To Dazed,

This is my first day on this site. I've been reading bits and pieces of your story and am blown away both by its intensity and the advice given you.

I have no advice, but I wanted to encourage you with this: I was a woman who had emotionally left her marriage and returned - well, am still returning - but for the most part I'm here. I had set a date to file. I didn't have the encumberances your wife seems to have. But, I'm back even though I could point to many reasons why my husband had "lost" my love. JustPeachy's description of the spouse standing there - strong and resolute - while the lost spouse looks into the bottom of a canyon really spoke to me because that is exactly what my husband did. And when my fog cleared just enough, I was able to see HIM as the person of safety and love to go to. Over time - it became apparent that his love for me was real.

Hang in there.

MAzingrace

This morning she came into the bed room and woke me up.
She set on the floor with her back against the wall beside the bed.
She asked how I could do this to her. Take her kid from her. How could I say she is an unfit mother. I let her go on for a bit. When she stopped I said I never said you were an unfit mother. I told her I love you. The lawyers are fighting about this. Yours wants you to stick it to me, and mine like wise.. I don't even want a divorce much less hurt you. She set and cried with her head down. Again went to the same story of I did everything for 12 years for her, while you did your own life. I never held you back. You lived with no rules or time limits. I was never important to you. No I want to something for me and you still have to rule over me making me. Why is it always about you and getting what you want.
I told her that is not it at all. You filed for a divorce, when I had the chance to do it, I did not. I did nothing to hurt you because I still love you. As a father it is my duty to protect our daughter. She says why do you think I could not do that. I did it for years while you did not. I said it is not about you and your love for her or skills as a mother. It's her feelings and values of you and me that I'm protecting. I know you would never try to hurt anyone, okay. I do...
I stopped talking and so did she. She went into daughters room and curled up on the floor and went to sleep with a blanket covering all of her. She slept there for at least two hours. I took this time to shower, straighten up the house a bit, run down town to her favorite cafe and bought lunch to go. Went by the flower shop and picked a dozen roses. I set the flowers on the floor by the bath room door. The card read, WW, I love you. To me you will always be a beautiful rose.

She came down as i placed lunch on the table. She says, why do you keep doing this. Just through your money away. Roses just die like love and respect. Just by something that is needed and will last.
She see's the lunch and says you eat I don't want any. She walks off.
I remain at the table. Five minutes go by. She comes back. Says if its okay I would like to take daughter out this after noon and spend some time with her. That is if you say I can.
I said nothing.
She set down. Said, BS... Why can't you figure it out. You are too late. I took it for years and wanted you so badly but now I can't do it any more. She went over many situations from out past where I hurt her feelings, left her alone, made her fell uncomfortable. Many specific things from things like making her wait for me, me leaving the house not telling her, on and on. Stuff I'm very a shamed of and regret badly. I did not desput any of it. I told her I'm very a shamed and sad that I did those things. I did do many selfish things. I know you find it hard to believe in me because of the past, but I will not live that way any longer.

She broke down several more specific events like christman last year when I lost my temper and drove fast scaring her and how that ruined the entire day for her. She went over several more situations. Then saying if it was not for me finding a man that gives a _uck about me, you would be doing the same old thing. You selfishly living and me all alone hurting. We never did anything together. I had to stop her at that. I gave her a list of things we did lovingly together. That stopped her. I said, yes i did hurt you and I know what happened. We did not live life together side by side. That is the root cause of all other hurtfull things we did. You forgave me for so many things. Coming home late, losing my temper and yelling, That is why I believe in forgiveness and redemption.
WW says, You make my head crazy. I care about you and wish I did not. It makes me so sad to know your home all alone sad waiting for me. You did that to me for years and you did not care. I set in a chair waiting and waiting. Watching a crapy tv show just to go to sleep and where were you. Your life was more important and you did not care. Why do I.. I can't stop caring, its what I do. I care about everything. If you fed, if you have socks to wear, if your glasses are broke, if daughter has underwear, if the house is clean everything... I think good. Now he gets to worry about all the stuff I did and do it all alone. Then I think why do I care. I shouldn't. I can't stop.
She said, I think your just jelous of a guy that really loves me and you just dont want me to be happy or have anything.
I said, WW you filed for a divorce I agreed to give it to you. I asked if your rental was furnished and if you needed anything. How do you know I don't really love you?
What does he do that shows you he loves you more than I do?
She says, that is not your business. I said, okay. What has he down to prove his love for you. She said, that does not matter.
What your doing is just an act. It's not you. I said, no its not. I know I blew it. I know. I realized what I did wrong, and that what i kept searching for in my life was here all along. YOU...FAMILY... Living life together. That is how I see it people have things in common is by sharing life and all the things that come with it. We had a great love. We were connected. Many people have reconnectd lost loves by starting over. I know your not ready and may never be. All I can say is I'm here now.
She says, I'm just suppose to say okay... I can't. I can't forget the past. I think about it. I just get mad about how you made me wait and wait for you.

