Is it possible you have a very serious issue with self-esteem?

Is it possible that you don't leave because you are afraid that no one else will want you?

Abusers thrive when they are able to keep you secluded from the rest of the world. They ALL do that.

If you stay in this, one thing is guaranteed for your kids. Either they will learn that this is normal, and be abused themselves, or they will "learn that this is normal" and become abusers.

KMEJ,

This is exactly the reason I eventually chose to leave my former abusive marriage. I couldn't bear the thought of my daughter being in this situation when I might have been able to prevent it by teaching her something else.

The thought of my son being like his father was a horrid image.

KMEJ:

Greetings, hope you are doing well and that you are dealing with the pitiful start of the Vikes season.

At first, I thought this was an "old thread" bumped, but then I realized it was an update of more of the same...

Hey K, ill send you an email.

KMEJ,

My H let me back on MB, and here you are. Our M is still horrible; however, we are following the POJA. I was willing to give up MB and try to work with him to meet his needs.

We had a showdown of sorts. We had been going to a MC who said the POJA is "la la land". Interesting hint of a disrespectful judgment in that comment, isn't there? Anyway, after 10 sessions of my showing a willingness to follow the POJA and the MC being all for that but thinking it just horrible that I expect the same of my H, I gave up and said I didn't want to go back. My H decided to continue IC with him, I said I felt uncomfortable with that, and he said my opinion was irrelevant.

I wish I had the date when I said this, sometime in July, but I don't but it was a turning point for me: "I cannot control you. I cannot coerce you. I cannot convince you. Move out."

He cancelled the appointment.

From where I am, the POJA is the way out of abuse. If you decide to violate the POJA, for any reason, such as by deciding to go back to college, you'll continue on in an abusive marriage in which you play a chit game -- tit for tat, eye for an eye. It doesn't matter how unreasonable you think he is in what he asks you to NOT DO. Your job is to not do anything which he sees as negative for him -- only possible exception being exposing physical abuse or protecting physical health of you or the children. If you use that standard, going to college doesn't come close to meeting the standard necessary for violating the POJA.

If you decide to violate the POJA, start the process of a legal separation first and get him out of the house. If you do divorce and he comes back to you willing to follow the POJA, you can always remarry.

Our 9 year old son is showing abusive tendencies. It breaks my heart.

Cherished

Cherished:

May I respectfully say that you need so much help it is frightnening. These "principles" were not designed to work with abuse (be it sustance or physical, etc..). I know you have alot of issues, and it will probably take you getting killed to ever "get it", but please for the love of God, don't say things like "POJA is the way out of abuse" and things like "only possible exception is abuse on the children".

Most others here don't have the guts to say anything to you, but I don't care about being popular or being liked here. I don't need to get my needs met by adoration on this board....you have no doubt suffered greatly in your marriage, and for reasons I am not even sure exist, you stay and are in a "horrible" marriage....you say things like "my husband LET me back on POJA".....My God, I fear for your children...as they have a very very very high likelihood of either being the giver or reciever of abuse. Get some help please.....you are so far out in left field, you don't know if you are coming or going.

I just shake my head in awe at this site. I have to go and mow my lawn now, this thread has mad me sick. I think it is time for another hiatus.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Breaks mine too ... but comes as no surprise what-so-ever ... recognizing the fact that his father broke his mommie's arm when she was going to talk to daddy's OW.

??? maybe you think you deserved that broken arm because you did not POJA talking to OW with WH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

POJA with someone who's mentally ill! There's an idea.

GC

Mine, too.

Especially when all of this is so preventable. I don't know Cherished's history, but I know a bit about KMEJ's.

Lemonman is right. MB principles do not apply when there is abuse in a M. You might as well be spitting in the wind, for all the good applying these principles will do you.

The state of the M and the lives of abused women are sad situations. What I find even sadder is the state of the lives of your children and the futures you are robbing them of. You have a choice. They don't.

