going back to the other house to continue a project I had begun in the morning, when I stopped at a red light. I saw WW's car about to turn out (in the left turn lane on the crossing street). She saw me and was making hand signals. I picked up my cell and called. She said "I was going to call you, but I was afraid you would be unpleasant." Then she rattled on about what they did that morning etc. I ended the call (I think pleasantly) and drove on to do what I was planning to do.

I don't like being characterized as "unpleasant". I suppose it is always "unpleasant" to hear "no" or to hear "I don't want to talk to you now". But, is it fair to call it that?

<sigh>

I'll just have to live with it, LOL.

Oh, and GC, I read your thread occationally and am impressed by what you are posting - but don't feel up to responding. I think you are doing well.

-AD

Update:

I had a really good day yesterday. I was up before 6 (after 7 hour's sleep!) and stayed busy all day with various chores, repairs, etc. - finished the last item about 11pm and went promptly to bed and to sleep. I was up at 6:30 today. I'm going to kill this sleeplessness beast by just making sure I'm exhausted every day. So far, it's working. If I can do that for 3 weeks, it will become a habit. (so they say, and I believe them when they say it).

-AD

Better teach her while she's short and can only reach your leg. She's gonna get taller, and be able to reach higher altogether too soon, if you get my drift! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> As I tell my grandchildren when I'm the responsible adult: "Obedience is first. Fun comes afterwards." I can actually be a lot of fun with the kids, and enjoy having a good time with them...but, by George, they're going to mind first.


I certainly did NOT forget my own deathless prose. I remembered it right after I went back and hunted it up and re-read it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Well, it's true. After all the humiliating unveilings on the feminine hygiene products thread, why on earth would it matter if I go one step further and admit that my house strongly resembles my granddaughter's bicycle after her little brother dropped it behind their mother's car? Once your embarrassment cup overflows, it doesn't really matter how much more you pour in it! Glad you found the metaphor funny. I live to amuse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Well, T&L, your house is lived in. It's not a museum.

My house, isn't lived in much, and it suffers from the appearance of abandonment. It's getting a little better, but nothing to take pictures of.

Actually, to be brutally honest, my homeowners insurance was cancelled recently because somebody from the home office came out and did take pictures. Today, I got new insurance from a different company for about 40% less than the first company. Now, I'm glad they came and took pictures. But, my agent warned that the new company will be out with their cameras too - so I continue in the sport of presidents (clearing brush) if not daily, then at least weekly. I think it's OK now, but there is much more to do.

WW noticed the improvement when she came by this evening to pick up DD (who was with me while her Mom was in class).

UPDATE;

As WW picked up DD this evening, WW said something like "This is going to be a hard week. I can't believe we are doing this. Friday is the last day we can do something to stop it. Sometimes I wonder if we are crazy. etc." I said something like "Send me an email with your proposal. But, as long as you keep lying to me, I'm not very interested." She got her feelings hurt "I don't like it when you call me a liar. I am not a liar". I reminded her of what she told me last sunday about the computer she got from OM (but said was from "a friend of her nephew"). She replied with some gobledeegoop, including that her nephew met OM and got along with him well (as if that was supposed to warm my heart). She asked me "how would it have been better if I told you the computer was from OM?" Well, I replied "then you would not have lied to me." She didn't get it - didn't see the advantage of that. Her last words to me as she got in the car "I am not a liar!" So, still, she has (in her eyes) not done anything "really wrong".

-AD

Is that what we're calling nouveau trashe these days?


I don't know. We've got some pretty ancient artifacts in there. Besides HP and me, I mean.



All that exercise is good for you. And not bad for the house, either.


I'm surprised you haven't put your <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> on a spit and spun 'em around the rotisserie by now, having to listen to all this nonsense from such a self-justifying, relentlessly self-absorbed woman! I'm not sure she'll ever be able to find any man who loves her more than she loves herself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&L,

Thanks for the friendly reparte (sp?)

Well, the D should be final on Monday - which means Friday is the last day we could pull the plug on it. I don't think I'm going to do that.

I'm taking next week off - and friday afternoon probably too, although neither weekend will be "my weekend" (with DD). So, I'll have 9 days of working on the houses - with one midweek overnight with DD and one other evening. I plan to stay off the computer - just live in "real life" - no TV, no Internet - just sweat and maybe I'll read a book or two - or take a day and drive somewhere.

And about the leg-hitting and stuff. I read that. I appologize for not replying immediately. Really, I have a problem. People post to me and I read and enjoy but forget to respond. That's a worrysome habit and could be a problem in my marriage. Maybe it's all my fault. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Just a quick note then it's back to the grindstone. What kind of stuff are you reading? Would you like to read a copy of Neak's book? I'll send you one. You'll like it. (Is that a prediction, or an order? Only you can tell!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&L,

I would gladly buy a copy of Neak's book. Just tell me where I can order it.

An ISBN might come in handy and I can probably take it from there.

Mothers of authors, in my opinion, shouldn't undermine the value of their offspring's work by giving it away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But, of course, they can't help it. LOL

I would be honored to have a copy - and if it is simply impossible to buy it, you can send me one.

Drop me an email at [email]mb11094@yahoo.com.[/email]

Better yet, if you are on e*bay, put one up for auction and email (or post) the auction ID.

-AD

Oh, and to answer your question, "nothing". (that is, what I'm reading)

On my nightstand, unread, is a copy of "A pattern Language" - a book about architecture and city planning. I have another book on city planning in the floor in the other room (with all the other books that I don't have bookcase space for). I don't know why they made it to the top of the pile. Perhaps because they have nothing to do with anything - except perhaps my house.

One factoid from "A Pattern language": People generally dislike rooms which do not have windows providing natural light on at least two sides. They tend to gravitate to those which do - even if they are otherwise not exceptional rooms. Even if it is not a corner room, it is often possible to arrange this.

My reaction to this "I'm at home at night mostly. My office has no window. In the winter, no room has natural light between 5:30pm and 7am. When are all the smarty pants architects going to figure that out." And then I ponder what I can do about it. Oh yes, get a better office. Hmmm. That requires that I dig in and do some career-building.

I'd better get to sleep. So, I put down the book.

-AD

Of course it's possible to buy it. I just don't want to be accused of crass commercialism, or abusing the MB site, by hyping a book for which Neak will earn a whole whopping $1.08 in royalties next Feburary! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'll be in touch, but I've got to stay in front and pay attention to what's going on until I can get a real break.

t&l

Hey AD,

Read your post on GC's campfire.

" I find that so often all I have to do is do something different. Sometimes just driving home by a different route makes me feel alive. Tonight, I brought a bicycle over from the other house, put some air in the tires and rode around in circles for about 10 minutes. That did it. Then, I realized that my old car (that used to be WW's old car, that I should have sold by now) was in the way, so I moved it. It's been sitting in the same spot for 3 months - since my van's AC was fixed. Then I realized that the old car wasn't so bad as I had remembered - and I drove to the store in it to buy some things - ending up looking at lighting - and dreaming all kinds of lighting projects around the house. There's nothing like lighting to perk things up - and even if you go all out (except for crystal chandaliers), you won't spend a lot of money. But, I came home with a $5 dimmer, and $3 face plate nd a $6 replacement floodlight fixture. Still, I was happy. Moving the old car around back made me happy. LOL Stupid me. I've got a circular drive and the old car was parked on the circle - so for 3 months I've been backing out every day. LOL Bright, aren't I?! I'm really laughing at myself now. I get like that - just not seeing where I live - not noticing my surroundings - and then, in a brilliant flash of insight, I relize "I could drive forward out of here if I moved the old car around back." LOL LOL

I'm a simple man, really.

I'm still laughing at myself.

Life is good. The moon was full a day or two ago. I love fall weather. October is my favorite month. Blue sky (instead of chalk-colored), cooler weather. It's around the corner. I can smell the cotton defoliant in the air. It's the smell of autumn (but we call it "fall" around here.) LOL."

Tooo Funny and GOOD for you!!

I really think that you will be OK. I drove thru "Bama on our way to Panama City this summer and kept looking around for you and your place! I forgot how pretty Birmingham is (not city, mountains/hills around it). It has been (clears throat)many years, uh, around 20+, since I have been down that way. My unc and aunt live in Birm tho, wish I would've had time to stop and say Hi.

Keep up the good recovery work, AD!

jls

Just checking in and letting you know I am thinking of you, AD

Ah, I see the three Magi have been here.

T&L, you have mail.

JLS,

Nice of you to copy my post from the other thread. I would have done it myself, but I was afraid it would like like I'm trying to make sure that everybody reads it - and I'm sure folks on MB have got other threads to read - where somebody is actually trying to build a marriage.

I don't think I saw you drive by. pity. Probably you went down 65 - and missed me by 10 miles.

FF,

Thanks. It's nice to be part of a community of caring people.

------

No particular news today. WW called - asked about plans for DD's midweek visit. We agreed on the time and place I am to pick her up tomorrow afternoon. She seemed really anxious - chattered nervously. I asked her to have her car title in hand when next we meet and I'll sign the back (since it is in both our names) so she can have it re-issued in her name alone.

There are only a few more financial ties that connect us, which will be cut soon. She'll have some more expenses to provide what I previously provided for her.

-AD

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I brought you a book. (Gold, compliments of Neak) Who's bringing the frankincense and myrrh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

ARRGGH! I lost my post again!

OK, short version.

Hello and thanks to all of you who have encouraged me and kept me company on the way. Thanks for the book, T&L. I took forward to it!

Nothing much new here.

When I picked up DD this afternoon, WW asked if she could come too. I said that I didn't think anything had fundamentally changed, so probably not. She asked "Don't you want to have one last evening as a family?" I just looked at her. "Well, you can call me later if you want me to come over", she said.

I didn't call.

DD is sleeping.

I will be sleeping soon myself.

I'm wondering. Why does she suggest this on my night with DD? She could suggest it on a night that DD is with her. I think she's just lonely when DD is not there.

Oh, I took my van in to the shop this morning. They gave me a ride to work on their "courtesy van" (sp?). There was only one other passenger, who was dropped off first - downtown - in the legal district. She said she worked for the family court. I told her that my D was coming up. She asked "which judge?" She said he usually will sign it on the day the 30 days are up. There should be no delay on that end.

-AD

AD,

Sorry things are working out this way for you.

What a strange suggestion for WW to make! Did she think it would be just like ole' times?

Ok, so the WW is still wrapped up about her. Can't do much about that.....

Great that you were given more insight into the court procedures. Hm.... see how things come your way? Ok, just informations but valuable.

Right now love your little one. Don't listen to babble. The WS is hurting but of her own choosing. If you help her, she will just suck you into her world of hurt. Your best help to her is to stick to what you have been doing. Letting her deal with her pain of choice issues.

When she is really ready to heal, you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt. No kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

I freely admit that I haven't read lots of everybody's threads on this site. I just don't have the time to work as much as I do and spend that much time reading. So it's possible that I've missed the description of somebody who surpasses your wife as a chain jerker extraordinaire, OK? But I've got to say, AD, that I am totally impressed with that woman. She's incredible. She really is.

Look at the options she provided herself with this latest "offer." If you say yes, please come over she can (a) say no and enjoy smacking you down one last time before it's too late, or (b) say yes and feel that she now controls the situation because you still "want" her. Either way, she perceives power in HER hands. If she comes over for the evening, she can either spend the night (in a wifely sense) or not, for the same reasons as above. Power--she'd have it, you wouldn't. I'm kinda wondering if she is hesitating at the brink here, but would like for you to be the one who pulls everything back together, you to be the one who does the wanting, you to be the one who does the conceding, the forgiving, the work--while she, by giving or withholding according to the whim of the moment, holds the power in the relationship.

Whether or not you thought this all through analytically or not at the time, it seems to me you handled it just right by not responding to her "offer" (haha) with either hostile rejection or eager interest. You are the one with the power right now, which is as it should be--neither a beggar willing to do anything for a few more crumbs of attention or affection, nor a human punching bag just looking for another chance to be mentally or emotionally clobbered! There is a certain safety in some aloofness at this point. Let her suffer from some of the uncertainty which she brought into your life. It will do her character a world of good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I can sure pick 'em, can't I!

Actually, W is the only one I ever picked. I like her, actually. She's cute too - and thin - and has a very expressive face - and is sometimes not terrible to live with (but only briefly). And I have a compassionate feeling for her, maybe it is or was "love", whatever that is.

I'm sorry it comes to this - especially for our daughter.

But, for me, life is not so bad just now.

I'm lonely, but I'll fix that.

I'm lucky to have what I have - and to make it through this, um, experience with some chance that in 2 years or so, I'll have my house back paid for and be able to afford to live a little.

T&L, No,I didn't think it through that way. If I had asked her to come, she would have come. If she slept here, I wouldn't have touched her - letting her have the power if she wants it. So, if she started something, I don't know that I could refuse. Sorry. I'm just not good at saying "no" to my very own one and only wife.

I just knew that it wouldn't do anything good for us. I don't need any more false hopes. If we get back together, it will be through long, tough conversations, not through sharing a bed. I don't expect it. I'll not be planning for it. I'll be making other plans.

Orchid,

Oh yes, she is certainly the center of her own universe.

A.M.M.

Thanks for stopping by. Sorry I haven't been tracking your situation. Last I read you were planning a move. I hope everything is going OK.

As for my W, I've given up trying to figure her out - or maybe I've finished figuring her out.

-AD

Whew! Damned with faint praise! I am reminded of the opinion I have formed over the years...there are WORSE things than living alone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Then your instinct was great, and served you well. A sensitive, intuitive male. Will wonders never cease? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to those idiots @ the USPS (I'm sure MS wouldn't be offended by that!), your book can't go out until morning, but it's 1st class so it shouldn't take more than 2-3 years! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there.

t&L

AD, I've never posted to you but I keep up with your story. Will be praying for you today.
cc

Hi AD,

Just wondering how you are? ISn't today the day? Hope you feel like posting soon and letting us know how it went and how you are dealing?

Thinking of you and sending good vibes your way! If you feel like talking, well, you know we are here.

jls

Hi AD -

I just wanted to let you know that I am following along and sorry for the situation you find yourself in.

I hope all is well with you.

Georgia

T&L, CC46, JLS, FGG,

Thanks ot each of you for remembering me today.

I'm trying to stay off the internet this week - and just work as much as I can around the ---> houses <--- that's two of 'em.