The things you are doing are wonderful and look so good. I know its not you. Your just pretending.
Barely holding back the tears, I told her. I love you and you think its an act, thank you... thank you... I got up and left the room.
As I set on the couch a few minutes later WW comes in and sad stop tring to make me feel bad. I said nothing.

WW and daughter are now out playing at the mall together.

I just don't know what to think. I understand why she thinks I'm a fraud. Just like the walk off wife story. She is protecting herself from me now by not wanting to believe in me. I did do many many selfish things to her. That I know. I did many loving things as well, but to quote her, "I'm a grudge carring _itch that don't forget anything." She is so write about not forgetting. She is a person that can remember every hurtful event over the past twenty years. WOW
She see's my attempt to obtain primary custody as a slap in her face. Punishment as she put it. So, she thinks this is the old me coming back to hurt her and be angry. Tell tell you the truth, I do kinda think it is punishment. Yes, I do know primary custody is protection first. I do not think wife in her right mind would hurt daughter. However, she is under another mans control. A man with no character or morals. That is why I do not want daughter with WW in that situation. I guess the other part is punishment for her cheating and not wanting to try it with me. Is that wrong of me to feel that way.
I have denied that with WW but, that is the way she is taking it.
I told her that I do want her in daughters life and be a mother to her. Just not ready to let her live 50/50 with you and people I don't know and trust. Just like if we were to take her to a day care provider and never meet them. I know your a terrific mother and love her more than anything. It the people your around I dont trust with her.
Her feelings are so fragile right now. She can not be exposed to significant others yet.

HI Dazed,

You are a very strong man.... we're proud of you.... there are people ALL OVER THE WORLD praying for you and your W... (you just got a Candle from IRAQ!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> )

Ecerything was good except for the talk about OM.. don't do it to yourself...

I still think she is really cracking.... think about it....
If you KNEW that you would right... would you sell it as hard as she is selling it? WHO is she REALLY trying to sell it to? HERSELF!!


SHE IS JUST SCARED THAT THIS IS AN ACT OR A TRAP.... SHE EVEN SAID SO....

So what will she do? Try and get you mad and make you "Drive really fast" so she can say "See.... you'll never change.."

So stay strong... keep on doing what you're doing....

You didn't waste money on the roses BELIEVE ME!!
She loved them.... (take care to see what she does with them she probably won't throw them away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's what Plan "A" does.... it chips away little by little....
Like a drop of water on a rock... little by little....

Can you see the results.... NOT WITH THE NAKED EYE... but... little by little the rock breaks down...

I don't know if your reading this but I'll keep posting... GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

P.S. The offer to talk on the phone still stands.. Here's my email.... qualitycanvas@hotmail.com

Frank-
I did not get angry today at all. I really never raised my voice. I had to keep saying silently to myself over and over while she was bashing me. "NO ANGER, DO NOT YELL" over and over.
I don't think I could have done it any other way. She starts talking about OM it so hard to not touch that one.
This time I did not say anything about him. I questioned his love for her. YES. Actually I said, "So he can say I love you and means something, but when I say it, it does not carry the same". This is when she said I was a fraud.

She knows it's OM that I don't want daughter around. The RO against him really pissed her off. That tells me she had full intent on presenting him to daughter or having him in the house with her.

Dazed,

You are getting great advice...but I wanted to get you to back away from all of this and kinda look at it from the outside.

Before I do, I want you to know that my wife said many of the things yours is now. When I got custody of our three kids, she just sobbed in the phone about how she had been there for them (a SAHM)...that I had all these things going on and left her alone...that she had reached the point where she couldnt care anymore...that she went out and did somethign for her...that why does it always have to be Mortarman's way...etc. So, please understand that: I UNDERSTAND!