If you are watching your children display abusive behaviors, has it occurred to you that those behaviors are just the tip of the iceberg?

Children don't tell you everything. They see and hear so much more than you know. They are learning from both of your behaviors so much more than you know.

When I left my abusive marriage, my daughter was 5 and my son was 3. My son, too, showed abusive tendencies. It broke my heart enough to LEAVE.

Years later, I talked to my daughter about some of the happenings and what her memories were. I was shocked to hear her version of a specific instance when my XH was beating the crap out of me in the bathroom while the kids were asleep.

It turns out, they were not asleep at all. They heard everything. My then almost 5 year-old daughter went and got her baby brother out of his crib and held him, hiding under his crib so nothing bad would happen to either of them.

Talk about hearts breaking! I was so ashamed that it was MY DECISIONS that harmed my children this way!

You are NOT a victim. A victim is someone who doesn't have a choice. YOU HAVE A CHOICE! It is your children who are the victims.

For their sakes, please think about how your decisions are affecting them. Please think about the roles and behaviors they are learning. Surely your situation is not one you would want to choose for your children when they are grown. Is that what you want for them? It's what you are teaching them. Please offer them an alternative. Please give them a chance for something different.

ETA: I am on Patriot's computer, as mine is on the fritz. I didn't notice I was logged in under his name. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that it was not Patriot who posted this, but Frozen. Sorry for the confusion.

For what it is worth, Harley told me nearly two years ago that the way out of abuse is the POJA, and I didn't understand it then but I do understand it now. Here are notes from my telephone call of 12/9/03 with him:

"Tom is dangerous because of his pre-disposition and philosophy. He is pre-programmed to take advantage of other people…wired to be abusive. People can have a genetic predisposition that causes them to fight to win-lose. Tom doesn’t believe in win-win solutions to problems.

He can overcome this genetic pre-disposition by changing his attitude or philosophy, using a simple rule of thoughtfulness that says “I’m going to consider other people’s feelings before I do anything.” Following the POJA means a change in attitude. He hasn’t changed his basic approach to life. “I’m going to do what I want to whether you like it or not.” His attitude about football is a benign illustration of this attitude that says “People deserve to be hurt. I think I can get away with it.” His desire to watch football isn’t the issue. “It’s the way he is going about it that is abusive. “
Any effort you have to gain at someone’s expense is a form of abuse.” What Tom needs to decide is “If I want to watch TV, I’ll do something else….I’m not going to hurt anyone again.”

Harley said that there is “no hope if he (Tom) doesn’t agree to the Policy of Joint Agreement enthusiastically.” It is “simple thoughtfulness”. “If you don’t have the genetic pre-disposition to fight, POJAs are easy to implement.”

Tom is following the POJA but only because he knows I mean it, he moves out if he violates it.

It is very true that I would not wish for our children what we have, but I also still have hope that we can get to a good marriage. Harley's approach generally is to start with meeting ENs, but our marriage is so filled with LBs and indepdendent behavior that in the end where we started was with my saying he's got to move out if he doesn't follow the POJA.

That's why I'm hoping that KMEJ tries following the POJA. If you do, everything that each of you does must be positive for both.

And yes I know that many people would not make the choice I have to continue. I am not a victim, however. I am willing to end the marriage if he violates the POJA, and I am letting him know how I feel about what he does.

One major problem I have with just how bad our situation is is that very few people know about our situation, and two of them are my mother and sister who made up their mind instantly that I should throw him out. He broke my arm when I threatened to call the woman, and four months later I called her husband who got the truth out of his wife that he had been having an affair. The details are even worse -- he broke my arm 12 days after I had a hysterectomy; the ulna was broken in 7 pieces and required 3 surgeries; and the most dangerous thing he ever did wasn't that but his cracking my skull. That said, the last time he touched me to hurt me was 3/22/02 when he threw me down on my cast. He's worked hard to try to become a good husband. This forum helps me, like it helps KMEJ, because you realize that it's not all your fault. The abuse fog is that you believe you caused it. And yes I did think I was to blame for his breaking my arm because after all he did ask me not to call this woman. The month after he broke my arm I met with the anger management therapist and told him I didn't think Tom belonged in his group because he's such a nice guy. The therapist said, "If he broke your arm, he belongs in this group." The support given to me and to KMEJ helps in clearing away the abuse fog.
Cherished

Thank you very much for sharing this with us.

