Well, by morning, it will be 16 days til final.

I think maybe it will hit me hard. Right now, I'm not feeling much of anything.

I sent the "what I need in order for us to stay married" message to W last night - pretty close to what I had suggested here.

Her immediate response was negative, as expected, but she called back a couple of times and talked more constructively.

During her long monologue on the phone today, I finally realized that it really isn't "just me". She lacks basic conversation skills. I don't know how to approach that, but it really needs to be fixed. She talks and talks and talks and never gives me an opportunitity to respond to anything she says. She might as well be talking to herself.

... Like I am, on this thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

At this point, I think she would have agreed to sell the other house and move in here - but I'm suggesting that we not live here because if she moves in, it becomes again "the marital dwelling" and she's got her hooks into my house again. So, I propose we live "somewhere else" and that I rent this place out for extra cash.

I sent her another missive tonight - addressing some concerns that she had.

DD is here, sleeping.

... which is what I must be doing too.

Oh, I have to put in this about DD. She asked about the piano (the electronic keyboard that fell on her - cutting her leg a few days ago). I told her that it was in it's case. She went over and unzipped the case, looked inside and said "the piano is sad." What a sweety!

I think she wanted me to take it out and let her play with it. I'll do that when I figure out how to set up up securely so that it cannot possibly fall on her.

g'night.

-AD

A clam with diarrhea. What a novel concept. I'd never really thought about that before, and now that I have, I've decided it would be even worse to have that than a constipated one! All mouth, no ears...


No you're not. I read everything you post on this thread, as I'm sure others do as well. Why they aren't posting back, I couldn't tell you, but for me personally...well, I've been busy eliminating phluhgh as fast as I could so I could get back to the soymeat of the Saga. I'm sure you will understand, dear AD!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't they say if you fall off a horse you ought to get right back on again? Not suggesting that your DD should ride the piano exactly, but it's nice that she's not afraid of it and I hope you get it set up and secured soon so that her interest in it stays active. Maybe we can all go hear her play in Carnegie Hall someday...

t&l

That was just my way of saying "Readers, report in!"

I don't really expect many posts here, since I'm not asking any questions and not fishing for advice. (much)

But, I will ask, for anyone still reading:

Is it appropriate to require anything more than the two basic items?
1) (Re)commit to the marriage vows.
2) Commit to (monitorable, enforcable) NC with OM forever.

The rest of it should perhaps fall back into the normal process of negotiation within the marriage.

I have an impulse to just say "Come move in over here, and let me take care of the rest" (getting her out of her lease, getting the house sold, moving stuff, etc.)

I want the marriage to be "real". If I can do what your HP does - and say nothing more about the A (as long as she make a clean NC), that would be cool. If I could really start clean with no references to any past offenses, that would be super-cool.

I'm rambling.

DD is here. I'd better go pay attention.

-AD

AD,

Your marriage is 16 days from ending and while I admire your last ditch efforts to save/rebuild it, I hope that you finally realize that your STBXWW will NOT put any effort into it and would like nothing better than to have the status quo she's enjoyed, to stay in place. The time for wishful thinking has ended.

While you'll always have a 'working relationship' with her because of your daughter, it is time for you to wean her from your emotional support. This is not for the purpose of being mean spirited and vindictive towards her but so that you can have the opportunity to start rebuilding your life. If you don't then you may never fully recover and any future committed relationship will be doomed from the start.

I hope you give this some serious thought.


TMCM

I am in awe and admiration for your dedication.

Your W was lucky to have you. And while it is hard to do a plan B with a clam suffering from diarrhea, it may be very well time.

I might consider it when the ink is dried. That way there is no "marital home or marital this or that". She gets what her actions deserve.

She at some point must learn cause and effect. even children get this. My son understand this at age 7 and understood at 5 pretty well.

Don't fix for her anything. This is her doing. Let her do it.

You have defined 2 points of healthy boundaries that must be met for you to NOT divorce her. She won't meet them. Thus, you must stick to your boundaries and the D is on.

I am sorry. Am praying 4 you my friend and for your DD.

Chin up. Maybe the plan B and coincidence of the D may wake the clam up and cure the diarrhea.

