Hey Shaden,
I need to talk ...but unfortunately I have to go now and get ready for work and will not be back on here till maybe this afternoon. 12:30 ish central time???? maybe if not then, 9 pm my time. I am WORSE than on auto pilot. Hope I can sound off to you later and get some ideas or support then? do you mind? GTG now.

Bump for Oyabun

Hey Shaden...hope all is well in the tundra

Mr. W

Hi Mr. W

Things are "ok" here in winterland.

My W and I went to MC last night... separate sessions... for the first time in a couple of months. Most of my session was spent updating what has gone on.

My W started talking about her past and I believe the MC is going to spend some time working with her to search her feelings from her past. I used to be a skeptic about shrinks linking everything to their childhood, but the more I've read, and the history and patterns that have been evident from my W's past, I am now starting to be a believer that this was a huge component in what has happened.

My W now is seeing the need for this and is serious about looking deep. The hard part for me is the loss of control... it really is hard to "surrender". I would almost my W tell me she had the A because I did "X"... so that I can fix it... but most of what this is about is not about me. This means that all I can do is wait, support, have faith... and at the other end, hopefully there will be a strong relationship waiting to happen.

I was upset about some of these realizations last night, also I was angry because she was talking about her anger over me exposing. Mostly she is angry about me telling 3 of the ladies at my work (2 of which she used to work with), and this was more for my own support than to break the A. She is angry about me telling OMW... still feels that it was the duty of OM, not me, and that I betrayed her in this.
At first I was angry that she was comparing what she had done to what I did... and then it started to sink in...

Her A is not one big sin (all sin is apparently equal)... it is a series of actions of betrayal starting with talking inappropriately about feelings of your spouse and marriage to another person. Well, that is exactly what I did when I told the ladies at work, and continued to share with them how I was feeling and what my W was saying or doing.
My actions did not end in any kind of A (physical or emotional), but I still betrayed the trust and reputation of the one that I love most... in the same fashion that she did to me (atleast at the beginning of her A).

I justified it by saying that I was falling apart and needed support that she wasn't giving me... again, isn't that the same justification a WS gives... they have an emotional need that the spouse is not giving, so it is ok???!!!

I didn't intend to hurt my W when I told them (although getting some sympathy at the expense of my W did feel good at the time)... but I also believe my W did not intend to hurt me with her A... it was a selfish act to receive attention and emotional support when it was needed... just like my actions.

I had a rough evening last night as I realized that I betrayed my W similarly to how she betrayed me. No, it didn't turn physical, but is that really the worst part??? It stings the most, but the emotional bond and connection is probably more dangerous.

While she is digging into her past, I also need to search for strength of character... to figure out why I "needed" to tell these ladies and break my promises to my W. Even though I can't "fix" my W's situation, I have a lot of work to do on myself.

I withheld from exposing to my W at first because I was afraid that doing so would be a betrayal to her. Yes, the exposure seemed to have broken the spell, but I cannot say that, in time, and maybe with faith, that spell would not have been broken anyway. I committed an act of betrayal for my own purposes by exposing... which has hurt my W. Maybe, by not exposing, I would have been sacrificing my own happiness and future M... but isn't that what we say to WS? We say that it doesn't matter if you are unhappy in your M... that the selfish act of an A is never the answer. I do agree that an A is never an answer... but maybe neither was the exposure in this circumstances. The A was over, my W was maintaining NC... and yet I still exposed and betrayed.

Maybe there is something I am missing in this rationalization, but right now, I feel like I have failed.

Shaden

IMHO.... We go through stages of blamimg our selves for what has happened or for what is NOW happening. You are taking blame for something and feeling guilty, yet it was a necesary evil.... exposure is a must , one way or another. You did what you felt you had to do... and I feel it was the righ thing to do. Despite your W's anger. Having the whole thing out in the open is very embarrassing to the WS's and they would love for the whole thing to be brushed under the rug. In their fog they do not always act on what is best or what would help us BS's.... They don't want to deal with confrontation or the uglieness.
If OM didn't reveal to his W what happened then there was still a HUGE risk of the lies continuing and for the ugly possibilty of your W and OM having a "slip up" .

