Dazed,
I am not dealing with an A (at least I have no proof) so I do not know the pain that comes from a WS coming and going between you and OM. I am dealing with other issues, depression and other issues.... So, I don't know if I would be able to follow plan A. Ok, maybe I am not qualified to give you any advice....if so then you can ignore me....but nevertheless, I'll tell you that I had a opportunity to have my H at home...I could have discussed it with him the day he said "I want a seperation"...it was the 3rd time in 3 months...I was hurt, very hurt and I thought, well I cannot stop him, it will just keep coming up.....so, I left the house for a couple of hours and when I came back He was gone.....I tell you, I regret that! I cannot go back and change that but I really wish I could....with him here I would have been able to do some plan A(when something like that - basically show him that I can be a better partner - which I now know I can!)

...instead I pushed him away with the hurt I felt and I LBed and he just pushed me further and now he is saying lets be friends....Now, I try to do best for me that I can, and when we see each other, I don't pressure him and just have mututal respect....ok, so my situation no where in compares to yours...but it is very painful to me...and if I could go back I would not have let my H go out that door that easily....So, my advice to you not to kick her out was coming from that........in your case, you have a Plan A......I read here a lot......and from what I gother you plan A for at least 6 months......

But as I said in my other post, it is up to you to decide whether her living at your house is 'toxic'....only you can know that......

Best,
Daisy

Dazed,

Have you thought of calling S.Harley?
It could not hurt to do that....you know each situation is different and from what I gother they do 'mold' plan A and plan B around each individual....

I know it costs money, but really at the end it is just 200 (or so ) to save your M....is it not worth it?

Lastly, as you know MB principles do not work with mental issues and addictions.....so even though I am not dealing with an A, I have nowhere to look, nowhere to get any help in what to do.....I am lost.....there is no stategy for me....I wish I had some plan...I make it up as I go....you got the Harleys and MB principles....sure it may not work...and sure it is hard work....but it has a good chance of working....if you want it....

Best to you....
Daisy

I totally agree with harley...I spoke with them twice...and tried to get my then wh to speak to them...

He knew I was a harley convert...he refused to speak to him btw.

now daisy, I think your wH is suffering from possibly a mental illness...signs and symptoms are all there...he may be suffering from that and a bit of wanting to be wayward.

I don't know.

IT is vague what you've said...but I am listening also.

If somebody is unsure there is always a sure fire way to find out..spend a little on a PI and have surveillance on the person suspected. You usually find out by having them trailed or watched on a saturday night...that's what they told me...and found out all I needed to know in 5 hrs. flat.

I don't know what part was vague...I tend to ramble on...sorry.

I guess I was trying to say that dazed has a chance to save his M by trying to follow the MB principles....there is some plan he can follow....that is all I was getting at...

As far as my case, I did not mean to confuse the issue by talking about me....sorry....I am in another boat all together it seams..and I have some days when I strugle since I do not have some plan to follow.....just doing cirles sometimes ...

peach... it is funny sort of, I was thinking about a PI yesterday...... I have mixed feelings about it....what if he is not doing anything and here I am 'snooping' .....moreover, since he said that all he wants is friendship he probably feels he can do what he wants anyway...would not call it an A....who knows......I'll think about the PI some more....just not sure yet....BTW, how much does it cost (if you don't mind me asking)...

Ok, enough tread jacking by me....sorry dazeds..

Daisy

JP,
I went back and edited all references to you in my posts... I was out of line in that I shouldn't have mentioned whether or not your advice was valid based on whether or not your marriage was restored... I really didn't mean it that way...

I guess if you were here in the "old days" you'd understand more...the veterans never EVER told me to "kick my WS to the curb" that was the comment that got me upset...as a result I got angry... not really at you... but in the fact that this type of advice was NEVER used when I arrived here, hurt, already angry, confused, and desperate (hence, my handle name here PLEASE HELP)

Things were a little more loving and positive and more accurate in the MB principals... 6 month Plan "A".....Plan "B" when you were at the VERY end of your rope to preserve love...... and last and ONLY when you really did not want your WS in your life and BOTH plans had no positive effect... Divorce.


I'M SURE it's to soon for DAZED to do a Plan "B" NOT because of my great MB success (I'm probably the biggest loser that ever came to MB based on what you THOUGHT I was implying about you....... more on that later....) or that I have superior knowledge on this terrible trial.....but simply I BELIEVE in MB principals and know they work (97% success rate I think) if done "by the book" and THAT is the only advice I've given to DAZED.... no opinion... just MB principals...I really have less credibility than anyone here so I keep MY thoughts out of my advice.



NOW.... if you had written a post like you did on.....#2849106 - 10/29/05 08:35 AM

I would have never responded like I did.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You have to admit that this post was a little more "MB" than "kick her to the curb".... show her the BLACK whatever... etc,... that I responded to.... in this post you tell him to do a good Plan "A" FIRST.... then.... etc....


WE KNOW... about cake-eating (sorry I still don't like that one for some reason....) and all that..... WE KNOW the pain that this can cause... and of course the anger....

I believe DAZED needs us to keep him positive and detached enough to filter out all the "NOISE" his heart is sending to his brain and calm him down...not "pump these feelings up"


Yes... there is a point that he MAY need to do a Plan "B" but according to Harley..NOT ME.... he hasn't done enough of a Plan "A" to be effective yet....

If he was here saying....."I can't go on" I don't want to live"....." OR... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />I HATE THE BI**CH and want to run her and OM over with my truck....
Then JP.... I'm right there with you telling him to go to "Plan "B".... or Divorce.... really.... THEN I'm with you....


