ORCHID- Last week I started researching for a good IC for Daughter and me. I called a friend of mine that is a pastor here in town and he gave me some good Christian refs. I have spoke with another IC here in town and was not impressed at all. Finding a good IC is like shopping for anything else I guess.
PEACHY- Thanks for your friendship. I need all I can get. I'm pretty alone with all this. I have never been a so called open person. That is one of my WW complants about me. I have many friends but no close friends. She was my only intimate friend I have ever had. Sharing of anything personal has always been hard for me. You and others on here have really helped give me support. I know I have frustrated many of you by being a dam good baker of cake. I have always been a person that looks ahead with a positive outlook. Almost to positive to the point I live in denile of the bad stuff that is right in front of me. I have choosen to focus so much on what can be and what is good that the bad or problems go unaddresed. That sums up my marriage. The bad and problems finally consummed my marriage. I simply avoided conflict in our marriage so many problems were aloud to fester and never really heal.

Yes, I felt bad that WW hurt D12's feelings. The one time I'm out of the room and wife pulls this. The thing is WW was really pretty good this past week with D12. As I said earlier we actually felt almost normal together a couple evenings last week. So D12 was opening herself back up to WW when she pulled this again. I guess I should have removed myself and D12 from the house when I got the feel that WW was unstable again.
I had more to write earlier but WW came back home and was headed write for my office. I had to quickly shut down. I almost feel guilty for hiding this from her. I must be off my rock.
So, she came home to blast me some more.
Another piece to the puzzle comith.
That low life sorry SOB is reverse plan B on WW. Can you _ucking believe it. She told me that OM told her he don't want to see her any more because this is all too crazy for him. Also, he is so scared of me that he can't sleep. He can't open his front door with out looking out the windows and is expecting me to jump him at any momemt. So, she says are you happy. Now I'm going to end up all alone. I cheated on you and we will never be the same. I take all responsiblity for ruining us. Now all your guilt tripping on me has made me crazy in my head. OM thinks I'm nuts and you are going to kill him.
She told me I should just take this like a man and move on with out her. I should just realize she is a ****** and no good to no one. Trash that I should have never married. She then begged me to let her go. If she got papers Monday would I please sign them. I could have everything other than her cloths. I told her I knew he was pressuring you. He _hits all over his wife, trades her in for you. She stops me and says he they were already over. He had a plan when we was going to leave her. I said thank you. You are right he had a plan to trade in his wife for you from day one. You shared our personal problems with him. You gave him the signs you were ripe for the taking while giving him the play book to your heart. He did have a plan and has followed it to a _ucking T. Now he has figured out how to pressure you into getting on with leaving me. Just think about it. The stalking in May and June when he was parked in front of our house. Then him telling police I vandalized his truck to get me in trouble and you mad at me. Then he tells you I'm following him around town and stalking him every night and he is scared of me. All lies and manipulation. If he is scared. He should have never picked a married woman to make his prize.
She sat with her head down for a few minutes. Then called me pathetic for being all emotional now. How could I sat there with tears in my eyes now. Where was this love when she wanted it. For 15 years she begged me for it and now I have it to give. After she cheated and everything is ruined. Asked how could I do this to her. I need to give it up because she will never be mine ever again. Then she walked off.
I cleaned my self up and went to go pick up daughter and her friends. We spent the after noon playing around at the mall. I got them some movies and took them all over to her friends house. This way if WW shows up tonight. D12 won't be in the line of fire again.

I will edit the PBL to legally look better.
What is the best time to give her and OM there letters?

LAST THING: While drive back from dropping off the kids, I seen WW driving right by OM's street. Do I just set here and if she comes home or not, do nothing? What do I do when she comes home in the morning? Knowing that OM is playing hard to get, I'm sure that WW will most likely be looking for OM like some sort of Prize patrol with herself as the prize. (makes me sick).

Now, why do you stay in this enviroment but more importantly why do you allow your daughter to stay in this enviroment?? I can only imagine the mental impact this will have on your daughter when she gets older. At some point you have to weigh the benefits versus the cost of this psuedo relationship you have with your wife. Hopefully before too much damage is done to your daughter.

Aside from getting a good IC for you and your D, I highly recommend that you get ahold of a good attorney that can make you aware of what your legal rights are and how best to use them to protect you and your D from your WW and her OM. Last but certainly not least, I highly advice you setup an appointment with Steve or Jennifer Harley to get his/her professional opinion regarding your situation. The more knowledgeable you are on all fronts, the better you will be in making wise decisions for or against the continuation of your marriage.

TMCM

what did i tell ya? that om was getting crazy from the craziness of your ww. she is driving him over the edge, hence my worries of safety of you and dd.

think about it...you are now literally trying to move ww around so she doesn't interact with your dd b/c ww is so toxic?

Your ww my friend...and I do pray for you and the family all the time...is a master manipulator.

On one hand, she is saying she wants permission to be with om and move on with l ife...and then she self depricates herself so her words will make you feel the guilt and shame...and not blame her.

that is her modus operandii. get it down and you see her babble to you. that is how she fog babbles to you.

here is an example I am making up:
ww: OM is scared silly of you. I can't blame him. who would want me when I am this messed up?
you: I want you. Your family wants you.
ww:you should just understand what you did that made me want to be this way...I have been so unhappy for so long now...it is over between us. can't we just get thru this and make it easy?
you: but we can get thru this together
ww: I am nothing but a (lut. You will be so happy when I am gone. Let's just get this over. You deserve somebody much more well...honorable than me.

