Recent posts and a new personal experience have compelled me to post a query about sex - without a "dating" type relationship. An actual "friend w/benefits" offer.

Pro's - cons - comments?

In other words: Can a man and a woman have a physical relationship - and remain "just friends"? At any age? Does age make a difference?

FR

Fishracer, I have done it before and it was not a bad experience, but it's a slippery slope to walk. Although it didn't happen in my most memorable "friends with benefits" case, one person is bound to end up feeling more than the other. Even if they do not regret the relationship for the slight hurt it might cause, there can still be hurt.

Now, I was younger when I did this and it was between my two marriages. He was a wonderful friend, and a wonderful lover. I never felt "empty" like one might feel after casual sex. But he was not the kind of person I wanted to date. As far as I know, the same was true for him.

I've had several of these relationships...the one I describe above was the best. But then there was another guy--still just a friend...and another good lover but someone whom I would not wish to date. He didn't want to date me either. However he came around for "sex" a lot more than I was comfortable with and I stopped that part of the relatioship. We did remain friends, but we were never very close like I was with the first situation I described so it was a very casual friendship. I did feel "empty" after encounters with this person.

I'm in a situation now...I believe that both of us would like more than frienship with benefits, but it's not a probable situation. So I will distinguish here between a VERY special friend and friend.

I did it long ago with one person. Okay, truth be told, he was an ex-boyfriend and I was still in love with him.

I dated one gentleman when I was younger and we had sex, but we were mainly really good friends. So, even when the romance ended, the friendship didn't really. To this day, he could call me up and we'd be friends with stuff to talk about.

My guess is that the FWB doesn't really work well.

Fish,

I really don't see how it could work, but maybe for some it does.

For me, my heart would have to be involved or would get involved.

But, I'm the extreme I guess. This is coming from someone who recently went on their first "official" date, and found out after that the guy wanted to hold my hand. To which I told him, I'm glad he didn't, because I'm not ready for that. [pretty pathetic]
So, maybe I shouldn't be posting to this topic!

As far as age, I can't imagine that it makes a difference. I still tend to think someones heart would get involved, and then what?

K!

I just want to distinguish between casual sex and friends with benefits.

At this point in my life I am no longer interested in casual sex, though at one time I was.

To me, "friends with benefits" does not define casual sex. If you're friends with someone you care a great deal about them and your heart *is* involved. The level at which it is involved is the determining factor here.

First situation I described, not casual sex even though there was no romantic relationship.

Second situation I described, I would define more as casual sex. Yes, we were friends, but not *good* friends.

Current situation, not casual sex. But as I said, there would be more than friendship if it was a different situation.

Interesting topic....and timing.

I have been divorced for 3 years. Did some dating, but stopped a year ago because I got tired of the getting to know yous over and over again...sorting out levels of relationship expectations, etc. It became easier for me to not date.

I am 50 years old. My exWS had an affair with a 21 year old when he was 47. Ouch! Anyhow, I recently met and started a friendship with the 34 year old nephew of a neighbor. We'd all get together at the neighbor's house and socialize. It was a casual, fun time with lots of laughter and conversation. I never thought of the nephew in terms of a dating prospect. He was humorous and great looking, but the age difference was too great...and most men want women their age or younger.

Well, one evening the nephew came over to my house and asked to come in and talk. He said that he was going to be upfront and honest and just tell me that he was attracted to me and would like to spend more time with me. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. He said he'd always liked older women. While I was attracted to him, I knew that we were very different in our life goals and values. We would never work as a long term couple. But, I was at the stage in my life where I just wanted to have fun...be that "rebel" teenager that I never was.

So, I said that I would like to spend time with him to have fun, but that I didn't see our relationship as anything long term. Additionally, I was moving out of the area in about one month, and he knew it. So, my "goal" was to push the edge...take more risks...rebel....have fun! And this 34 year old was great at having fun! (Not so good at being responsible!)

Our "fun" ended up including having sex based on mutual desire and agreement. I never had this type of experience before. I always saw myself as someone who had to be "in love" with someone to have a sexual relationship with them. I would see this as similar to aislinn's description of the second situation where the sex was more casual, and we were friends, but not "good" friends. The sex was great. It was actually almost refreshing to not have to worry about longterm emotional entanglement. I was just being in the moment doing something I missed, and enjoyed, with someone I was attracted to...period!

We seemed to both be comfortable with the arrangement. I do think that I would have been uncomfortable if he was having sex with others during this time. But, that had more to do with "comparison" and my self-esteem, not anything between the two of us. (And of course, increased risk for STDs!)