BUT... his WS is HOME... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />yes... vacillating between him and OM BUT REALLY... Isn't that what they ALL do?? Harley knows this is what they do... DAZED has a better shot than most...and seems to have the stamina at this point.


When I went through this.... I would have taken them BOTH in (WS and OM) at one point just to be able Plan "A" my WS... not really..... but I would have taken the chance under most every other circumstance...


For me... (here's a SAD SAD thing I'll admit) After my W left, I found a flannel nightshirt she would wear that she left behind... it still smelled like her. When things got sooo bad for me.... I would put it on my pillow at night.... and I SWEAR... that when I would breath in...... and smelled her perfume....the pain would go away.... ONLY on the intake...when I exhaled... that awful awful pain returned...
Pretty sad huh? (Go easy on me on that one...) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


So... I think he should keep her home and do the best "A" he can.... WHILE he can.... she's there for a reason maybe SHE doesn't even know....
You and I JP have the same goal here... TO HELP DAZED SAVE HIS MARRIAGE FROM THIS DEMON.... maybe a little of you and a little of me and a LOT from the others will do it!!


OK.... sorry this was so long...I promised I'd tell you why I am probably the most UNSUCCESSFUL MB'er of all time.... I'll do it this way.... I added my story at the end..... GOD BLESS... FRANK

Dazed,

Gonna jump in here and throw in those 2 pennies I have set aside for tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

1. A WS in the home isn't always a good thing.
2. If plan A is done correctly and there still is a WS, then going to plan B with exit papers being given to the Ws is a good plan. (check this one out with Jennifer C @ MB).

If you check out Lor's story, you will find that her WS lived with PT. False recoveries happened several times. Her H came back but only after she did what she needed t/d for herself.

In my case, after the WS moved out.... I hurt and wanted him back. He came back as a WS and that was worse..... I sent him back out, several times. More than anyone should have to endure.

My point is that it w/b better for the BS to take the higher road ASAP. The criteria s/b a good plan A s/b done. Once that is out of the way, then plan B (which recommends separation) is a viable option. Pushing the WS out there to the real world c/b more beneficial than allowing her to enable her to use the BS, family and friends to enable the A.

Many of us Bs' take too long before executing a good plan B. The time lost makes us tired and weak. It makes us lose our love as well. As a result, more of us push for going to plan B sooner than later. Of course, a good plan A is a prerequisite.

As for a WS who claims suicide..... or anylike threats..... all would do well t/d as your MIL did. The police are fully aware of WS types. All threats are t/b taken as genuine. The more they do this, the longer their record gets. You know what? That's the WS doing it to themselves. Your MIL should feel no regret from her call. She did the right thing. I know, I had to do that also.

BTW, JP is giving you an example of what tough love really means. She has lived through a lot and survived. Her M failed not because of her actions but because her XH still has his head up his [censored]. Not good t/b married to somone who can't see his own feet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Where are you Dazed? U alright?

I had been wanting to get on here and write to you Peachy and PH. I wish I had more time to write to you both. For now I will have to keep it short.
I want to say that there is one common thread we all share. We have all experienced the horrible experience of having our hearts ripped out by the one we love and trusted. Our lives changed forever because of it. Please Help: Your words of inspiration and taking a loving approach does make sense to me. I agree with the importance of a good plan A. In my sitch, my marriage has been full of problems and major love busters. Reading the basic concepts made me cry. You see I allowed my marriage to drift for 3 years. My wife slowly gave up on me. She has been in love with this other man for nearly 8 months now. Keep in mind this was 6 months I had no idea what was going on. For the last 6 months I have screwed up really really bad. The entire time she kept testing me, and I failed almost all of them not knowing it was really a trap. Every time i would fail her love for him would strenghten. It was so unfair of her to do this to us. I feel so stupid that i did not see all the signs of her affair. I had so many chances to stop it. She even left me clues so I would stop her. I don't have all day to go over all the tragic history of how I ended up here.
One poster said that every WS acts the same displays all the same characteristic of addiction and fog. However, only the BS really knows all the details and there WS. This makes it difficult to know exactly how and when to impliment the MB tools. I agree the MB tools are the best weapons we BS's have to fight for out marriages.
The plan A deal is so tough to take. Especially for a man to impliment when my first thought is to be protective of my wife and fight for her. She has always know how to push my buttons, and become angry. I have tried so very hard not to commit love busters but it's so hard. The loving her part is easy. It's the time when I know she is with him doing god only knows that I just can't take. My emotions just run wild. This is when I have been at my worst. How do I just set at home and do nothing? When I know where there at. That is so hard for me.
Here is my update:
I have stood down with my Plan B letter. It's signed and sealed and ready to rock. I think it is written very very well. Please Help you have really made me think with your post. Especially the one about filing for a divorce.
Here it is. My wife is in love with another man. I know on here you all call it addiction and fog. She thinks she is in love, okay. Because of her love for him she is doing all the stuff that a WW does. I mean text book.
The question is how do I win her back. My wife does not, and has never responded positively to pressure. She runs from it. Every time I have pressured her she had ran to him. Every time I show her love she stops and thinks. Usually breaks down and cries. Telling me she is trash and not worthy of my love and to stop.
The night I caught the two of them in the parking lot after she lied to me saying she promised to not see other man. Well things have gotten a lot worse since then. That was a major love buster. I guess i was suppose to set at home knowing she was with him. So hard to do. I know; If I don't do this right she will be with him and not be coming home.
Okay, she has progressed to the stage of with draw from me. She is avoiding any contact or conversation with me. Saturday morning she approached me and asked if I would agree to a divorce. I told her I would not support any idea that would not make all three of us happy, and tearing our family in two pieces was not an option. I told her I would not discuss divorce or talk of other man. I did very good until the part where she told me our marriage was nothing more than a mistake. She only wanted to marry me to make up for having aborted our first child three years earlier when we were 16. got to run be back later.