Please, do NOT feel guilt or remorse over your actions! It expedited the recovery and all the players in this drama are now doing what needs to be done.....
Like the A, it happened, it's over and done. You can not change what you did. It is time to move on and let this sitch go into the casket with the A. Soon, you'll be able to burry it in a 12 ft, unmarked grave. Your wife needs to let this go and stop making an issue of it. It happened, choose to focus on the now and what needs to be done to move forward. There are certainly more important issues that need to be addressed and focused on.

One thing I am trying to remember myself through these crazy days is to choose my battles and stay focussed on what is important and positive.

I hope I have been helpful?

Be well,

Hi Harmonie,

Actually my W hasn't been talking about her anger over the exposure very much... it was brought up yesterday in general discussion over our talks with the MC. She wasn't and hasn't tried to rehash that anger... it is still there, just like my anger over the A... but it hasn't been a topic or issue.

I made it into an issue when I started to think about it more. She said the words that I "betrayed" her and didn't protect her. At first, I was just angry that she would even compare the two... but when I started to rationalize and put things into perspective with my beliefs, I saw what had happened.

First, I have always believed that all sin are equal... they just have differing consequences. So was her betrayal worse than mine... no... just possibly had bigger consequences.

At first, when I found out, I promised to protect her and stand by her while we went through this... well everytime there was a sign of trouble, I went running for support. I didn't have the strength to stand by her... whether it would have worked out or not, I need to know that my own integrity is there... my actions whether they are retaliatory, justified as helping, or whatever... if it is still wrong, it is wrong. Maybe I am too black and white in my thinking. I believe that the consequences over all of what I did are less... in that it affects less people... but it hugely affects my W. Just because she hurt me does not give me the right to hurt her.

Yes, I could say that I was helping her... and maybe that is the truth that I am still not seeing... but I manipulated the situation for my own needs rather than wait it out and have faith. I do have a tendency to be very hard on myself and look at what I have done wrong in all situations... which makes the lack of control over my W's recovery very difficult and frustrating.

Also, I am not regretting or condemning any of the advice I was given to expose. Based upon their own knowledge, experience, beliefs, etc., all the people here told me to do what they felt was right in the situation... and maybe it was right. But it was still me who made the final decision.

Shaden

When my W picked me up from work yesterday, I was met with a card from her... the first I've received spontaneously in a very long time. she said in it that, although she still feels anger for my exposing, she understands I did the best I could with dealing with all that she had put me through, it said that she believes I have a lot of strength, but some things can't be accomplished on our strength alone, she apologized again for how she has hurt me, and she thanked me for being willing to walk the next part of our journey with her.

She went out for coffee last night with our friend, the pastor, who has also had counselling training. I think it was very positive for both of us. My W may want to switch to her over our own MC. We talked for a while after and for the first time, my W let me show her a little of what is on the MB website.

The downward rolls will keep coming, but they seem to be less severe now. I do get concerned when I read about so many BS's hitting a wall of anger or resentment at around 6 months... I just want the momentum to keep improving, but I realize it doesn't always work that way.

Shaden

I look back at my last post about 3 weeks ago on this thread and I said that I was concerned about running into a wall of anger/resentment.

Well it has happened. Am I just looking for it or feeling that I'm owed it?... or is this normal. It is 5 1/2 months since DDay (a little before the regular 6 month mark). Everyday life is going fairly well. My W is going to IC... we have put a hold on MC until she can deal with some of her past issues. Her depression seems less as a lot of stress has been taken off of her. She isn't working right now, so I am worried about finances for the new year... but she is looking. We aren't talking a lot about the A as I don't want to keep rehashing it and making her feel like I am holding onto it... but I am struggling lately with feelings of resentment.