Now you are sitting there feeling sorry for a ww who truly feels she is dirt?

Or does she really?

I think it is her way of manipulating everybody. She probably does same thing to om.

Truth here is she wants om. She wants the 11k of riches so they can hatch their grandiose little stupid plot together. He cheated on his w. He got the divorce and the giant settlement (rotflmao) of 11k. She is still trying to figure out how she can get with om, live as she wants, and get you to pay for her (YEA YOU MY FRIEND) and get her daughter's custody also.

that's why she has the brakes on for maybe 10 minutes every two or three days. that is all.

she's got to hit the bottom. you can't keep her doing this. it is emotional abuse my friend. you are a victim of her emotional abuse...biggest victim is the dd.

please get both of you into counseling.

I fear your ww is more than devious and toxic. I am worried her manipulations to the om could make hm dangerous to you or your family.

Normal people do normal things. normal people when placed in horrific situations like this one do NOT do normal things nor do they REACT NORMALLY either. One of you, either you or om is going to crack.

You OWE IT TO YOUR DD TO NOT BE THE ONE TO CRACK...and in saying so, you must establish a safe and secure home for your child.

I remember when my xh came to that point. I felt in my heart he was going to do something to hurt me...ever since I found out he had on the side (he did this a few years back) a limo service...and was caught out in buckhead at dinner with some girls...and two men who appeared to be his bodygaurds (really his limo drivers) but standing around him at the steakhouse like he was somebody famous or something. My best friend's husband spied them and called me right away. He was fearful my xh would do something to me b/c I had too much dirt on him. I remember for 2 days...while my son was away visiting my xh, that he was gonna hurt me. I slept with a knife under my pillow and had the police do drive by's...also alerted all my neighbors that thigns were taking a turn for the worse.

and within 3 days it happened...my xh broke into my home around the time I would usually get home from work...I had just gotten ds back from him day before...my neighbor who had been alerted saw him doing it and called the police. Week before this, my xh picked up my son from school on MY VISITATION time and said that I was acting cruel to him and that he would not let me have my son back until I came to my senses...I was in plan B and filing for D ok? I had attorneys called within the hour...and an emergency hearing set for the next day ...son was at my home next day.

See how desperate they get? My xh even took my son and imho...tried to force me to see his way of thinking or else he'd keep me from my son...he didn't get very far. And he spent a night in the slammer with the regular joes of the prison system...he deserved much much more imho.

see? this is how it happens.

they hit this point where imho...

THIS IS ONE OF MY ADULTERY THEORIES AND I STICK TO THIS...

WHERE REALITY AND FANTASY HAVE A HEAD ON COLLISION...

It is where the ws realizes that he cannot live the double life anymore. Something must give. And their anger and frustration at NOT being able to cakeeat anymore comes sizzling to the surface and something shocking will be the result.

It could be a nasty breakup with the op if the ws thinks there is more value in going home...or it could be that the ws must now apply more pressure in getting their way to make their dream of fantasy become the reality...financial pressure on bs, emotional pressure on bs, or abuse and violence on bs.

This is a scary line when they walk it. And you must be prepared. I would alert neighbors, have police do drive by's...and alert dd's school that there is a man who is having an active affair with your ww...that you may be scared he and ww might try to get your daughter at school or something. the ws can get pretty scary and desperate.

I am saying to stay smart. Think of her as a crazed crack addict who is now making your home unsafe because of her unsavory contacts (om)...who is also in theory her supplier of the crack and a fellow addict b/c he's a ws.

It is time to cease giving her money so she can get more crack. Let her and the fortune of a measley 11k supply her...for maybe 3 months at best.

Meanwhile, I'd get a bulldog attorney by tomorrow morning. I'd have separation papers served on her and locks changed and police and neighbors notified..as well as school...I'd say in papers that BECAUSE YOUR WW IS MENTALLY UNSTABLE RIGHT NOW and that because of her moral shortcomings and choice of inappropriate lifestyle, that you seek nothing short of full custody. Not divorce, just separation.

I'd pack her bags, and have them on front door with copy of plan B letter. Then no contact whatsoever when she gets served or what else. You just have to get some peace around your home! You have to protect yourself, your assets, but above all else your daughter and your sanity.

If what happens is as I believe will happen, ww will be back. I'd also contact company and ask if om works there..if so, let them know that ww is applying for a job there and that she is actively having an illicit affair iwth om...their employee.

Time for hardball...tough but loving hardball.

She will crash. I predict within 3 months if not by christmas.

This time is now about your daughter and yourself...loving each other...and being strong and being a good little family.

I watched movie "Lilo and Stitch" with my son. I actually teared up at one point. Point where stitch hands lilo a photo of her family (parents died in car wreck and it's just she and her older sister...like a single mom)..He says "ohana" and then they say that I have a family...broken...but still good.

That's how I felt...my family was broken indeed..but very much still good.

