jp- Thank you so much! Your steady direction even when I'm at my worst is so very kind of you. I have done pretty much as you have suggested. Last night WW called me from Wal-mart. Don't really know why. She just wanted to check my pulse i think. So, I took full advantage of the opp. I very nicely told her I have to move on and let her go. She remained calm and quite. I talked for 15 or 20 minutes very kindly breaking up with her basically a primer for the PBL. At this point I had to end the phone call. She just kept hanging on the line. A major roll reversal there, i might add. I went on the the b-day party. Let sil take d home to spend the night. I went on home to do laundry, watch tv, pack up WW, and think about my PBL. Much to my surprise WW walks in around 9:45. She ask where D was. I told her, she replied: I really have lost her huh. I gave her no reply. She sets done on the other couch to watch tv. I barely spoke to her. I offered a pop while i was getting myself one. That was it. After about an hour-1/2 I went on up to bed. About 15 minutes later WW comes upstairs. We made up like mad. Just kidding!!! I had you on that one huh... No she did come in the room and stood there for a minute. I didn't even open my eyes. She went on to D room and went to sleep there. This morning she did wonder into our room and did get into bed with me. However, I ignored her. After I took a couple of phone calls she started trying to talk to me. She says; BS you will never forgive me and think of me the same again. You will probably hold this over my head forever. Everyone hates me know even D. I was so alone while you were gone all the time. I live so long in solitude. We have crap for families, and very few friends. We lived such a dull life and you were gone so much. I had to fill the gaps with other people because i missed you so much. Over the years you did many great things for me and us. It was not all bad. However, I always remember the bad things. As time went by you seemed to always take and take and there was never any time for me and what I wanted. I felt I gave all the time and then just began to feel used. Then I said, well WW i'm guilty of neglecting you and like i said so many times, i have made the changes in my life so i will no longer neglect my daughter or the woman i love. I will not argue that I have made many mistakes. However, I now know what i did wrong. In reflection of our 15 years i can see how we got off track and how my actions contributed to us being here today. I'm changing for the better. I'm using history to improve my future. I do realize i had a part in making it so the first worthless loser that shown interest in you could still you away.
However, how do you plan on living a life of fun with out being lonely and solitude. You need to work on your future as well. You need to understand why you could not communicate with me. You worked so hard to reach me but failed. We need to understand that and why you felt so lonely and in solitude that you had to confide in another person that was not me. You have it in you mind all the reason's why we can't work. I have all the reason's why we could but it's you that must deal figure this out. I'm not perfect and no one is but, your negitivity and depression is something you need to deal with no matter where or how you are with. If you choose to find the bad in me then you will. If you want to find all the reasons why we will never work again then you will. It's all in your way of thinking WW. I love you WW but I don't love us.
She says nothing for another half hour. As I'm almost a sleep again she ask if i need her to continue to give me a part of her paycheck for bills. I declined and told her she will need it. She ask if i will be able to keep the house and things. I said: i will make it one way or another, you need to worry about yourself. She said she did not want anything other than her car and cloths. I will have daughter, house and everything else.
After another 10 minutes:
She ask me if i regreted moving last year. Kinda weird. I said: yes, only in two aspects. I miss the house i built for us. I spent 10 years and all my spare time building a house out of a labor of my love for us. The other thing is I wish we could have corrected our marriage before we moved to a city of many oppourtunities. Even though our marriage was lemping there was no one for you to run to. She agreed. I think she was just reflecting on our marriage and the good times we spent in our other home and town. Mainly because she has been with MOM ever since we moved.
She made the commit she wishes she was dead. I got up and showered. She came by the bath room and watched me shave and do my hair. I ignored her. Later she asked if she could clean the house. I replied do you plan on taking your stuff tonight or what. She looked near tears and ran off to the bath room. A few minutes later she came back out. Approached me looking sad. I told her she looked nice and I told her was going to lunch by my self, and I left.
The plan B letter is written and ready. Peachy, you suggested filing legal separation and RO against MOM for daughter and custody. Do you think I should do this rather than the divorce papers?
Another side bar: WW's mom suggested I do the same thing and ask that they do a drug test on WW. She is 100% supportive of me and can't believe what WW has done either.
Oh, and get this. MIL called yesterday right. MIL was actually calling for me to see if i needed her to come over and help with daughter and do house work. he he.. If this was not real it would be funny.
By the way lemonman: what qualifies you as a master jedi anyway?
dazed

Wow. Big developments. And many positive things. Congratulations.