Update:

WW and I exchanged a few emails yesterday. ( She knows I prefer email, but was stubbornly refusing to reply to any of mine, but finally relented because it was the only open channel to me. ) Basicly she was becoming upset in advance about the stepmother issue. I told her there was no stepmother and if, at some time in the future, it seemed that there might be, we could discuss it then, but for now, I would not get into a contest of proving now that I won't do some horrible thing in the future.

We ended with a couple of constructive emails about DD's activities and the issues requiring work over this year to prepare her for entering kindergarten next fall.

Today, DD had a doctors appointment. I met XW (?) there so I would be in the loop on that. ( Dr said leave the stiches in until Friday. ) W was asking me in the waiting room "how do you feel." "Fine", I replied. And I do.

She had a run-in with her downstairs neighbor this morning - which seems to have upset her quite a bit. The girl downstairs (about 20-year-old student who is shacked up with her boyfriend) was pounding on the door and shouting. W came out of the shower and threw something on. The girl was complaining that DD running around the apartment makes too much noise.

WW (XW?) said that the boyfriend was standing out there at first, but she wasn't dressed, and when she came back to the door, only the girl was there. XW said that it would have been easier to talk to the guy - since men are usually less emotional about things and easier to talk to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> She said it is difficult to be yelled at and made the bad guy when all the person had to do was complain in a controlled and reasonable manner. I said "I understand completely". XW started to ask "how do you know?", but understood my drift and just looked at me.

Well, there was a time when I would have taken care of that, but that time has passed. WW will just have to handle it.

Thanks again to each of you for remembering me today.
I know each of you is also in the midst of difficult struggles.

-AD

Thinking of you today, AD.

Hey AD,

Came back in from the barn (have to get to bus pickup at end of driveway soon) and checked in and here ya are. Glad to hear you are feeling ok?. I would worry that you are in denial, but it might be more like you have already done the majority of your grieving. Sounds like XW? has some 2nd or 3rd thoughts (stepmother thing huh?)!

I know what you mean about staying off the internet, I have had a busy summer. Hope you don't stay away too long, tho, like I did.

Did you ever read my post about driving thru Birm area? I know we discussed where you live before and then you were into staying mysteriously lost, but I did forget whereabouts in A you lived....

See (?) ya later,
jls

Hi AD:

Good 2 hear you're doing okay. ...whatever happened 2day!

best,
-ol' 2long

Peerless prose perambulating peripatetically, um, eastward. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Take care. Better days are ahead.

t&l

AD..As I read this today I remember being here in my life and I just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you. Been real busy with new job and just followed this thread...Keep your head up and it sounds like you'll be OK...good takes time....but it will come...

FF, JLS, 2Long, T&L, SMOMY,

Thanks to each of you for thinking of me today.

I'm OK, but not clearheaded enough to post.

DD was with me this afternoon and tonight. There were some problems - defiant child - conflicts with XW. DD had dance tonight. Both XW and I were there, which is a error I intend to correct.

I was disapointed at how poorly DD seemed to listen to the instructor. XW, correctly, pointed out that I should have hidden my disapointment and just told DD how proud I was of her and how nice she looked in her dance outfit. I messed that up. Even the instructor could see that I looked disapointed, and she (instructor) told me that all the other girls were doing this last year and DD is doing well considering that. OK, but why does she look at the wall when the instructor is talking etc. etc? We've got work to do. Forget marriage, this is about DD - getting her up to speed on life - and ready for kindergarten. I never learned to dance, and it's not about that, but in any class - especially one that supposed to be a "treat", listlessness is not an attitude I find encouraging or endearing.

XW's attitute toward my visitation is that it's something nice she's doing for me, and that I should "appreciate" that she doesn't tell DD bad things about me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> She says "I think that these things need to be flexible", which means that we ought to do it her way. I am supposed to have DD wednesdays, but XW wants to take DD to choir at church on Wednesday, so, just to be nice, I agreed to Tuesday, but wait, there's dance on Tuesdays - so XW comes along too - and calls me names, argues with me about visitation time in front of DD, on and on. She asked about Christmas. I replied that this year, I have her from 6pm December 25, until 8am January 3rd. To which XW says "We'll see about that! What if I want to go visit my parents?". Well, she'll either have to without DD, or she can go before Christmas.

See, I told you I'm too tired to post.

blech!
... edited to add ...
OT: Architecture/houses etc.

Oh, one spark I got from the "Pattern Language" (architecture and city planning) book (that mentioned a few days ago that I was reading) was about alcoves. I walked around my house and found a few places that would make good alcove sitting spots. I put a chair in one of them with a little table in front of it. I sat there for a moment and Wow! It resonates! As soon as DD came in, she went and sat there. It feels right. I'm excited about it! I want to create a little booth like place there, with a swag lamp hanging over it. It's in the living room! But who cares, it feels right! So, even if I don't agree with the political slant, there are some nuggets in that book. Yeah, I've read it elsewhere, but it reminded me about it - and I can really feel how it enhances a room to have places like that - that just feel right when you sit in them.

Today, DD and I went to a couple of furniture stores looking for something to put there, but I think I'm going to have to build it myself.

I found an outdoor spot too that looks promising - in an inside corner agaist the brick wall of the house - and I want to build a micro-deck about 4'x6' to put there. I haven't tried sitting there yet, but it looks like a good spot.

My backyard, BTW, looks wonderfully transformed already by the cleanup I've been doing. I'm excited about that. I've got the brick patio cleaned off (which was covered with ??? vines and stuff).

When I get up every morning, I just want to go outside and continue with my cleanup - which feels good. I'm glad I took the week off.

-AD

Huh???

???? The best words walking into the sunrise ????

-AD

I expect to have up's and downs. But my D is easier than others, because we never had good times in our marriage. There were pleasant hours here and there, but no sustained good times. We've been separated now for 4 months - and we had an earlier semi-separation for 18 months (starting when DD was 6 months). I rarely miss my wife. I do miss my daughter, but not as much as I feared. I feel very sorry for DD. Her life is all messed up now. She's doing as well as can be expected.


You might have missed my reply. I'm almost in Huntsville.

-AD

FF,

It's kind of you to think of me. I read part of your meltdown thread, but didn't have any wise words for you. I appologize that I didn't post there. I hope you are feeling better today.

-AD

2L,

I know you're going through interesting times right now. Some people have been pushing you one way or t'other. I have no wisdom to impart. You have to read your situation and play it as you see it. I respect that.

-AD

A cool book on the way to your house! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. If you can think of a "p" word that means east, I'll change it so it all "matches!"

I at least have to give her credit for consistency--bad temper, bad judgment, bad attitude, etc. Hope you still have some legal options, even after the divorce is final, to get proper visitation rights in some enforceable format.

t&l

Oh, she's not that bad really.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If you say so, AD...but if I keep my mouth shut, may I keep my opinion?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

She's lost, T&L, stumbling in the dark. That's not the same as just plain bad. Don't forget she was born in a war - the only survivor of a masacre at the age of around 5 - probably saw her birth-mother shot to death in front of her. Cut her some slack. She's on a journey - just as you have been. She'll get stronger and wiser year by year. I believe in her.

-AD

I guess it's final, eh AD?

Don't know what to say, so I'll just say "hi".

Well, weaves, I guess it is. I won't know until I get something in the mail, but from what I understand the judge should have signed it Monday.

Right now, I'm going to unload my van (load from the other house) and go to choir practice. I haven't been to church in a couple of months - but we have a new music minister and I figure the best way to jump back in is with both feet.

I used to be in the choir, but quit after we married, because W was lonely and jealous when I was there.

-AD

I always loved singing in the choir, but I didn't have the voice for it. Boy my little brother did though, my mom and dad too.

I love the choir at church.

Good for you!

singing is good therapy

Hi Pep.

Hi weaver. I don't have much of a voice anymore myself, but it doesn't matter about the voice, and probably your voice is fine anyway. When you put them together, a bunch of old croakers croaking together can sound pretty good!

Choir practice was wonderful!

Wow I miss that - quit the choir not long after we married. Several people greeted me like it was just last week (except for the surprised look on their faces - and the extra grey and extra pounds all around).

The lady playing the piano for rehearsal played for our wedding. She's got 4 kids and it looks like she's starting to show a bit of wear, LOL. I'd bet they're great kids, though. The choir room was almost completely full. The new choir director (and his wife), I went to church with in high school. They didn't remember me, but know my brother very well - and wanted to get together with him. I'll try to invite both him and them when he's back in town (gotta get the house a bit straighter by then, tho).

In short, it was a fine evening.

I called XW this afternoon and told her I wanted Thursdays to be my overnight with DD until the end of the year. It was supposed to be Wednesday, but she kept begging. She agreed. I had decided that I wanted to rejoin the choir, and this way, I'll have DD all to myself with no scheduled activity (unless I schedule it).

Well, now I'm going to open Neak's book and see what it's all about.

-AD

Hello MB'ers.

Well, I've had my week's vacation - and tomorrow I've got to go to work. Unfortunately, I've "fallen ill". I'm going to bed in a few minutes - hoping to get 8+ hours of sleep - maybe 10!

All in all, it was a good week. When I return to health, I plan to continue on the new track - just getting things done that need to be done - and making or remaking connections - and moving forward.

W (XW) was here for a couple of hours this afternoon - shared some grilled burgers. My aim right now, is to do what is comfortable - not always a good strategy, but for now, it is mine.

This was not supposed to be "my weekend" (meaning my visitation with our daughter), but W - sensing it has been a long time since I had one (we switched the 2nd and 3rd weekends), suggested I take this one and we worked a kind of split deal which I think will work for me.

DD was with me Friday night and yesterday, and XW came and got her - to take her to church this morning. We've agreed that DD should go to one church rather than going back and forth to two. There are enough splits in her life right now without that.

I had intended to go sing in the choir this morning and suggested that XW take DD to church (at what we'll call "DD's church"). I didn't feel well enough to go, but after church they came back here and I grilled some burgers - and after W hung around a bit, I agreed that since I'm sick, DD should go home with her Mom - so they went back to W's apt.

Next weekend is my family reunion, and I will have DD on Sunday all day for that. As she left, XW suggested I get DD next Saturday night, so we can leave early in the morning for the reunion (about 2.5 hours drive each way). That was nice of her - and, since I gave up the overnight tonight, it evens it out so that I don't lose any overnights with DD - but split them between two weekends.

I know that was confusing. Short version, we're getting along more smoothly with the visitation times.

DD will be with me for 3 hours while XW is in class tomorrow evening - and Thursday, I will get her at 2 in the afternoon until 8am Friday morning, them back to me Saturday evening, and back to her Mom Sunday evening after we return from the reunion. Clear? And why should it matter, LOL.

The two important points in this
1) With these midweek visits plus the extra time while XW is in class, I see DD almost every day - at least every other day. This demonstrates the correctness of my choice to accept the standard visitation; which I got without a fight - thus sparing us an expensive and painful struggle that might have ended with the same result - only taking a year more to get there.
2) On the other hand, in seeing DD so frequently, I also see and communicate with my XW - which may be bad or good depending on your point of view, but is hardly what one expects when contemplating the idea of "divorce".

For T&L and Neak : I finished "Malchus" this evening. It was a good read and recomendable. I'm not much of a book reviewer, so I'll spare the detailed analysis. I liked it - hope I can get the next one when it's available. I did find it for sale on an Adventist Book source online - so the next one, I'll buy, but thank you very much for sending it to me.

-AD

I never meant to imply that she was "just plain bad." But accidental lost and on purpose lost are each one every bit as confused as the other, and the fact that she (we can all hope with you) will someday be able to think more clearly, and function more calmly, doesn't make her any less topsy-turvy right now. My belief that anybody can change is one of the major lessons of the Saga, but until then...

Glad you liked the book. Hope you're feeling better soon.

t&l

Just my $.02 worth here, so you don't have to open a new bank account just to "save" it, but I think it's an excellent idea, as long as you can emotionally handle it yourself. If for no other reason than for your DD's sake, it's good to keep as deeply-involved in their lives as possible, since every kid needs at least one grownup paying attention to what's going on, and it doesn't necessarily sound like your XW is able to be that person on a consistent basis. There are advantages to XW, too, but we've sort of talked about them already, and at this point it might be easier for you to just tell yourself you're doing this for DD than for some other however-noble aim.

t&l

Hi T&L,

Thanks for the comments.

To be honest, I'm not doing it for DD, but for me! If I had wanted to do something sacrificial for DD, I would have stayed married to her mom.

I'm awake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> because I could not sleep. Dang cold. I drove to walgreens at 2am to buy that liquid lighttime cold medicine - you know the one. Nasty green stuff. Now, I'm waiting for it to start working.

-AD

I called XW this evening - to make arrangments for visitation schedule. She was just walking in the door - had the mail in her hand. She got the notice with the Judge's signature. She asked "how did we get here?"

After she put DD to bed, she called back, talked for over an hour - mostly about schools for DD - but other things as well. She said she wanted to make me some chicken soup yesterday (I've been sick), but didn't know if it was appropriate. She makes the best chicken soup in the world, actually. I guess the thought counts, but she didn't make the soup. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I didn't get my notice yet.

I'm trying to put together a little trip to go out and see SS next month. I hope that works out.

Choir practice was OK, but I was pretty shot from being sick for the last few days.

Speaking of which, I should be in bed now.

G'night.

-AD

Kewl! Hope you are feeling better, AD.

In what general area is that, if it's permissible to ask? It sounded like he lived outside the continental US, and Neaksis commented on it at the time. Trips are nice. Solo trips are WAY nice, as far as I'm concerned. I hope to have another before I die. You have fun, now!

t&l

The latitude is 37.104N. The longitude is -113.583W.

That may be closer than you wanted, but it is accurate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SS

The short answer: Adultery.

Isn't that somewhere in China?

"two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do"

-Qfwfq

Isn't that somewhere in China?

The Chinese Premier would like it to be.

Not yet though, not yet.

Nice to hear from you 2long. Been out of earth's orbit yet this month?

SS

SS:

Nope, still on Mars!

...you see, you used a double negative - a minus west is an east! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Qfwfq

Great! Now all I have to do is get my physicist son to translate for me, and I'll know exactly what you're talking about! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

t&l

2long,
I just copied it from the info site I stole it from.
You are way ahead of me.

Though, I put it in an astronomy program once and it took it correctly and found the right chart for my night sky.

Some of us (you) understand, and some of us (me) just look it up.

SS

SS:

Wanna hear something cool?