I would have never guessed in a million years that I would be involved in this type of experience. I was a 23 year old virgin when I married my first husband. I recognize that there were negatives as well as positives in this recent experience, but isn't that true of much of life and relationships?

I'm not going to go around advocating for this type of experience, but neither am I going to hide my head in shame. It met a need for me. It was a great ego boost...and nice to have sex again! I do think it's important, however, that you be as clear as possible with each other about the expectations and limits of the relationship. Yes, someone's feelings can change, but that's also true of a more traditional dating relationship.

I can only speak from my personal experience on this and not theorize too much. I will say that for me, like Korona, I don't think it's possible. I do believe that if I would have engaged in that type of relationship, I at minimum, would have been worse for the wear.

There was a time years ago when I was open to and probably seeking out this type of relationship. In hindsite, I see that it was at a time in my life when I was depressed and was looking for anything to fill that emptiness. That emptiness ended up being filled but it wasn't with friendship.

I would also say that for me, FWB, relationship go against my morals, values, and Christian beliefs.

So for me, I'm glad that didn't work out, it truly would have been like feeding a cracker to a starving man. Now I sit at the table and feast with a beautiful wife.

Even if it can "work" is that really what you want from a relationship?

What are the pros beside the obvious satisfaction of your physical sexual needs?

Does this kind of relationship really satisfy your sexual needs or only a part?

I'm not pro or con, just wondering if when all is said & done, will you feel good about the experience & will she.

I know in the past when I wanted to feel intimacy (all levels) my mind first went to the physical & that becomes a focus point. But for me, in the end, there was always something missing & the experiences never gave the satisfaction I really wanted.

But, I'm older & wiser (? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) now so...

I have a FWB and it is working well for us, so I know from experience that it is indeed possible. Yet Karona's point is valid. It definitely IS NOT for everyone and women have to be especially careful because sex changes the dynamics of any relationship.

FWB relationships are best reserved for people who are emotionally healthy and looking for alternatives to the usual way we approach relationships. It requires that both partners seek the relationship for the exact same reason and ground rule have to be clearly defined up front.

Of paramount importance is that you begin as friends - real friends. As in any other relationship, the biggest mistake is to allow sexual desire to cloud your judgement and reasoning. The other mistake is a lack of acknowledgement that the relationship may develop into something more than a friendship with benefits. So the partners have to be on the same page with this. If, for example, one partner would be pleased if the relationship went to the next lever, while the other doesn't want this, the only choice to forego a FWB relationship. Yes, this is a very slippery slope.

My FWB is a very good and dear friend. She's a few years younger than me and never been married, She was sick to death of the dating scene. When dating, you have two choices: casual sex or full-blown romantic relationships. Well, she isn't interested casual sex anymore and decided that the endless stream of romanitc relationships was costing her too much. but she still has sexual needs that she wants fulfilled. On my part, I am not ready for a romantic relationship, but also have needs I'd liked filled. So we discussed this for some time and very carefully before we decided to give it a try. There are ground rules, of course. The primary one is that the relationship MUST be sexually monogamous. Another is that while each of us are free to date and if either decides to pursue a romantic relationship with someone else, the FWB relationship must end first. The relationship cannot be just about sex, so we spend time together doing all the things that friends do together. Indeed, the sex is not the most important part of the relationship; the companionship is far more important. Either of us may decide to end the sexual relationship at anytime and the decision MUST be honored. While "falling in love" and taking the relationship to the next level is not off the table, should either of us find that our feelings are deepening, this must be discussed openly and honestly and decisions made based on the current context. The failsafe position for such a situation is to end the sexual activity until a decision is made. Any changes in the ground rules must be mutually agreed to, never unilaterally without discussion.

Does this approach sound familiar? It is actually a loose adaptation of MB principles. And you know what? It's working for us. This tells me that MB can work it both partners buy in. I find this aspect very encouraging. To be honest, the FWB approach, when done correctly has many advantages over traditional dating. In traditional dating, there is initial attraction, a getting to know you period, love develops (real or misidentified lust), sex happens, and maybe, though not always a REAL friendship develops. In the FWB approach I am using the friendship comes first and love comes last. Sex is relegated to an adjunct status. We never have to worry if the relationship is progressing as it should. We also never have to worry if we are deluding ourselves and really all there is between us is a sexual attraction that will never sustain the relationship.