HI Dazed.,,,
Good to here that you are, for the most part.. OK...


You sound really down.... DON'T GIVE UP!!
[color:"red"]"The plan A deal is so tough to take. Especially for a man to implement when my first thought is to be protective of my wife and fight for her. She has always know how to push my buttons, and become angry. I have tried so very hard not to commit love busters but it's so hard." [/color]

YOU'RE DARN RIGHT IT'S HARD... D*M NEAR IMPOSSIBLE!!
BUT YOU CAN DO THIS!!

When it gets hard... COME HERE.... YELL HERE.... VENT HERE.... PUNCH THE WALL HERE.... CRY HERE...

We are here for you... we'll calm you down and keep you focused...we've done this....so can you.

[color:"red"]"How do I just set at home and do nothing? When I know where there at. That is so hard for me.
" [/color]
These are the hard times.... that's when you take your daughter somewhere special or just watch TV with her and draw strength from "YOU doing the RIGHT thing"
Take this time to work on yourself... just forget about what they are doing... because... as hard as this is to believe... OM IS NOT THE PROBLEM AND IS REALLY NOTHING.... NOTHING......he is an ILLUSION.....
Why do you think your WS is a wreck right now? It's because she sees you changing and she LIKES the changes... if you were like this before there would be no OM....(not trying to beat you up here brother <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) And if she DIDN'T love you.... she wouldn't be a wreck and would have filed... HATE ISN'T THE OPPOSITE OF LOVE.... INDIFFERENCE IS.....


[color:"red"]"I have stood down with my Plan B letter. It's signed and sealed and ready to rock. I think it is written very very well. " [/color]

Good... have it ready but hold it until you are at the END... until you have VERY little left in your love bank.... just like Harley says... (can you call him BTW?) why don't you post it and we can all look at it and make sure there are no LB's or begging (no offence)


[color:"red"] "Please Help you have really made me think with your post. Especially the one about filing for a divorce.
Here it is. My wife is in love with another man. I know on here you all call it addiction and fog. She thinks she is in love, okay. Because of her love for him she is doing all the stuff that a WW does. I mean text book.
" [/color]

Good... I'm glad I made you think...(got to have one of you two thinking LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I PROMISE... you are right she only "thinks" she's in love..she isn't and being "textbook" is a GOOD sign... that means MB principals have a better chance of working...



[color:"red"]"The question is how do I win her back. My wife does not, and has never responded positively to pressure. She runs from it. Every time I have pressured her she had ran to him. " [/color]

Right.,... that's why you don't PUSH you PULL in this situation. If you pressure...she WILL run....
Think of this... if you had a Dog... that you rarely hugged and kind of ignored...as long as the dog was fed and watered and not hit...the dog would trust and love you right?
Now...no matter how much the dog loved and trusted you if you RAN up to it suddenly and grabbed it and loudly proclaimed your love to it.. what would it most likely do? Probably.. struggle away at least.. and maybe even bite you at worst...or run a few feet away with it's tail between it's legs and watch you and sniff the air to see what the heck was going on...
Now this dog would under normal circumstances trust you with it's LIFE... but because you're acting DIFFERENTLY than you normally do... the trust is not there.

That's what happens with a GOOD Plan "A".... Your WS has (by your account) been ignored...now.... you are acting differently...she NATURALLY doesn't trust it.. and with OM telling her it's an act.... she REALLY doesn't...
That's why Plan "A" takes a while... you WILL NOT SEE THE RESULTS ON THE SURFACE... she will continue to HIDE it's affects from you.... but... it's slowly chipping away at her hurt.. just like you ignoring her slowly chipped away at her love and trust...

[color:"red"] "Every time I show her love she stops and thinks. Usually breaks down and cries. Telling me she is trash and not worthy of my love and to stop.
" [/color]

NOW... THIS IS IMPORTANT....I've seen this be very healthy not only for the WS but for the BS...
When you DO talk about your marriage... TELL HER THE THINGS YOU'RE LEARNING ABOUT WHAT YOU DID WRONG IN YOUR MARRIAGE.... I KNOW this is hard.. since there is NOTHING you did that deserved this or compares with what SHE is now doing...it's unfair... but remember.... she was hurting for a LONG time...


Why? Well here's what I think.... if someone had wronged me.. and I told them what they did and they agreed... what did I gain?... it just may be an act to get me back... BUT... if the person figured it out all by themselves and apologized to me BEFORE I brought it up.... I would believe that person really did..."get it" and believe they really had changed and it wouldn't EVER happen again/...
This will help your WS because she won't feel like a bad person for what she's doing now (Believe it or not you don't want that... that kills self esteem and will keep her away...) She will understand the difference between being a "bad person" and making "bad choices"


And as much as it's hard for you to see right now... it will help YOU because fast forward a year or so after you and your Wife start to rebuild your love YOUR anger may surface and if you have this understanding (I know you do know some things but keep digging... this is part of YOUR growth) your anger will subside... and you never know...


Like in my case... I DUG and DUG and like you,.. I cried when I realized how I hurt her... but there was one thing that really got to her... she had made a Glamour photo for me... I hated it.. and I told her that... I didn't like all the make-up it just wasn't HER....I used to put it face down and stick it in the draw etc.....
Then I realized the she went to a LOT of trouble to make that for me,....JUST for me... but what did I do... I told her I hated it...