It will be ok. Your ww is needing this to happen. this could be her only hope for healing ever. You cannot deny her this if you truly love her.

read prodigal son. over and over.

when I gave up on my xh even after the divorce was final a few days in january of 04, I remember a quiet voice in my heart...know it was from my creator. When I filed for D, I said that I gave up on my xh but that God, you'd never give up on him...and that moment, I gave my wh over to God. I remember hearing in my heart that "I am not done working with him yet." I heard same voice a few months ago when former other woman, now wife of my xh, called me to say that "I found your gold wedding band. would you like it? It was in a plastic baggie along with a letter." I told her it was nothing for her to see...that she was one of the reasons he had my gold band...and that letter was for my then H and not for her eyes. She said she had found it when snooping for "adultery stuff" on my xh. She said my xh had hidden it away...and obviously did NOT want her to see or find it. I said that "well good. I am glad darth does feel some conviction." She got nervous. She said that she also had found my gorgeous wedding portrait. I again said I gave it to darth and not to her. I am fearing what my family and friends...and even darth said...will come true. That he will divorce her, that will be his crash, finally the truth about his behaviors of last five years will come to complete light, and he will try to find me. But I don't think I can ever return to him ever. But even if I stay away for good, I know that God is NOT done with him yet and maybe just maybe he will find his creator and find the real love he should have been seeking all along.

Just do what is needed for your family to be good today. And be wise. Make wise decisions. And pray. Let God show your WW her ways and how she can return. My xh never really hit bottom...and this is why what has happened in my life and in his life has happened. You can have a different history if you do all you can do to NOT enable a ws.

Dazed,

I have never posted to you before but I have been keeping up with your sitch.

I feel so bad for you and I understand the pain you feel.

After reading Peachy's last post to you I just had to comment.

I believe Peachy is right and you have to be careful for you and DD. Please follow up with a lawyer and get your ducks in a row.

Your WW needs to crash justlike my WH needs to crash. IMHO I would follow the advice you have been given and go to planb.

It will save your love and give you some peace. I will not deny that at times you will hear and see things that will upset you but all in all its a good place to be...

Peachy knows of what she speaks. Take heed and do what you have to .... Be safe and keep DD safe...

I am praying for you and your family....

Take Care,

Hurting

Dazed,
How are you doing.... I know it's tough... hang in there... don't do anything that goes against what YOUR heart tells you to do.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There is only one truth.... not matter what you WS does... DO NOT REACT.... think.... but DO NOT REACT...

ALL WSs act this way... she's no different.... she's not the exception..... she is the NORM.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And I defer to HARLEY'S advice....not mine.... not clouded buy MY pain...... finish your Plan "A" you've come this far.... are you OK? Are you strong enough to finish?

If she leaves;.... she leaves......but even of you feel like packing her bags and throwing her out... it doesn't seem like a very kind thing to do.... WWJD??

No matter what your WS is doing to you , you shouldn't make her control you.... make you do something against WHO YOU ARE.....

I look at it this way.... if you do throw her out.. then she has an excuse that she could sell to EVERYONE.... even your DD..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

She could say she would have NEVER left... and she WAS trying to work on her marriage...and you threw her out.....so then her "friend" ( her OM) was kind enough to RESCUE her and give her a place to live.,..


Hey.... what else could she do?????? EVEN after all the pain you caused her for so many years.... YOU threw HER out... she didn't leave.... YOU THREW her out....

Doesn't sound like someone that loves her to me..... Throw her out into the arms of her OM??? Let HIM be a hero to WS AND everyone else... (including the D court (if it gets that far??) and your DD? Who would be the victim THEN???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think even HARLEY speaks against throwing the spouse out... it's NOT PART OF PLAN "B" that's all I know.

IF SHE LEAVES.....AND YOU FIND YOUR LOVE FOR HER IN JEOPARDY .....THEN PLAN "B"...... That's HARLEY.... not me....


Now.... if YOU THINK what others say may be possible... only YOU really know your W (not to be confused with your WS) If you think she is CAPABLE of PHYSICALLY hurting you... (I mean you are the MAN 'is she stronger than you or does she have a gun??) and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't do any harm to your DD PHYSICALLY.

What's the worst case then.... she leaves... that's what we think will probably happen....

You're prepared for her to leave.... now... what do YOU want her to remember? That you loved her IN SPITE of what she did.....and maybe it is possibile to work things out with you because she remembers that you ....

NEVER......GAVE......UP........ON......HER.......OR.....YOUR........MARRIAGE............


Or... YOU PACK HER CLOTHES AND PUT THEM ON THE PORCH.... (Hopefully in the rain to add to the drama... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) call the police.... alert neighbors and slander her (and embarrass your self and DD in the process) call the National Guard and have them deploy a DS protection unit to your house to protect you from air attack...and out and out treat her like a criminal....?????


NOW.....DOES........THIS.........SOUND........LIKE........ A.........THING.......... YOU............WOULD...........EVER EVER EVER ......SEE............AS.........A.......LOVING........ACT........AND..........THE ........ACTIONS........OF........SOMEONE........THAT........YOU........WOULD........FEEL.......GRATEFUL TO.........AND...........SAFE............WITH............WHEN....... THE ........AFFAIR.....ENDS???? And you KNOW it will end.,.....it WILL end.....


Dazed......what if she ISN'T planning on leaving...?????? THAT IS POSSIBILE RIGHT?????.....I MEAN NONE OF US IS GOD....WE DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD......HAS PLANNED.....HE MAY CHANGE HER HEART........BEFORE........SHE LEAVES.....



Peach... come on... " Think of her as a crazed crack addict who is now making your home unsafe " <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />She's just a WS.... they are ALL unstable.....but more dangerous to themselves.......