Planetary scientists (geologist, at least, geophysicists don't really count) measure longitude of planets as increasing in the direction that the planet rotates "under you". So, Mars longitude is measured increasing west from 0-360 degrees. No need for "east" and "west" longitude. Venus rotates retrograde (it's day is longer than it's year), so longitude is measured increasing east from 0-360.

The same should be true for Earth, but people have gotten set in their ways. Like when I was in undergrad school, we had quadrant Bruntons, and strike and dip of layered rocks would be stated like N45E, dipping 45° SE. But you could also say that S45W, dipping 45° SE, and still be correct. Along came computers and computer programs, and so new conventions were invented to make input to computer programs a lot easier. And if you decide, say, to always list the strike as a simple azimuth from 0-360 and stipulate that the dip is always down and to the right from that azimuth, then all you have to type into a computer program is two numbers separated by a comma. In that case, the N45E strike, 45° SE dip can be stated simply 45,45, and everybody knows what that means! (but 225,45 would NOT be saying the same thing).

It's important! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Qfwfq

Good to see you Qfwfq!

Well, I keyed it into Google Earth and it doesn't take negative numbers, but when I made it east, it sure is in China.

If you leave off the minus and keep it West, it gets me there.

You have mail, SS - lots of it, LOL.

-AD

I wish I had come up with that as a comeback!

-AD

Oh, and I recieved my papers today.

Done and done.

-AD

If you say so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <AD scratches his head>

Hey AD. I'm the night owl tonight.

Google Earth is too cool for the room. I use it at work quite a lot. I'll post a link to some of my stuff as soon as I get it on a webpage.

GC

{{{AD}}} How are you feeling friend? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm fine, FF, other than having a cold/flu or whatever it is.

I "get" abstractions. So, I was divorced when I knew the judge should have signed the papers. Recieving them didn't make any difference. My xw is more concrete. Recieving the papers had more effect on her.

Thanks for asking.

I'm very very late for work!

-AD

Gosh,
You guys are right,
I got a little different address on Google Earth.
37.06'27.28" N 113.33'37.73" W

2long, and AD, thanks for setting me straight.

This cut and paste stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be. That, and I'm dumber than I like to admit. Oh well, it makes you guys look good anyway.

AD,
I don't know how you are feeling, but it's gotta be hard sometimes. A trip will probably do you good.


Your daughter is so cute, I bet your time with her is special. Little girls seem to find their way into their fathers hearts early on.

Hope you get some work done (both you guys.)

SS

Hi SS, GC, FF and anybody else who wanders in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm feeling good tonight. Inexplicably. I think my cold has released it's grip. I just have a very positive attitude right now.

Unfortunatley, it's time to go to bed and I'm feeling too revved up - so I'll go clean the kitchen or something. That ought to dampi things down a bit.

SS, I'm sure you just added a minus sign inadvertantly. Anybody could do the same.

GC, sorry I didn't acknowledge your comment about how cool Google Earth is. I've been very tired the last few days and not much up to posting. Much better now.

The first evening I found Google Earth, I think I stayed up all night - til the dawn was beginning to break - just looking all over the earth at everything and anything -and nothing at all. Did you ever look at K2? It's in the middle of nowhere. I though it was in the same region as Everest - but it's way over by Pakistan. I like to tilt it down a bit and (with terraine on, of course) spin around something and just look at it.

I found the great pyramid. Just look for Giza, Egypt and pan over to the "left" i.e. West - and not far after you cross over into desert, there it is.

The Eifel tower casts a nice shadow, don't you think.

Oh, you can go on for hours, just looking at every one of your friends' houses (if they live in an area of high-res imagery).

OK, time for kitchen-cleaning!

-AD

No, he didn't add the minus sign inadvertently. He was trying to confuzz us all. AJ wrote it down wrong, too, and we ended up WAY out in the Pacific Ocean, with a red star sitting in the middle of the blue. I had to zoom out about 5 times before I was able to confirm that we were somewhere near the international date line, in miles of water. Fortunately, that physicist son of mine was able to sort things out, and place SS in his proper location. Not only that, but when I read him the erstwhile 2long's science post, he was able to understand it perfectly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He certainly didn't get it from me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Now I can make him jealous that I'm posting on the same thread with a "famous" scientist. Are you famous, erstwhile 2long? I told him you were, so please be, OK?

Glad you're feeling better, AD--physically and mentally. Keep on swimming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Wow. Just wanted to let you know, I read your post and well..... here's an {{{{MB hug}}}.

Aloha,
L.

2long is famous, my kids have seen him on TV.

Actually,
You are all famous to me.

SS

Thanks for the hugz, Orchid. I'm really quite OK. I'm looking forward to the future - which I anticipate will be very nice, really.

I want a family, and honestly, that's not so impossible to work out - even at 47. I seem healthy (so far as I know), I'll be OK financially when "our" house is sold, and even better when I'm done paying temp. alimony. I have my freedom. Life is good, and I'm glad to be alive.

-AD

47?!?!?!? Musta been a good year. I'm using those #s this year. Well at least for another month. LOL!!! At this stage, I think I am going to lose a year instead of gain a year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

U R still young. At heart at the very least. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

U have a good outlook on life. Hope you don't get snatched until u r ready. Gotta watch out for my 'classmates'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Hi AD -

I'm glad things are going okay for you. You can join the ranks of us newly single middle aged men. (Well, I'm ALMOST single!).

I know that you, like I, never imagined you would find yourself in this situation. But...it can certainly be liberating after so many years of putting up with the same ol' stuff of WW and OM.

Hope to see you in Atlanta.

Georgia

Orchid,

You said...


Hmmm. I'll just assume this is an affirmative vote. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Parts of me are hardly used at all. LOL.


I'm ready!

-AD

FGG,

"Liberating". Yes, that's the word.

But... I never wanted to "liberated" from a commited marriage and family. What I've been liberated from is a marriage to an uncommited and unfaithful wife, who also happens to have been extremely difficult to live with. I would never have divorced her because she was difficult to live with, but well... it did make it easier to accept.

I have been "intimate" with exactly one person in my life: My one and only wife. I wanted it to be "til death". I would have prefered to wear my ring forever, to be lowered into the ground with it still on my finger. It's in a drawer now.

I gave her a full chance. I could have done better, but I don't believe that I am significantly at fault in the failure of this marriage.

I can be happy alone. I can be happy with friends or at work, but...

I really did, and do, want a family. Despite the disadvantage of my age, I know it is possible. I can do it. Maybe some would say that I should "be realistic" or say that I'm being selfish or even ridiculous, that its unfair to ask a younger woman to marry me and give me children. But creating a family is my mission right now. I know there are women who want that, and for whom I'll be "good enough" - maybe even more than that. I'll make it.

-AD

I posted this on Greycloud's thread, so tHis is a shameless cross-post - just so I can keep all my important stuff on my thread.

Hey, good people,

I just realized that I'm feeling so positive about life, that I could spend the night in the other house - at "our" house. For a long time, I felt this huge heaviness being there - but I'm rounding up my camping gear (something padded to sleep on since there is no furniture there), and heading out. I was planning to do some work over there tomorrow anyway.

I feel like I'm doing something exotic, LOL. I mean, sleeping in my other house - which is now this empty spooky place, but used to be warm (sortof) with the sounds and smells and sights of family. But, I think it's going to be OK.

-AD

Hi AD

doing a drive by and wanted to check in on you.

I am glad you are ok though perhaps not as Ok as you would prefer.

But if you have found some peace with it all then I guess it's a good thing.

A big MB hug [[[[AD]]]]

Somehow I think XW is 'getting' it - 'consequences' - right about now. Though you'd probably have to use pinchers & hot needles to EVER get her to admit it at this time.

Pkew! Pkew! Driveby.

Hi AD. Hope yer good.

GC

Hi to GC and AW!

AW, I keep forgetting to remind my XW that she has no medical insurance now and probably should get some. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I think she's forgotten about that, and it's going to cost her.

She's planning to go see her family in Moscow in early December. That's OK with me. Our agreement allows a 14-day out-of town for each parent each year with DD. So, nothing I can say about it and really it's OK with me. But, it's going to empty her bank account to have to pay for this travel out of what I'm paying her.

Oh, and ... I guess you've noticed that I'm here, on-line. There is no Internet over there, so I'm not there, I'm here. Clear?

Well, I chickened out. When I drove over there, I decided to go for a walk, since that neighborhood is walkable - and where I live now is a bit more dangerous for walking. (Also, I'm rather desparate to lose some weight.) So, after my 90 minute walk, I fiddled around over there, (very slowely) cleaned up a room or two - and came home at 2:30 AM.

It was pretty much OK, but there were just a few little stabs... I didn't want to risk trying to sleep there. It is much better than before. It's been 4.5 months since I slept there. Maybe tomorrow.

The key is thought control. As long as I think of the future, I'm happy. But, the past is a downer.

I had a little stab when I saw DD's abandoned bath toys on the edge of the Jacuzzi. Poor little child, she had a nice place, with two parents, plenty of space and all her stuff in one house. And now...

I left all the upstairs windows open to air out the house and cool it off. It's probably in the mid-fifties here, but if feels warmer still.

-AD

Update:

My XW called to invite me to lunch - actually, she wanted to fix lunch here. I told her I already ate. So, I've agreed to eat dinner at her place this evening. I don't know what that means, but I was gonna eat something somewhere anyways.

I've signed up with eHarmony and Yahoo Personals. After searching unsuccessfully for a recent photo that I like, I tried to take some myself. I was laughing; it was so ridiculous. LOL. I set the timer, got in the photo, the shutter snapped - and no matter how many times I did it, I still didn't look good. LOL. When I smile I look goofy, and when I don't smile, I look angry. At my present weight, no matter what I do, I have jowls <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. And then there's the fact that I have rather small eyes - and when I smile or laugh they look even smaller - little squity slits. At least that's the way it looks to me. So, on eHarmony I have no photo yet, and on Yahoo, I have one that looks like my neck is broken - 'cause DD took it, and she aims low, so I have to duck to get my face in the picture. I've attempted to make contact with several ladies on Yahoo personals and, so far, they have ignored the broken-necked guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> At least I can laugh at myself. (Why not! Probably they have their girlfriends come look at my photo and laugh at it too).

Right now, I've got to unload my van (my house is getting full) and go back over to the other house and paint the deck.

Life is still good. The weather here is absolutely perfect. The sky is blue from ear to ear. I love October!

-AD

AD,
I can't believe how many of us worry to much about far too many things.

If you don't have a good photo by the time you get here, we'll do some for you. I bet we can do at least one good one.

Sorry about the bad memories at the house. The thing is to create good ones that mitigate the bad ones. They can't replace them really, but they can reduce the damage the old ones do in your mind.

Somewhere there is a girl that won't laugh at your photo, and will like you. Don't despair of finding her.

Weather is usually warm enough, but can change quickly. Bring at least one long sleeved shirt, and a light coat or jacket - not a windbreaker, but with some insulation. Wear clothes that you can get dirty in, cause you probably will get them dirty - and they will smell of campfire smoke before you are finished.
You may need more of a coat at night depending on where we end up, but I have a warmer one for that if need be. I doubt very much if there will be rain, don't worry about a rain coat. If on the odd chance it does rain, I have spares.

All you will really need will be your clothes, and camera gear. I'll take care of the rest.

I think you can plan on getting some really good photos -

SS

SS,

Some Grand Canyon photos (with me in them) would be ... well ... grand for this - but I'll still have squinty little eyes and jowls, LOL. (Unless I lose a bunch of weight). Thank you so much for all! Thanks for the packing tips. I'm not packing yet. I'm not leaving today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

UPDATE:

Well, I painted less than half of the deck. Because... when I got there, I noticed a puddle of water under the fridge (and there is hardwood in the kitchen, YIKES). But, it was OK, since there was no puddle yesterday - the floor seems undamaged, but the fridge seems dead - and I was just about to move it over here - since I've been using a little dorm-style fridge for the past 4 months. I hear it trying, but the compressor won't start. There is an odd chance that the compressor at least would be under warrantee. If it's the start capacitor, that would be relatively inexpensive. If it's the compressor (on a only-three-year-old fridge), I might as well junk it and buy a new one (after asking how much to fix it). <sigh>

Well, at least I saved the floor.

So, at 6 (I was expected at 6), I stopped painting and called my XW. She was a bit disapointed that I was not there yet, since she wanted to go for a walk after dinner (with me, and before dark). As it turned out, it was no problem.

She had cleaned her appartment essecially for my visit. She was perfectly civil and agreeable. She looked gooood (in jeans). It was nice to have one of her dinners again. She misses, she said, cooking for somebody. (Where is OM?)

After dinner, we did go for a walk - actually to the nearby grocery, where DD gets a free cookie. (As she gets older they get slower and slower to give it. I think she stops in there every day for a free cookie).

On the way there, DD ran some, so XW had to run to keep up, and finally, I had to abandon my dignity and run a 100 yards or so too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> After returning to a more proper walk, XW asked me to marry her. Don't get excited, it wasn't particularly dramatic. I replied "Under the right conditions, that would be nice." I bought a few items (light enough to carry), and we walked back under the full moon, on a slightly cool beautiful evening. On the way home, I asked "So, you want to marry me?". She looked surprised, as if she forgot what she said on the way there. "Everything would have to be different; a new start", she said. And we let it drop - except to continue a little dribble of conversation about the effects of divorce on children.

We stopped at the playground (at 8pm) and DD and XW and I went down the slide a few times. DD really enjoyed it - was giggling and hiccupping. She particulary enjoyed pushing me down the slide with her feet. XW asked if she could eat some of my cheese (in the bag, hanging on the fence of the playground). I said "sure", but she didn't.

We got back to my car, DD hugged me and I kissed her (edited to clarify that I kissed my little girl) and said "see you tomorrow" (while her Mama is in class) and went home.

Are we weird or what?

Meanwhile two of my eharmony ladies sent me some questions. (They haven't seen my photo).

One of them, I don't think I'm a good fit for. 1) She apparently has a very high need for everything to be orderly, and just looking around me right now is pretty frightening even for me. and 2) she has 3 kids, who are very involved with their Dad and live 150 miles from here.

The other one still has potential. No rush, just keep clicking the buttons, asking and answering questions.

-AD

5 DAY FORECAST
Sunday - Sunny 78°F (26°C) | 47°F (8°C)
Monday - Sunny 78°F (26°C) | 53°F (12°C)
Tuesday - Sunny 83°F (28°C) | 57°F (14°C)
Wednesday - Sunny 84°F (29°C) | 58°F (14°C)
Thursday - Sunny 84°F (29°C) | 59°F (15°C)

Now, see why I love October in Alabama!