Well.... she was gone and I started to look for it... I couldn't find it...so I called her and asked her where it was... she said WHY... YOU HATE IT REMEMBER... I told her what I had learned.... she cried....and said I couldn't have it back... I offered her ANYTHING I owned for it... ANYTHING... she said it was too late...
I found out later.... IT WAS ON OM'S DESK!!! SHE GAVE IT TO HIM!!!
BUT/..... she told me later that, THAT single bit of growth convinced her to come home because she was sure that I "got it" and she trusted that I had changed....I GOT THE PHOTO BACK....and still have it as a reminder...

[color:"red"]"I did very good until the part where she told me our marriage was nothing more than a mistake. She only wanted to marry me to make up for having aborted our first child three years earlier when we were 16. got to run be back later.
" [/color]

OK... this is the single hardest thing to do..
DO NOT REACT.... DO NOT REACT.... DO NOT REACT.....
This is all WS fog... I PROMISE...
One of the things that helped me when I first got here was a thread that listed all the terrible things the WS say...
Like "I love you but I'm not IN love with you... THAT is the one that hurt me the most....
THEN... I read that almost EVERY WS had said that and that it was WS fog-babble
My WS went from "I have been unhappy for 2 years" to..... I haven't felt loved for MOST of our Marriage... to......
I knew it was over when we moved to RI...
WE HAD MOVED TO RI 14 YEARS BEFORE HER AFFAIR... and I remembered SOOOOO MANY REALLY GREAT GREAT GREAT TIMES FOR MANY YEARS AFTER RI!!

So see....they are justifying... fogging... and lying to themselves....so DO NOT REACT... COME HERE... HURT HERE.... YELL HERE.....don't fall for it... it's NOT TRUE!!!

GOTTA GO... sorry for getting long winded... GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS... FRANK

Frank,

I just had to post a reply...
...good to see you still posting.

I just got back to the forums a few days ago.

Good Luck with all you do!

You can see my update at mypost.

Jim/NSR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Come-on Dazed.... Stay with us... what's happening?? U OK?

Frank,
Your words are so very inspirational. I totally agree with you. I decided Sunday that I would go 100% at finishing my Plan A. With no angry outburst, demands, basically all the love busters. The word ironic continually keeps coming to mind. There are things happening to me at just the most weird times. I pray every day for my wife and daughter, some times several times a day. Maybe Some of the things happening are related.
I will kind of recap the last couple of days. Saturday she asked me to agree to a divorce. When I told her I would not speak of it and told her I loved her she became angry. She said a lot of hurtful things to me and daughter again heard her and asked her to please stop. WW appologized to daughter and promply left. Actually just walked off. Did not take her car or nothing. I figure she walked to the store located a few blocks away and had OM pick her up.
Saturday night while daughter was at a friends I had some time to think. Going over our entire relationship and all the things I have done wrong. Understanding how I failed my wife I think is important to do an affective and sincere Plan A. I also spent time reviewing MB principles, like the basic concepts and the three states of mind of a relationship. The story of how many men create rooms of there life and only let there wife into a couple of them fits me exactly. That is the single largest mistake I made in our marriage. I did not make me wife a part of everything I was doing. This caused all the disconnection of our friendship and finally lead to neglect that broker her heart. I thinkg this is the most important part of a marriage. Living life together side by side as equalls, friends, best friends. That is what creates love and a bond between two people. We had this when we first started out. We were inseprable. We lived as extentions of each other. I prayed many times that night for help. One thing that came to me was I needed to give my wife her rings back. When she stopped wearing them I became angry and when I found them I took them. I placed them in an envolope and put them away in our storage box of pictures and keep sakes we have collected through out our marriage. I decided to offer just to give them to her to keep. Not ask her to wear them, just to have. Later that night when WW came home I could see she was hurting and when I looked at her I could see tears in her eyes. She came up stairs and stood in the hall way for a few minutes. I came out of my room to see what she was doing. She paused and went on to the guest room and laid down to go to bed. I went in and ran my fingers through her hair. With tears in her eyes she starting appologizing for all the hurtful things she said and that she did not mean them. She said she was so sorry for hurting me and that i was right about everything. She can not look in the mirror at herself. She feels like trash and is now a horrible person that I don't deserve and I should punish her. I told her I loved her. I then placed the rings in her hand and told her I had unfairly be holding these with out her knowing where. They are yours and you should have them. She thanked me and said she had been missing them so much. She grabbed me and held me tight. She cried and cried as she repeated her self over and over of how sorry she is. I comforted her for awhile and went off to my own room. After laying there for a few minutes I realized that I should go to her. When i went back in the room she was crying again. Again I comforted her by running my fingers through her hair and rubbing her neck. When my arm became tired she grabbed my hand and pulled my arn around her. For the first time in many months I held her all night and she held on to me. Don't worry. Absolutely no sex.
Sunday she left again for most of the day. When she returned she was again with drawn from me. Avoiding conversation and would not allow me to do anything kind for her. Monday morning she emailed me a mean message saying the OM called her first thing telling her that I was stalking him and she wanted me to leave him alone. The deal is he seen my truck parked two blocks from his apartment at the re-hab center where my pastor works as a counselor. Loser OM thought i was looking for him. I wrote WW back telling her why I was where I was and nicely asked her to please defend the man that loves her, me. Maybe LB or not, but I took the opp. to tell her that I thought OM was again out to make me the bad guy in an attempt to win her like a toy. Told her he was the one out to get me and take you away just like he has been for months. Just like him calling her a couple dozen times on our 13th anniversary way back in April. Also the false police report about me vandelizing his truck and making her think I did it. She replied with I'm so sorry! Your are right and I feel so horrible. I'm so sorry for ruining your life.
I replied back. Read what I wrote earlier again. Just think about it.
I have a request: Can you tell me if you were to write a perfect story of how the rest of our lives would be like how would it go? Please think about this and write back.
NO REPLY.
Monday night:
After handing out candy which the WW was uncomfortable about doing. She did not want to greet people to badly as they came to the porch with there kids. In years past she really looked forward to holloween and seeing all the kids.
I guess she felt bad about seeing kids with there parents having fun and being together.
She retired early to take a bath and go to bed. After sending daughter to bed for the night, I went in to check on her. She was cold and only covered in a sheet on top of bedding. I went and got her a blanket and as I covered her she began to cry again. She told me she was sorry for everything. At this time I asked her to just listen to me. I told her about how I "get it" and understand what I did wrong. I just laid it all out. I went on about everthing I did wrong in our marriage. It was me that did not include her into all of my life. I'm running short on time again so I will have to stop the detailed report. However, I hit the nail right on the head. She was very touched by my confession of understanding. I was right on target, with everything I said. She felt i understand her pain of what happened and how I made her hurt. This was very hard on me as well. I was choked up many times, just thinking about how I hurt her as I spoke. After wards she told me she loved me and we held each other. I comforted her as see went off to sleep. I did not stay with her. Got to go. Be back soon.
dazed