I resent the whole theory that I was too much of a "good guy" and she wanted excitement... so what do I do... become someone I'm not or live with the probability of this happening again.

I resent my own weakness... when I am around her I still melt, but then I hate myself for always giving and then feeling rejected.

I resent that I don't feel "safe" sharing my negative feelings with her... that it triggers her depression and I feel responsible... and then I resent myself for feeling responsible because I'm not.

I resent the fact that Christmas (generally my favorite time) feels so different and sad... that I just don't seem to care this year about it.

I resent the fact that I feel like I can never do enough for her. The OM promised her a cruise...which of course didn't happen (he's taking his W instead... very good of him)... but my W, innocently, has mentioned several times how she wants to go on a cruise... with me... but I can't afford it right now. OM can afford it.

OM said he felt my W was just in love with the thoughts of the money, the cruises, the idea of not having to work. My W was very hurt by this, but I'm feeling there is some truth to it. As I said, my W is not working right now... and she is enjoying that very much (especially right now with all the extra involved with preparing for Christmas). I wish we could afford for her to choose to not work, but we can't afford it... atleast not at our present lifestyle, which she does not want to change (neither do I). Again, the OM could afford this, but I can't. I have a fairly well paid job (it would be atleast double, though, if it was in the private sector, rather than for a charitable oranization), but our debt means I am always feeling like I am not doing enough to provide for her wants. I resent the fact that I still need to try and make her happy... although I know I can't... and I resent the fact that I will never be able to "make" her happy.

I resent the fact that I have a wife who does not seem to be attracted to or respect me... even though many other women have said I am "attractive" (generally using more manly terms). This probably sounds like our R is terrible... and it isn't... I just don't feel like her Knight... just her husband and father of her kids, so the right thing is to "tolerate" me. Don't get me wrong... she is not nasty or doesn't put me down... I just am not made to feel special and haven't in a very long time. I guess my expectations of a good marriage are way off base... or my needs are unrealistic.

I resent being married and loving her as much as I do while not having the "feel good, fairytale" marriage. I know this probably sounds childish and idealistic, but my ideals of the possibilities of a good marriage have been shattered. I feel "love" (maybe it's just my own addiction and need), and sometimes I wish I didn't. I feel like I want to hate her for what she has done, but I don't or can't. Again, I resent my weakness... and fear. If I wasn't so weak and afraid, I could risk getting angry more often and releasing this frustration. But, it is also pride... she said she didn't feel like I would ever get over what happened... and maybe I am trying too hard to show that I can.

I'm not sure that much of this has made any sense... I just hoped that writing it down would help me sort out my feelings.

I don't want to ruin my Christmas with these negative feelings. I told her this morning, when she asked what was wrong, that I was feeling sad... about my whole life. We didn't have time to finish talking, and I wasn't sure how much I wanted to say, but atleast she seemed receptive to hearing me.

Shaden

Shaden,

Excellent post. I would strongly suggest that you take this list written exactly as you have posted in and discuss it with your W. NOT for her to fix things, not for there to be some action items but simply so she knows what you are struggling with. It would probably be best if you did this with a counselor present, perhaps your minister.

There is a famous quote (or at least I am doing my best to make if famous <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> that WhoDat a poster here years ago had in his signature line.)
Your resentments are well founded, well articulated, and need to be "heard". I suspect that the process of your W hearing these resentments will help you alot.

As for the anger, you are on schedule and actually it very likely means your marriage is healing and you feel safe enough to stop and allow your emotions and feelings to react to blow they have taken. It is the "fight or flight" response delayed.

Shaden, you are doing better than you realize. I would strongly urge you to either express to your W what you feel or write her a letter stating you don't necessarily need action from her, but you do need to hear how you are feeling. If she wants to discuss these things then you would like to, if she wants to not respond that is her choice.

But, at least you will have been "heard" by her if not understood.

What do you think?

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, JL

Generally I can reason and talk my way out of my negative feelings. I normally can focus on the progress we have made and the fact that one important part of this "challenge" is for me to grow into a stronger, better person.

