Believe me it breaks my heart too. Of course I love her and want to help. Of course we know that getting her away from the Alien is the answer that she can not see right now. We have talked with council. Steve Harley and a local. Unfortunitly the council she talked to was not a pro-marriage council and said to her and I quote: "i'm surprised it took this long before you had an affair".
If she would agree to saving our marriage, then i will require all of us to go to council.
Yes, she is on a steady course for rock bottom and the pain is becoming more than she can make go away. Even the Alien must not be able to make it all better now. Yes, she is still being the victim. Until that changes and she takes responsiblity there is no hope.
Yes, I know I have to show her the way and rules on how to get back to the women she was. Then if she is willing to meet me half way, we can walk the rest together.
Thanks every one, and I ask for prayers for my family. I have felt like there is a knife in my stomach all day. I so very much don't want to file for a divorce, but I think its the right thing. It just feels wrong.

after my first post, which i obvioulsy posted way too hastily, i read about all that. that is why i posted the second response.

i had this said to me too, along with "I don't think your H loves you". and we paid for that "help".

DKS, i am so very sorry for your pain and the situation you and your DD are in. i have put you down specifically on my prayer list.

FL- Thank you and god bless you! I paid money for that "help" my WW recieved too. Its really sad when two people that love each other, are suppose to be together for ever have this happen. Proof that Satin is at every door and its our job to keep him out.

Here is my response to WW's message-
WW-
I too can't believe what has happened between us either. It all sounds like something off of a tv show, not between three people that love each other.
I too feel sick and just thinking about it hurts so bad. I too feel crushed and there is a whole in my heart and sole missing you and our family.
I agree that the WW I once new is gone. I pray everyday for the women that was so full of life and love to return inside you.
Yes, I can help but you. Why? Because I love you and care about you...
HOW? -there is a way that leads to happiness for all of us. That answer is ending everything with him forever, and coming home to save our family is it...You take the first step, we will take the rest together... All the other options come with pain and hurt for all three of us.