Now that being said, let's look at what your wife is doing right now. You are getting great advice on here concerning what your wife is saying. And you should continue doing the great Plan A that you are. But let's you and I sit here for a minute and think about what it is like to be Mrs. Dazed right now and what she is going thru. Because once you know that, then you will know how she will react to your Plan A and how she will react to the OM.

Ask yourself this question: why is she continuing to talk to you? sure, the lawyer may have chastised her into staying in the house. But she could do so without having these relationship talks. So, why does she do this? Why does she keep saying the same thing over and over about 12 years of support, about you not being there, about you now trying to punish her? Well, since we are typing here...and since my wife did the same things, I am going to tell you.

Your wife is trying to convince herself of the things that she is saying. Look, there are two people in the room there. And you are saying one thing, and she is saying something entirely different. Now, do you believe any of that malarchy she is saying (sure, she can get some facts right...but her whole supposition is based on false premises).? Of course you dont. You know the truth.

Now, does she believe what you are saying? Aaahhhh...think about that one for a minute. Does she believe what you are saying about the marriage and the future? YES SHE DOES! How do I know? Listen to this:

She sees the future you offer, but does not trust it! She is caught in the past (albeit a revisionist history past). But she does see the future. That is why she is so angry...she wishes this happened before, before she had made such a horrendous mistake.

So, now we have you not believing what she is saying...and she is believing what yo uare saying. let's take this a little further.

Do you believe what you are saying? Of course. you believe in the real history of your marriage. You believe in the future of your marriage.

Does your wife believe what she is saying? This is the most important question I will ask you tonight. Does she really believe in what she is saying and doing. And the answer is...NO!

"But Mortarman, she is so adament...she sounds so sincere. She is actively trying to make it happen." I know, I know. On the surface, it looks like what she is saying is what she means. But look at it closely and you will see that first appearances are not the truth in this case.

If your wife believed in what she was saying, she wouldnt be angry. she wouldnt be trying to get you to believe in her way. She wouldnt be repeating the mantra over and over for you. In effect, she wouldnt care what you thought. Your wife does not elieve what she is saying by her own actions, as she continues to come back to you and try to get YOU to help HER believe it. She wants you to help in the divorce, thus justifying it and her actions. She wants you to help her get the judge to give her everything, thus having the court back her up in her reasoning and her actions. She wants to make sense out of nonsense.

So, we come down to the fact that both of you believe in what you are saying...and neither of you believe in what she is saying.

So, my last question to you is...why are you getting caught up in what she is saying? You both dont believe it. So, why give it the time of day? sure, you are doing well with the Plan A and you are staying on point with you repeating the truth. But then you come here and sound defeatist and are worried about what ifs. You lt her fogese begin to permeate your brain.

You need to do better at protecting yourself. You and her both know the truth. She cannot adequately refute the truth. You wont allow her to do that.

so, let her falshoods continue to sink in. she knows they arent right. The longer she has to sit in her errors...the more she will be in pain.

And pain is the great motivator for WSs to come out of the fog. So, keep up the good fight. Stay on message and continue to trust the Lord and trust what you know to be true.

She cant win a battle with the truth. Epecially as long as you make sure the truth continues to be there for you both.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN...

[color:"red"]"So, we come down to the fact that both of you believe in what you are saying...and neither of you believe in what she is saying" [/color]


BRILLIANTLY PUT!! You are great with words!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]"And pain is the great motivator for WSs to come out of the fog. So, keep up the good fight. Stay on message and continue to trust the Lord and trust what you know to be true.
" [/color]

Again... BRILLIANT!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Trust God... so many of us forget that he is working too!!

DAZED... I'm sorry... did you think I said you got mad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I didn't I'm AMAZED at your control NOT getting mad!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and am applauding you!!

YOU CAN DO THIS!! You ARE doing this..!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

do not let the fog words from ww get you down at all.

facts are beginning to dawn on her...she is realizing that the fantasy she concokted with the om are not going to be as planned...no money for new house...no full custody and cs and ss...exposure has made things rought for all to look on them with happy eyes.

It's working! she is mad because you are becoming the man of her dreams!

She's mad because she was stupid...she did very bad things...

deep down remember this one...again, a pearl from my oh so wonderful counselor I saw...

she said "remember when a person is pointing a finger at you..saying you did this or accusing you of that...remember that four fingers are pointing back at the accuser!

that is why ww is angry! it is misdirected SELF ANGER...SHE IS MAD AT HERSELF.