I am no expert BUT (of course I have an opinion…) she has seen the darkness. She has seen the end and how the gates are closing behind her. That is good. But are you sure she sees the way back? I take it you want her back?

It sounds like she really wants back but either does not see a road back or realizes she has that option.

When you do the Plan B letter make sure the road back is clearly paved.

Yes – this does sound like a soap opera. Make sure you get a copyright. If you can get a happy ending you could sell the plot for $$$$

Dazed, I think you did great. Follow up on your plans and don't get caught up in WW's pity party. She needs to hit bottom. She is close, but she is not there yet. Plan B is just what she needs.

I am curious, do you know what Plan B entails? It entails no contact except with respect to DD's custody issues. Are you ready for it?

I will say she is close...and UVA is right as well as my fellow Jedi Lemon! (I am a jedi princess...lol)

But she is NOT broken!

Problems here I see...
1)she is flip flopping like mad! Maybe you should buy this waffle queen a waffle maker for xmas!
2)she is unstable emotionally. I believe she maybe on drugs or dependent on alcohol or something...BUT THAT IS HER PROBLEM AND NOT YOURS AND MAKES FOR AN UNSTABLE MOM EITHER WAY...ADDICTION OR INSTABILITY.
3)She sees the MONEY TRAIN IS LEAVING! Yea, she sees it. She sees her options closing.
4)She is a MASTER MANIPULATOR and I am sick of seeing her fake tears. She does this whole "I'd LIKE to come back BUT" routine on you every few days.
5)She is not a good mom. She has lost it! She is just saying she's "lost" your daughter. Are her actions showing otherwise? ARe they otherwise. WE JUDGE PEOPLE NOT BY WORDS BUT BY ACTIONS.

Her actions show me that she is unstable, lying, cheating, and eating cake. She wants your money, house, stability, and "label" of being sqeaky clean W...but deep down she can't leave OM..she likes being shacked up with him or else she'd move out!

I would proceed ahead. Make sure plan B letter DOES HAVE WAY HOME written in it. But until this time, you gotta protect your daughter...and your assets...and your sanity. Unless she is 100 percent committed to marriage, recovery, and ending with OM...AND THIS WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO SHOW..

Again, DID I NOT WARN YOU ABOUT HER TRYING TO RECONCILE OR PRETEND TO DO THIS WAYY FAR TOO SOON?

Expect it to happen.

But it will not last.

Not until she's on bottom.

Until then, blinders on, head held high. Keep being there for your daughter. I am quite fearful what this woman emotionally has done to your daughter. Yes, she is destroying her family! And it will not be same again. It will take years of building from this point to get back..but it could be done...if she (WW) is strong enough. Now she's a simpering, crying, cake eating fool.

Now I would suspect she's gone to OM house! If she truly wanted to change...despite your not allowing her home, she'd go to her relatives...or friends...and move in with them and show you publicly how she's ending it with OM.

But she is not gonna do that.

She is playing both ends (you and OM) against the middle.

Again, her dreams are this:
apartment
boyfriend
living like a teenager without responsibilities
new car
having responsibilities of being a mother only when she feels like it
and above all:
PERSUADING YOU, HER FAMILY, AND FRIENDS THAT WE CAN ALL GET THRU THIS TOGETHER AND THAT THIS AFFAIR IS OK!

That's the deep desire of all affairees! To make the world OK with their stupidity and immorality!

To legitimize it!

Now..