Update:
From the last time I posted my plan got off track again.
I learned Friday that WW made arrangements to give our niece back up to her drunken grandmother. WW lied about signing off on guardianship papers. The truth came out on WW signing off on papers Monday. WW contacted drunken grandma and made arrangements for her to pick up Niece12's belongings over the week end.
Last Friday WW came home to visit DD12 that was out of school due conferences. WW decided to clean the house a little and bring in the mail. My lawyer mailed me a confirmation letter and reciept of my retainer deposit for divorce services. This was all just minutes before I was to meet with the lawyer to sign the deal. WW was visibly shaken and asked me if my plan was to keep DD12 from her. She also said she thought I wanted to stay married and this was a ****** of way to show by hiring the toughest lawyer in the area. With tears running down her face she darted for her car and drove off. At this point I missed the appointment with the lawyer. WW came directly home after work wanting to talk. She said she understands why i contacted a lawyer and she can not be my wife and his girl friend. She aske me for 2 or 3 days to figure out what to do. She said she loves me and really wants to come home. With tears streaming she wanted me to hold her as she cried and appologized for everything she has done. She said over and over it was all her fault. I asked her to spend the week end at our home to do this so called thinking. She said she had plans to stay at another womens house to avoid OM and me. She would not tell me where or give me a number. I believe if she was at the friends house he was there too. His truck was not at his or his parents house all night long. Neither of there vehicles was at any local hotels. Me and DD12 went to KC to celebrate my birthday Saturday and stayed until Sunday night. WW made no attempt to contact us. Because WW was hiding all week end, I had to contact drunken grandmother and tell her she could not come get anything until Monday afternoon.
WW showed up Sunday night around 7:30. I asked how the week end of isolation went. I got no reply for about 30 seconds, then she said well I came by to see you and no one was around. I said well that is funny. I left a notebook sized piece of paper taped to the door that asked you to call my cell if you came home. She said nothing for awhile.
I asked if she had actually figured anything new out. She said I don't know. She acted very withdrawn from me and tried to tell me something and stopped herself twice. Then looked at me for a minute or two and started to cry. She asked if I would go get my retainer payment back from the lawyer. I asked do I still need a lawyer. She said she didn't know. I asked her what she would do in my shoes. I said you could not have been surprised by me hiring a divorce attourney are you? she said no. DD12 asked her if she was staying. She did not answer. DD12 went back upstairs disappointed. WW started cring again. She asked me if it was just that simple. She get her things, come home, stop it with him, and we start over. I said yes. That is the first step you take, we take the rest together. She set on the couch with me for awhile longer. She appeared to be mentally flipping from wanting me to hold her to her going cold and with drawn. Almost a splitting of herself. She looked so in pain. I tried to hug her and she bolted to the door and left.
Monday-My birthday.
WW sister emailed WW asking if she could come over and cook me dinner for my birthday. he he.. WW was very poed about that and told her she was not aloud in our house. I stayed at home with my sick DD12 the entire day. In the afternoon WW sent me flowers with a card that says she loves me. Niece12 was to be picked up from school for the last time Monday. Niece12 not wanting to go back home with DG had called her biomom which has not guardian rights left and set up an escape plan. Niece12 and her biomom left from school before I could get there. So I had to mediate between DG, biomom on the run, my mother, and WW. WW shows up directly after work. She was acting nervous and not really wanting to be there and withdrawn from me. I told her she needed to work out this situation with niece12 before she ran and hid. She seemed like she could bolt any momemt, so I decided to tell DD12 and her friend that I woudl go get them food to eat. This would buy me some time to work on a plan to get niece12 back before police found biomom and took them all to jail. I returned with the food and told DD12 to stay in the house even if mommy wants you to leave with her. I thin told WW that I was leaving and she had to stay with the kids. This way she was present and accounted for at home if and when people started calling looking for niece12. The kept WW in the center of her mess and forced her to deal with a lot of upset people that she poed by signing off guardianship back to DG with out telling any of us. We finally got biomom to drop off niece12 around 10:30pm, only minutes away from the police issuing an APB on her with DG wishing to press charges. WW was hiding in the corner of the living room with I asked biomom to come in and bring in niece. I took niece upstairs to what was her room and talked to her for awhile tring to ease her pain. Then went back down stairs to get WW to tell me and biomom what she had done. WW reluctantly agreed to meet and talk as a group but she did. Biomom has finally now decided to obtain rights of her kid back, which is great. She claims to now be meeting the court requirements to do this. WW appologized to all of us for her actions and ruining everything for niece and letting us all down. We talked for several hours and peacefully ended the crisis by biomom agreeing to take niece back to DG until she could get before the court and obtain her child the correct way. All of which is now in motion. However, at that time WW still did not addmit to signing off on guardianship. We learned this Monday when DG shown biomom a copy when she dropped of niece12. Hopefully my sister the biomom can really pull her head out and go to court and get her child back. So long story short, WW really backed herself respectfully out of that deal. After everyone left the house, WW again appologized telling me i deserve better than her, and how could I still love someone as bad as her. WW told DD12 she would stay the night and help her with her hair in the morning. WW told me she was going to go get her over night things and come right back. She called with in the hour saying now she would be over in the morning.
Tuesday- She called me early saying her car tire was flat and could not make it. She began to cry saying why did she ever leave. I said why did you ever leave. Maybe this is your sign... OM the hero had no idea's on how to help her with her car other than call someone to fix it. I guess to show up OM, I told WW I would take her over my air tank for her to air up her own damn tire as long as moved it off the losers drive way. I droped the air tank off, watched her fill the tire and she drove it to work. She called me from her work very surprised that I was willing to help her. I asked what was wrong with hero. She said nothing other than she was going to have to call a tire shop. Yeah, I laughed and asked why he couldn't even change it for you. Knowing the damn well I was the only one that has the special tool that fits the locking lugs to the car. Yeah, you all are going to say why did you help at all I'm sure. So, I told WW I would even come over to your work on my lunch break and I bet I could pull out a nail or screw and fix it with out taking it off the car and be done in five minutes. I went out on my break and did just that. WW was very impressed and came right over after work. WW, DD12 and I watched tv for a couple hours. I got us all dinner. We played around and talked like old times. Later when DD12 to bed, WW confessed she did not want a divorce but is so overwelmed with guilt that she can't look at me or herself anymore. She said she feels so aweful and has hurt me so bad that how could she come home and we ever work again. She asked how could i ever forgive her for this. I held her that I still loved her and we can make it through this. We needed to trust and believe in each other and she needed to take that step towards us now. Then I would be with her the rest of the way. She cried and went limp in my arms. She looked so bad. She looked like she has not slept for days and so full of pain. I told her she had to stop this pain, we have to move off center here. It is simple. End it with him forever, and come home to give our family a chance. Let's just take small steps to heal this. It all starts by coming home. She said she knows, but she just can't tonight. She left around 12.
I'm sure Mortarman, JL and Mrs. W will probably kick me for prolonging this but, I'm not sure if she will respond positively towards my filing for a divorce. I know with her out of house, my plan A stuff is just making me out to an idiot. So I think plan B straight up and if she gets violent or vendictive, file the papers for protection.