-AD

Just how big would you have to be to still look, um, large...with the Grand Canyon as a backdrop? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Just finished reading the rest of your post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to have to send you one of the Japanese aunties' beautiful painted fans, so you can hide your blushing face behind it everytime you get a surprise proposal of marriage, then peak over the edge to bat your eyelashes furiously at your, ahem, suitor as you fan your heated cheeks with vigor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You might look kinda silly doing it, but don't let THAT stop you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. Joking aside, what do YOU think about it? Does it scare you, just a little bit? Out of the frying pan into the <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />...

I'm confoozed?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Did I miss a big chapter or something?!?!?

L.

Hi T&L,

No it doesn't scare me.

Did you notice I got a marriage proposal today, already. LOL

The fan thing I think is just not my style, but thanks.

Since I'll be in the foreground, the Grand Canyon will look small behind me. As long as it's not a photo of my, er, section between the belt and elbows, it should be OK.

You didn't say anything about our weather!
Oh, and it's relatively dry too.

-AD

What's confusing Orchid?

Confoozed with the facts:

1. End of Sept/beginning of Oct you posted that the judge signed the paperwork for the D?

2. U R posting for dates?

2. Now your Xw of being an XW less than 1 month asked you to marry her?

My head is still spinning and I also have been dealing with a headache all day long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

Why else would I have asked? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Betcha it'd confuse the HECK out of her though!! Besides, if you're going to lose weight, start it on your trip and make SS take you out on a lot of brisk trots between meals of raw carrots and dried oatmeal, and then go back all slimmed down and buffed up and do some dating and let your XW see that her marriage proposal is going to have to have a little hustle in it if a divorced woman like her wants to catch the eye of the popular and single, manly-figured Mr. Studly, to whom she used to be married, and thought herself above. Might as well have some fun with it, just so long as you 're not hurting anybody. I do think though that if you really have any inkling of trying a reconciliation, you need to start off on a very different foot with her, with very different ground rules, and a different you, too---more Action Man, less Gumby, giving in for the sake of peace no matter what contorted position you were left in when the incident was over. She strikes me as a woman who would appreciate a certain strength in a man. Think Oak, not dandelion fluff.

t&l

Hey Orchid, remember that I'm used to her. It don't mean nothin'.

... and sorry about the headache.

-AD

Too true, T&L, too true!

I know she always said she wanted "leadership", but she never followed anyway, so it's a mystery to me what she meant by it.

I think I just have to do my own thing for awhile.

-AD

I see the divorce has some effect...but not alot on her. Sure, she's trying to extend an olive leaf with the dinner cooking...

And you're kinda spinning too...I mean just signed and within days you're off to web sites.

This is why I get scared on match and others...

I just think you need some time to heal and sort out the stuff...not alot of time, but some time.

Divorceis still an adjustment...even ifyou've been separatedf for a while.

Just make me understand what is happening here? I love ya AD...Ithink maybe you're trying to turn the tables on your xw. It could happen. It could. My dog could sprout wings and fly if he thought and concentrated hard enough...or just take a poo.

Your ww is still in the affair? Is it still active?

If so, this could be a great time to go into plan B...post D!

Fill some EN's. Be attractive...alluring. Do the dried oatmeal workout thing. Appear foggy to her right back! And it wouldn't hurt if you maybe had lying around something about dating or being single...so she'd know she had her work cut out for her.

You could be al about plan A...and during one of those walks when she says "well we could always remarry"...you could say"I wouldn't want to go back to that. I want a marriage with a woman to be special. Incredible. Full of life, and love. No third parties allowed hon. Even if it was you I chose. If you know that woman, or a woman like that, let me meet her. IF you don't, then just trust I will find her myself somewhere out there cause I am not wasting one more minute of life." You could even change your routine and shake her up more...but in reality, you doing something different, going somewhere different is just about recovery for you period. Either way I see it, it helps the sitch.

I think if you play this right, she could become a completely broken woman. But you gotta do it right. And accept if she is unable to become that, then you made all these right changes for the right reasons...for you, and the kids..and foryou to begin your tomorrows knowing that somebody else better for you is out there.

Hi Peachy!

Well, I don't make much of what my XW says. I don't think she's a bad person, she's just stumbling in the dark and doesn't know where she is, who she is, or what she wants.

I'm not trying to put on a performance to influence my XW. I'm just going to be myself and do what I need to do for myself. If that influences her, then fine, and if it doesn't, that's fine too.

I don't know what she's doing with OM - if anything. I have seen no sign of him other than the fact that he gave her a computer a few months ago. She said she missed cooking for somebody, and if she is sincere in saying that, then he hasn't been around. Usually her apartment is a serious mess, but yesterday (was it yesterday), she had cleaned it. I don't think she would have him over if her place was a mess. So, I figure she's doing somethign with him when DD is with me, or if her appt. is clean, after DD goes to bed. But, I don't see (and am not looking for) any signs of that.

I canceled my Yahoo Personals account today (free trial 7-day ending), but I'm still on eHarmony. I don't see any harm in it. I have some gripes about eHarmony but I think they're trying to do something right. I may cancel that also in a couple of days, but they have connected me with a few interesting ladies. I think the big problem is going to be kids - as most of these matches are 2 hours drive from here. I don't want to relocate because it would mess up my visitation with my daughter - and many ladies are in the same situation. Eventually, I might get more matches locally.

There is no deadline, but I do have a sense of urgency. I'm 47, and my goal is to have a family. The odds are against me, and I know that you yourself, would go "ick!" if some guy 10-12 years older came after you, LOL, so...

I have to focus on what's important, and elliminate everthing else. If I'm able to do it, hallaleuia!, and if after, say 18 months or 2 years, I'm not well down that path, then I may reconsider and go for companionship instead of family - which also would be wonderful. In that case, the age requirements would be relaxed and I'm sure I could find somebody.

Meanwhile, I'm alive and trying to make the best of it!

-AD

Orchid and Peachy,

I get the feeling that you think it unwise for me to go looking for another wife right now.

But consider first that my marriage was pretty much aweful all the way through - from the first month til the last - and that OM was in the picture from one month after our wedding (lots of phone calls) until now.

So, I've done most of the grieving long ago. "What might have been" was actually impossible under the circumstances.

I'm feeling good. I'm not foggy at all, and I don't want to appear so.

I have a clear-eyed goal. It's not an easy goal, but it is acheivable. I'm not looking for "dates" - but rather for a serious relationship which can lead to marriage. The moment I realize that it's not heading there, I'll end it. Now, there are some ladies out there who have the same goal - to have a family. Some of them are, say, 36 - and they are feeling that it's getting to be now or never. They too are serious. We'll meet. Parts of it might be too business-like for your taste, but I'm the kind of guy who'll create the romance downstream rather than upstream. I'm the least "player-like" person imaginable, but I'm very loyal and commitment is my middle name.

If I find a woman who shares my goals, then I will make it my purpose in life to make her happy, to become the man she needs - and I'll do it wholeheartedly without looking back.

You only live once (on this earth). I might as well fling myself into the life I really want, without restraint. (If that don't scare the ladies off, I'll send 'em my picture, LOL)

-AD

Well, my XW continues to pursue reconcilliation - while I've found a nice lady to at least exchange emails with. Most likely, it won't go far, but it's pleasant and it's on the path to where I want to go.

-AD

AD,

U & I are 'classmates' agewise, right?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Ok classmate or 'cuz, I want you t/b happy. What I don't want is for you to go into any R w/o being emotionally ready. I am sure your needs are in the negative and dying t/b met. Granted but I also know u iz 1 smart guy and know better than to jump from the fryin' pan into da' fire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, no recon....... there needs to be proof you accept beyond a shadow of a doubt and non of this BS needs to appease the xWS stuff. Nope, AD is waaay to bright to fall for that kind of babble.

That's my 2 cents.... it's on the house (hale - hawaiian style - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

Aloha,
L.

Don't listen to the xw.

If you've been separated for a while prior to divorce, are not actively grieving...then you can imho if you feel like it...date.

But don't crush another woman's hopes if WxW suddenly falls to her knees weeping over your loss and cannot spend another day not by your side.

I would not do that to a nice woman, who has done nothing to you, just wants an honest relationship.

I guess when the door to prior R is shut, then it's ok to move ahead. But if the old R or M is emotionally still a part of your life...then I would spend time focusing on me, doing the dried oatmeal thing and gym thing...and above all be a good dad to my kids until time I feel emotionally right and then full speed ahead. That's what I did...well except for dried oatmael part.

Hi Ladies!

Orchid,

I'm not sure what you're saying, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, I'm pretty much in agreement with you.

Peach,

I don't really hold out anything more than the 1% chance that I would go back to my XW. And, I'm a very honest man. I told the lady that I'm communicating with, that my XW is trying to get me back - and I'll keep her (eHarmony gal) updated if anything changes there. I agree with you completely. I don't want to hurt anybody - and I'm not playing games with anybody.

.... more about my XW and etc. ...

I've told my XW that her words simply have no power anymore - because she has made empty promises, lied etc. too many times. So, she's going to have to show me something by her actions - and that would take time - and both she and I realize that since we are not spending time together, there is no way for her to show me anything. Meanwhile, I'm not waiting for her. If she gets her act together and figures out a way to show me something, and meanwhile nothing serious develops elsewhere, I might reconsider.

She says "you don't know if you can trust some new woman", to which I reply - "but at least there a chance that she's trustworthy. You have proven that you are not."

I asked her "why would you want me? You hate me, as you have told me at least once a week for the last serveral years". She replied "I won't say that anymore." I said, "well, OK, that's nice. In case you didn't catch it, you just made a promise. I'll be watching to see if you keep it."

And, I should note, that I'm sure she has said "I hate you" (to me) within the last 7 days. I mostly just ignore that kind of thing, but I'm sure I've heard it recently - probably when I wouldn't agree to some unfavorable change to the visitation schedule.

So, enough about my XW.

Gotta go wash DD's hair....

-AD

just a drive by AD to see if you are ok?

lets see SUNDAY>>>ANY MORE PROPOSALS? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well AD I guess its a case of the consequences coming home to your XW.
Its just that she has started to accept them way to late for you right now.

You are in the drivers seat AD. Find out what makes you happy now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

all the best

So how'd the hair washing go? Wasn't there a song about that in "South Pacific"? Wouldn't it be nice if we really could? What kind of shampoo would that take? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Caustic, I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Hi AD,

Just checking in. Sheesh, you've been free for 3 weeks or so and the women are already lining up! How does it feel?

About the age thing...I don't think you would have a problem finding a W 10 years younger or so. My dad was 10 years older than my mother. They were married 37 years when he died. And my uncle, who is 68, is married to a woman who is 37!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I think they've been married for about 4 years now. They don't have children, though - I don't think that either of them want them at this point - but they could if they wanted!

Personally, I wouldn't rule out a 47-year-old. (but I would a 68 year-old!)

~svb

SVB,

I know there seems like no hope with your STBXH - but if he came around and said he made a mistake and wanted you back - and would do whatever it took to accomplish that, how would respond?

-AD

T&L,

The hair-washing went normally, of course. It's a daily routine.

-AD

AW,

Yeah, I guess reality is settling in. No proposals today, but I think she (XW) might have repeated it sometime this week. I don't pay much attention.

-AD

Hi AD. You devil.

Your XW is mentally ill. I hope you can detach enough to let her deal with it on her own. How's yer dawter?

GC

UPDATE:

I had an "incident" this morning, with XW. I think I handled it well.

I had an invitation to Sunday dinner - with some friends of ours - an older couple, very active, wealthy, generous - people who helped my XW tremendously at a critical time before we met. (when she was in the hospital, and they paid for her surgery.) She was hurt that she was not invited, and tried very hard to push her way in - and also tried to take DD after church today.

I took care of it. I didn't let her interfere with my day with DD. She was crying before she left, but that's not my problem anymore.

-AD

Hi GC,

I'm no devil! I just signed up for eHarmony (And why not? I'm a single man!). So, I'm corresponding with one nice lady. That's all. Maybe it will go somewhere, maybe not. Considering the normal course of life, one has to assume that it won't go far, but it's pleasant anyway - and far too early to tell. She's quite some distance away and it would be at least 2nd weekend in November before I could even think of paying a visit for an actual date kind of thing.

Yes, of course, my XW has problems, but I think I'm on track. I got sucked into a 2-hour phone call the other night, after I told her I was on eHarmony. That was a mistake I won't repeat, and really not so horrible a mistake after all.

Daughter's fine. We had a good weekend togther, and I have her next weekend too - since we swiched around some. I'll also have her for T-giving this year and more after Christmas. I look forward to my time with her.

-AD

That's two hours you won't get back.

Okay that sounded a little cold. Not the idea. I just wholeheartedly believe in the "serenity to accept the things I cannot change" part.

GC

I know there seems like no hope with your STBXH - but if he came around and said he made a mistake and wanted you back - and would do whatever it took to accomplish that, how would respond?

AD, are you absolutely sure that you wouldn't take your ex back? It sounds to me as if you might be considering it a little.

To be totally honest, I think that there is less than no hope with my STBXH. I can't imagine that he would say anything like that to me. Even if he has any doubts at all, I think he's too proud to ever admit that he's made a mistake.

In the past, IF he ever would have said something like that to me, I probably would have requested the following:

1. That he give me the FULL truth about his past behaviors and thoughts.
2. That he continue to see an IC for all of his issues - the emotional abuse, etc. (I like what you said about your ex-w - that she is confused about who she is and what she wants - I see my STBXH the same way. Maybe a good IC can help him/them)
3. That he promise to go to MC with me.

But I know now that he will never do those things. I honestly don't think that he will ever change.

I've been living alone for almost 5 months now. I think my own fog is clearing and I am starting to realize that life can be good without STBXH. I almost feel as if I can breathe again. I don't know if I ever want to go back to the way I was living before with him -- with his control, his secrets, his lies, his anger, his looks of complete hate and disgust, his lack of respect, his sense of entitlement, MY walking on eggshells, MY anxiety, my loss of self.

Now, if he truly wanted to reconcile, he would really have to prove it to me ... from afar. If we got back together right away, nothing would change. I can't trust my STBXH, either. In the meantime, I'm going to live my own life. I would tell him all of this. I think it's pretty much what you've already told your ex, too, isn't it? Actually, I might even give him an outright, "no thanks." Before I moved, my IC told me that, after what I've been thru with STBXH, that I might eventually enjoy living on my own too much - that I might decide that I don't want him anymore. I think she might be right.