Lem

The way for the weaker spouse out of abuse is the next bus, surely ?

Not always. KMEJ and I didn't just happen to marry a guy who turned out to be abusive. I certainly had a belief in win-lose solutions and suspect she did too. We married men who used intimidation to get on the win side.

With the POJA, the lose side is eliminated. I think that is what is best for our children is to learn that lesson, and it would be the best solution if they learned it by seeing us learn it, a little late, admittedly.

I don't think there's anything mentally wrong with either of us. It's maturity. We never got through the teenage years of thinking that making demands means we should get our way.

Cherished

It's so strange how before adultery enters your life, you have very defined views on how you would deal with it. And then it hits and you are reeling and really clueless. Your actions are quite contrary to how you imagined they would be. Well, unfortunately, perhaps the same relates to abusive marriages. We all say "I wouldn't stand for that". It is wrong but perhaps that's what happens. Just thinking out loud. I have come to realise how hard it is to leave a marriage if you are not programmed for it. tt

Yes, that is very true.

To be honest, the affair hurt much, much worse. I look at lumps in my forehead every day and have a four inch scar on my arm, but the affair was still worse.

Cherished

TT,

I would agree with you here. When I finally realized that my M most likely wasn't going to make it, I was so anxious and disheveled that I vomitted every day for about 2 months! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> My MD upped my anti-d's, as well as prescribing me a relaxant and an anti-nausea aid.

So I very well understand that some of us aren't predisposed to leaving an abusive relationship. Yet at the same time, isn't that our problem?

I will also agree with Cherished that the pain of physical abuse does not compare to the emotional upheaval following an A. But I DO think the emotional component of abuse CAN compare. And I liken it to: If he cheated on me once....maybe even twice....I could probably stay and work it out. But if he became a serial cheater - then I need to get out. No matter WHAT my disposition.

Same thing with abuse (emotional or physical) - if it happened one or two times.....I could probably stay and work it out. But if the abuse becomes a regularity - then I need to get out. No matter WHAT my disposition.

Of course, I'm just speaking from my own experience with abuse. But (similarly to the A), we must learn to trust our head, and not our feelings. We all (who have been through infidelity) know that feelings can be very misleading.

Again, JMVHO.

KMEJ - I'm sure you can figure out what my position is on your situation.

People can change. My H has probably used physical violence against me 50 times from the summer we got married (1993) until March 22, 2002. The most serious times were cracking my skull and breaking my arm, but he also choked me several times and threw me down when I was seven months' pregnant. That's a lot of violence.

None since March 22, 2002. None.

He had to decide to change. From what KMEJ is saying, her H is still blaming her for his behavior. To me, the abuse fog is that the victim believes that something in her behavior can result in a change in his. The perpetrator believes that, too. So the focus in on the victim changing her behavior.

That is a fog. The only way abuse ends is if the abuser recognizes it's his problem and takes steps to end it.

KMEJ, he's unlikely to wake up and face that fact unless you face it first.

Cherished

Sorry Cherished....but I consider myself an expert on this issue....as I deal with it every weekend that I work on the trauma service. Yes, your abusive husband has NOT hit you in nearly three years....BUT statistics say, as well as MY OWN EXPERIENCE....you will most definitely be hit again. Your WH has not changed like you think he has.

You will be 50% responsible for your children becoming abusers or abusees.