Hey guys sorry about the long post of details.
Okay, Monday night. Yes, with out her telling me what i did wrong, I professed to knowing how we went wrong and that almost all our problems was all tied to us not sharing our lives and living as partners. She totally agreed and by her reactions she new I got it. I gave her many compliments about various things. Everything I admired about her. Everything I was proud of her for. Her talents and abilities that make her special. Also, talked about our future but I did not want to focus on it. I wanted her to know that there is still a way for us to be happy and demostrate I knew the way and was already working on it. Dwelling on talk that makes her choose now seems to not get me anywhere good with her. So, I told her that I was not going to just up on us, and hand her over to another. I hope and dream for the day when we are holding each other and enjoying life and today is just a memory of when we re-discovered our love for each other. I told her that no matter what other people think, it's only us that matters. (She is embarrased about the exposure to our families). She thinks they will forever she her as a ******. This really, really bothers her. Okay, I told her I could not make her love me or make her stay. That was something she has to want on her own. I believe in forgiveness and redemption. I said several other things to show her a way back if she so chooses.
This morning went in woke her up for the day. I decided to just ly down and hold her. To my surprise she reached for my hand and pulled my arm around her. We snuggled for 15 to 20 minutes before I had to get into the shower. There was tears in her eyes as i had to get up and get ready for work. Once out of the shower she approached me again crying and said it was all her fault and that I was making this really really hard for her. She cried the entire time she was in the shower. I gave her a kiss good bye when I left for work and told her I had checked her car over and had already put my cell in the front seat so she could call if it broke down on her way out of town today. She had to go 30 minutes to the next city and attend the custody hearing for my sister to obtain custody of niece12 back. WW told me near tears, thank you and I feel so guilty.
She has emailed me and called me to tell me about the hearing and some small talk.
So that's wear I stand. Still in limbo but really trying to finish up strong with my Plan A. I have to remind myself constantly what my goal is and to not get caught up in another love buster. Lord knows I'm good at that part. I really believe I have to establish some consistancey with my Plan A before going to B. I think I have done some good things but some LB's too. The other morning when she got me up set and I started in on how great other man is may have scored a little bit as well. Do you remember the notes I took from OM's soon to be EXW that WW found. They covered everything, from his sexual pref's to out look on kids, job history, character flaws, personality, social habits, interest, family, etc.
Well OM quit his job at WW's work place. Not sure if I had mention this nugget of info. It has had some impact on WW. Boy toy is no longer at arms reach. The weasle has some how got his lunch break already moved to 1PM so he can see her, but at least he in not in front of her all day. Back to my point. OM's EXW said he can't hold down a job and is financially unstable. Including bad credit. I reminded WW that OM has just made his wife right on the money with that one. Scratch that off the list. WW did not reply to that one. Not knowing when to stop, I asked what else on the list can we check off at this point? We know the kids things is also on the money, don't we. No reply. Going a step further, I asked well I bet he is probably now pressuring you for physical stuff by now too. She paused and said do you know who you are talking to? I have made it clear to him that I'm not going ready to have sex with him. I paused, and said so you had to make it clear to him huh. Scratch that one off the list as well. he he For what's it worth, I'm hoping that OM's efforts start working in my favor.

Frank, thanks for your apology...I do appreciate it.

I am a champ. and my xwh will always regret his decisions.

why do i believe so much in plan B? because my xh only came (and briefly to senses) because of a harsh b.

in years past, I think we did a for too long. far too long. I did the long plan a and it almost took me to my knees. far too long. I should have gone dark much earlier. but then again, I have one of the worst mb spouses of all time.

BASICALLY...IT'S THIS...like going to your doc...what medication she/he prescribed for your four or three years ago might not be best for you today...if a newer and better drug is now on the market which can heal you faster and with less pain.

DAZED:

I am sorry. I keep reading more of the same stuff she is doing.

again, here is einstein: definition of insanity is doing same thing over and over and expecting outcome to be different.

she is playing both you and om.

she is coming and going as she pleases.

she cries, wants to be held, is sorry, loves you both, and yet is saying NOW she wants a DIVORCE.

If you want your w back, you need to rethink your options I think.