I'm trying to play nice with you... but.. really.....isn't that a little over the edge....this guy is confused......can you please stick to Marriage Buliders.... principals......I doubt HARLEY would advise he treat ANYONE that way... let alone someone he's supposed to love.......
"Time for hardball...tough but loving hardball"
I really can't find any of your advice in HARLEY's PLAN "A" or PLAN "B" and find it hard to find ANYTHING WHATSOEVER loving in your plan....... I refer to my "STOVE" reference before.... if she wants to put her hand on the stove and get burned..... try and stop her.... if she does....she made the mistake and you can help her heal........but DO NOT SHOVE HER HAND INTO THE FIRE AS A WAY TO SHOW LOVE?????? IN LEARNING MISTAKES..... that......is abuse.....


Dazed......what if she ISN'T planning on leaving...??????


DO NOT REACT..... STAY CALM AND STRONG AND CONSISTANT.......TEACH YOUR DD LOVE NOT HATE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and ANGER <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and....REVENGE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />..........even if your WS shoots you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (LOL!!) Your DD will remember you always acted with LOVE , KINDNESS and FORGIVENESS...........even when her Mother was unloveable....even when she made mistakes.......And I believe nt matter. WHAT happens.... you will feel better about yourself too......WWJD??

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS.... FRANK

We're still praying for you.....

frank..I don't play and I could care less if you "play nice with me" or not. I am hoping this guy can get his ww to stop doing what she is doing...which is horrible emotional abuse. It is "over the edge" to think this family is NOT suffering horrible emotional abuse at the hand of his ww. His dd is in serious need of counseling right now as the abuse from the ww continues. Don't post things to me like "I am playing nice with you" or "over the edge"...what is over the edge is a crazed om doing drive by's in front of dazed's family home. That is just outta control.

I am posting to dazed...he will decide what he wants to do. Again, what he is doing now is NOT working...he can change or he can accept more of the same.

I do not and will not condone anybody leaving their marriage without giving it 100 percent...but I am also against families being abused by a ws.

Keep ME out of this...this is about dazed. You have your ideas...and I have mine. I didn't say that I think your ideas are let's say...hmmm....door-mat-ish? I did not expand on why I don't think YOUR ideas will work...why? Because this is not about any of us except for helping this guy and his family. enablement of a very abusive ws is not the way to go. only reinforces further bad behavior from them.

Let's keep the focus on dazed...not on ourselves ok?

Nobody wants hate anger or revenge...what is needed is a safe and loving home environment.

I am 100 percent MB.

I also love the work of James Dobson and his Love Must Be Tough approach which is 100 percent faith based and based also on psych, experience with affairs, and behavioral based. He is very much in line with MB...but there does come a time when you need to defer to the pro's.

I say call the Harleys now! do not wait. And do NOT hold back...let them know everything! See if you do need to change your approach or not. My problem I see here is she is still doing more...and I am worried that tomorrow the om will enable her further by giving her $$$ to start the divorce...and that she's gonna leave anyway.

Other main problem is the emotional abuse...which is something so bad...it is almost worse than infidelity imho..because it takes so much time to rebuild that which was taken away, chipped at little by little over time.

Just be smart, stay safe, GET HELP ASAP FROM HARLEYS!!!!CALL THE PHONE NUMBER AND GET EMERGENCY APPOINTMENT TOMORROW!!!

Also alert neighbors, call police so they can too do drive by's, and call dd's school to make them aware of the sitch...in case ww becomes more unstable.

Most people do not believe they can get this way...and they can in a moment's notice. Never close a door to a ws...but let them know that they have to agree to MB principles of NC and restoration of marriage...before letting them back in door. If somebody knows that you love them but do not love their actions, and the simple way to return is to change their actions...then what is bad about that? Nothing!

Sometimes it takes letting somebody go...
again, reread prodigal son. Father loved his son soooo much...son left, took all his inheritance, and lived it up...while gone, the Father prayed for his return, that son remained safe..and God did the rest. He allowed the son to hit rock bottom...and the Father welcomed his repentant son back with open arms...

Your WW knows you would welcome her back with open arms...if she CHANGED COURSE NOW...Give her the direction...the letter can be her light back home! It can show exactly the path she must take. It can be written quite lovingly...very lovingly. And with strong faith and assurance to her should she forego this immoral lifestyle, choose to show love to her family members, that you would be MORE than willing to have her home. That you pray for her safety and a quick return. That's what the prodigal's father did.

There is a time for plan A...and for Plan B. I say defer to the Harley's right now. But tell them all of what you've posted here...read your posts to them.

In the end, I am saying that you should be wise and get advice from the best. But I do know how WS think...I do...and I know what has worked..and what has not..with family and friends and in my own life. I also know that had my xh not married ow, he would probably have already been back now. But sin begats sin...and now it is what it is. Please just do all you can to save your family...in the end, you can only control yourself and YOUR actions and dd...and keep your home loving and safe. You cannot control a spouse.

OK Peachy,
Like I said we're on the same team with the same goals...

[color:"red"] "I didn't say that I think your ideas are let's say...hmmm....door-mat-ish?" [/color]

Believe me I would think the same IF... HE HAD BEEN A PLAN "A" FOR MORE THAN 45 DAYS..he hasn't even come close to finishing... I HOPE and PRAY she stays long enough for him to because... as we both know as well as tooooo MANY here know... once they move it's MUCH harder....