But, like I said before, it ain't gonna happen. He'll never tell me that he wants me back. (Then again, he DID leave me a voicemail on Friday saying that he needs to ask me a question. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> We've been playing phone tag since then. What could it be?)

What else is your ex-w telling you?

Probably he's asking some kind of Q about income taxes or something like that.

What is my ex-w telling me? That she'll give me another child (which she only says because she knows I want one), that she misses me (which I don't believe)...

Mostly she just missed DD when DD's with me - and says she wants to give DD an intact family (as if it were my fault that she doesn't have one). I don't think it has anything to do with me.

Sunday we had an "incident". It was a bit ugly since I found myself in a church parking lot - following my xw, who was carrying DD away (on my weekend), saying "If you're going to act like this, I'll never bring DD here again" (to that particular church - their church). I didn't like to be in that situation - and I'm sure some people were walking to their cars and overheard - probably thought I was a heathen (instead of just a Baptist).

XW met DD after her "children's church" and started carrying her away. I told her I had been invited to lunch and DD would go with me. She said she would follow me to our friends house (to which she was unsure of the directions). So, I just drove home - and she followed. When we got here, I stopped and got out. She looked distressed and confused. I told her that if she showed up at lunch there (at the home of one of the most prominent couples in my church, with the new music minister and familly also invited), I would tell the assembled company over lunch exactly why we are divorced. She was sitting in her car, hugging DD tightly - and with tears running down her face. I think the only reason she left DD with me is fear that I would make some complaint to the court about her interfering with my visitation. So, I arrived at lunch about 10 minutes late - not a problem.

Yeah, I know, you didn't ask about that - but maybe it answers your question anyway.

SVB, I'm glad you are starting to get your head clear and realize that not only is life good - it is much better than life with your XH.

Would I take her back? Yes and no.

The eHarmony lady has dismissed me - after coming to the conclusion that I am too recently divorced and (she said) still have feelings for my X. Maybe she's right. Certainly I can say that I still care about my XW - but not enough to keep me from sending her away in tears when she tries to get in the way of my visitation. I'm toughening up in that respect. I don't want to hurt her, but this is the deal we struck - and this is the deal the judge signed. I'm not going to budge from my time with my daughter.

She didn't drop DD off today on the way to class (if she went to class). I tried to call once, but she didn't answer. Next week, I'll ask her if she needs me to keep DD on Monday night to let me know in advance, since I'll not be sitting around waiting for her. I miss DD more today because she was here for 4 nights in a row. I'd love to have DD here, but I don't like being stood up. I rushed home (left work early) to be here at 5.

I would take her back if she became a faithful and honest woman - but I would have no way of knowing that she had become that. So, unless by some miracle she became such a person and figured out a way to prove it to me, the answer would be "no".

And just in case you wondered, I did notice your comment to the effect that you would not rule out a 47-year-old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

... but this is a marriage building site, and you're still married, so I'll not say anything more about that... for the time being. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Hi AD,
Good to see you thinking about things.

I think your logic is correct. You can only continue on with life, and see where things go.

SS

Hi AD,

Just some thoughts....

I find it ironic that your XW would tell you that she would give you another child, but yet doesn't want you to spend time w/ the child that you have. Talk about a definite difference between words and actions. Hmmmmm It seems to me that it is still really all about her, and not you. OK, this is just an outsider's observation. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sorry that it didn't work out with Ms. eHarmony. But at least maybe it gives you a little more time to heal after your D, even though I know that you are kind of in a hurry. You know we worry about you.

And finally,

And just in case you wondered, I did notice your comment to the effect that you would not rule out a 47-year-old.

... but this is a marriage building site, and you're still married, so I'll not say anything more about that... for the time being.

Hey! What ever happened to that comment you made about not fishing for MB post-D mermaids? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi SVB!

Nice to see you here. I read your "report" on your weekend with your STBXH - and I'm really glad that it was relatively painless. You balancing the checkbook reminds me that my XW told me she was going to visit her parents in Moscow (her brother lives there and her folks will be there) in December. She was afraid that I would object. Instead I went and searched for flights for her - because she has never done that - found a good deal with a reasonable schedule - and sent the itenerary to her. I did it just because I enjoy shopping for tickets. (And I think you enjoy balancing checkbooks.) She was grateful, but I don't think she has bought the tickets, and when she next goes to look - they will probably be hundreds of $$$ more - but it will be a lesson to her, I suppose. I won't schedule her trips again.

In defense of my XW (I know I shouldn't defend her, but she's not here), it's not that she doesn't want me to have time with my daughter, but rather that she doesn't want to be separated from her. She gets intensely lonely when DD is not there. But, that's just too bad, and there's nothing we can do about it.

It's sweet of you to worry about me. Really, I'm OK. I'm surprised at how OK I am.

I had a chess game tonight with a friend, and I really enjoyed it - scheduled another in 3 weeks.

Not fishing, no. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Well, today, for the first time I heard XW say that she regrets, "not only the D, but the choices [ she ] made which led to it".

That's a tiny budge in the right direction.

What I have found is that when I am firm with her, she yeilds. I never knew that while were married, because I didn't feel like I had the right to be firm with her in that way.

What led to this discussion was that DD's little choir was going to sing at the Wednesday evening service at their church. So, I called XW this morning - not long before lunch - to confirm that they were going to be there - and that the choir was, indeed, going to sing.

She replied by saying that she was very hurt by the way I treated her Sunday - sending her away in tears in DD's presence. I reiterated that if she was hurt, she had hurt herself, and comforting her was no longer my job. She hung up on me. No problem, I was done talking anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Then, she called back (familiar pattern) to give me a piece of her mind. yada yada yada...

Finally I gave her a metaphor. She hates my metaphors, but apparently this one got through. I told her "If you put your foot under the wheel, it's going to get crushed, and it's not the wheel's fault. If you interfere with my visitation with DD, you are going to get hurt." She jawed at me for awhile longer - saying that she wasn't going to give me my weekend with DD this weekend (which I traded for) - since it wasn't supposed to be my weekend. I reminded her that she had agreed to exchange weekends so that I could do my Grand Canyon trip (visit with the very fine, generous and hospitable S.S) - and if she did not follow through on that, it would just another instance of her not keeping her comittments. She continued to jaw at me until my lunch-buddy stuck his head in the door, and I told her I had to go.

So, at lunch the cell rang 3 times. I just silenced it without answering.

After lunch, I called her back to say that I heard her calls, but was at lunch and didn't want to get into it on the phone with her while I was with my buddy.

And, get this, SHE APPOLOGIZED, rather nicely I thought. She said that she thought about it and realized that if I felt as strongly about spending time with DD as she did, she understood that I would be defending my time with her pretty firmly. That's when she got around to saying that she regretted the actions that she took which led to the D. She said that, although she will miss DD terribly, I will have her this weekend as agreed.

It's a tiny, baby step. I'm not waiting for her, but I can't say that I'm not pleased to see that anyway.

At the church service, I sat near her, but not too near. DD, in the "cherub choir" barely moved her lips and held her hands over her ears when the other kids where shouting "AMEN". Ah, kids. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She'll get there.

DD was in a good mood, very sweet and affectionate to me - leading me out by the finger afterwards and whispering a dinner invitation in my ear. I told her "no, I already ate, and I have to go" - and off I went. <sigh>

But, I was headed to my church for choir practice, which was GREAT!

BTW, I've never been one for attending Wednesday evening services, but there is something nice about stopping at a church on the way home from work for an hour of singing and a little talk. I kinda liked it.

-AD

I keep wondering what will happen.
I think you have finally gotten to the place where you aren't holding your breath waiting for her.

It looks like that is a good thing.

I notice that you are good at putting your thoughts into writing. You get better as you go along too.

I keep praying for you - and her too. All of you. You are a lot like Graycloud in one way - better than you give yourself credit for much of the time. Celebrate your strengths, and work on your weaknesses. Dont' be limited by your faults.

SS

S.S.,

So, I'm like a big Greyhound?!

Oh, sorry, a bit like Greycloud.

Perhaps in one way I am, but not in another.

On a scale of 1 to 100, my bitterness factor is somewhere around a 2.

GC is still burdened by all the bad stuff his XW did to him. He refuses to speak to her - and by doing that, gives her a kind of power over him. The goal should be to allow all the grief to pass, the anger to dissipate - and come to the point where the XW is just another person - who engenders no strong feelings of any kind.

I think I'm a lot further down that path that GC is, and probably that is because I had a very different marriage than he did. He apparently had a close and loving relationship with his XW and was blindsided by her betrayal (not only of him, but of the young mother and chilren who were her OM's family) - while I, on the other hand, had a very tense and frequently antagonistic marriage all the way through - where divorce was mentioned and discussed quite frequently - and in which I was aware of OM's presence from the first month of my marriage til the last. I think it is much easier to move forward in my case. I still glance back to see if that person who was once my wife is changing in any interesting way - and I have to talk to my XW (which GC does not) since we have a child together, and for the sake of my child, I have to show some respect to my daughter's mom.

My XW treats me better now, than when she was married to me.

So, I'm glad that I have the easier time now (though I'm sorry for GS's sufferrings). I'm sure GC would not want to have experience the first 6 months of my marriage. I paid early, so now, I've paid up my debt of pain and can go forward relatively pain-free.

-AD

You also understand some of the reasons she is the way she is and that helps.

She IS changing, but so are you.

You have more confidence now - and it looks good on you.

SS

Update:

I'm feeling a bit dizzy - and I hope it just means that I'm coming down with something.

My XW is now saying almost all the things I wanted to hear her say - and my resolve is drifting a bit. I brought her some sushi when I went by to pick up my daughter this evening. I used to bring her sushi sometimes. It doesn't smell as nice as flowers, but you can eat it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll write more about it later,
... if anybody asks.

-AD

AD,

Ever consider your wife just might be cake eating to ease her transition into being single. Sorry if I’m a bit jaded, but I figure the best indication of future behavior is past behavior. What tangible actions could she take that would ever warrant taking another stab at marrying a woman that, by your admission, has had OM around since day one and generally contributed to a lousy marriage?

I hope the above isn’t too “over the top” cynical, but I’m in a rather caustic mood regarding my STBX.

AD


well come on, tell!

you know I of all people am a reconciliation nut ...BUT make sure you take things SLOW dear friend.

Testing waters with a thermometer instead of your toe will allow you to walk without pain!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Binder,

Welcome to my thread! I don't think I've seen you on here before (or it's been awhile).

Hello AW, welcome back.

...... waht waht what. That's it, "what" am I thinking?!

I'm pretty sure I can't reconstruct all the discussions (mostly her monologue, because I've been pretty unresponsive)...

There are several things that she has said
1) She has not told OM that she is divorced. I believe this, because it fits her MO. As soon as she tells him that, he's going to start pressuring her. She expects that within two days he'll show up with a ring, and knowing her nature, she'll feel guilty for putting him to the expense and etc. etc. Not telling him gives her control of the situation. She can tell him when she wants to. But, of course, she could be telling me something she thinks I want to hear too. That's not impossible.
2) She talked about being able, years down the road, to tell the story - and have it be a good and inspiring story for our daughter - a story about doing the right thing.
3) She remembers some things that I used to do for her, and says that she can't imagine anybody else doing.
4) She came to me with her problem - relationship with her girlfriend (former neighbor). She says I'm the only one she feels safe discussing her problems with.
5) Again, she says that she regrets doing the things she has done - and it seems like a movie - something somebody else did, but admits that she did. (Now there was in her monologue one attempt at providing an alternative story for one particular visit with OM, and I'm not buying it entirely although it is possible. This is a minus.)
6) She says that she knows that she has much to comfess to me.

I'm tired of numbers. She says that she knows she wasn't a good wife, but believes that she can be. Again (not for the first time), she says that we could not to go back to the old marriage, to the way things were - that it would have to be completeley different and new. She also says (aren't you tired of that phrase) that I have to be firmer with her - and if she is doing something that is bad for the family, I have a right to stop her. (In practice, this is a very difficult undertaking).

She admits that she didn't realize what divorce would be like - and that the separations from DD are the hardest parts for her. (So, we know that it is not so much me that she wants, but that she wants to avoid being separated from our child.)

The important thing is that I never told her what I wanted to hear from her. She said all these things without any prompting.

At this point, I think the odds of me getting back together with her have risen from 1% to ???? - maybe 15% ??? I've got to wait and see - and not tip my hand either.

It would be interesting to remarry on our anniverary - which is December 19th - only question "this year or next?". This year, would save on my taxes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Sorry, frugality bites. Doesn't it?

But how can I get any confidence by then?

I'm nuts. I admit it. But, still, life is good - either way.

Thanks for reading my accounts from the nuthouse.

Oh, and just to add a touch of something different, there is a policeman hiding in my yard watching my neighbors tonight. He rang my doorbell to ask if it is OK (identified himself and showed his badge).

-AD

Oh well...

XW was here - halfway tried to seduce me, well, more than halfway. She would have succeeded if she had wanted to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> All this does is confuse me. Probably it was a combination of test and manipulation. A test, to see if she could get to me. (She can.) A manipulation, to try to push things in a direction she wants. (If it was that, I don't think it worked.) I can only guess what was in her mind. Did anything change? I don't think this made recociliation more likely, but it sure messed with my head - and interferred with me looking forward to the future.

<sigh> I've got to be tougher and smarter than this.

-AD

AD,

I'm concerned Binder might be right.

It's nice that she hasn't told OM about the divorce. It would be even nicer if she sent him an NC letter.

Ahhhh... so Ms. eHarmony was right.

Here's what I think (tho I seem to be wrong an awful lot). But I'll tell you anyway...

I can't blame you for wanting to believe your XW. You care for her, you have a history together, you have a DD with her. I wish there was a way you could look into her mind and heart and know if she really means everything she says. It sure does sound good.

What runs through my mind, though, is what everyone goes through in plan B. How many WS say all of the right things to come home? How many of them mean it long term? I let my STBX home when he told me that he thought that our M was worth working on. He came home and he just thumbed through the MB concepts that I printed out for him. He said that he already knew all that stuff - it was common sense - and then continued in his old ways. It was convenient for him to be with me - especially financially. I think as soon as he came home he started planning his month-long trip to visit his family (without me, of course). I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to swing a trip like that if he were on his own. I look back on it now and I feel used and stupid. In my mind I picture him saying, "SUCKER! You fell for it!" My H didn't come home for me.