Is it possible that it's just now starting to sink in with your WW what it will be like for her without all the buttresses, supporting columns, hedges, guard dogs, and etc., that marriage to you has provided for her life? That being alone and on her own is looking scarier and scarier by the moment? I'm kinda leaning towards this idea myself, based on my insignificant knowledge of your situation; however, I seldom let ignorance stand in the way of forming an opinion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If you think this might be the case, then the "freedom" she wanted to obtain at any cost is going to look downright costly once she gets it. And, if this might be the case, I have to wonder if getting what she "wants" might not be the best thing for her, in the long run. You don't want to put yourself through the wringer for somebody who only sees you as a comfy cushion upon which to sit in comfort and safety. She needs to want you, not just what you provide. And sometimes the best way to accomplish that is to let the wanderers wander, and find out what it's really like out their on their own. Remarriage down the road to a repentant, sincerely-desiring woman is a whole lot better than staying married to someone with the attitude she appears have towards you now. I once called her a chain jerker extraordinaire. Nothing she's doing is changing my mind, either. And I don't think you deserve to have your chain jerked like that even once...to say nothing of overandoverandoverandoverandover again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Of course, letting the divorce go through in no way guarantees that she'll come back sorry later. But if you do and she doesn't, then I don't have a lot of confidence that staying married would've produced a different result--only the same one delayed long enough to let you accumulate a bunch more pain before the inevitable conclusion. You're the only one who knows how much of this you can take. Everybody has a breaking point, though. Don't exceed yours.

Guess I'm doing break relief for another nurse and have to go watch her pt. Hope the fact that you're not online means you're sleeping tonight for a change! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Well, I don't have much to say. But it isn't because I haven't been thinking of you and wishing the best for you.

I, too, fall prey to wishful thinking in your case. I think 2MCM nailed it.

But as far as your two points go, yes they are minimal and necessary. In an earlier post you had included all sorts of things like not insulting or yelling at each other -- which are good, of course, but these things tend to happen in the course of a marriage anyway, and it erodes the inviolability of the Big 2 clauses when you have some that will be violated just because sometimes people do lose their tempers.

Maybe you want to have a third for MC and, especially in her case, IC. Then you some of these issues can be addressed there.

Good luck.

It won't work if you nobly say nothing about the A, but subconsciously or otherwise redirect your complaints at everything else she does! Transference is not a marriage builder, either.

I'm afraid you've got some tough work ahead of you, my friend, whether you divorce or try to rebuild. Which is too bad, because it's ever so much more fun to have fun! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Oops. I clicked the wrong thing and lost my post. drat!

Coffeeman!

It's so nice to see you on my thread.
I'm sure you are absolutely right. Developments this afternoon prove it out.

I think I'm done (again).

Peach,

It's nice to see you over here too. I know you've got a load of care right now dealing with your X. Didn't you used to say that he pretended to be "an international man of mystery"? I would have another name for it. I hope you are able to get full 100% custody with no visitation with him. On the other hand, that might make him a "man of mystery" to your son - and the last thing we want is for your little boy to follow in those footsteps. Even though you are giving him a good example, he might not "get it" that what a wise and decent woman does is pretty much what a wise and decent man does. And by the way, if I didn't congratulate you on your new (well it was new) job, Congratulations! Maybe the best thing for your son would be if you remarried to a good decent man - so your son could see what such a man looks like. Choose carefully. I know you can see through the flash and glitter now, and won't fall for that again.

Just to clarify what I was saying about my wife. She has been saying that she understands and does not resist the requirement of NC. Her objections lie elsewhere, not that it matters now.

T&L,


I'm sure you are right! But really, what she "wants" is to have both of us. She denies it, but long ago she once said "I want your money, and his everything else." If I had done something closer to a Plan B, she might have gotten some understanding by now. But that's water under the bridge.


Quite true - and I don't think that would be a problem for me. Forgiveness comes pretty easily to me - as long as there is honesty and contrition. Groveling is not required.

A.M.Martin,

Hello again to you too. I haven't been tracking your situation for awhile - just not enough energy to look at other people's problems very much - and you seem to have everything pretty much on track.

Yes, the vows contain quite enough about treating each other with respect. "It's in there!" Of course, people yell at each other now and then, but I didn't want the daily pattern of insults and IHY's. If I stay married, or marry again, I want my wife (whoever she may be) to work just as hard to please me and meet my needs as I work to please her and meet her needs. The vows are the same for both of us. The house deal was intended to give me some protection. At this point, I would need that. But this afternoon, she lied to me again - and really put me off the entire thing.

-AD

Oh AD, I don't disagree with you -- it's just that most marriages don't break up when somebody yells. Many break up for adultery. By making those kinds of things conditions for reconciliation, you are setting yourself up for failure. For preconditions, stick to the deal-breakers -- adultery, contact with OM, etc. Yelling can be worked out in counseling. And if it happens before reconciliation -- along with lying -- you don't have to go back in.

I think you are on the right track, too.