Our FWB relationship has been going on for seven months now and we are both pleased and satisfied with it. Indeed, my friend says that she is more comfortable in this relationship than any romantic one she's had, since she's never waiting for the other shoe to fall. She says she know me better than the man with whom she had a six year relationship. Will this relationship develop into something more one day? I don't know. Neither of us are considering this at this point in time. I do know that if it does, it will have a much better chance for success because friendship and not romance is the most important part.

I can't do FWB, but that's just me and knowing myself.
I think of all my girlfriends who might SAY they can do it, but then get too involved in it all and before you know it, the friendship is over and feelings are hurt and egos wounded.
It's been my experience that deep down, we are ALL looking for that "one", and although Check, you seem to have it all worked out there, I know that isn't the norm, as I'm sure you do! Most people can't keep it all in perspective.

My other thought is, IF you DO meet someone that you are truly interested in, what will SHE/HE think of your friend that you are still friends with that you WERE having sex with? I think that would spark some insecurities. I'm pretty sure it would for me.

It is possible.

Yea`h, it's not the "norm." Yet, that is. FWB relationships are very popular with the 20-something crowd and is quickly becoming the preferred sexual outlet for educated people who aren't ready for marriage. When you think about it, this is really a good thing.

I gotta tell you, Drita. I have never once discussed my sexual relationship with one woman with another - not even my wife. That is always, alway, always private. It has to be this way, because I only own half of the relationship and have no right to unilaterally disclose the intimate details. Radical honesty DOES NOT include details of past sexual relationships. If some woman is going to be insecure over my past sexual relationships, she has no future with me. I've never been promiscuous and that will have to suffice. One must never allow themselves to be made responisble of another's insecurities.

WOW! I need to get out more! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Very interesting replies here and I appreciate the openness from all.

I have a few questions and comments:

Hi Aislinn:
I've always considered FWB to be more along the lines of casual sex - interesting that you feel otherwise. Based on your thoughts, is it safe to assume that your FWB relationship could eventually develop into a romantic relationship?

heartmending: Your sitch is more along the lines of how I envision a FWB relationship to work. Interesting though that you are able to keep your emotions from becoming involved. Do you have a fear that this experience may desensitize your emotions once you enter a truly romantic relationship?

nams: Good questions. I look forward to seeing the answers.

Check: Your story is compelling and I have to ask: Are you in love with your FWB? Do you feel that she is in love with you? It seems to me that you two have the relationship that the rest of us aspire to have. Your relationship is clearly founded in trust, she says that this relationship is better than a recent 6-year relationship, and whether you realize it or not - it sounds to me like you're "ga-ga" over this gal. Is there a chance that the only thing keeping the two of you from being together - is stating that you're together?

I am probably more like Lost Husband, Greengables and Karona in that for me - the emotional part of sex contributes to or defines the physical enjoyment. [I'm now waiting for the giant "Old Milwakuee" beer can to fall on top of me at any moment!] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Maybe I'm too prudish, but I am curious about the details (nothing graphic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) of how this works...

When people do this FWB sex, is there anything else involved? I mean is there also hugging, kissing, "sweet nothings", and other things one might associate with sex? Or is it more of the kind of sex we see in porn movies, "wham bam thank you ma'am"?. Satisfy your needs and move on...

I am just having trouble picturing how this works. To my (perhaps prudish) mind, it would seem that along with sex, one would get into the other stuff too... But if you do, are you not then having a romantic relationship?

Put another way, if you are having a FWB relationship as described above, you are monogamous, and are very emotionally close to the other person, how is that different from a romantic relationship? Perhaps not one that would lead to permanence or commitment, but romantic nonetheless? Or are there really no feelings whatsoever involved?

AGG

No, I am not ga-ga, FR. I am very fond of this woman, but I was before the FWB. She's the only one of my friends who seems to understand what I was going through in my divorce. Everyone else was sympathetic the first week after the D, but then if quiclky turned into get off you can and get back out there, you must move on, don't sit and sulk, etc (we've all hear these well-meaning but emptry platitudes). But they really didn't care to see my pain and avoided me (familiar anyone?). She ddn't do this, but stuck by me through ups and downs and padded the walls when I was bouncing off them.

But I am not "in love" with her. Can I love her? I really don't know. Right now, I won't allow myself to go there. Yes, it is possible not to allow yourself to fall in love. No there is much more to this than just stating "we're together." People usually state "they're together" when they are so far apart it's a wonder they don't see it for themselves. Maybe one day we will be together in the way you mean, but not now.