I don't want to see you get used. You deserve more than that.

What if you took her back? What if you got remarried THIS Dec. 19? Would she go back to her old ways, and if so, how long would it take? How long would it take for her to forget what it was like to be D'd? Can you imagine having to go through a D again?

If you are really interested in reconciling w/her, which I could understand, I would take things slowly. I wouldn't rush into getting back together. I'd let her prove to you from afar that she is serious. Maybe you can start to date her and you can see how she behaves over time. Will she meet your needs and avoid LBs over time?

Would she send a NC letter?

Words.....lovely, scary, wonderful, manipulating words..... followed up by what? Seduction?

What r u 2 her? An OM? Now where is her loyalty to anyone?

Sorry 2/b harsh here. Don't want to see you hurt more.

If there is any truth or chance, it needs t/b tested. U have been burned before and your need t/b cautious is great.

So what t/d?

1. U have already heard her out.
2. Somehow, someone needs to let the OM know her status. Let him pressure her into whatever..... that w/b her problem and better to get that out and over with. We all know an A exposed lacks the spark of the chase. No fun when you can see your object clearly. A WS with a big I'm divorced sign on their rump is just not appealing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

3. As of yet, she hasn't proved anything other than she can talk big and c/b seductive. The OM already knew that. U did also. So what else is new? That's what you need to tell her.

Ok, I will stop for now. You have been through a lot and what is ahead requires you keep your clear mind and calm heart.

take care, bro'.

L.

SVB got it right, and Orchid expanded on it. Listen to these gals - and memorize what they are saying.

Quote from SVB
Will she meet your needs and avoid LBs over time?

Even good actors (um - or actresses) can't maintain it all the time.

It may be hard to know if she is acting, and lets down, or just is tired, and has a relapse. If she is for real, time will tell. Like maybe a year, or two.

Can YOU go that long? Can you take that king of time with your clock ticking away? Do you even want to?

It is still for you to look at this from afar (the big picture) and make some decisions. If she is acting, then she probably knows she needs to do it really quickly. If so, she will push it, and make demands if you don't respond soon.

It is up to you to decide what you want to do, and tell her straight out. Of course, you don't mention that you are waiting to see if she is acting, but (for instance) you tell her that you have been hurt, and that you need time to recover before considering re-marriage. If she is willing to wait, and date, you will consider it, but if she tries to set conditions you don't care to work with her on it.

Consider this carefully. Remember what was said above about if the first time was bad, the second time would be that much worse.

Knowing the whole 7 years were laced with verbal and emotional abuse from her (and an A is the worst kind.) I would have a hard time even considering being with her again.

You tell us what is going on, but not much about your thought processes, or your plan.

What are you thinking? Where would you like this to go?
How do you plan to protect yourself?

SS

Shameless thread jack -

Hi Orchid !!!
SS Waves and smiles.

Now back to your regulary scheduled discussion.

Hi SS.....howzit going? U gotta do an update thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, now waiting for a response from AD.

Hi,

I'm home, tired, but appreciate of each of you taking the time to think about me and my situation. I'm thinking, but right now, I'm going to go log in to eHarmony and reply to some ladies there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Then, I'm going to sleep.

I'll be back.

-AD

AD -

Be careful not to oversleep and miss work!!

Hope you find some 24K eHarmony ladies.

Georgia

AD??

AD, if your XW ever comes along and shows evidence that some kind of selflessness (toward your child doesn't count) has been conceived in her soul, then maybe then it would make some sense to listen to her.

If that ever happens for true, you will no doubt feel the thud. Don't hold your breath.

She seems to lack a certain depth. What am I saying? All XWW do.

GC

Hi folks!

Thanks to all who have stopped by to look for me.

I've been staying off the boards for a few days.

I had a great time with SS and his family. What a rare and wonderful thing to find such generosity and hospitality! To SS, Mrs. SS, the twins, the other two girls and their husbands, I again say THANKS.

While I was looking up at the stars near the rim of the canyons, I was remembering not only what a wonder the natural world is, but also that I would not have been there without the connections generated on the Internet (which is itself not considered part of the natural world).

IMPORTANT NOTE TO ALL WHO HAVE FOLLOWED MY STORY.

Before I left for my trip, I told my XW about this forum and she has been reading here. Much of it she found painful to read, but she has been reading the concepts and the books too.

If any of you feel that anything you said about her was ungenerous, you have a chance to make appologies (if it seems appropriate). Otherwise, I ask you to be fair and considerate to her - in anything that you write.

-AD

Hi Georgia,

I've been thinking about you (and reading your thread). I hope everything goes smoothly for you next week.

Hi SVB1,

Yes, I'm alive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Greycloud,

I'm listening to what my XW has to say - and, for my child's sake, and not only for that, but for all of our sakes, I'm more than willing to consider the possibility that we might all be together again sometime in the future. I'm taking it slowly though.

-AD

AD, for myself, I might have been ungenerous, but anything I write about someone I assume they may read.

Nobody around here wants your ex to suffer, but we wish she wouldn't hurt you, and if she does suffer because of that, maybe that makes her lucky.

I think living an examined life is good. I recommend it for anyone.

GC

Oh, and another thing. It's true; SS is an excellent man. I met him once too, and no doubt will see him again sometime.

GC

Hi AD, welcome back.

Hi AD, I'm glad you're back.

I'm sure that I have been ungenerous and I apologize. We base our judgements sometimes on what we've been through with our WS, but we really don't know your ex like you do. Like GC said, we just don't want to see you get hurt. You can consider us your pitbull guard dogs (grrrrr), but if you tell us to back off, we will. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm positive that there is good in your ex, otherwise you wouldn't have married her in the first place.

I pray that your ex reads all of the MB concepts, takes them to heart, and goes through the profound changes that many of us have done. If she does, then you all will be set. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And, yes, please take everything slowly.

svb

I'd like 2 say "hi" and "welcome!" 2... ...xMrsAD? Don't really no how 2 address you.

I hope you'll sign in and post sometime! We'd love 2 hear from you. There are a great bunch of folk units here with a lot of valuable perspectives on these things.

best,
-ol' 2long

Hello 2!

It's great to see you!

I've got to run now... have to be at DD's birthday party with a gift that I don't have yet ... in about an hour. And, I'm still in my PJ's.

-AD

AD,

Very glad you're back and it really sounded like a great trip!
If your ex is reading here, well that is fantastic...I don't think that I've ever said anything negative, but if so and I was off-base, well I certainly apologize!!! (Wish my H would read here AND get it).

I always got the feeling that your XWW cared about you deeply AD. Maybe you were too nice, sometimes and then when you turned that around,she didn't know how to respond.

I always believe that where kids are involved, it is good to take the best road for them when possible. That does NOT mean that either parent should be miserable. I don't believe that is good for kids either!

Keep in touch,
jls

PS..Missed you, esp late-night-can't-sleep time. Oh and <waves hi to svb and everyone else>

Hi AD! I wrote to you on Gray's thread for some retarded reason, I should have wrote here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

XMrs. AD,

I have so much to say to you about AD. He is someone whom I admire a great deal...he is an incredible man. I admire the way he always came to your defense, the way he chose his own path regardless of the 2x4's and disdain often thrown at him (from me too), and I admire the advice he gave to me, many times, ...and above all his deeply ingrained kindness.

You are very fortunate to have him as a father for your daughter, and as your friend. Please be tender and gracious for this, if for nothing else.

I think you are going to make a hellofa woman, when you finally come out of the fog for good...and AD has done nothing but praise the love you have for your little girl.

I'm rooting for you xMrs AD, as I am for AD. And if I was less than generous of you in my comments to AD, it was out of concern, and I apologize for the judgments which were not mine to make.

Rock on AD!!!!

been just reading your posts AD...and so glad all is good.

to xMrs. AD,
Glad you're here...Ad is a wonderful guy...it has been such a pleasure to get to know him...he is a MB champ! Give the guy a chance and give yourself also a chance to work the MB program. My prayers are with you both. He is determined, astute, and kind. Just go for it girl!
He's a one in a million...

Well, I can't claim to be like Graycloud -- I don't assume the other spouse will see it, and I know I can be a bit harsh because of that.

If so, AD's XW, I apologize. We are cheering for you, as we have always cheered for AD.

Welcome to the board.

Here are some links to old threads, in case my XW wants to read them.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2682800


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2709648

Welcome to AD's XW.

I think that for WSs to expect to find this board regularly overflowing with sympathy for them, is kinda like men expecting a lot of "poor baby's" from the women attending their wives in labor. In other words, not too likely. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> People tend to find any unflattering, or even uncomplimentary, analysis of themselves to be "ungenerous," or even critical. Accuracy is not always flattering. It certainly hasn't been for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Having said that, let me also say that, in my opinion, some of the 2x4s on this board are wielded with more vigor than skill, and often land awry. So whether people were genuinely "ungenerous" or not, your XW is likely to find reading this uncomfortable, at the least.

Read anyway, my dear. If you can extract, from what has been said here, the information you need to understand yourself better, and the tools to avoid in the future the mistakes you've made in the past, then the experience of being on this board, even if it hurts, will have been an invaluable one for you. And the same people who, with their verbal hobnailed boots, tap-danced their way across my daughter's WS during his affair, leaving little cleat marks up and down his quivering flesh, are the very same ones who, when he made a turnaround and committed himself to restoring his marriage and his family, encouraged and supported him enthusiastically, and cheered him on to do even better.

Good luck to you both. Watch out for the CAUTION--PROCEED WITH CARE signs, though.

t&l

Dear Mrs AD,

It has been a long and hard journey for AD and his family. Glad you are reading his thoughts and our input. It is hard to read, that u c/b sure. It is enlightening as well. But for the light to come, it has be accompanied with a good attitude. Hard for many of us t/d as you will see with our thoughts posted here but in time, we all learn.

If I may, I would like to reocommend that you and AD give a call to Jennifer C @ MB and do some phone cousneling. Their assistance is worth their weight in gold (just hope they don't reaise their prices to match - LOL!!). Let AD know, he will know how to arrange it. U 2 c/b together or to portions of the call separately. That's how our 1st session went. It was done from the comfort of our home.

Keep reading and learning. Is it possible to recover? Yes. The rest is up to you.

take care,
L.

MB is a great place to obtain marriage building information and some of its infidelity forums may have one or two bitter BS that can get carried away and use the WS as an emotional punching bag. But you'd be doing yourself a great disservice if you let these folks get the best of you and let them run you out of Dodge for the VAST majority of BS here are caring and compassionate people to BOTH BS and WS. There are other sites that have forums as well.

AD,

Ahem. If I may give you a bit of advice...

I know you always wanted your marriage to work, first and foremost. Now you are divorced.

Give XW a chance to work her way back. She's got a lot of homework to do. You've bumped have a dozen posts for her -- but so far she hasn't introduced herself yet.

Let her do the work. It's the wrong thing if you do it for her.

Step back, take a deep breath, and keep your options open. Otherwise it will be a bumpy ride.

GC,
FF,
SVB1,
2Long,
JLS,
Weaver, (I’ll have to go look on GC’s thread to see what you sed there).
Peach,
A.M.M,
T&L,
Orchid,
Thank you Nothanku, (had to say that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> – and welcome you to MB)

11 posters, "this is something new, I wish I had 11 too."

I didn't know all you folks were reading.

Although I would be glad if my XW posted here, she certainly doesn't have to, and I think she probably will not, and in this phase, I'll probably be posting less than before. We have been talking a lot and I am encouraged by many of the things she has said. I know this is painful for her, and I regret failing to defend her on a few occasions - which might have removed some unnecessary pain. All I can say is that, after reading many of these posts, she is still interested in reconciliation - which I consider a positive sign.

Y'all can go back to sleep now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This will take a while.

-AD

AD,

I have never posted to you before but I have been keeping up. I just want to say that I hope for you and your wife things go well.

It's a shame it has to go all the way to divorce to get to possible reconsiliation but it does give those of us in the middle of all this madness hope.

I for one admire you for at least listening to your wife and maybe having a future together again. I can only imagine how hard it will be and the time it will take to trust again. If its something you both want though I am sure you will make it.

God Bless you both and may you have the future you want and deserve.

Hurting

Sorry AD, gotta ask this poster (nothanku)...... what r u talking about? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi AD,
The twins asked about you today. If you were home safe, and if you had a good time. I told them yes twice.

They say thanks - and that you are nice.

I agree.

SS

SS,

I see you're still up. You have mail.

Say "Hi" to the twins for me!

-AD

I'll tell them HI in the morning.

W is gone this weekend. It's just the twins and I. We had a good weekend. I hope you did also.

SS

Well, she can read it here, but I'm persuaded that XW has been dishonest with me again - about a number things - and certainly about having broken off with OM.

She has lied to me and about me.

She left today (with DD, as agreed) - and is (supposedly) right now in the air on a long haul flight to go visit her family for New Years.

She told me who was "probably" driving her to the airport. I called them. It's the first they've heard of it. And there's more, but I'll not spill it all here.

I'm lonely. I feel betrayed again. Why do I keep listening to her?
Please help me stop.

-AD

If your XW has been lying to you, you might consider doing a 180 or go to plan B.

Sorry about the latest developments, but they are not unexpected.

I feel your pain and will keep you in my prayers.

UVA,

I would prefer to just move forward without her.

I've got to keep before my eyes and in my mind all the lies, deceptions, sneaking around etc. When I lose sight of that, I start listening to her again.

-AD

If she keeps on lying to you and you just want to move on, then do so. What I suggest is that you do not maintain the same type of relationship that you now have with her if she keeps abusing your trust.

Just don't put up with her crap! You don't have to.

Best

UVA,

You're preachin' to the choir. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But thanks! I'm lonely here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

-AD

I know how you feel right now, but in the end you will be ok.

Sooooo,

You are lonely for female companiosip?

Or you want to talk because you are bummed by what you found out?

How's the side job comming? If it were me, this would make it doubly hard.

Back when I said pray about it -

This is what I meant. He knows if she will run you through the wringer, or if her heart is right.

He does hate divorce, but he hates deception, and he wants you to have peace too. Remember, the penalty for Adultry in old testemant times was death. One of the things it meant was freedom for the BS. Think about that. Not the death part, but the freedom part.

You want her to get it, and repent, and for things to work. God knows if they will work

Unless she comes after YOU, and is repentant, and unless the myriad of things she holds against you (most of which are not valid) are forgiven in her mind, what have you got?