So now she won't have his "everything else" nor your money, either? How appropriate. How fitting. How just. Besides, I learned way back at the beginning of the Saga with the prison inmate episode, that moving on to somebody else wouldn't really have solved anything, because I was still going to be me when I got there, just "me" in a different place. She will still be the same discontented, angry, bitter, etc. person in her "new" life of "freedom" that she was when married to you. If that insight ever penetrates her brain for real, let me reassure you it will be one of the most unpleasant shocks she ever gets!

t&l

T&L,

Oh, she'll probably still marry OM. I don't doubt it. She'll hang back for a few months so she can pretend (to whom?) that she met him after the D. That will annoy him, no doubt.

I'm smiling at the thought of how miserable he's going to be - no matter what she does. If she marries him, he will learn a thing or two about life - things that I wish I had not had the occation to learn. Of course, she's older and gentler now, but she's much more skilled in lying than she was 7 years ago.

I was over there - was it yesterday? I guess it was, and she wanted me to hook up the printer to her computer. I had been supsicious of that computer. She told me that her nephew gave it to her, and when I expressed disbelief ('cause he would either have sold it or taken it with him to Moscow), she said that it was an extra computer from a friend of her nephew. But, when I looked at it yesterday, I saw that the word processor was registerd to OM. I asked her again where she got it. She again repeated the lie. I confronted her about it - then she said that OM was a friend of her nephew. (Just as I was writing this, I realized that OM probably was at the going away party for N that I was not invited to.) I'll ask the host of that party about that - or maybe I'll just tell them that we are D'ing and why. He's an old friend - and deacon at my church.

So, after I discovered where the computer came from for sure, I just left. She was still distressed about her printer not working. I told her "you can get a new one for about $75" - and left.

I didn't answer her calls (of which there were many).

Now, I know my wife pretty well - and let me tell you, that computer was almost new. I think I can guess what happened, 'cause I know her. Probably she visited OM's appartment - and he was proudly showing her his new computer - and she said "I want that!", LOL. I know her. She does that! So, he, under the circumstances, couldn't turn her down. I'm laughing about it now. Probably he's now back to using some old slow broken one. Same thing happened last time I bought a new computer. LOL. He will learn, boys and girls. He will learn. And, he's got a whole lot fewer dollars to play with than I do. LOL. LOL. LOL!

So, after the lies, I withdrew any offers of reconciliation.

Today,

Yes, today.

W had an evening class, and I kept DD. So, when W came by to pick her up, she stepped into the foyer and said "something smells good. Did you cook? Is there any left?" "It's curried beef", I replied. "Can I have some?", she asked. "Sure, you can have it." She walked into the kitchen, looked around. I took it out of the fridge. "Oh, it's not fresh", she said, a little disappointed. "I made it yesterday", I lied. LOL. So off she went with her prize of 4-day-old curried beef.

I know her.

It was still good. I ate some for dinner - really good, actually.

But tomorrow, I think I'll have some fresh food.

And in 2 weeks, a somewhat fresher life.

-AD

Good plan AD.

I'm up because I need to learn a song for a gig tomorrow, and I spent all night working on the house.

What's your excuse?

GC

GC,

No excuse, and no real explanation.

I have a theory about it, but it's not quite jelled yet.

I'll go now.

Probably.

But which plan is good, the "fresh food" plan?

... and actually, I didn't intend to lie to her. I just forgot when I cooked it. Now I'm beginning to think it was Saturday, so it's only 3 days old. I'm sure it wasn't yesterday.

Hmmm. My memory is going. Today, I couldn't remember my cell-phone number, and when I did, I had to check it by calling it from the land-line just to be sure. Sleep deprivation does that.

I know it's not a old-age thing. Not yet.

-AD

... and I did at least clean the kitchen instead of spending all my time on-line.

-AD

Yes, he certainly will. They don't call it The School of Hard Knocks for nothing. And from what I gather, it seems possible that at least some of those knocks might be literal! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Break my heart.


Sort of an interesting metaphor for poor OM, who THINKS he's getting fresh curried beef when the curry he's about to have is really more like Lazarus--"Lord, he's been dead four days and he stinks!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I'm a little bummed about how DD is doing.

She's getting more and more defiant. Today WW dropped her off at my office, and after working another hour, (during which DD made a ruckus, unfortunately), I brought her home with me. DD didn't want to come here. Wanted to go to her Mom's apartment. I told her Mom is not home. She replied "Yes she is!". etc. etc.

I feel sorry for her.

-AD

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that! It'll work for a few years more anyway.

t&l

Hi t&l!

... are your patients a little more patient tonight?
Not popping? (yet)

You are at the hospital, right?

-AD