Cake eating and making "waffles".

That is what she's doing.

And she's getting reassurance from you that you will want her back.

Honestly, I think she is one of those women who feeds of hysteria or something...

I think she loves being the "one in the middle torn between 2 lovers"...I think she is loving this drama. She goes to your home...you wine her dineher and give your promise to love her and heal your family..trying to win her back by fixing her tire.

And then she goes back to OM at night sleeping with the [email]b@stard...and[/email] he does all he can in the sack and when he's with her to keep her there.

She is getting BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

I say just buy the girl an cake and let her eat it in front of you!

What a woman she has become!

She is acting my friend. My xh was a genius at this stuff...he'd do same thing...I swear Peach I am coming home...give me some time to sort my feelings out.

I am angered and shocked she would sign off her neice to a drunk...she is sick! And I am angered and shocked above all that this woman would LIE TO HER OWN DARLING DAUGHTER...he daughter was looking forward to the mom/daughter bonding...she wanted her mom to help her fix her hair in the morning.

And where was mom? Mom abandoned the daughter again. Daughter must be crushed.

This woman deserves to be ALLOWED TO HIT BOTTOM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER OK?

I am getting angrier at this serial cheater and taker!

B and D time baby.

She is trying to make her mind up? Gimme a break! She is eating a chocolate cake with buttercream icing!

If it were me, I would "serve" cakewoman with some papers...and beside the papers on front door I would have a cake with her name written on it...I'd have PBL with it...saying you can have your cake now honey...but you either eat it with OM or with ME...no more cake eating with both of us!

What are you waiting for?

In His arms.

MM, or anyone else:

You are a well respected member here, so perhaps you can answer my question. Can you please tell me what constitutes being a "doormat"? I am struggling with that concept again, and before I comment further on this thread, I would like to hear your interpretation on this.

When does "fighting" for the marriage blend with being a "doormat". Being a "doormat" is almost never admitted to on this board, but even a simpleton like me has to question when this line is crossed.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

LM

I would file the papers, with a restraining order (complete with pictures) as soon as possible. Your wife sounds a bit unbalanced. Next she may drum up false charges against you, and put YOU out of the house.

And believe me, it is easy to do. I went to court to keep WH out. I filled out papers, and went before the judge. It took less than 30 minutes. The judge said he couldn't give me a restraining order, because WH was not threatening or violent. Then he asked me if I wanted to redo the papers.

Had I wanted to lie, that would have been it for WH. I would have had a restraining order until we went to court.

Hey Lemonman...

The doormat? A VERY fine line. Much of the difference has to do with intent. Let me give two examples...

First, you are in Plan A, and wife calls complaining that she doesnt have enough money for groceries. She is working a low paying job, has moved out on you and the kids. She wants money or groceries from you. So, you buy groceries this week for her, and enough for when the kids go to visit her. Good Plan A stuff, right? okay, but then she calls back two weeks from now and needs help again. And you do it again. even though she is still gone and still banging the OM. YOU HAVE NOW BECOME A DOORMAT!

second one....same situation. And you dont give her money, you buy the groceries. Two weeks later? She comes to you asking for more. This time, you put conditions down. "Honey, I would love to help. You know that. I have already helped once before. But you are going to have to end things with the OM before I can help with groceries any further." This is NT being a doormat. I have shown her love and met a need by the first groceries. So, she knows what things could be like. But I also have drawn a line (boundaries) by not being a doormat and being walked all over when I told her I would not help her again unless OM is gone. Plan A isnt being a doormat...it is about ending the affair.

Thus, I get back to intent. If you do something in Plan A and the intent is to just meet a need, then you are headed for doormat-status. If you do so but have a plan, such as the one I just showed, then you are doing the things to show your WS what things would be like if they came home, you met a need...but also showed you had a spine and would not be walked all over.

This is an actual example. I did this with my wife.

Hope those examples spell it out.