Many of us suggested plan B to you...to force the ww to see what life is without you for love, support, and en's. plus she will upon leaving have to leave behind her child too. that way she gets to "play house" and "play divorce".

and with an unstable om and that sitch, it is destined for failure.

I am just seeing more of the same...and a cycle of abuse from the ww that is horrid for your kids and you...yes now you to keep on enduring.

this is getting hard for me. hard to read. I hurt for you and your family...but you're not doing anything that will make ww want to change her ways.

she has to have the motivation.

what motivation is there when you keep giving her a slice of cake with a cherry on top? I mean, she's sleeping here...there with om...and then back home with you...what gives?

Dazed, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />!!!

YOU ARE GETTING REALLY GOOD AT THIS!! I AM VERY VERY PROUD OF YOU MY FRIEND!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Your posts were long but very good to read all the info... it helps us see the whole picture better THE WALLS ARE STARTING TO CRUMBLE.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's funny... as I was writing to you to tell her what you did wrong you were DOING IT!! Weird huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

See.... how she has hope in her eyes for you guys as she starting to see that "you get it"?

I am VERY hopeful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />for you guys at this point... the wanting you to hold her is VERY VERY strong in my eyes....

You really are "Rookie of the Year" in my eyes!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SOOOO many really good things in your post I can't even reply to them all.... here are the highlights....

GREAT PLAN "A" stuff:

Telling her YOUR part in this (therefore relieving her of some of the DESTRUCTIVE guilt feelings that may make her "just go for it" with OM to "justify") That was great.....good job!!

Holding her and not trying to lead to sex.... TOUGH....I know... but the right move right now... of course if SHE starts it... GO FOR IT... IMHO.. she IS your Wife!!

Leaving her the cell phone and checking her car.... AWESOME..!!

Doing the Halloween thing with her.... GREAT.... whether she shows it or not.... that will be a good memory for you guys someday...

OK.,.,.. really.... you are doing sooooo good.... just a little tweaking.....

It's OK to tell her what you're learning... but try and stay away from "Preaching" and "Selling" You have a good product.... YOUR FUTURE MARRIAGE.... But it's not the time to start "Overloading" her with how it "could or will be" Poor baby is confused enough at the moment... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Let's not explode her brain....
Remember... it's about FEEEEEELINGS.... not words.... Let her start FEELING comfortable and safe with you... Let her start FEELING things will be better....

Oh.. before I forget... a BIG BRICK WALL for recovery is the family knowing "what happened" Like my Brother hates my W now... he told me before if I ever took her back he would NEVER SPEAK TO ME AGAIN.... to protect me.... You'll have to do what I had to do.... go back and put out the fire.... tell your/her family what you are leaning about your part in this... you don't have to do it now... (You have enough work ahead) but if it gets ugly... you have to take some of the blame off of WS.... I would (at the right moment) tell WS you plan to do this....(BTW it was great that you told WS that YOU AND HER AND DD were the MOST IMPORTANT things...)

DO NOT COMPARE YOURSELF WITH OM....(He is NOTHING compared to you... NOTHING... SMOKE.... AN ILLUSION....NOT REAL you are real....her HUSBAND... FOR A LONG LONG TIME!!) DO NOT PUT HIM DOWN or POINT OUT HIS FAULTS ( He is her friend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> she WILL defend her "friend" and...it makes her feel stupid and you want her to feel good remember?) Believe me.... it's really not about him...


THIS IS IMPORTANT... this is NOT OVER... by a LONG SHOT.. (sorry...) She will vacillate back and forth.... BUT.... think of it this way,...

She's lost at sea in a storm trying to find her way home... she has no map.....she has no instruments
On one side she has you (her Lighthouse beacon) shining a light towards home.... BUT.. she has OM yelling in the darkness "Don't follow the lighthouse!!!" "Remember, you crashed the last time you went that way?!!!" "Go this way!!!"

If you start "teaching...and preaching" (yelling in the darkness too) she will stay confused..... All you can do is be a CONSTANT BEACON OF LOVE AND TRUTH.... (no LB's... no angry outbursts.,,, etc..) And even if she goes one hundred yards towards you and 50 yards back and 100 hundred yards toward you and 50 yards back..... she would find her way home..... right?

She WILL say awful things... she WILL do awful things... she WILL ask for a D (then take it all back) she will cry... she will yell and scream.... (so will you... BUT ONLY HERE RIGHT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

It is a roller coaster ride like you'll never experience in your ife <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(if we could re-create it we'd be RICH!! LOL) Ups and downs.... good and bad.... ying and yang..... BUT... it CAN be done.... it takes a LOT of love and a LOT of forgiveness and a LOT of patience and a LOT of tears....and a WHOLE LOT of strength but... it CAN be healed.

This is your time.. your WS has already suffered through HER pain for a long time.... so now....you BOTH have to heal.....a little at a time... two steps forward, one step back....


YOU'RE DOING FINE... GREAT REALLY.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />KEEP US INFORMED AND DO NOT REACT.....DO NOT REACT......DO NOT REACT......DO NOT REACT......DO NOT REACT!!!! JUST LOVE HER AND BE HER "REAL" FRIEND.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS... FRANK

Sorry Dazed,

I had to add these CAUSE I LOVE IT!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
[color:"red"] For the first time in many months I held her all night and she held on to me. [/color]

BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE.... I KNOW HOW GOOD THAT FELT!!

[color:"red"]she told me she loved me and we held each other.
[/color]

NICE... THAT'S STRONG....