DO NOT GIVE HER WHAT SHE WANTS!

I'd call this Dobson's Tough Love at it's finest!

Again, blinders on! Head held high! Focus on daughter for now...get her into good Faith based IC for healing! And you and daughter find TEN FUN THINGS to do together this week! Take daughters' focus off her crazy mom!

Let WW implode on herself! Let OM HANDLE HER NOW!

I hope you are doing ok. You are in my prayers.

UVA-JP-JL-MM-bigger-Mr.&Mrs.W-everyone else that has helped and prayed for me. THANK YOU!

I'm doing pretty well actually.

I do have a question.
1) Should I give WW's OM a copy of my plan B. I know the Harley sample does this. Does everyone and what is the point?

Yes, you do. The point is that both the OP and WS know where you stand. That you havent given up. They cant spin it that way. Thus they have a problem. They get to be with each other constantly...but they cant move forward because you are holding onto the marriage. The OP will be POed because he wont be able to fully rely on her and that she is coming. He will continue to wonder if she might go back.

As with everything involved in Plan A and B...the affair gets to be a very hard place to be in.

In His arms.

M-man
Thank you for helping me understand. I will deliver his copy this after noon.
Dazed

Mortarman-
One more question-
How much of my plan B do I share with my daughter12?
She will need to know the rules and what's going on.
Obviously she knows about mom being with a loser, but do let her in on most of my plan B?

Just let her know the basics. That you have decided to have NC with your wife until she stops doing what she is doing. That you love her mother very much and have not given up on her, but until she can do the right thing, you will have to maintain NC with her. I think your DD12 will understand. As you have posted, I think your DD12 wanted to Plan B her mom! Dont allow that, though.

In His arms.

Another thought to through out:
OM's divorce court date is set for 11-7-05. Does having my WW shacking up with him hurt his divorce case? He has no kids to fight over but he is trying to take a large sum of his wife's money and her truck. Should i expose OM's secret shack up honey to OM's future EXW?
The last I spoke with OM's wife she was just ready to move on and give him what he wants so he will leave her alone. She is really scared of him.
dazed

HI Dazed,



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I don't understand why everyone here is so bent on YOU going into Plan "B" when I doubt they really understand how hard it will be on YOU. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> AND... they seem to think it will "make her hit bottom" "wake her up" and the one I HATE stop her "cake eating" Plan "B" is for YOU to save YOUR love... not a tool to use to wake someone up...clearly that's what Harley says. And Plan "A" is for SIX MONTHS (and if you LB start the ticker again.)
I mean she's HOME!!! That... is half the battle...look at most here are dealing with a WS that is REALLY a WS GONE... hard to plan A without the person seeing you!!

And as for filing D... well I told you before only do that when you are SURE you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER want your wife back again.

God brought you here for a reason... he could have led you to a site where EVERYONE (even the Harley figure") told you to "Kick the Bi**ch to the curb..." "go Dark" etc...
But he didn't... he led you here... the principals are very sound here.... these people don't really understand them... or are too angry to carry them out... it really is hard and takes a LOT of strength and self control...
I WISH you would talk to Steve Harley again before you do a "B" or a D and BTW forget all the letters.... you need to do what YOUR HEART tells you to do (with good sound knowledge behind it) YOU KNOW HER BETTER THAN US!!

You should read the posts by LOSTVA do a search about 5 years ago (when this board had LOVING advice on it) and read her great success story.. NOW THAT.... WAS A PLAN "A"!! (known here as feeding cake or being a doormat) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> LOL

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS... FRANK

I FOUND THIS ONE.... BUT GO BACK AND READ HER STORY AS IT UNFOLDED... IT IS AMAZING.... FRANK






LOSTVA
Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of ******". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!! ) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two LB letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a LB!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got that letter. And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. [color:"red"] [/color] And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as ****** be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.

Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones! )

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori

Frank:

Interesting post to say the least. Why don't you define for us "success" so that we are all on the same page here. I think Justpeachy is a roaring success story. She is well grounded, professionally successful, she has self love and self integrity, she is a single mom who does the best for her son...why don't you tell me WHAT IS IT ABOUT JUST PEACHY THAT IS NoT SUCCESSFUL...? If you are gonna say that the reason that she is not "successful" is because she didn't "stay married" to a chronically cheating, physically and verbally abusing man....well, I want you to explain yourself further. If you make the statements you do above, you better come back and back them up.

You see, what you define "success" and what someone else defines "success" can be two totally different things. You may see "success" as someone who was cheated on, and managed to stay married to their betrayer, and three years later is a shell of their former self living with a WS who just tells them to "get over it"...and although they may not be technically cheating, the patterns of abuse and dysfunction continue. I fear that many "recovered" Betrayed Spouses basically are in marriages that are like being with a "dry drunk" alcoholic...Yeah, the cheating may have stopped...but that is about all.

So, you make some pretty sweeping comments about Justpeachy here, so why don't YOU TELL US what Dazed should do, and please explain to me what being a "doormat" is...if such a terms exists. I perhaps have ot "wrong"...why don't you ****** me here, as obvious you know.

I am a simpleton and could greatly look forward to your opinion. You tell Dazed he should take Justpeachy's advuce with a grain of salt....shouldn't that be the case with EVERYONE here? None of us are experts....none of us KNOW the entire 100% stort of others here, as a Poster rarely if ever tells the whole complete story...that would not really be possible now.

Let me know your thoughts.

LEM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bump for Frank's thoughts

Lem

OK LEMON...CALM DOWN <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


[color:"red"] " If you make the statements you do above, you better come back and back them up." [/color]

I expected to have to defend that statement..... I just don't want this thread to become about my statement... this guy needs help here... but I'll defend...



[color:"red"] "I fear that many "recovered" Betrayed Spouses basically are in marriages that are like being with a "dry drunk" alcoholic...Yeah, the cheating may have stopped...but that is about all." [/color]

That is because you don't seem to understand the concepts here.... it isn't a TYPE of person that cheats ANY ONE of us is capable under certain circumstances... Understanding that the BS had something to do with the WS having the affair is what separates the "men from the boys" on this site.... if they don't "get it" then the anger is too great and they can never forgive enough to do a good "Plan "A"

[color:"red"] YOU CAN'T RESTORE LOVE WITHOUT UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.... [/color]

Most people here are into "Well... if she PROVES herself or gives you this or acts this way THEN love her and treat her with respect.... LOVE IS SUPPOSED TO BE UNCONDITIONAL..... ANGER, JEALOUSY, HATE and STUBBORN PRIDE aren't parts of unconditional love...
If you get caught up in what the WS does or says YOU ARE DOOMED!!!
WS are SUPPOSED to act nuts NOT US!!!!!!! They are SUPPOSED to waffle back and forth between the OP and the BS
THAT IS WHAT THEY DO!!!! Don't you think that Harley KNOWS THIS??
So people that give advice based on what the WS does aren't helping the BS they are helping the WS continue to CONTROL the issue with a brain that is, SELFISH, CONNIVING, HATEFUL ETC.... FOGGED OUT!!

This is hard enough without falling for all the usual WS fog stuff without someone SCREAMING stuff like this at you

"so why don't YOU TELL US what Dazed should do, "
PLEASE GO BACK A COUPLE OF PAGES AND SEE WHAT I TOLD HIM. JUST BASIC MB PRINCIPALS....NOT MINE.....MB's MOSTLY.

I just think it's crazy to be telling dazed a couple of months into this that he needs to do a Plan "B" or to file for D...

[color:"red"] THE IDEA HERE IS TO RE-BUILD LOVE IN HIS WS's HEART FOR HIM... NOT TO SHOCK HER INTO LOVING HIM.... [/color]
SHE DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF LOVE FOR HIM RIGHT NOW (on the surface it's been buried under what he did to HER first) SO.... HARLEY SAYS DO A PLAN "A" FOR 6 MONTHS (his D day was 9-20!!!!!) AND TRY AND GET THE LOVE BANK IN THE POSITIVE FIRST.... THEN.....WORK ON YOUR MARRIAGE.....

and please explain to me what being a "doormat" is...if such a terms exists. I perhaps have ot "wrong"...why don't you ****** me here, as obvious you know."