In His arms.

Well, thanks for the thoughts. I do understand your point, but I worry that many posters (including the one who's thread this is) rationalize the "intent" portion and just get caught up in meeting needs.....We always talk about "meeting needs" in Plan A, but as has always been my issue with Plan A, is many times, the BS HERE looses sight of that "fine line" you speak of.

I don't think there is anything more repugnant and more of a "turnoff" to a WS than a BS acting as a "doormat". I think bringing up this point with you is a much needed "alert" to some people on this forum.

I am of the school of thought, that nothing a Betrayed Spouse can do could be worse (for their self esteem, integrity, self respect...AND MARRIAGE), than being a doormat. I used to liken the "Plan A" and "Doormat" as being one in the same...I have since changed my view on this.....I still worry that many though "still don't get it".....they need excellent examples like you gave above.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

By letting your wife cakeeat like this, it is clear that you are not interested in doing the best thing for your daughter and your M . Appeasement in your case is not what is needed. She needs a serious wake up call. And you, my friend, are doing everything in your power to avoid this. In fact, you are doing everything in your power to undermine any chance for your M to survive.

Dazed, please wake up and help your wife--by letting her hit bottom.

dazednconfusedks,

I'm just back here after 4 years away... I've read this WHOLE post and I'm so sorry you and your D have to go though this...
I just wanted to add my 2 cents...
First off, my hats off to you for your hard work in saving your marriage...for the most part I think you're doing a good job... I must ask... how long have you been in Plan "A" ?
I think Harley suggests a 6 month period minimum for Plan "A" and THAT is with NO love busters...etc... or you start again...
If I remember correctly.. it is to fill the needs that the OM CAN NOT fill... and only that... thus.. the fine line between "doormat" and A true Plan "A'er"

It is meant to replace lost love in your lovebank...
The only things I see that you're doing wrong and I would qualify as a LB is:
1.) Telling her of YOUR pain...(Hence her guilt trip attitude) no offence....A little too much like begging.

I think you'd do better and illustrate the "New improved you" better.... if you highlight the things YOU did wrong and show her that you understand what gave her the fertile ground to have an affair with OM and remind her that when things were "good" between you and you were filling ALL OF HER NEEDS OM couldn't have even turned her head and that in that respect.. you failed your marriage and want to change those things...

2.) Telling her that she is losing her D.... I think a BIG LB... first off... you wouldn't want her to stay with you ONLY for your D...so it really should be left up to what your D says to her.... otherwise (which seems to be happening..) she could ONLY think that the ONLY reason your D would be upset with her is because YOU (the villain) must be turning your D against her.

Where as if you stood STRONG and demanded your daughter NOT be disrespectful to your WW... (she is wrong but still her mother) not only does that prove that it is between the two of you to your WW... but you aren't giving your DD12 BAD habits that may be hard for her to break in the future and MAY even be used against YOU someday when she wants something from YOU that you can't give her at that time. Although I understand (and relate) to your situation) she's much to young and it is unfair for her to be put in a position to "discipline" your WW for what she's doing to YOU and your marriage.
You may even take away a little of her pain and anger towards your WW by telling your DD12 the part YOU played in this.. this could teach her VALUABLE lessons about relationships that will help your DD12 NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES in HER future relationships...filling needs....being unselfish... etc...

3.) As far as I know.... Plan "B" and DIVORCE are not "tools" to "wake her up" or to "let her see what COULD happen" etc.... these are SERIOUS BUSINESS!!...
Plan "B" is meant to save ANY love THAT YOU still have for your WW... and should be used ONLY after a LONG and CONSISTENT "Plan "A" has added some love units to your love bank. This is my understanding of it... I think that's why SH suggested you wait for a while before using it... as far as I can tell that was what... less than a month ago he told you that? He's the expert...
There is NO WAY you are going to see DRASTIC results in that short a period of time... If you did it wouldn't be real... it took YEARS and YEARS for your marriage to get to this point...it isn't a quick fix... I KNOW a day seems like a month... I know... I lost 40 lbs and slept 1-2 hours a night for months.... the first time my Mother saw me she cried.... I'm not ashamed to say I cried EVERY SINGLE DAY...it's HORRIBLE... I know.... I KNOW how hard this is... I've lived it... BUT.... you can fix it "Quick" or you can fix it "RIGHT"

I can take a little of the pain away with this (I hope) the OM is NOTHING.... NADA.... ZILCH.... he has VERY LITTLE to do with this....he's an easy target... but he's doesn't have the power you think.... otherwise... your WW wouldn't be confused... he's an illusion...your WW knows this....DEEEEP down...
Let's put this into perspective... you've been married 15 years.,.. she knows him less than a year..... you have a Daughter you BOTH love.... he could care less about your daughter.... your wife or you...... YOUR WW KNOWS THIS>... DEEEEEEP down....there's more...but do you see the point.... he IS the FOG... she knows this....somewhere in her poor lost soul....she knows this... she knows she still loves YOU!!