[color:"red"]"I am hoping this guy can get his ww to stop doing what she is doing"

"in the end, you can only control yourself and YOUR actions and dd...and keep your home loving and safe. You cannot control a spouse."

[/color] Wouldn't you be confused here??

and.... [color:"blue"] Sometimes it takes letting somebody go...
again, [/color]

Right.... letting go... is letting someone GO... not packing their bags and leaving them on a porch with a letter....cold..

[color:"red"] reread prodigal son. Father loved his son soooo much...son left, took all his inheritance, and lived it up...while gone, the Father prayed for his return, that son remained safe..and God did the rest. He allowed the son to hit rock bottom...and the Father welcomed his repentant son back with open arms... [/color]

Right.... the son LEFT... his Father didn't KICK HIM TO THE CURB.... maybe the story would have had a different ending if the Father HAD packed his bags etc...

[color:"red"] GET HELP ASAP FROM HARLEYS!!!!CALL THE PHONE NUMBER AND GET EMERGENCY APPOINTMENT TOMORROW!!!
[/color]

YES YES YES I!! DO THAT DAZED....THEY ARE THE EXPERTS....

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS... FRANK

Dazed...

I really think you should call the Harleys!

It is sad what is happening to you and your family but after all I have read there is one thing that strikes me as interesting.....your WW is asking YOU to let her go...she is not leaving on her own...this IMHO is a good sign....it would be interesting to see what the Harleys think of this....It seems to me that she wants you to eliviate her guilt...

It really appears as if she feels bad about what she did, does not believe you can ever forgive her...this is understandable because most of us before an A occurs say 'I would be out of there, I could never forgive', but the reality is that YOU can forgive her and you want to.....however, since the mentality before an A is, no I cannot imagine living with a person that would do that, your WW is thinking along those lines, she cannot understand that you are capable of forgiveness and that she can be forgiven....

This is why I think she wants you to kick her out, do her the favor...she does not want you to show her love....then when you don't kick her out and you show her you care...she goes after you, "how could you do this etc, why could you not care like this before"...she is frastrated...yes she wishes you had shown this care before then she would not have had the A...she is confused and I personally think she hates what she has done but does not know how to get out of it....I really see her actions as a sign of total confusion and I think it would be a good time to continue to PLan A WITH the Harleys say so.....

Have you thought of talking to them?

My position is, don't kick her out, but that is me....I know she is hurting your DD....so you need to weigh that...but if you can Plan A for just a little more, then when you Plan B your WW will remember...you really want a solid good plan A before going to plan B....

So, again, why not talk to the Harleys?????

Take care of yourself and your DD... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

Daisy,

[color:"red"] It really appears as if she feels bad about what she did, does not believe you can ever forgive her...this is understandable because most of us before an A occurs say 'I would be out of there, I could never forgive', but the reality is that YOU can forgive her and you want t! o.....however, since the mentality before an A is, no I cannot imagine living with a person that would do that, your WW is thinking along those lines, she cannot understand that you are capable of forgiveness and that she can be forgiven....
[/color]


RIGHT!! THAT'S WHY IT TAKES A LOOOONNNGGGG PLAN "A" because they (nor would we) DON'T "TRUST" THAT IT'S REAL POSSIBLE..... THAT IT'S NOT A TRICK....

VERY WELL SAID!! BRILLIANT!!

I agree with your ENITRE POST.,... BRILLIANT...

there is HUUUUUGE DIFFERENCE between kicking one's spouse to the curb a la waywards do...and when a bs does it to save their marriage using plan B or love must be tough principles...

There is something horrible about having a WS who is committing on a daily basis horrible emotional abuse to a child...adults don't need it...but a child really doesn't!

It is getting really sad here...

I do not condone any WS in a home where there is severe emotional or physical abuse.

Your approach so far is not working..she is doing same thing over and over...nothing has changed. Consult Harleys...tell them of what she's also doing to daughter. ask the pro's...but be wise and think of your dd now! She truly needs your love and protection.

BTW...thereis NOTHING wrong about plan B and asking a WS who is completely unrepentant and abusive to leave.

A plan B letter worded lovingly...would easily TELL A WS THAT YOU LOVE THEM...YOU WANT THEM BACK...AND THAT IF THEY COMPLY with NC and choose path of love that they'd come back and be able to with the door wide open and arms outstretched.

Dazed....
Here is what you wrote in your very first post:

Your D-day was very recent and frankly without the A blinding your WW, she still would very seriously doubt that you have changed. I am not saying it to be harsh, but to be realistic....now together with the A, your WW does not believe that those changes are permanent, that your M stands a chance....the WS never do (or the spouses that just leave - like mine)....your WW needs to see the changes you make for a while to believe them to be long term and to have any hope of saving the M....that is why I really feel that you should Plan A....

I am working on myself, but 6 months later, I still do some things that I know irritate my H....I try and try but changing everything in no time is impossible...that is why she needs to see it for some time...

Honestly speaking I really don't think it is a good idea to go to Plan B in the hopes that she gets it...because she may just remember that you were not there for her that you 2 just don't work...