WELL.... I WOULD SAY WITH RESERVATIONS THAT IF YOU TRIED A PLAN "A" FOR 2 YEARS AND THERE WAS NO CHANGE THEN YOU MAY BE A DOORMAT... ALTHOUGH A GOOD FRIEND JUST GOT BACK WITH HIS WIFE AFTER 5 YEARS (although no MB principals were used in that case) SO I DON'T KNOW....

BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS IN A CASE LIKE THIS YOU REALLY NEED TO LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.,.... FOR BETTER AND FOR WORSE.... TILL DEATH.........THIS IS THE WORST OF THE WORST IMHO.....
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS.... FRANK

I don't think you can shock anyone into loving you or rebuilding the M.....

It seems to me that the spouses that leaves/ or continue the A while at home don't always know what they are doing....some here say they are in the fog... to me a lot are probably confused and feel justified to do what they are doing and it will take time to come around...and it is up to the BS to figure out how long they will "give" their spouse....most BS (or the left spouse) doesn't know how long they will wait...they figure it out as they go....

D-day was end of september, so it is just over a month...I know you are still in pain....but if you want to use the plan A and plan B (which are all about establishing NC) then please try try really hard to not LB...do not kick her out....(that is not what Harley says at all - I am sure there are circumstances where kicking the WS out are justified so you need to figure out if they are in your case)...I say do not kick her just cause you are hurt, of course you are hurt, but imagine if you do plan A, it is so much easier (NOT easy) to do WHILE your S is there at the house......it is difficult once they are GONE....mine is gone and calls me maybe once a week (not easy to meet many needs!)...

These are just my 2 cents...

Best,
Daisy

YES DAISY!! YES I'll let DAZED answer for himself later but I just had to jump in here and say YES!!
DAZED......Take the advice from someone that is living with a WS not at home... IS IT HARDER WHEN THEY ARE GONE!!
And kicking her out is not the right thing because you are hurt!! YES <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />... FINALLY SOMEONE WHO "GETS" it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Daisy... I will check out your posts tomorrow and will be praying for you and your Marriage...REALLY HARD!! I hope you are OK.....GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

to this person WHO IS JUDGING MY SUCCESS OR MY ADVICE...
Hint: EVERYTHING I HAVE WITNESSED with my xh has happened...and happened according to how things will go with MB.

My success is what it is.

For you to judge me as NOT a success is well...your problem.

Am I angry? No...I think much more than that.

what do I see? I see many bs here and they are missing serious areas...and some serious cake eating is going on.

do not judge me...

unless you can know who I am today, what I went thru, how I got through it, and made it to other side with my sanity, dignity, and child.

this man's wife is vascillating back and forth leaving t heir family home and placing so much stress on the children it is so sad...

so you jump onto a post and declare that I am not one to give advice? and what is YOUR success? Heck I don't care...as long as this man is doing what he can to get a very wayward wife back home...sleeping at om's...getting sympathyt from om and then coming home and playing same game at home and hurting their child so very much in process.

If you have good advice to give this man then do so.

LEAVE MY LIFE OUTTA IT.

I could personally care less what you think of me.

AND YOUR WORDS ABOUT ME NOT BEING A MB SUCCESS SHOWS something about YOU....

There are some marriages here which cannot be saved. No matter how smart, how much MB is applied...or how much tact is used. WS have something called free will...which is what we have.

what is interesting I think in my life is that even my xh, is living his life according to what mb says if they do leave their marriage...he is doing everything just as said would happen.