Continue to seek after the truth about what she is doing. I think Jesus said that "the truth shall make you free."

You are too good a man to have this happen. I feel for you.

SS

AD--Sorry to hear that your book is still having some rough chapters. I'd tell you the ending if I could (but only after I peeked at the ending of mine!!!). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Take care.

t&l

P.S. I HATE rough chapters! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

SS,

Actually, I was just lonely for somebody to talk to. I'm not much interested in female companionship at the moment. I will be, sometime soon, but not at this hour. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Well, if it's real companionship, I guess it would be ok if it was female. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But... I mean real companionship.

You are right about seeking the truth. I want to find all the bad stuff now - and try to make sure it is a large enough dose to finally kill any love I have for her. Actually, I'm feeling a little sorry for her now, because I know she is disappointed about not making it see her folks on New Years - but that's not my problem. If she had planned ahead, that would not have happened. Feeling sorry for her doesn't have to mean that I can trust her - and especially not that I can put my heart and life in her hands again.

...and praying. Honestly, the only prayers I have now are for my daughter. For myself, I rarely pray. But I'll try to start.

Yes, the side job took a hit. I wasted a lot of time yesterday and this morning. I thought about calling the man and telling him he didn't owe me anything and I was sorry, but I can't do it. The thing is, it's a hard problem, but I think I can do it. So, I've decided to just do the best I can, and if I don't think my efforts are worth his money, I'll tell him to pay me less than the agreed price. BTW, there's a single lady (with kids) who works for him - met her yesterday - seemed pleasant.

"...what have you got?", (SS asked).
Nothing (at least from XW).


T&L

Honestly, I don't want to know the future. That would make life boring, and fatalistic. After all, if I'm lucky, my old bones will be tossed in a hole someday - and it's probably better not to know the circumstances immediately preceding that. If they are wonderful circumstances, with loved ones at my bedside, tenderly caring for me, then I'll be amazed at God's goodness to me. If they are otherwise, alone in a nursing home, with poor care, well, that's OK too - 'cause I probably deserve it. Until then, I am alive, and I need to do something to prove it.

And... knowing the future would mean that the future is fixed and nothing I do affects it - like riding a train (and not the engineer) - stuck on these rails til they hit the end of the line. If that were true, I would become a lazy good-for-nothing guy. So, it's good that the choices we make and the things we do make a difference - that our fate is not decided until we have make all our choices. I don't want to start a religous discussion here, but I don't think, in the details, God makes all the choices. He has offered us the freedom to make choices, and by the same token, unless he knows in advance every choice we will make, (which I would think would be unsatisfying to a Creator), we can surprise him (a little) along the way.

The only thing that matters - ever - now and in eternity - is that one thing, pleasing God. To hear the words "well done", from God, the creator of the universe is the prize above all prizes. I want to live my life with my eyes on that prize.

UPDATE - OK, I'll tell more.

The day after what would have been 7th aniversary, the day we were talking about just going to the court house and getting re-married, OM bought plane tickets for her. She lied to me about it - saying that she had bought them on-line from the computer at the library because her computer at home had crashed - but didn't think the order went through because there was a problem and she never got the confirmation that the purchase happened. Then, the next day, she said, she got a confirmation email. What really happened (probably) is that her purchase didn't go through, she told him about it, and he bought her the tickets.

This, after I agreed to give her some of my time with DD - to allow her to be at her parents on New Years (which didn't work out due to travel problems), after I spent hours searching for tickets for her, after I invited her to participate in Christmas with me and my daughter - and after all that, she's still not only in communication with OM - but accepting major favors from him.

I've noticed some other painful things too, but that's enough for me.

PLEASE HELP ME STAY AWAY FROM HER.

And, a Happy New Year to you all, LOL.

-AD

AD, sorry you're going thru such a rough time. The New Year is sure to be better, but it's best to DECIDE to make it better, and work on ourselves.

Hope the year 2006 brings you peace!

AD,

You need to move on. She does not respect if she is treating you like this. You need to move on.

some folks just like the fog too darn much to change...she is imho, addicted to the drama she has created. she enjoys also Ad, my thoughts being she likes BEING CHASED AND PURSUED...and it is a big huge game to her right now. She is single legally...and can pretend to see you and OM at same time.

She has got herself a huge plate of wayward upside down cake in front of her.

I say go dark for a while. Let her know that AD is available! But not for the wayward! I'd let her know you know and say something like this...WOW...I DON'T THINK WE CAN BREAK UP ANY MORE HONEY...BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY DIVORCED...LET'S JUST START ACTING LIKE IT OK?\

Let her know you hand her over to OM on a platter! We will see how happy she is...

I am so sorry she did not turn around. I believed it for so long.

And you can tell her if she doesn't watch it, your new friends in ATL can fix you up with eligible women from GA! Tell her NONE of your business...nada...zilch...go dark! She is your xw anyway. I think she should start feeling like one!

She had it good for too long imho. Dark dear! Very dark! One of 2 things will happen...it will either end the A now...or it will allow you to let go a bit more...even further than the signed decree...and let you realize you are a live and still breathing after this! B gave me relief. Lots of it actually.

Again, I am sorry for her stupidity.

JP,

I read your post a couple of hours ago, and I've been thinking about it. I appreciate you taking the time to think about my sitch and post about it, but I think you've come to some conclusions about my XW which aren't indicated by the evidence.

She is still the mother of my only child, and I've got to have a co-parenting relationship with her for the next 14 years at least. I want my daughter to respect her mother.


I don't think that's it. I don't think she likes drama at all, and she's not playing games. I think she just wants two things:
1) 100% time with our daughter.
2) OM

And she keeps swinging back and forth between two directions. Like every other WS we've heard about, she's "addicted" to whatever OM does for her. I don't believe she's evil, just weak. And inasmuch as we are not married (nor engaged), the only thing I have any right to complain about is the lies - and the lies really hurt worse than the truth. I don't think I can ever trust her again.


To some extent this is true. She "won" back a few of my days with DD by being sortof nice to me - by talking about reconciliation. So, she got what she wanted. Instead of 10 days with DD, I got 6. She promised a couple of extra weekends to make up for it, but I have to trust her for that. We'll see if I get them. I think I will, but can't say for sure.


That's exactly where I am, except I never called her "honey".


Really!? You can?! Oh boy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


That's where I was going ... until she started to try to reel me back in, but now I'm back on course. Eharmony is reactivated, and I've been going through the process with a couple of new matches. Also, there was an old eharmony match who said "call me if the reconcilliation falls through".

And also, I need to get back into the mode of thinking about, of all people, me - and doing things that I enjoy - alone, or with guy friends (of which I am almost bereft at the moment). It's not only dating that I need, but a large dose of taking care of myself.

-AD

I agree you need a large dose of taking care of yourself.

Make a list of the things that need to be done - homes, etc.

When the list is completed, you can date again. You'll know you are ready when you pull yourself together enough to get your stuff done.

Besides that, you'll have all that stuff done, just like you wanted.


It's hit me again like a ton of bricks. I think I'll log off.
SS

Hi folks,

SS, I hope you are feeling better.

I had a hard time over the New Years weekend - very lonely. Haven't slept well. It was good to be back at work - and to be able to go to choir practice on Wednesday night. Tomorrow I'm going to my 11-yo nephew's basketball game, and I've invited a couple from the church for dinner one night next week. I'm starting to dig out a bit.

The other day, I was thinking - remembered a day back in high school when 3 students from our school and one recent graduate died in separate accidents on the same day. I couldn't remember any of their names. It happened on Good Friday the year before I graduated. On a whim, I looked in the online database of the largest local cemetery. I searched for people who died that day - and found one girl - Vicki C., age 16. I remember the name, not the face. I didn't know her. Continuing to browse there, I saw the whole family plot - three graves in a row. It seems that Vicki's mom died 10 years later - to the month, at the age of 47. Her younger brother is buried there too, died at the age of 30.

I've thought about that a while. Who in this city thought about those three people this week? Probably I'm the only one. Nobody with that name lives here anymore. The last one, the brother died in '94. I know how Vicki died, in a car crash. I'm guessing her Mom killed herself - and I can only speculate further how her brother (who was 14 when she died) himself died. It certainly wasn't of old age.

But, I'm guessing ... that if Vicki had not died that day in the Volkswagen (which I drove past that day as it lay upside down on the side of the road), then her mom would not have killed herself - and whatever happened to her brother might also not have happened. So, the death of that young girl started something - like pulling a thread that unraveled that family.

But... it didn't have to be that way. We've each got our own personal tragedies, but we don't have to allow them to consume and destroy us.

That's what I've been thinking about.

-AD

Today is Orthodox Christmas (Jan 7).

My XW's parents celebrate Christmas today. I tried to call about midnight here (would have been 8am there). I wanted to hear my daughter's voice and wish her Merry Christmas. (Lucky kid! If I had only known, when I was a kid, that you can get two Christmases if you're willing to travel a bit... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I practiced a bit - so that I could say "Merry Christmas" in Russian to whoever answered the phone.

I couldn't get through. The phone system over there is not very reliable. Even when you do get through, it's hard to hear, lots of noise on the line.

Maybe it's just as well. Probably I would have had to talk to my XW - and I don't know what I would have said.

I'll go back to bed now. (I did already sleep 2 hours).

-AD

hope you're feeling better, AD.

-ol' 2long

I just read your post about Vicki and her family AD, and I just want to say that you are an incredible person. Not just a compliment but what I have seen by reading your stuff this past year.

It is true about tragedies and the chain of tragedies which often follow one. I know this from my own family.

On here we get such a sense of who a person really is, not in the same way we do in our real lives but a deeper sense I think. On here we read each others thoughts, day in and day out. I mean after the shock and fallout of the affair, when our thoughts and lives become more peaceful and thoughtful.

I know that I have such a sense of who the people are on here whom I have read for so long, like you, and 2long, Gray, SS, Faith, JJ, Binder, Pep, Mel, Ark, Kjelly, TT, notso, WAT, and so many others.

I don't often read stuff from new people because I can barely keep up with all those I follow now.

But it's awesome really, to have this opportunity to get to know others, through their thoughts, and hopes, and pain, and joy.

I have people in my life who I have worked with for 20 years and others I have known since highschool, and I don't think I know them as well as I do all of you, at least not in the same sense as we get to know each other here.

Am I making any sense? I got at least 8 hours sleep too. LOL

AD,

Oh you can celebrate ALL twelve days of Christmas! I am having all three stepsons over tonight for Twelfth Night, and we will exchange presents and have plum pudding!

Especially with custody issues and different families, it's good to celebrate all twelve days. But you can do that just by having friends over for wine by the fire, and telling them why you appreciate them.

It's the weekend to give gifts, remembering the gifts that have been given to us.

Weaver,

Thanks for the kind words. I've been just lightly following your posts over at the campfire. Sorry I haven't posted to you. I do have some opinions/guesses about your BF, but don't trust my judgement. I'm a long way from your situation - and I've done a pretty bad job of figuring out people in my own life.

AMM,

Twelfth Night sounds like a great tradition. It sounds like you are doing well. You're a great step-mom!

-AD

Pleae do give me your thoughts AD. Maybe you are not so hot at figuring out people in your own life, but I read your posts to others and think your insight regarding others is pretty good.

Weaver,

I should have said "I had some thoughts", rather than "I have some thoughts". Slippery things, those thoughts. I think they got away from me. I do think you should be patient and give him some time - and don't insist on something he's not ready to be or do.

-AD

Update:

DD and her Mom (XW) are back home safe! I thank God for their safe travel.

-AD

Hi!

I called my ex the other night at 1:30am - talked for almost 4 hours. She came for sunday lunch. I told her "I want you". She kissed me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Meanwhile a v-day card has arrived from the eHarmony lady. I didn't open it. <sigh>. Mixed up, I am. But really, my ex is the one I want. All this starting over nonsense is not for me.

OK, I'll go clean some floors now.

-AD

So what's changed, AD? How will the future be any different than the past? Your commitment was never in question.

Open the Valentine, AD. And feel lucky you got one.

I'm laughing AM! Really!

Thanks. LOL.

Unfortunately, I left it (the Valentine) at the office. Maybe I'll open it tomorrow. Right now I'm going to write to the lady (sender of the valentine) and tell her what's going on. She's got as much right as anybody to know. If I don't know what to do, at least I can score a few points for honesty.

Oh and as of this hour, my ex's vote is "no". She has a hard time saying "no", so that's a big deal for her - something to celebrate. I don't regret making the approach - nor to I assume that it is the final word on the subject.

As for what's changed... perhaps only my expectation of controlling the outcome.

I don't feel hurt just now, that my ex said "no" or even that she basicly said "you're too old for me" (which is true).

I'm a little more ready to trust God - just do what I can do, make the choices I want to make - and leave the results to God and the other free agents.

I don't feel right now that I'm ready for a relationship with anyone other than my ex - at least not one in which anything is expected from me. Of course, all real relationships should be give and take - thus something would be expected of me - which I'm not ready to give. (yet)

-AD

Personal Growth is often a long, slow process.

What God wants - along with all the other things (successful marriages, happy children) is personal growth.

I can see you growing. I can see you improving. Note - I don't believe God will cause the problems to happen, in this world we live in, he doesn't have to actually cause them. He does help the outcome be for our good.

When you write the lady that sent you the valentine, write your feelings too. Tell her why you are unsure, give background. It will help her cope.

Is the house on the market now?

SS

AD,

Followed you all along. You said something I have a response for...

"at least not one in which anything is expected from me. Of course, all real relationships should be give and take - thus something would be expected of me - which I'm not ready to give. (yet)"

When two or more are gathered in his name...he'll be present. He didn't say he would meet our expectations or ask that we meet his...he said he would be present.

Being present is enough. Leaving the doubts, expectations and future to themselves. Being present is being open to the present.

You are sufficient unto your day.

That's all I got.

LA

Wise words...can someone tatoo them on my arm please? I can't count the times I should have, could have, would have been sooo much better off remembering this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately the emotional divorce and the legal divorce don't always coincide, but we very much need to be open to the present and let things unfold as they will.

I agree with SS as well, please talk to that lady from eharmony and let her know so that hurt feelings don't result..."honest talk" if you will.

SS, LA, Weaver,

Hi to you all!

Hi SS.

Thanks for the wise words, LA. I agree - except that I have to be honest - that I still think of my ex. Being present in body is only part of it.

How are you, Weaver?

I sent eHarmony lady an email (two actually) and have heard nothing in reply.