I actually feel evry very sad for you. I cannot imagine living the life you have lived and continue to live.

There is not anything to be gained by discussing this with you becasue you undoubtedly still have the "abusees" mentality...it is just a matter of time before you get the $hit beat out of you again.

I see this, I live this.....POJA or whatever won't matter then.

This is my last post on this subject, as it is too emotionally volatile for me to talk about here.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cherished,

I will not question the physical abuse aspect of your M. I believe you are being truthful that he has not physically hurt you in the past few years.

But I do have questions about his emotional abuse. His controlling behaviors. His manipulation tactics. Where is he in each of these?

The other question I would like to ask you (just for my own personal interest) is What has changed inside himself? Just simply realizing that he was doing something 'wrong' isn't enough. I mean, a BS wouldn't stand for that excuse from their WS if they were a healthy individual. Change must come from within, right? It must come from a realization that it is a coping technique most likely drawn, mimicked, or acting out on a previous experience.

Why did I have an A? Because not only did I fall into a marital pattern similar to my parent's (controlling/subservient)....but when I did, I also lost all sense of self in my relationship. I became completely dependent on my exH for my own image of myself. So when the image was no longer even remotely good, I did not have any type of coping technique to support myself. And then when OM came along and provided emotional support....well....it was a lot easier to lean on that than to face the changes I needed to make.

But NOW, I have learned that in order to be healthy, I need to make those changes....and I am working on that.

So what exactly is it in your H that has changed? What has he realized was the catalyzing factor for his abuse?


As I was reading this....I realized I don't think I understand completely what you are saying. Could you explain how this is different in your situation? You began to POJA (the victim changing her behavior) in an attempt to make him realize that he must change his (victim's behavior changing the perpetrator's behavior).

I just don't think I am understanding it, Cherished. I'm sorry.


Could you please help explain?

Lemonman --
I saw it in the eyes of the guy at the emergency room. He knew. I had just had surgery for a hysterectomy and was dragging around a catheter bag and couldn't sit down from the pelvic floor surgery, and here I am with my husband getting an Xray for a broken arm. The guy took my H out of the room to show him the Xray. He put a blue strip of tape on my arm and then scheduled me for a hospital visit three days later for a cast. I thought that strip might mean this was a domestic violence case and took it off before I went to the hospital.

The abusee mentality, I think, is to take the blame for the abuse. I actually did, even after he broke my arm. What I wouldn't take the blame for was an affair.

LIT --
He recognizes that what he has done is wrong and that he is responsible for his actions. He thinks he rebelled against my controlling him. We had a discussion today about his watching football. He asked why I didn't have a problem with it early in our marriage and now do. I said that I no longer believe in balance or personal downtime -- everything needs to work for both. It turned out that we went to a sports bar to watch the game, and I enjoyed myself as well.

He took a job traveling Monday through Friday, so we just have two days together. We are trying to go through the Love Busters course. The lesson he learned from the abuse and the affair was that he reacted inappropriately to my control. The lesson I learned is that he called me controlling when he wanted to be inconsiderate and just do what he pleased, whether it be watching football or dating a married woman. We're going through Love Busters, and I hope that the program helps us to agree on how we want to be in the future.

MB helps me because I simply don't tell other parents of students at our small Catholic school that -- gee, my H broke my arm (see the scar) and had an affair and...

This has become something of a threadjack from KMEJ, but I would say that I was helped quite a lot by being on MB, even though Pep at one point said she stopped posting. It's almost like brainwashing. I look back and think -- what was I doing? how was it I hid a broken arm? It's like a house of mirrors or something. You hide because you think you're to blame and you are told you're to blame by the one person who knows what is going on and you're doing your best to keep your marriage together and change so that the abuse stops. The MB board is a way for KMEJ to consistently be told that the abuse is not her fault.

KMEJ, the abuse is not your fault, and there is nothing -- nothing -- you can do to stop it. It's all up to your husband.

Cherished