4.) DIVORCE..... you file for divorce WHEN YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE MARRIED TO YOUR WIFE EVER AGAIN, now I'm not saying not to protect yourself and your DD12 legally do that if it gets any worse... but your WW is right.... you say you want to save your marriage and your FILING FOR DIVORCE?? She's confused.... YOU NEED TO BE CONSISTENT... divorce is NOT A THREAT to wake her up..... it is not a tool to save your marriage.... it is SERIOUS BUSINESS... it means you DO NOT WANT TO BE MARRIED ANYMORE TO THIS WOMAN....EVER....don't file until you can say these words in your heart..

OK... my 2 cents turned into $3.98 sorry.... just one more thing.... Find out what YOU did to make this possible...hard to swallow... I know... you didn't deserve it... or cause it...I'm not saying that...it was and is still her VERY BAD decision... but you had a part in it... find out what needs you didn't fill and fill them... find out what things you need to fix in YOURSELF... you can't fix your WW you can't change what's happened and make it go away... but you CAN prevent it from happening again..... hopefully with the woman you love NOW..... and by sharing what you've learned about YOUR MISTAKES with your WW.... you will remove some of the guilt which is causing her to be in so much pain.. and is also causing her to ask you "How can you ever forgive me (really)" "How can you still love me" She WILL NOT come home healthy feeling all this GUILT... it only adds fuel to the fire with OM... because SURELY... they are "soul mates" and if it works with him.... she's NOT a bad girl... is she? It was just meant to be.... it also proves that you "get it" and when she comes home.... you will STAY changed and that it's not just a "trick" to get her back like OM is probably telling her... well....that's it....
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