A third email would be an appology. Still, what can I say? The reality is that my ex is still on the brain. That's the reality. Until I have her firmly behind me, it is unfair for me to ... do whatever it is I'm doing with Ms. eHarmony (basicly just email and phone-calls). Even if my ex were not on my brain, I think Ms. eHarmony was getting a little ahead of me - and I was beginning to feel uncomfortable with that. I had sent her an email last week which said in part "If I don't write or call every day, it is not because I've forgotten about you" - just a hint that I felt she expected daily communication and was "concerned" if I didn't call. This is a lady whom I have not even met in person.

Still, I'm grateful that some woman considers me an acceptable man.

This is, IMHO, just the regular dating-angst stuff - layered over with pining for my ex - which is, probably, part of the regular dating stuff - for people who actually date, that is.

As I told Ms. eHarmony, "I was a drone. I married the first woman who paid me any attention. I don't want to make that mistake again."

Oh, and I haven't told the complete story yet. Quickly, I'll try to fill in the gaps. Ms. eH sent me a book to read "The Letters" (about some people who recieve letters from God). At the end of the book, a man who has been betrayed by his wife calls her, and begins the process of forgiveness. I finished the book after midnight one night, and called my ex - talked for 4 hours. etc. I was "under the influence" of that book (which after all, for all it's good qualities, is a work of fiction, I remind myself).

-AD

I hear you, AD. I meant present in all ways...you think Jesus had a body?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have to underscore this:

"As I told Ms. eHarmony, "I was a drone. I married the first woman who paid me any attention. I don't want to make that mistake again."

Do you grasp what you told her here? If my stomach didn't hurt right now, I'd be rolling. She is the first woman to pay you attention since your divorce. Wow. Quite a message!!

You are so worth reading, AD. Just as you are.

LA

LA,

Why does your stomach hurt? Had a recent surgery? I'm not sure if you're commending my entertainment value or my wisdom.

Still no word from Ms. eH - and I haven't sent that vital apology. I am aware that apolgies should be delivered ASAP - to remediate any suffering - so far as is possible.

At the very least, I owe her my respect and courtesy. I just don't know how to demonstrate that in this situation. I have some ideas, just have to wing it.

XW said on the phone tonight - that she doesn't believe that I can forgive her - doesn't believe that I could love her. A familiar problem - that I don't know how to solve. I tried - for a long time - but it seemed that nothing I did would ever persuade her that I loved her.

...and I have other problems. DD5 has gotten into a pattern of refusing to go to bed. She was still awake 10 minutes ago. Ouch!

Anybody know an open slot in a monastery?

-AD

AD-
I just ran across your thread and started reading the last several post...
Your story is an interesting read, especially because I am also A BS.

Your last post sparked me to write to you.
""XW said on the phone tonight - that she doesn't believe that I can forgive her - doesn't believe that I could love her. A familiar problem - that I don't know how to solve. I tried - for a long time - but it seemed that nothing I did would ever persuade her that I loved her.""
Obviously you are talking with her about your relationship...Is your XW wanting you to forgive her and have a relationship with you?
I am not sure the context of your conversation but one could precieve what she said as her asking for just that.
Forgiveness and affection.
Some one once told me that 80% of statements we make are actually just questions turned around...

Maybe I am all wet... Just thought I would crash your thread and say hello...
You sound like a good guy going threw ****** on earth just as my wife has created for me as well...

btw~ It is actually normal for kids that age to fight going to sleep. Especially if they are not comfortable.
Here are some ideas for getting your kid to bed on time.
1) Have a consistant bed time every night...
2) Make it a fun routine and give rewards and phrase to her at each step along the way. Like getting on her pj's, brushing her teeth, going into her room, getting into bed.. etc..
3) Read books to her... We called it "tucking in time".
I would read to her, then she would read to me. We would mix it up a little. Some time I would read one page and she would read the next. Or maybe she would read me a short story, and i would read the longer one.
A big hit for us at that age was reading the childrens bible. She loved it and it created a lasting memory that even at almost 13 she still remembers clearly.
4) Make sure she is not scared of her room. My daughter was scared where I had the bed placed. We moved her room around and she felt much better.
5) DON'T let her sleep with you... This is a really tought habit to break. Only when she was really scared or sick would I allow her to lay down with me and my wife. That would not be all night either. Just until she felt comfortable.

Maybe some of these ideas can help.
My daughter was also difficult to get to go to sleep. We really had a hard time with it until I started making it fun and comfortable for her. Sadly for my wife she did not really ever participate in bed time with our daughter.
The became something that has bonded me and my daughter together. She will always remember dad as the one that comforted her when she was scared, helped her read, and taught her the bible.

Good luck and god bless you....
btw~ do pray for you wife... I know you hurt, but we all need god...

Dazed,

Of course, I do all that stuff - always have.

-AD

Dazed,

In case you drop by again, I appologize for my short reply. I was kind of frustrated by my parenting difficulties and ... oh, well, I'm sorry.

Your comments about my wife I should have also replied to.

Yes, she is saying that, were it not for her fear that she would have to endure lifelong rehashing of all her "sins", she might be interested in putting it back together.

My only logical action is to make sure that I don't do that.. and over time, she might come to disregard the fear.

-AD

Update :

In the last month I've lost my job due to a company shutdown, and found another in 10 days. I'm enormously grateful to God for the gift of a job.

XW came over and cooked for me one night last week - when she was bringing DD5 to stay with me.

And... recently, XW has said "In some way, I think I will always love you".

WOW! She has confirmed and stood by that - saying that even if she was remarried that would still be true and she would think of me.

So, that is progress.

And the truth is, I'll always love her.

I've "closed" the eHarmony lady and cancelled my subscription. Even if I don't get back together with my XW, I've realized that now is not the time to be looking for somebody else.

-AD

Hi AD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi back, FF.

How're the kids?

Just had to say Hi, but I've got a patient that requires attention and I can't stay to chat. My son is driving to Chicago and is somewhere east of Tulsa. Bad time to be travelling, from what I hear. Hope you're getting better weather than HE is! On all fronts... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&L,

My XW still has a beef against you for calling her "a clam with dia..."

Anyway, other than that, nice to see ya.

We have cold rain all day. If somebody had not stolen my fireplace doors while the house was unoccupied and if I were not such a tightwad (and had ordered some new ones made), I'd be sitting in front of the fire, reading a book and drinking hot tea.

-AD

What's "dia"? Unfortunately, I don't remember any of it, so can't even begin to guess. Was it untrue?

t&l

diarea?

Of course it's untrue, but I knew what you meant and she didn't. But of course, she was so to speak, in the gunsights and it always feels less funny there.

-AD

I, think when, i was In skul I, didn,t lurn whar to, put. The commas!

OK, I sort of remember the diarrhea part, but not the context or why I said it. Tell her it's an American idiom that doesn't translate well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> See what I get for making jokes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l

up-ology ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would it help anything if she got an up-ology? I left you a message on the other thread.

t&l

AACK!

I forgot to write in my update, that I'm distressed that my friend, whom I have referred to as "my lunch buddy", also laid off, has not found a job yet. He's a fine engineer too. It makes my head ache to think about it. And since then, he hasn't gone to lunch with me. I guess I'm too pleased with my great good fortune (to have found a job) to be comfortable company right now.

-AD

YEAH!!!!!

Wow, you didn't even tell us...you spared us some major worry over you by not letting us know in the first place, that impresses me...but also TICKS ME OFF! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

XMrs. AD,

If you are still reading please understand that we are terribly protective of AD, because we have known him here for so long...if you were the one to post (and it would be cool if you did) we would be watching your back too, and encouraging you every step of the way as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Weaver,

I read that, a week ago or so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Sorry not to reply.

Thanks for your concern.

How are you?

-AD

I'm doing really good AD, thank you for asking.

I feel some sort of peace entering my life...and finally I know that it all truly does come from within.

Someday I will share my life with another, but now I am happy to date casually, and this is for the first time ever. It's all new to me, but what my mom always wanted for me.

So 7 years after her death, I am taking her advice.

She always wanted me to not bleach my hair too, so right after she died I put it back to my natural color...and still it is the brown she loved.

Why don't we ever listen to the people who care about us, I wonder.

Update,

Work is good.

Verbal offer on the house (no paper yet).

Other interesting development I promised not to tell about.

Spring is heating up kinda like July already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
(I'm in the South)

I had a birthday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Despite that, I'm feeling fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was talking to a grey-haired, balding man one day - and realized that he was younger than me. LOL. My 5-year-old was brushing my hair the other day (because I had been brushing hers, of course) and asked "why is this white?" I had no answer. I tell her my hair is brown and she repeats it as a fact. Kids are great! (but how long will dear old dad be able to say that white is brown and get away with it?)

-AD
PS. Only some spots are white.

Work is good.

That can make up for a lot of other things that are not good. Well, some things.
Like when you go through the drive through and then spill your fries on to the floor of the car. You just say "Ya know, I have a good job, I'll just drive around and get some more fries."

If you eat the burger fast, you can even get another one of those.

Too.



Verbal offer on the house (no paper yet).
Hope it works. Wouldn't that be nice.


Other interesting development I promised not to tell about.
We can guess though.
Hmmmm, lets see.
Does it involve someone whose initials are XW?
Otherwise known as mother of DD?

If that's not it, maybe it has something to do with the hole in the ozone layer?



Spring is heating up kinda like July already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
(I'm in the South)

It's been cool here lately. So nice to work in the yard, or take hikes, or bike rides. You should come by after work.

I had a birthday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Despite that, I'm feeling fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ha, you young guys don't even know what it's like to feel old. Ah - that is............
I should shut up, my dad says I don't have a clue.

You don't look any older.

If that makes you feel better.

Of course, I haven't seen you since November. Maybe you woke up the day after your b-day and your hair had all turned white?

Hope you got some sleep, I can't believe you stay up so late on work nights.

I was talking to a grey-haired, balding man one day - and realized that he was younger than me. LOL. My 5-year-old was brushing my hair the other day (because I had been brushing hers, of course) and asked "why is this white?" I had no answer. I tell her my hair is brown and she repeats it as a fact. Kids are great! (but how long will dear old dad be able to say that white is brown and get away with it?)

I find they really don't care much, they still love us even as we age. You are still young, it will be weeks yet before you get old. (grin)

PS. Only some spots are white.
I couldn't see any at all - compared to me.

Thanks for the update, I think a lot of you. You went through all that you did, and didn't become bitter, or spiteful, or mean. You have class - and that's worth a lot.

Tell us what's going on as soon as you get permission. We care.

SS

My dad once told me this what it feels like to get old -

"you wake up in the morning feeling like your usual good self and then you look in the mirror, jump back, gasp and ask who the ****** is that old man"

"you go to the golf course with your usual sprie walk, trusted old clubs, famous swing and swinging like you have all your life...the ball just flat refuses to go as far as it used to"

I of course am not there yet, so I can't really comment. LOL

Happy (belated) Birthday AD!

Thanks for stopping by, SS and Weaver.

Weaver, your Dad sounds like he was a fun guy.

SS, I met your Dad and he seems like a fine fellow too.

I don't play golf, so I don't have that constantly shorter drive to remind me of whatever it is that it might mean.

Work is good. We've had a hectic week or two. I've gotten some attaboys. I had a chat with the prez about getting some extra time off (to spend time with my DD) without pay if I can afford it (ie, if the house sells). As long as it doesn't impact schedule, he says. That's good. I'll just have to figure out how to do everything before then.

Our real estate agent says she has a paper offer now. We'll meet her tomorrow to discuss and, probably, respond.

Now it's rainy and cool here - and my grass has suddenly sprung much taller than it has any reason to be. And, 'cause it's wet, I can't do what needs to be done. No matter. All in due time.

I asked DD again what color is my hair and now she says "white and gray". Grump! By the way, did I mention that she, age 5.5 and not yet in grade "K", can READ!? Now, they say that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins, but I'm PROUD of her. What's she going to do in school? Tonight she was playing with my calculator.

-AD

Happy BD, A_D. You know what they say, don't you? You're not getting older. You're just getting better! Well, you keep telling yourself that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Yes, keep telling yourself that. After all, it worked for T&L. You can see she's lots better now than every before.

So glad things are looking up for you. It's about time.

I notice you didn't comment about the initials of the person you can't talk about.

That's fine. We'll just read between the lines.

I did notice you said (speakig of the real estate person) "We'll meet her......."

How am I doing at between the line reading?

Even if I'm wrong, this is still fun.

See ya -

SS

Hi T&L,

Thanks for the encouragement.

S.S,

Well, if I read between your lines to guess what you're reading between my lines... I have no idea what you're reading. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But, the real estate lady is happily married and business partners with her H.

How could I tell if T&L is improved? She tells some colorful tales of mis-spent youth, but we all know by now she's pretty handy with a story. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We now have an agreed upon sale offer contract (whatever it's called) on the house. After appraisal, inspection, the buyer's loan approval etc, we might actually have a sale (which I will recognize by the check in my hand) in 6 weeks or so. That will be an enormous relief.

Work is still good - but hectic, which is good.

-AD

Happy belated b-day, AD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shoot, I've been away too long. I haven't laughed like this for a while - with the white and gray hair, and the french fries (hi SS) and all. I almost couldn't remember my password to sign on, either.

Anyway, I thought I would just pop in to say hello. It sounds like you're doing pretty well.

HI S !!!!

Have been wondering how you are.

Hope you give us an update. Maybe we can bump your thread.

AD - I didn't think you were working something (personal)out with the real estate person.
I hope you do have a sale. I hope you do.

SS

Well, I'm honored!

The long lost SVB1 reappears, and posts on my thread!

I hope you are doing well. I'm doing fine. I still wouldn't mind an email from you. (hint, hint). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-AD

PS. Hi, SS. Talk SVB into giving us an update, will ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi AD,
News about the house?

Or any other news?

SS

I don't know code.

Hope all's well, though, AD.

-ol' 2long

2Long!

It's great to see you!

SS, nice to see you too.

Well, the house sale is running into a problem, and it's going to cost me - but maybe it will go through - just with a few thousand less $$$. (Expensive and unanticipated repair).

I sold my grand piano. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It was the most extravegant thing I ever owned.

But, the money will come in handy.

Other stuff.... nothing I want to talk about right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


-AD

AD, good to see you again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Other stuff.... nothing I want to talk about right now.

I thought so.

Hope the house goes through.

Sounds like life is getting less complicated, and that is usually a good thing.

SS