If you really want her out of your house because of the pain her presence causes your DD, then why not tell her you love her, you want to work on your M, you are not going to give up on her, you will continue to work on the M, you want her to end the A and come back to the M, BUT you want to protect your DD and hence arrangements must be made to get her an appartment or something like that.....I would run it by the Harleys first though...to see what they suggest, they may even have some other solutions....maybe she could go live with a family member etc......I am not for just telling her to leave...you don't want her to go to the OM and somehow justify to herself that YOU drove her to HIM! If she wanted to live with him, she could have done so already! As you know there are many BS here whose WS are living with the OP...they can do that....so since she has not done it..why force her hand???

I seriously don't see why you cannot try some other arrangemnts first, before Plan B....I see Plan B as the last resort!



PH,
Thanks...I am not fishing for compliments here, but I have been really really down today......I hope my 2 cents here help someone.....


Daisy

I admit, I am not very conversant on all this Plan A and B stuff. But after reading the ongoing storyline of this situation, I have to ask, when is enough, enough? How much mental and emotional abuse can one human take before they finally see though this "fog" and realize maybe its just not worth saving?

Daisy,

I think you're advice is great... you have obviously read what Plan "B" is meant to do... as you said... NOT a wake-up call....THE SECOND TO LAST RESORT....the last being divorce.......when you NEVER EVER want your spouse in your life again...EVER... thanks you are helping for sure....

Another thing I just don't get... WHERE IS THE SEVERE EMOTIONAL ABUSE??? A WS telling the BS that she wants out of the marriage??? That she wants a life with OM??
This is severe MENTAL ABUSE???? This is something to tell the neighbors?? Jeez.... how will DD or BS ever be able to walk down the street.. again???

THIS......IS.......WHAT......THEY (WSs)........SAY........

WE.......ARE.......TRAINED.....BY......HARLEY......TO...
EXPECT......THIS........IT'S........NORMAL.....FOG....AND.....ISN'T....REAL........

Does it hurt? LIKE H**LL......But.....should a BS take it to heart really....NO.....So if THEY ALL SAY IT... HOW CAN IT BE REAL????

I remember when my W told me "she loved me but wasn't IN LOVE with me...." I FLIPPED!! Then I came here and thank GOD there was a thread about what the WS says... and almost EVERYONE (BSs) said they had heard it too!! I thought I was the only one here that heard it and I had a SPECIAL case....a HOPELESS case..... but I realized HOW COULD THAT BE?? If they ALL SAY IT...


This isn't fun but this isn't SEVERE ABUSE WHEN YOU EXPECT IT.... and in DAZED case... I don't remember him EVER saying that his WS was AT ALL verbally abusive to their DD... sure... sometimes she hears them fight and the terrible things her mother says to her father... THAT ISN'T GOOD...BUT.... WHAT CHILD DOESN'T HEAR THIS ONCE IN A WHILE.

Should EVERYONE that fights in front of a child be PACKED AND SHIPPED..????

I think it would be SEVERE MENTAL ABUSE to see MY MOTHER'S CLOTHES AND PERSONAL BELONGINGS PUT IN TRASH BAGS ON THE PORCH WHILE MY FATHER KICKED HER OUT OF OUR HOME....NOW THAT'S ABUSE... IT'S CRUEL AND HEARTLESS....

AND TWO WRONGS WILL NEVER EVER MAKE A RIGHT.....

Nothings changing....??? How do WE KNOW.... what his WS is thinking????

PLAN "A" works SLOWLY........ I see her cracking......she's mad.....that's good.... they are back in conflict......that's good..... she's confused.... that's good..... IF IT WASN'T WORKING SHE WOULD BE VERY QUIET AND MAKE NO WAVES SO SHE COULD ESCAPE WITHOUT CONFLICT......

Will OM pull back.... YES..... will she WAFFLE BACK AND FORTH.... OH YEAH.....SURE WILL.... THAT...... IS..... WHAT.... THEY......DO.....

DAZED IS STRONG..... HIS LOVE for his W is SAFE (at the moment) I really think his Plan "A" is chipping away little by little... so as long as DAZED is still able... he should continue his Plan "A"........

And as for "Love must be Tough" mixed with a little Plan "B" and add a dash of DR. PHIL and SHAKE IT 180 TIMES..... that's silly....... like going on FOUR DIETS AT THE SAME TIME.... PICK ONE AND STICK WITH IT... THEN..... IF IT'S (for sure) NOT WORKING AFTER REALLY FOLLOWING IT TO THE TEE..... THEN CHANGE....

HARLEY SAYS A 6 MONTH PLAN "A"..... THAT.....IS......THE ......DIET..........6 MONTHS........(if you can without losing all your love for the WS) but as far as I understand.... you can continue a PLAN "A" as long as you want..... BUT AT LEAST 6 MONTHS....that's what I read....


DAZED.... WHERE ARE YOU????? Are you reading all this...???? Are you OK???

About as cruel and heartless as knowing my mother is willingly sleeping and shacking up with OM?

[quote
About as cruel and heartless as knowing my mother is willingly sleeping and shacking up with OM? [/quote]

She shouldn't be told this.... IF she finds out... then DAZED will have to explain.... and comfort her.... but I still think THROWING MY MOTHER OUT IN THE STREET.... would NEVER be acceptable to me... SHE'S MY MOTHER!!!!! I'm SURE I would find a way to EXPECT my FATHER.... would be more forgiving of her MISTAKES..... and wonder what I COULD DO to get TOSSED......
Love is KIND....Love never ANGERS... etc....