[color:"red"] To my surprise she reached for my hand and pulled my arm around her. We snuggled for 15 to 20 minutes before I had to get into the shower. There was tears in her eyes as i had to get up and get ready for work.
[/color]
THE WALLS ARE COMING DOWN LITTLE BY LITTLE... GOOD PROGRESS IN MY EYES... REMEMBER... EXPECT THE BEST.... PREPARE FOR THE WORST....
THAT'S IT..... You made my day,..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS. FRANK

Peach- Frank:
Yes, I agree about providing motivation to change the situation. No one wants to live in the situation were in. This is obvious, just look at the letter WW wrote me this morning. The WW is ready to move in a direction just to get off center. Most people choose the path of least resistance. I think that is what she is ready to do. Also, OM's divorce will be final next monday. I think OM and her are planning her final escape after his court day Monday. I'm not sure but this is my feeling.
What if the path or method to provide that change is not clear or not attractive? My plan A attempt is not finished!
I don't think the path back home to looks very attractive to her, that's why I held off on the Plan B. I know OM has made her all kinds of promisses while running me into the ground.
She does not see a way for us to work this out. She does not want to face the challange of our problems. To her it is easier to walk away and just start over. How do i show her there is a way home that she will want? She knows I love her and want her. She knows there is still an open door to come home. However, the guilt of her actions has her thinking we will never overcome this and we are damaged forever. She thinks there is a great fun filled life out there waiting for her. Okay, I see this a mid-life crisis thing as well. We meet at 12 years old. Started dating at 16. Broke up for six monts at 18 and married at 20. I think she is so curious to what else is out there, it's hard for her to really buy into coming home to me. Other man has also helped paint her a picture of how I have made her nothing more than a house mother and have suffocated her life draining her for all she is worth.

Please read this letter and give me your adivce.


BS-
the thing is-at this time in my life
& our relationship-or what there is of one-- I feel nothing but guilty to know how much you "love" me. I feel sad for hurting you & making you sad. I wonder every minute if I am making all the wrong decisions. I pray for help-but get nothing.I wonder if me filing for divorce will be the biggest mistake I could ever make. It seems wrong-but in a way right.
I feel horrible for thinking it's what I want- & for thinking about that final day when it will no longer be me & you.I don't know what to do.
I constantly have it all in my mind.I don't sleep- I feel sick continually. I worry so much about Kaylee- I know I am ruining her-she feels such hate & sadness for me.
It's hard for me to look at her, but I want to hold her & squeeze her & never let her go. I have felt that way for you too. I'm so scared & sorry. I feel I have let you down & am ruining so many people's lives. I can't win. There is no way anyone comes out good in this situation. I will with no mistake pay someday so much for what I have done.

HI Dazed,
I'm on the way out the door so I need to keep it short...

I think your Plan "A" is working... a month ago she was SURE leaving you for OM was right...now... she sees it as potentialy the biggest mistake of her life...
The thing holding her back I believe is that OM has kept his part of the bargin...he's D his W... so...she's thinking she ruined his life.. (my situation is similar) HOW CAN SHE NOT.."FOLLOW THROUGH"?

Don't discuss the letter unless she does.... then I think it's time again to "GENTLY" reassure her that staying is right and even though OM is D his BS that isn't a reason for her to jump into anything... I mean... if they are "ment to be" (I know... yuck) then what's a couple of months anyway right?

and maybe... you could "GENTLY" tell her that if he can do it to her cheat....lie.... Divorce...(OM's W) he can "Do it to you" maybe... right?

You guys have a great history... (Did you ever see the movie "The Story of US?? if not RENT IT...!!) History is strong.... you have DD.... she obviously doesn't approve.... THAT is VERY strong...

Hang in there... it will be hard because of OM "Keeping his part" of the bargin... BUT....I really believe given a choice... she would stay....

Maybe you could ask her this (If she's in a talking about you guys mood....)
IF you could have a wish... would it be that you and I move past this....WITHOUT... GUILT... ANGER... AND PAIN...and have a PERFECT Marriage... were we BOTH love each other PERFECT..... OR would it be that for you and OM?




Gotta go.. sorry... GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS.. FRANK

Frank-
I just had to reply to that letter. In print that is the most she has been willing to write about her feelings. Here is my response(letter below). Maybe I over done it.... This was brought on this morning by her comments to me. She slept on the couch again. I woke her this morning and first thing she said was; "no ones going to die if were not together right". I simply walk off and went up to our room and closed the door. Later before she left she got angry with me. What I'm I suppose to do? You now want to do everything right and I'm suppose to just through my arms around you and say okay and it's all over. I just can't do that. I wish I could but I can't. You lived your own life with out me and now you love me and want to start over? Our life was all about you, and I have never had nothing that was mine, never done nothing for me. You need to realize that there may never be me and you ever again. She left for work.
Minutes after getting to work she called looking for me. I did not answer. She sent me an email. I'm sorry I'm ruining your life. You know me, I'm sad for making you sad and I need to let you know that. I guess I'm ruining everyones life now and I wish I was no where now.