Frank-
D-Day was 9-6-05. Started Plan A 9-20-05.
I do now understand what i did wrong in our marriage. Also, know what WW did wrong. Long story short...I spent many hours away from home working. WW took this as i did not care about her, want her, or felt I loved her. Your standard case of neglect. I have since stopped my part time business and auto racing carrer to be home with my family. I have read the basic consepts and about the love bank, love busters, and emotional needs. It is plain as day what I did wrong. Over time I failed to meet almost all of my wifes top five needs. Then on top of it all she is a very poor communicator and has failed over the years to tell me what she really feels and is thinking. The last three years as my work required more of me and my racing carrer was taking off, our marriage paid the price. The time i was at home it was focused on my DD12. I realize that i set my wife up to fall for the first loser that pretented to care about her. Yes, he is a co-worker. Yes, he is not attractive. Yes, he started out just being her friend that she could talk to about our problems. That part ties into what her problems are in our marriage. Scared to tell me what she really felt, so she confided in a loser that only wanted to trade his wife in for mine. That's basically how it all started. As she felt more and more for him, our relationship go worse and worse. I did many love busters not even knowing she was cheating. I did everything wrong while she was falling in love with this total piece of _hit. It is hard for me to believe how i got in this deep. WW was never perfect, but always was a very caring person that i see now really did try to reach me over the years. Her approach was missunderstood by me. I know all this now.
I'm trying to be the person i want to be now. That angers WW. She ask why it took an affair to wake me up. She constantly attacks me for this. WHY NOW is her famous line. I have defended my self pretty well with that.
Your right, WW does not like to see me hurting. It is adding to her guilt. She is angry with me for not being strong enough to not show my pain. I think this adds to her guilt but if i didn't not hurt a little in front of her then she would not think i cared about us.
She does think that i'm brain washing DD12 that is really angry with her. DD12 anger is growing each time mom lets her down. I have told DD12 that dad was not a good husband to mommy and also not the best daddy to you either. You need to know that daddy should have been better to mommy and she would not have gotten sick like she is now. I'm making changes so I can help mommy get better and be a great daddy to you. DD12 says I know dad. You have passed the test, it's mommy that is failing. I said, explain. DD12 says dad I know you were not home enough and it hurt me and mom when you were gone. But, you are now home and you have quit racing to be with us. It's mom that now needs to pull head out and come home to us and be my mom and with you. I said, honey I love you, and i wish we could all see it like that.
Last night we all three went to parent teacher confs at DD12 school. WW was really on edge, i thought because OM's mommy works there. So, I tried to be nice, make small talk and ease the tention. She was really withdrawn. We almost made it through when I screwed up. While waiting in the gym to meet with the last teacher, my cell rings. It's a guy wanting to buy my truck. I cut the call short, WW ask who it was. I told her a guy is going to by the truck. She immediately attacks me about her car being a big pile of _hit and how I have made her drive that junk, and I should drive it and see just how bad it is and she bets i would fix it with in a week if I was to drive it and on and on. I said, WW you know why you don't have a new car. It's your fault you turned me down in April when you were testing driving cars to buy. She just started right back in about how bad her life is all because of me and I never gave her anything good, and never any money, and on and on. I lost it and shoved DD12 school papers at her and started to walk off. She made a smart [censored] comment to me, and I told her to _uck off. I went out side for a few minutes and calmed down. Then went back in. Yes, i should have stayed away. Stood with daughter for her last review. WW made some more cheap shots at me. I calmly asked if she would like to accompany me to the library before we leave. WW started walking for the door. So, me and DD12 finished up, and went and ate dinner. When we got home WW was there carring her cloths back in the house. DD12 tells me mom told her earlier in the day that she was coming home. So, now i see why she was so pissy. Later after she went to sleep, I snooped through her purse. I found phone numbers and notes on apartments she had been calling on earlier in the day. However, she only makes 10$ and hour and can not afford much. Espically if she thinks she is going to buy another car. I might add that the WW has very high standards of living. Most say she is spoiled by everything i provided her and she still thinks it was not good enough. Her own family refer to her as a spooiled princess. So, she can't live the way she wants on her own. Not sure what finally clicked to make her move out of OM's apartment. Probably just realizing that DD12 will not ever go over there and she is missing DD12.

Awww, that is very good news. Now she is back home with you, but have the two of you discussed no contact with the OM?

After our deal last night at the school we did not discussed much. DD12 yelled at her for fighting with me at her school. WW was not impressed that DD12 thinks she was in the wrong. Accused me of brain washing. Before DD12 confronted mommy, I had told DD12 daddy should not have let mommy get me upset and i take half the blame for over reacting.
I plan on talking to her about no contact and group MC tonight. Not expecting an open arms welcome to either one.

dazed,
I have been here for a LONG time but under a different name which no longer seems to work. That being said I feel like there are a couple of things I can offer here having read all the posts you have written.

First off...don't threaten your wife with anything; even if you don't consider it a threat she might so be careful what you say and do. You want to be the good person here. The problem with threats is that too often we don't intend to carry them out, just use them to try and control the situation. If you are not going to do it, and do it immediately then don't say it.

Second...when you mentioned defending yourself. Stop. This is not the time to be defensive. When an issue comes up in which she is saying how you did this or that, agree with her. Tell her that yes you did/were like that, have realized it and are trying or have changed. End of conversation.

Also when she seems to start attacking you in inappropriate places such as the school. Tell her that you are not prepared to discuss it now as you are there for _____ and that you will be happy to talk about it later at home and in private. Don't let her goad you into losing your temper, that just reinforces to her that you are the bad guy. You need to learn to head her off at the pass.

I do think that it is good that she is back home...but you should not let her continue to attack you or be blamed for everything happening now in her life. That is all her doing. I do think that you have to consider your boundaries and what you will and will not accept and make them clear to her and be prepared to stick to them when she goes off or takes off again.

I could say more, but will leave it at that for now and hope that you can gather the strength necessary to weather what is going to be a difficult time for you all.

HI,
I agree with dancingrosey ... don't let her bait you into a fight...she's "testing" you now and that is actually a good sign...
She has a lot of anger towards you... anger is what? Hurt turned inside out...she is showing you the pain she felt for all the time she felt unloved... again.... textbook...expected....
This is like a football game... it has strategy... good football coaches teach there players what things will or could happen and teach them to do a certain thing if and when it does... then they are not REACTING to what is happening.. but taking the necessary steps to prevent what is happening...