I am determined to show that I can get past this and forgive, but I am afraid that I am going to cause more damage to myself by not expressing more of the hurt. I did earlier on, but I decided that at some point I needed to stop re-hashing, and start letting her see that I can move past. Maybe I am just not ready. But I agree that it will help if I can discuss these feelings with her.

Shaden

Six months is right on schedule for the first resentment phase in this stuff. And JL is right, as usual, it does not arrive on schedule if things are not progressing in some manner.

Just so you know what to expect, there will be echoes of anger around every six months or so for several years.

With prayers,

Aye, this angry time frame is normal...and just like a lot of the things that you've heard, it will pass too. As you and your wife continue to heal, you'll feel it less and less.

Reality is that you're just now reaching a point where you can actually start to see your own feelings for a change. For most of the time, you're fighting to save your marriage...and then once you're out of that 'crisis mode'...it all starts catching up to you.

And the even more wonderful thing is that shortly after this phase ends, you'll get to the one year mark and you'll have triggers all over again because of the 'anniversaries' of the affair.

I think that THIS is why they say it takes about two years to recover from an affair. Things settle down quite a bit after that...remember, I'm at about 18 months out from d-day myself now.

I too struggled with being able to tell my wife how I was feeling about things...for the same reasons. It just made her feel worse about things, and didn't seem to help either of us.

Personally, I recommend that you start seeing an IC to help you deal with this...we continued our MC for over a year past d-day, and in the timeframe you're at, a lot of our sessions were centered around helping me/us deal with this same kind of issue.

Just hang in there friend...DO express to your wife your need to be able to talk with her HONESTLY about what you're feeling. Perhaps find a way to limit your talks timewise so that she doesn't feel like it's all a beat up session on her...but maybe a couple nites a week you two have a sit down conversation for a half hour or so to 'clear the air' between the two of you?

I was thinking that things were going along fairly well considering, and then out of nowhere this prolonged resentment hit. I was afraid of what it meant, but it's encouraging to see that this is normal and that things can still be ok. Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

To make the feelings today worse, OMW and OM just stopped by my work to return the book "Torn Asunder" that I gave to OMW when I exposed. She also had a card in the book for me. This is the first time I have spoken with them since she last came to my work and "came on" to me.

I went and spoke to OM... warned him that my W and I may go to our church on Christmas Eve for the candlelight service. We have only been there on Thanksgiving since this started. OM was afraid of a scene, but OMW assured me there wouldn't be a scene... she wanted me to be able to go for that special day if I wanted. This will probably be a mistake, but both of our families will all be there.

Shaden

Shaden,
I had been wondering how you have been. I hope and pray that your wife will hear you and allow you your anger and pain.

Things between h and I are really going so well now. I can't help but notice the wonderful responses you are getting from these guys. I just wanted you to know that in my book...any man willing to accept his ww back is worthy of respect. It is definitly not a weakness...phewww you have been through alot!!!It is obvious love, strength and character.

I pray that your circumstances continue to bring out your strengths and that your wife will be content with her life(as in regards to the work sitch).

remember you are not the consolation prize...you just like my h could have said forget it at any time.
I hope you can find encouragement through the rough spots. You have been unbelievable in your efforts. If you need to vent to this fww so you don't LB your wife...hammer away!! Hang in there.

Did you say you were a PK? I am a Pk as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Do you call yourselves that in Canada??
God Bless,
Brandi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Brandi,

As I've said before, it really means alot to hear encouragement from you. Almost since day 1, I have thought of WS with sympathy... I'm not one of the BS that feels all WS are evil. I don't hate OM and can talk to him civilly and even care about whether or not he recovers with his W and family. I believe that given the right situation, the potential for an A can happen with anyone. Maybe I was also ripe, but without the same opportunity (My W is gorgeous, IMHO, and could easily attract the attention of many men)... I'll hopefully never know. Brandi, I have read in all of your posts, a very clear understanding and a strong sense of remorse for what happened in your M. You are an awesome person to have the strength and courage to speak up on a forum like this when so many would be willing to bash you.