BTW, the sex my friend and I have is not just physical release without emotion. There's plenty of emotion or I wouldn't be interested. I will say that it isn't the same as it was with the wife that I loved, but I don't expect that. That's a gift that is for some other time.

"When people do this FWB sex, is there anything else involved?"

Yes.

"I mean is there also hugging, kissing, "sweet nothings", and other things one might associate with sex?

I've never been clear on what exactly a "sweet nothing" is (sounds like something lovers should never do -- how about "sweet somethings"), but to the rest, yes.

"Or is it more of the kind of sex we see in porn movies, "wham bam thank you ma'am"?. Satisfy your needs and move on..."

"Wham bam thank you ma'am" is what you do with prostitutes - or with other "non-pro" women if you are a complete cad and have no respect for a woman or her feelings. Porn movie sex? I think there is a tad of that in any healthy relationship.

Okay, how to say this...
I agree I don't go out talking about my sexual exploits, and I hope that you did not think I was calling you promiscuous, Check, and I certainly would NOT tell the "future SO" (when you meet her) that you were rollin' in the hay with current gal, but if current gal is still around and being a friend (now, without benefits!), and new gal comes on the scene and she has ANY ability to pick up things and read people, she will find out about you and current gal, and she will be hurt that you did not tell her that current gal at one time was a FWB.
Does that make sense?
Here's what I'm trying to say:
I currently have a FWB. (Not really, this is for instructional purposes only!) I'm dating others. I find someone I'm interested in and I decide I need to cool the sheets with FWB. FWB understands because we talked all about it and knew all of this upfront, because we are responsible, 20 something and/or educated people.
FWB one day meets new (because of my optimism, I'm going to marry me off!) H.
Me and new H one day go to a BBQ and FWB is there. FWB and I are, of course, still friends. SOMEHOW, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE lets it slip and new H is terribly hurt because I never said anything about FWB. Now his trust in me is shattered and I have some real problems.
I'm only playing devil's advocate. But what will you do with FWB when you are done and moving on? Can you trust that nothing will ever be said? Can you take the chance of NOT telling new W?
I know I'm not like most people (and you all don't know me that well -yet- and will think I'm weird) but I'm very perceptive, and I'm PRETTY sure that if my BF and his former FWB ran into each other, I'd feel it. Hard to hide-and I'm not saying you should. I'm only raising the question!
I can't do the FWB, remember, I'm only thinking of what could happen and then how you will deal with it if/when it does!

Then how is it different from "regular" relationship sex? If you are emotionally connected, have deep respect for each other, have emotions for each other, are monogamous, and are sleeping together, how is that not a romantic relationship?

Or is it just the fact that you are not "in love" that makes it FWB sex?

AGG

Oh, and do you go eat and stuff like that? If so, who pays? Do you go dutch?
Do you have sleep overs? Is there breakfast? Who cooks? Is there a key involved, like if I wanted to come over after being out with friends...
Yes, GG, I'm curious too!

No, I didn't think you were calling me promiscuous. My point is that I never have been. It would be important if I were, but since I'm not, my past sexual exploits are no one's business by my own.

BIG LESSON COMING: Whenever you marry, your relationship with any same-sex friend must change. It makes no difference if that is an FWB or not. You must put up boundries - the old windows and doors concept - and never risk betraying your marriage by having too intimate a relationship with your same-sex friend. For example, you never discuss marital or sexual problems with a same-sex friend.

"H is terribly hurt because I never said anything about FWB. Now his trust in me is shattered and I have some real problems. "

The answer here is that your H has a serious personal problem. You do not, nor should you ever be required to, give your mate a laundry list of the people with whom you have slept. Period. If they find out about it, your only reaction should be "that has nothing to do with our relationship. That's in the past and it's private." If your mate become jealous or develops trust issues, then it is a problem he need to work out with a psychotherapist, since this is not an appropriate or emotionally mature response. It only becomse your problem if you do not insure that you are not dealing with such a person before you say "I do."

"But what will you do with FWB when you are done and moving on?"

I will answer this question with another. How is this any different than what those here who advocate multple-partner dating have to do when they settle on one person? As I have said, we agreed on the ground rule about this up front. So really, it's very different than being suddenly and summarily dumped by someone you are dating and becoming attached to and then learn you didn't make the final cut.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, not do I think my FWB and I have thought of each and every possibility and have a contingency plan ready. But we've done better in this regard than most married couples do - I gaurantee that. And the lines of communication are always open and unclouded. Obviously there are risks involved. but are there any more risks than there are in a more traditional relationship? I think not.