MB principals are just that... tools to prevent.... and they are meant to teach us not to "react" to our "crazy" WS because they aren't rational at ALL!!

The thing that amazed me when I first got here is although all our situations are completely different... we are all different and our length of marriage is different.,.. there were sooooo many things that were the same... a pattern....
I remember a thread were we all posted the things hurtful things our WSs said... like "I love you but I'm not IN love with you" (the most hurtful one!!) and it was incredible how they ALL said and did the same things almost like a script....

SO.... watching and reading for many years has taught me that the people that had the greatest success repairing their marriages were the ones that first of all "got it" (which I think you have BTW) and secondly.. stuck to the MB principals without fail.... NO LB NO disrespectful judgments... NO anger... because.... all those things do is fuel the fire for the OP and we start at square one again...
PRAISE GOD that she is home again.,.. I know she's kicking and screaming about being there but take heart that just the fact that she is there is a VERY VERY good sign.,..
Her "FOG" is telling her that she was forced into it with guilt and pressure from your DD. And I'm sure she's planning her FINAL escape.... BUT.... WE KNOW SOMETHING SHE DOESN'T KNOW.....Why? Because it is the same OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.....
What do we know? THIS MARRIAGE CAN BE SAVED!!! THIS MARRIAGE CAN BE EVERYTHING SHE HAS ALWAYS WANTED IT TO BE!! IT WILL JUST TAKE A LOT OF REPAIR AND HARD WORK...

She still loves you.... she REALLY deep deep down wants your marriage to be what you keep telling her it will be... (it's what she cried about all the time you were hurting her) but.... she doesn't believe it can be true....
So... like dancingrosey and SH are telling you... YOU need to be the ROCK... you need to not waver and YOU need to do ALL the work for now (unfair but true <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) BTW she was doing all the work before when you were neglecting her... you didn't know and she tried BUT DIDN'T HAVE THE TOOLS...

YOU HAVE THE TOOLS THAT SHE DIDN'T...!!!!! THEY ARE RIGHT HERE IN FRONT OF YOU... SHE WAS TRYING TO REMOVE A SCREW WITH A HAMMER.... IT DIDN'T WORK... SO SHE GAVE UP... BuT NOW YOU HAVE A SCREWDRIVER!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> THIS CAN BE FIXED!!
BUT.. YOU HAVE TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE SHE DID WITH THE HAMMER FIRST.... DO NOT REACT....DO NOT REACT..... DO NOT REACT.... PREVENT.. AND REPAIR... be the broken record Harley told you to be... he's the expert...
Stay strong... you are doing VERY well for only a month of knowing what to do... really... you are rookie of the year in my eyes.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you must have read allot...
If you need to vent... come here and do it... if you need to be hurt... be hurt here.... but in front of your WW no matter WHAT she says to you DO NOT REACT.... STAY CONSISTENT AND POSITIVE THAT YOU CAN HAVE A GREAT MARRIAGE AND TELL HER WHEN "SHE IS READY" YOU HAVE THE TOOLS YOU GUYS DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.....

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

dancing & PH-
Thank you for your very kind words. I don't think I will accept your nomination for rookie of the year. Rather think I'm the leading canidate for dumb _uck of the year or the last four to five. When i reflect back on this year since WW started her relationship with OM in March, all the caution flags were waving, even red flags and i blew right past them with my head up my you know what. I feel so stupid and horrible for how i treated the most important part of my life. I hurt my wife so much she thought that i did not even care about her anymore. When i think back over and replay the years since i started racing and she was there doing all she could to love me the only way she new how and i just hurt her. Yes, the hammer and screw is a great analogy. I know i laid the grounds for her affair. She just got so worn down and tired of waiting for me to return. The man she fell in love with was gone for so long she finally gave up on me. It is so tragic. I know she loves me and wishes we could work deep in side. She even told SH that. She told me she can and has forgiven me. She just can't forget. Her thought process is all screwed up now. She says she remembers situations where i hurt her and those memories make it hard for her to not think negitive about me. That is true. I have ask her to not always look at the glass half empty but half full. She always picks the bad out of all the great things i have done for her. I know right now that is the script of a WW.
WW just called me a couple seconds ago. She asked if she or me was going to pick up DD after work. I suggested she do it. My reason was keep her from visiting with OM after work which was her routine. She accepted and then started in about being the only mom there with a old junk car picking up there kids. I suggested we can go look for another car this week end. She said, there is no we, and no thank you i will do it myself. I said well you keep my offer in mind. She said no thanks, i will buy one when i can pay for it. end of call.
So she is still poed. Maybe her anger towards me is part of not living with OM now. Most likely. I was a bit surprised she did not even attempt to call OM last night. I checked the phone at least a dozen times last night and listened very closely for her voice and nothing. I can only hope things with OM are not all peachy right now. Yes, sounds like she if planning for her final escape. I agree it a very important time for me to make as much ground up right now as possible. I will keep researching MB for more help. The cost is high, but probably could use another chat with SH right about now.