I had sent her an open invite to join me at the park for lunch today. She declined and said she was going to stay at work for lunch. I though atleast she was not seeing OM. Then I figured well she is a receptionist. He's probably got her on the phone. nice...
She called me during lunch break asking what my plans were for the evening. I had planned on doing several things with daughter. WW asked if she could go to he near by town and visit her old friend and meet me at home. Of course I said that sound good to me and we made some small talk. I thought the worst and hoped for the best. My evening was fun with daughter and went really well until the daughters swim team coach gave me team physical papers to up date. The forms that the WW completed May 5th had OM's stamp and signature for the notary. That made me sick. I know she was seeing that basturd in late March, but his signature and notary stamp on my daughters swim team stuff really got me. Then got to thinking as daughter practiced. I had asked daughter why she quit swimming earlier in the summer. She said well dad how you like to practice every week night from 6 to 8 during the summer? WW told me they were only going two nights. I asked daughter did mommy stay for your practice? She said no she only dropped me off and was usually late picking me up. Then I remembered the WW was really really up set with daughter for quiting. Which was a shocker because WW has never been into sports. Now I know. That was her two hours of play time with OM that lived a 1/4 mile from the swimming pool. Jeeeezzzz.
So I did what I told my self I would not do. I drove by the basturds apartment. He was not there. Imagine that. WW was right on time meeting us at home. She had a wal-mart bag with a tv-vcr-video game connection adapter. I said how did you know what to get? Knowing WW is way stupid when it comes to electronics. She said she asked a wal-mart worker to help her. yeah right. OM's EXW said he was a electronic gadget guy. I snooped through her purse again and did not see any reciept or proof of purchase. I think OM even paid for it.
Reguardless I put on my best attitude and went on. While watching tv i made some jokes and was very kind to WW. She was also kind and friendly. Daughter 12 came down and all three of us joked around with her. That was a first in a long time that WW was playful with daughter and I at the same time. D 12 was very happy with WW and went set down and gave us both a big update about her life at school and swimming, band, music and other extra activities she's into.
This was our first family moment that was not painful sense D day. It almost seemed normal. pinch myself.
After getting daughter to sleep, me and WW watched tv for awhile. I gave her a surprise kiss on the fore head once and she looked confused. We spoke a little about nothing important, and I rubbed her head and neck. Gave her some little pecks her and there. While rubbing her shoulders she got very very warm and sweaty. She teared up, told me she felt sick. So I stopped. I guess it was guilt. I don't know. Maybe she was thinking of OM or something.
In a few minutes she calmed down and kind of moved her head over as to let me know she was okay with me rubbing her head. So I did. I said some loving words. I asked her not to sleep on the couch, but she said she did not deserve a bed. So, I'm up here writing to you all now.
Now that OM's D is final in less than a week, I really think that he is really starting to push her to get her end of the deal in motion. I think this is a very important time for me. What do I do. I wish that OM's soon to be EXW would not give that basturd nothing. She told me he's getting a check for 11,500. I worry that he has big plan's for the money going towards WW. Either financing her gifts, cars, living, or even divorce attourney. I also, wonder if OM asked WW to leave his apartment until final hearing date. If she's gone this time next week, I will know the answer to that one.
I feel bad for saying this but I pray that OM with really pull something to send WW running back home. That would really help me out. I know he is not all that, and the stuff his exw has said about him is just the opposite of what WW would normally like. I just hope and pray that WW will see what he really is before this goes much farther. I think he is smart enough to play her and pretend until he thinks he's won. Obviously he traded his wife of 8 years that he lived off of, in for my wife with out a second thought. He new she was married with kids. None of this mattered. He parked in front of my house stalking my wife, and now tells her I'm stalking him. He used his wife's cell phone to text message my wife. All while we were in bed with out spouses. Called 20 WW times the night of our 13th aniversary. Now I know why she became ill and we did nothing at all. He lies about me damaging his truck to get me in trouble with the police and WW. Yes, this all really gets me mad. This is why I ask god to make sure he gets his for what he has done. Maybe that is wrong of me.


(letter)
WS-
I'm so sorry, I have been in meetings all day and have another on the way and just seen your letter.
I wish I had time to call you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Yes, I know you are so tired of where were at. Me too.. It is painful for both of us. I'm sure your want to find some peace and normalcy in your life and so do I.

Please don't just do something you might regret just to being doing something. I agree we need to find a direction and start towards it.
I will share with you something that XYZ attourney told me about divorce.
He asked me to tell him about us and why I was there.
When I talked to him about us he said clearly you are still in love with her. And it sounds like she still loves you. He asked me one question to leave his office and think about before I answered. "Only proceed with a divorce when you are SURE you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER want your wife back again". He said you may file and before your final hearing you guys may decide to work on trying to save your marriage. But, unless you know in your heart of hearts you do not ever want this woman as your wife, do not file and spend my time and your money and regret it.

His last words were: I'm no counselor but, if you two are not violent people then I suggest you find a pro-marriage counselor and try to work things out before giving up. He made me think. I thought about what he said. I do still love you very much. I do still want you as my wife.

WS-Let me help you figure out what to do. Let's do it together. Yes, it's my fault for not making sure you were in every part of my life and me in yours. That is what I want WS. I'm so tired of being alone too. I want a marriage that we are as equals and friends together in every part of life. Sharing and living together with common goals and interest. This is what creates friendship and love that last forever. Yes, I got that part all wrong and I'm so sorry I'm so stupid and just now got it. I know you want this too. I understand your anger about what took so long. I guess I had to fail to see the way WS.

You may not see a path to get through this that in the end leads to us being together, but I do. I will help show you that it is not as scary and painful as you may think it looks now.
WW-Always remember and never forget I LOVE YOU.
Me.

What r u trying t/d with your letter? What is the objective?

Remember you don't want the OM to send the WS back. If a WS doesn't willingly relinquish their WS title, then any other type of return doesn't count. U w/b the last choice. Hurtful? Yes. So don't go that direction. Don't settle for less than you deserve.

IMHO, the WS doesn't deserve a letter like that. Don't spill your beans of what your lawyer said. It will only be twisted and used against you.

So what t/d? Well a stellar plan A followed by a swift and solid plan B w/b better 4 u.

JMHO,
L.