If I AM A FAILURE...THEN TELL THIS TO ALL THE OTHERS HERE WHO MADE IT OVER TO OTHER SIDE...didn't recover their marriage but recovered their lives because they realized their ws was NOT going to change soon, was too outta control or too toxic to continue forward with.

Tell them that they're failures too!

when people are here and wonder what a ws is doing...or what they're thinking...heck, I have 3 years experience here..when they ask why they're doing something..I get it. I have heard about every lie in the book and saw just about anything that could come their way.

and yes, I want people to stay together! my buddies here are always in my prayers.

but to say that some of my friends here who are divorced should not help others is well...I WILL LET YOU BE THE JUDGE OF YOUR OWN WORDS.

In the meantime, do not hijack a post to say negative things about somebody YOU DON'T KNOW.

this is my last and only response to you btw.

Dazed...

sorry for that...but I don't tolerate words like that from somebody I do not know...

anyway, she is getting close to being broken for sure. she has to want to come home.

what is her reasoning for that want? If we look at what happens now we see this...

we see a woman who is getting en's met by you and a bf. she refuses to give up one or the other. and we all know what enabling will do to her.

the reason I have suggested b as others here is because she is really not doing anything that would show the a is slowing down...she is in and out of the home...not being a participating parent...skipped out on the neice and dropped the ball hugely in that area...and is damaging her child by the words and actions.

I see much toxicity here.

I will ask you this...what would make this woman come home? If we use logic, we can say that "well we could keep doing same thing we're doing now (letting her come and go and spend a few hours here, not be kind to child, and then pout and then run off after telling lies to the om's house.) and see if this will work. Well it is not seeming to work. Or we could change the dynamics and see if that will have an effect.

seems however, that your actions were beginning to have an effect when you told her what you did the other day. I saw her moving a bit closer to moving home.

my favorite life quote is einstein's..."definition of insanity is to do same thing over and over and expecting an outcome to be different."

I apply it daily to my own life. everybody gets stuck in routines...and we hope we get stuck in routines that are WORKING for us instead of against us.

right now, you're in a fight to save your marriage...and preserve your love for her in process...your w is doing everything possible to make you lose that love. she is deliberately pushing you away...and you've done a huge plan a. been loving, kind, etc...and then...came the lecture part.

that was a tossback. we know that though. can only move forward from there.

she is making you inch ever closely to the point where you will and could be in danger of losing what love is left. I know it and understand.

that is why I am suggesting plan b right now.

You show her a good plan a for a while longer, and then do the plan b.

she has to rethink her options. she has to see her home as a safe place...a place of love and compassion where she could return. you place clear directions on how she can do it in the letter. it is the kindest love letter you can send.

Now we do not know what a ws will do. nobody can predict t heir actions. we have many here who can attest to what a ws will do...and we can average out the responses to get an overall view of how they act...and yea, it is pretty much the same. a good amount will come home when faced with the reality...and reality is in their face...and then a fair amount will not come home or change no matter what the bs does.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD IS THIS:

Nobody and I mean NOBODY CAN CONTROL A WS. It is impossible to control another person. but what you can control is your reaction to the situation.

There is a time according to Mb to do plan a. a s eason if you will. this time is to be worked well. read the thread about the carrot and the stick of plan A. and you did it pretty darn good btw.

there is a time according to mb to do plan b. and many ws have made decisions and positive choices to return to their families based on what they saw and chose because the bs did plan a and b.

but there are some that will not react according to mb. they just do not return. and it unfortunately happens here. You cannot force another person to do anything at all...but you can change circumstances.

Perception is key by the ws...if they see a loving home, a warm inviting place and a bs with an open heart....they will stand on the sidelines during plan a and take note...and probably eat some cake...if the ws does not change their minds, and time passes and the behaviors get more destructive by the ws...then something else...a different approach (a la einstein) must be used.

then it's time for b. and the ws has the road map the whole time on how to get home. the bs does not enable the affair at all. the ws gets to see what life is like when bs is gone..when their safety net, loving home, safe home, is not there anymore open to their destructive behaviors. and then free will comes into play. the ws decides if they continue down that destructive path or come home.

a human being can only do so much. we do more than superman does here btw. but you do the plans and you do them well.