Thank you for your very kind words. I don't think I will accept your nomination for rookie of the year. Rather think I'm the leading canidate for dumb _uck of the year or the last four to five. When i reflect back on this year since WW started her relationship with OM in March, all the caution flags were waving, even red flags and i blew right past them with my head up my you know what. I feel so stupid and horrible for how i treated the most important part of my life. I hurt my wife so much she thought that i did not even care about her anymore. When i think back over and replay the years since i started racing and she was there doing all she could to love me the only way she new how and i just hurt her. Yes, the hammer and screw is a great analogy. I know i laid the grounds for her affair. She just got so worn down and tired of waiting for me to return. The man she fell in love with was gone for so long she finally gave up on me. It is so tragic. I know she loves me and wishes we could work deep in side. She even told SH that. She told me she can and has forgiven me. She just can't forget. Her thought process is all screwed up now. She says she remembers situations where i hurt her and those memories make it hard for her to not think negitive about me. That is true. I have ask her to not always look at the glass half empty but half full. She always picks the bad out of all the great things i have done for her. I know right now that is the script of a WW.

You have identified what the problems were. Now is the time to accept that you made mistakes and stop beating yourself up over it. I am sorry to say, but it sounds like your W is one that takes advantage of knowing that about you. You cannot take control of yourself if you are constantly feeling guilty over what was. When it is brought up again, as it seems it will...simply say, "yes I was wrong in being that way but that was then and this is now." There is nothing to be accomplished by going over and over the past. It drags you down and keeps you from moving forward. You must keep doing this over and over consistantly and back it up with actions...that will show your W that you mean it.

WW just called me a couple seconds ago. She asked if she or me was going to pick up DD after work. I suggested she do it. My reason was keep her from visiting with OM after work which was her routine. She accepted and then started in about being the only mom there with a old junk car picking up there kids. I suggested we can go look for another car this week end. She said, there is no we, and no thank you i will do it myself. I said well you keep my offer in mind. She said no thanks, i will buy one when i can pay for it. end of call.

Okay so when the car comes up again you have your answer and she gave it to you....a simple...yes we talked about it and you made your wishes perfectly clear. If you change your mind I will be happy to help you pick another one out...then change the subject.


So she is still poed. Maybe her anger towards me is part of not living with OM now. Most likely. I was a bit surprised she did not even attempt to call OM last night. I checked the phone at least a dozen times last night and listened very closely for her voice and nothing. I can only hope things with OM are not all peachy right now. Yes, sounds like she if planning for her final escape. I agree it a very important time for me to make as much ground up right now as possible. I will keep researching MB for more help. The cost is high, but probably could use another chat with SH right about now.

I am a little worried about your statment of making up as much ground as possible. It is a process that cannot be rushed and the last thing you want to do is smother your W ...first it will make her even more angry and second it will really not accomplish anything except wear you out. Yes you need to show her through your actions that you really have changed, but you also need to show her that being with you can be fun. Keep life light; do things yourself and with your D making sure that you ask W to take part; that way she has the option and in the end can see what she is missing. Don't make the mess the focus...make having fun the focus. Don't drag it down with all the negative heavy relationship talk right now. That will come when you can really talk about it honestly. Right now you have to lay the groundwork for that to happen.

Reading your posts it is as if you are in panic mode a lot of time. Don't react...when you feel like you are going to, stop and remove yourself from the situation and look at from a different perspective. That way you can take positive action.

Why are you offering to get her a car when she has not done anything yet to earn your trust? Trust that she will not cheat on you again. Trust that she will not hurt you and your DD again merely to pursue her happiness.

Things may be looking up, but please be cautious about believing/expecting more than is warranted.