Peachy-My heart goes out to you for all your help and the pain that you have experienced in your life. YOU are a true survior! I want you to know that I truely think about everything you tell me.
I agree that OM is starting to unravel. I think he is manipulating my WW. Yes, I agree she is playing both sides as well. The thing is I know this woman. We have spent half our life together. He only thinks he knows her by her actions over the past several months.
Do I think he will harm me? He is a chicken _hit. He will never face to face confront me. I think he may crack and loose it when WW leaves him. He is really really pushing on WW.
FRANK & Daisy
Yes, I do agree with you on finishing Plan A. I know Peachy, there is a limit and i need to know when to say when. This is hard and full of pain. I can take it. I'm not on the rev limiter yet. I will do a better job of protecting my daughter and us working as a team. I will get her into IC ASAP.

WW confessed yesterday that OM is really pushing her to divorce me. Just as I thought.

Yesterday update-
I got up early and stared in on cleaning up the house. Badly needed I might add. Took down all the Holloween decorations and what not. Made beds, laundry, cleaned out the entry way, carpets, pretty much everything. While at it I cleaned out the entry way bench. In side the drawer I found the ring box to the aniversary band that I gave WW in April. I through it on a pile of items for the trash. I also took down a display of boyds bears that was in the entry. These were all items I gave the WW as gifts over the last several years. Anniversary, birthday, christmas. Little things that said together for ever, true love, best friends, family, you get the pic. WW came out of the bath room and seen I had all that stuff boxed. She stood for a minute and started to cry. She slowly walked towards the bath room and seen the ring box. She picked it up and held it. Opened it up and played with it for a few minutes. Looked at me and said I guess you probably feel better about taking that stuff down huh. I said no, I don't but it all doesn't matter now. You don't value all this stuff so why should I keep it on display. Remember these presents I gave you? Look at this one. I shown her the two bears dressed in wedding cloths kissing. I gave you this when we renewed our vows for our tenth anniversary, and this one, together forever. I gave you that last year on our anniversary. What about the ring box in your hand. Do you even know what came in it? Probably not, because you did not care then. It was an anniversary band that I gave you in April to show how much I love you. She ran upstairs cring. I let her go. She came down and followed me around for a while as I vacummed the floor. After a few minutes she ran back upstairs and I found her setting on the floor cring. I let her go.
A short time later she was in the bath room cleaning herself up. She looked at me very sad and full of pain. I went to her gave her a hug. Told her she looked like she could use this. After another bit of time she was in the bath room doing her hair. She says, you would never trust me again would you? You look through my car, my purse, you are always wondering where I'm going. You have followed me.
I said, yes WW I have just now done those things. That much is true. I said, trust in you I always had and want to give you now. I'm not a game player or someone that feels good about worring and being suspecious. I hate that. If you were open and honest with me and just took a step to help me trust you I would be happy with that. Earn your trust back is what I would like. She says what about you. How do I trust you. You have never had to earn my trust in you before. I said, I would earn it back like wise. I would be 100% open and show you all of my life to prove you can trust me. 10 minutes go by.
I said: I want to tell you something and to please just listen. I said, WW if you want to come home. All of you, body and mind. It's easy. Just come to me and say, BS I want to try to fix things with us. If you really really want to try 100%, I will not punish you, make selfish demands, pass judgement and make you feel bad. We will set down hand in hand and together jointly agree how we are going to do it with complete honesty. Yes, I know all the basic concepts, and I will suggest those when she lets me.
She gave me a look of understanding and held my hand for a second.