I think that even if in the end, say a ws does NOT come home...the chance of that relationship with op succeeding is abysmally small. I think that the two year rule is right on the money ...or it could take a little longer...but that the affair relationship is dead in the water...only takes a matter of time.

My brother in law is perfect example of my sister doing plan a...when she suspected something happened a few years ago in her marriage (can we say I gave her my book on saa?)..it was never confirmed. He came home. affair discovered actually several years later. He saw why he needed to come home. No need for plan b there. sometimes it's not needed. so my very own sister is a Mb recovery champ ok? My neices and nephews have 2 loving parents and a stable and wonderful home. My bro in law is a devoted dad and husband...just bought my sis a gorgeous new wedding band btw...so yea, a family was recovered.

and then there is what happened to me....but in the end...I truly believe that my xh will leave and want to leave being the way he is. it is only a matter of time. I will forever love and miss the man I married. I know that this man never had chance because of circumstances to ever hit rock bottom...but I know that he will one day crash. I also know that he deeply probably regrets his choices. My heart broke 2 years ago...shortly before the birth of his child. When mere days after our D was final...that he stood in his own office at work...tears in his eyes and tears down my face as he confirmed he was going to be a dad again by ow. He said he could not change anything and that he'd always love me. at that point, I realized my heart could take no more. and that was after a long plan b.

time passed. the affair marriage trudged along. and life went according as predicted...sadly...for my xwh.

Recently my xh's present wife found his plan B letter along with my simple gold band. It was hidden away in a closet..well hidden I might add...the ow/w was LOOKING FOR AFFAIR EVIDENCE when she found this.. she read it...evidently got scared by what it said (was a path back home) and did not like fact my xh hid it from her for 3 years now...like he had been reading it...and thinking on it? even the most wayward will have an effect with plan b ok?

it hurt alot hearing that...why? because I know now that my xwh has been reading that letter on and off for 3 years...and even went so far as to place letter and ring in a plastic baggie so it would be safe...he hid it in a safe place. and yes, it meant something to him. was very sad for me that day. I did cry.

but the point is this...both my sister and I did well doing the MB approach. both ws in this case are/were successful men. one came home after a torrid two month affair...and another did not...and got much worse. but if anybody can learn anything from what I went thru...what my family went thru...both my sis and I...then it's worth it.

Yesterday at work...my last patient...she was a thyroid cancer patient. I was waiting for the doc to do the consult (I stay in during consult and help get H/P info)...I had about 15 minutes alone with her. She was scared. She was about 60. she broke down crying almost immediately in front of me. I swear, God puts me in places so that I can help them with this...she said "I can live through this..but I am not gonna be well enough for a while to HELP MY DAUGHTER...she tried to kill herself yesterday."

I then hear how this poor woman's daughter is now in an outpatient facility because her WS is driving her to the point of insanity and considered suicide her only way out. they incidentally have two children.

I asked if her daughter had a plan? the mom said "what can you do? if a man wants to leave, they leave." I said....NOOOOOOO> There can always be a plan. I told her my story, little of my sister's, told her it could go either way...but that her daughter needed hope and love...and I wrote down name of a few books and told her D to lurk here and wrote down site.

The mom said "wow I can give her all this when she gets out tomorrow..." Mom goes in hospital tuesday...and she feels better because she is going to empower her daughter...and is going to support her 100 percent and the kids. The mom said she can beat the CA...she just didn't want to lose her family in the process...she loved her sil and daughter and grandkids.

Nobody can predict the future. but we can try to show you what worked and what did not.

If you heal and she returns, then we win here. a family wins.

but if she chooses negatively, then you will find a way to heal...and still win. You will do all you can to keep your kids in a safe and happy home. again it is a win.

and take heart, if she chooses unwisely...you will most likely know what will be the result of her affair...it will proceed according to the good words of the people here...