It's good to hear that you and your H are doing well. This is such a hard thing on both spouses. I also believe the WS has as much pain (although different) to work through as a BS.

I tell myself what you said about not being a consolation prize, but I still don't fully believe it. The OM ended the A, and 5 years ago, when my W had an EA, the OM left town and ended it then as well. I don't know where things would be if OM didn't end it in both situations. It is hard to believe how the tables have turned after my W chased me for so long in our youth before I would even consider dating her.

Thanks for the offer to vent on you, but I don't need to. The encouragement from you and the others helps to turn my thoughts again to positive with a renewed belief that I can get through this. Besides, calling you all sorts of nasty, nasty names really ain't gonna help me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...maybe send a picture on a dartboard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe the resentment is just that, after months of just giving, my taker is screaming to get out. I need to get some balance. I plan to share some of my feelings with my W... I think she is ok to hear them.

OK... I guess we don't call it that in Canada, because I have no clue what a PK is? d'ya mind elaborating?

Shaden

Shaden,

Happy to see you back and actually glad to see you out of panic mode and at the beginning of processing your feelings on this.

I have seen quite a few posters over my 9 months here discussing their insecurities over seemingly being 2nd choice. Also, my wife's OM broke things off with my wife as well. On the day he dumped her and told her to work things out with me she was willing to do anything, including leaving me and abandoning our DD6 that day, to get him to continue in the affair. Fortunately, he declined and we proceeded to recover.

I do not feel like I am 2nd choice to OM or anyone and neither should you. Just as it is impossible to truly "make" your wife happy...it is impossible for your wife to make you feel secure in this area. If you relied on her for your confidence or look to her to rebuild it then that would be a mistake. Sure we got our worlds rattled and what once was white became black for quite some time BUT ultimately your confidence level is one of those things only in your control. I am and you are FIRST choice in God's eyes. We were God's perfect choice for our wives and they for us. Our FWW's battled God's plan but God prevailed. Do not allow those demons to seep into your brain and consume you with insecure thoughts of being second best. We are good men and you already listed before many reasons why and I am sure there are a thousand more. OM could never compare to the man you are today.

As far as the money thing goes. The POJA principle works really well. I like the example in SAA. Where the husband travels a lot for work and the "neglected" wife has an affair. If you remember, he changes jobs internally with his company to be at home but ends up making less money. Well later in recovery they POJA him going back to the traveling position to make more money so they can maintain there lifestyle only now WW is onboard and enthusiastic about it. How do I believe this relates to you???? You indicated you could make more $$$ in the private sector but you love your current position though less money. You probably get more perks and are allowed more leeway in your hours as a little tradeoff to the reduced pay. You could discuss with your wife leaving your position for a higher paying job in the private sector. She will likely come to see the perks and your happiness in the position as more important than the money and then get on board with the having to do with a little less money thing because SHE agreed and had input with the decision.

Just a thought.

Mr. Wondering

Hey Shaden,

Didn't you say once that your parent(s) were ministers? We call them PK's.

Preacher kids/pastor kids.

I was one growing up but my dear father passed on unexpectedly...Boy I sure needed him around the past few years.

Take care,
Brandi

Brandi... they probably do call it that here in Canada. I was always referred to as an OK... Officer's Kid, because my parents are ministers (officers) in The Salvation Army. That's why I didn't recognize the term. Support from parents has been a great help... and my Dad's specialty is in social work, dealing with addictions, so he was able to give some advice and insight on destructive behavior.

Mr. Wondering

Fortunately, I don't think often about the thought of being 2nd choice... it's not consuming me. Again, intellectually, I know you are correct, but emotionally it still hits me sometimes. I'll get there. When I saw OM today, I didn't feel much emotion... when my W asked me about it, the only answer I could think of was that he no longer intimidates me... he is the one who must feel awkward.