WW was out for a couple hours yesterday. When she returned she was all screwed up again. Obviously from OM. She asked we could set and talk. She was a mess again. As she held on to me she said, it feels so natural to touch you. The way we fit feels right. You are so familiar to me. It feels so wrong deep inside to think about being with anyone else. Maybe that is god telling me what to do like you said. I never ever in a million years wanted anyone else. Even at the worst of times I did and still think I'm suppose to be with you. I only wanted your attention BS. I still love you, but look at the mess I have got myself into. I did it all on my own. I never learn do I. How did I let it get this far. He was never suppose to be nothing more than a friend at work. Just like you said, I'm stupid and don't realize when boys want more than friendship. I really believe he was going to leave his wife, but I should have seen this. Now there is no way out with out hurting someone. I said, I wish I could just set you in my lap, hold you and tell you it's all going to be okay. You have to want me to do this with you. Me and you together the way we started out. The way will should have been. She says, god your so perfect now. You are the dad to DD that I always wanted. You are trying so hard now it makes me so sad. I should have found a way to talk to you before all this. Maybe I could have told me sister to tell you about anothe guy chasing me so you would have woke up sooner. Maybe I should have just told you so you would have woke up. This is so hard BS. He told me to not go back home and just stay with him now. He told her that if you go home he will just break you down and twist up your head. I asked do you think I do that. She says no I just feel guilty when I'm with you. I'm not controling you or making you do anything. I'm only loving you and showing you there is a way back home.
He is really pushing you huh. She said yes. I said does that feel good. "NO" Do you think that if you let him push you around now that it will get better later? "NO". She put her head down in my lap and cried.
I said, I knew he was pushing you. What would he do if you told him your not sure and want to wait a couple more weeks or want out, what would he do. Do you think it is fair that he with nothing to loose is forcing you to pick now? You, we have everything to loose don't we. She said your right. I had to break to go get D12 from her friends. We did not not talk about this stuff again until D12 was a sleep. Talking was a bit awkward because she was quite and I did not want to lead into conversation. I wanted follow her lead but she was not talking. So, I rubbed her head and tried small talk. She still would not say much. I did asked if she wanted a guy that told her what to do. She shook her head no. In my entire life she has always resented direction and force. Runs from pressure big time. So I tried to avoid telling her anything. Just some talk with questions to try to get her to open up. I asked if he scared her. "NO" Is he telling you what to do and giving you rules? No answer with her is yes. No answer. Is he instructing you to not talk to me, no answer, is her hurting you, "NO", Is he telling you to file on me, no answer. Is he telling you to sleep on the couch and not in a bed upstairs, no answer. Does he expect you to do everything he says, no answer. Do you like his attempt to control you and manage you like this, NO. I'm I making you uncomfortable, NO. I'm going to stop talking now because this is really awkward for me and you are not carring the conversation so I will just listen to you now. Nothing. I rubbed her hair for awhile, asked her to come up stairs. I went and got her PJ's and set them down with her and went to sleep.
Woke her up this morning by rubbing her hair. She says you are so nice to me, you shouldn't be. I said, I want to be.
I went by the store bought her a pop and a snack, gave them to her and told her she can call me if she needs to talk. Try and have a good day. bye.
Guess what...I get two blocks from my house there is basturd OM going the other way. I spotted him early enough to show him he is No.1 as i went by. He was pointed towards the court house to go finish sshiting on his wife and collect his lotto check. Probably hoped to catch WW on her way to work all at the same time. I went another block and stopped to see if WW would go on to work. She did. Don't think she saw me. I was a bit worried that he might stop her and pull something.
I'm debating on calling her today and offering to be there or give remind her to not let him push her.
However, I think that makes me look like the pusher. So I'm standing down, hoping that he will continue to unravel and help her see that the light. I know patients, and planning.
Thank all of you for praying for me and my family. I said a prayer for all of you last night too.
I know it not over and there is much strength needed.
I wish I could speak with each one of my friends on here. Peachy- Your a great woman and your helping me even if you think I'm doing the wrong thing. Believe me your helping me.
FRANK- Thank you for helping me calm down and find patients. Your comment about it took years of hurt for her to let her guard down to another, and it took the OM time to become her friend and make her fall for him. I wish it was all over now. WW is also becoming very tired. You know, I'm weary and at times out of gas. WW has been living this lie and stress for seven months. I feel she wants it all to end soon too. I think She is ready to find a direction to move in.
I hope that she see's OM's control tact as a big LB. I think she has argued with him about this. Because when I talked to her about this a few days ago when she first told me that crap that he can't see her until she files. I said do you really think that is not telling you what to do? I never in a million years controlled you like that. I gave you nothing but freedom. She says, he says if you had cared about me you whould have been more around to see what I was doing. I will not follow that up. Just wanted to give that as support to his control measures and he is even justifying them to her. Wow..
The last boyfriend my wife had was a control freak. He even tried to run over her with his car when they broke up. He reminds me a lot of OM. She used to tell me how greatful she was that i trusted her and let her live. I reminded her of that statement last night too.
Got go .. I'm sure that OM is now a free turd with out a wife he will step up his pressure 10 fold.
I think I just need to make me look safe and un-pressuring right now. Attractive to her so when OM pushes she has me to run to. What do you all think besides, Plan B go dark stuff.
dazed

Dazed....hope you are doing ok

I can only imagine how difficult this situation is to you....at the end you will do what is best for you and your DD. I understand what your DD is going through...I don't know how much she knows about the A or not...you want to shelter her from it all, it is understandable...yet I am sure as she hears you arguing she learns what is going on and it is hurting her...your reaction might be to protect her and get her out of that envirement by going to Plan B....that will probably be hard on her as well....

Perants argue, it sucks for the kids, but it happens....it is the way that you deal with it that will matter....

When I was about 12 my parents started arguing a lot...it just kept escalating over the years until when I was 15 my mother wanted to just leave my dad and us...during this time my relationship with both of them just deteriorated...I loved them, I wished they would just stop fighting all the time, I wished they would finally show some love to me...but nevertheless they continued on and on (they made us be part of their fights - asking us whose side we were on etc...really distarbing stuff)....as I said at some point my mother wanted to leave and my father did not want her to....told her to go talk to the kids...well my mother came into our room and talked to my brothers (one older, one younger) she was nice, told them she would miss them, then she came to me and told me she wished I was never born....

I tell you that was a blow...I was only 15..I loved her....how could she hurt me like that.....BUT I still did not want her to leave me....as much as she hurt me then, I was happy she stayed and did not leave us that night....

I have forgiven her....and my parents went on to have a better marriage (not right away...but some time later)....and I and my mother have a nice relationship now...we love each other and I know that those words were just some BS she said in frastration....

The one thing I really wish for more then anything is that they talked to me...asked me how I felt...this is what you can do....be there for your DD...ask her how she is doing...what she wants...what does she think is going on ....what does she know is going on...what does she hope and wish for...would she prefer not to live with her mother for a while.....I know you don't want to scare her, you want to protect her...but IF the situation is dire...and she has to deal with all the crup...she is old enough to be takled to......I really wish my parents at least once came and spoke to me and asked me how I felt....

Best to you...
Daisy