As to the work idea... it is excellent. I've thought recently of switching jobs, also because my staff in the office know about my situation and I feel my credibility took a hit (I was useless at work for a couple of months)... but I've been with the company since working part time in highschool. A change for me would be difficult, but maybe something worth thinking about. My W does want to work, but wants to go back to school first for something in the medical field. I have supported this and any other career idea she has had, but it will be a huge strain financially while she does this. Meanwhile, as she is looking for a job, though, she is being extremely picky as her last job was a disastrous experience and probably a huge factor leading to her A (from the stress and other related problems). But these discussions should be had with her to decide together what is going to work for us.

Thanks for the advice.

Shaden

Shaden,

When you saw him did he avert his eyes downward?

A sure sign of his insecurity around you!!!!

If not, I say he is faking it. You will notice it in his posture a he battles to make himself appear like everything is a Okay with him.

BTW, what did the card from OMW say?

Mr. W

Mr. Wondering

OM seemed uncomfortable. He was sitting in his car behind the wheel and I was talking to him from the passenger side. He didn't keep eye contact, but it could have been the awkward angle we were at... OMW was standing outside the car, so I was talking to both.

When I asked how things were going with them... she said they were going well, but he looked a lot more unsure. When I told my W, she thought that OMW was probably being very hard on him so he wouldn't find things going well...for him. My W did say she rarely has sympathy for him... she sees him "playing a role" and deceiving his W just like he deceived her. The last thing he said to her when he broke it off with my W was something like... "I've been faking it for over 20 years, I can do what I've always been doing."

The card said a few things... that she wishes she could still talk to me because no one else understands what she's going through.
...she still drives by our house sometimes and wishes I would see her and call her.
...she knows my W made a list of qualities she thought I didn't possess that her H had... but she could easily take a similar, but opposite list and say the same thing about me...that I have a lot of qualities she admires that her H doesn't have.
...I am a handsome, caring, loving, man of integrity and a great father and husband.
...she is praying for us
...she left her cell phone for me to call her if I wanted to talk... she said "no funny business" (like the last time she came to see me)
...sometimes wants me to join her for a drive and she would open a bottle of champagne and we can celebrate our "wonderful life". (She is very anti-drinking).

there were some other things, but this was the main message. I let my W read it and then I tore it up. She wasn't really impressed with what the card said... asked me how I felt about what she was saying to me. I said that it's nice to be complimented, but judging from where her emotions and mind is, the compliments don't mean very much. I reminded my W that she is only about 5-6 weeks past Dday. I tried remembering how I was at that point. She said that you can't compare her and I...she is a lot more emotional and unstable than I was. (I thought I was pretty unstable).

Shaden

Hi Shaden, Glad I checked your thread! The thing that should tell me if there is a new post on fave threads is apparently not alerting me.

Things that everyone here say about the feelings your having now are right on the $. Strange how common or typical this is.

I really admire how insightful you are to what is going on and how well your are able to communicate it and understand.
I agree with JL about expressing this to your W. I do this with H when I can screw up the courage. Our Spouses need to know and understand what we are dealing with from time to time. And like JL said, they can respond or not. But getting it out there is important. Being able to do this IS a big part of recovery.
I always am affraid that it will be percieved as an LB when I try to tell H my hurt feelings, anger, or fears.

Reading this helps me to make sense of things I go through too. I have been getting signals from my "taker", getting tired of giving and giving and feeling like I am only being thrown crumbs of H's choosing, rather than H trying to fulfill the needs I have asked for from him.

As for OMW.... wow! She seems really messed up and in revenge mode. I really hope she dosn't stir things up at Church on Christmas. Yikes.

Hang in there and try to enjoy the season! I empathise with the feelings you have about being in the spirit this year. I still have not put up one single decoration and still have the kids' Thanksgiving drawings from school up!
Emotionally I think I am a month behind the rest of the world!

Be well,