She helped create this mess...and now she sees that she is not right in anything.

she sees that she will lose her house, her child, her dignity, all....and that OM is just a prop...just something that appears to be the real thing...but it isn't. that's what a prop is...

My xh's ow/w is that prop too. She was a short term fling from his accounts...but she upted the ante so much that she forced herself to be a long term one in his life...and that's sad...was NOT meant to be the real thing...my xh wanted? what was it? he kept saying all along...just wait for me..I know you probably won't be single a year or two after the divorce (I am still..surprise), and I will be back. I just have to get this stuff (satan) out of my system while I am young." He kept saying this stuff to me.

Keep doing a good plan A...soon the "prop" will be no longer needed in the play of your life. He will fall away...whens he realizes he is NOT there for her good...her better or worse..he is just there to play around and have fun...it was soooo typical of the OM to not want DD around...he arranged it so dd was not there and ww went back to him. His colors are showing...and I will bet that she may not like what she wakes up with.

stay the plan a course...keep with your divorce choices (full custody, ro against OM.) and also keep to the carrot AND THE STICK part of plan A...you keep leaving out the stick...

stick: further exposure on OM...

You did great by telling WW that the whole custody and legal business is what "the lawyers do..I didn't do it" or something like that. It was great! You're learning fogese my friend! You are learning how to break thru it. If she is convinced it was not YOU..then it's good.

It is something you can continue doing..the "I wish our lawyers didn't have to do this....I wish we were NOT divorcing and did not have to deal with the sharks"...say stuff like that. Make her let her guard down. do not let ww have dd overnight though. she could be letting her around om. this is bad...especially if you're trying for full custody. this could imply that you might be aware om would be around ww and you were ok with it. trust me, the opposition (om and ws...not your wife)would stoop to nothing lower..and it could happen. I saw her modus operandii from day one...I could have told you it'd go like this a while back.

Keep doing stellar plan A...get the wittle wabbit home more using carrot techniques...and then when the lawyers get the stuff on OM and evidence from a PI...drop the stick down! Rabbit is caught in box...

hey..did anybody watch bugs bunny movies? elmer fudd would have a cardboard box rigged with a stick holding it up...stick has string tied around it...long thread of string...held by elmer...then under the box as bait he'd have this carrot...

Now let's picture somebody more well..suave than elmer holding the string which is attached to the stick. for arguement's sake, let's say we have james bond..and he's trying to catch the ws...he'd use all the spy techniques to get them, lure them to the darn box...convince the ws that they really want the carrot...then whammo! they pull the string which in turn pulls the stick out and the box falls down...meanwhile inside box, the ws is happily eating the carrot...and knows that with the bs there will be more...ws happy...bs happy...james then comes in, grabs ws into his arms, and they fly away in his carrot filled helicopeter!

So here's the deal...stick to plan A...turn into her james bond dream guy...but be as slick as james in dealing with the double stuff going on...lawyers, down low on OM...and plan a and carrot the ww to death! then carefully plan how you're gonna drop that darn stick!

it is within reach! if you use your brain...think!

Today's update.
Last night WW took daughter window shopping at the mall and do girl stuff. I hear that things went well until Daughter asked WW to go with us to the swim meet.
Actually my invite was to leave at 6PM. All three of us take the 1hr road trip to city of swim meet. There we would get a hotel. Either two bed for girls or me in another room. Then we could go to the mall there, do some shopping, see a couple tourist traps or a movie and dinner. WW turned down me and daughter. Daughter got upset when WW also turned down going early in the morning and bypassing the evening of fun. Daughter was upset. Aske WW why? The only thing WW says, is my car will not make it that far. Daughter says, we all right with dad. WW would not reply. That was the end of there girls night.

WW did finally eat the lunch I brought home for her in the evening. She was very withdrawn the rest of the evening.

This morning I woke WW when we were leaving and gave her another blanket and a kiss good bye. She shrugged it off.

While at the swim meet I tried to call WW to give her the play by play of daughter winning her first race and placing second in her second. However, no answer.

Daughter did very good today. I'm so proud of her and excited. We stopped and had a nice lunch before coming home. She was very happy and excited too. Then on the way home she said, I wish mom could have seen me. I said, don't worry honey. I took many pictures of you that we will give to momma.

When I got home WW kinda greeted me at the door. Asked, "How did she do" with a friendly tone and smile. I was surprised to see her tone with me. I was very up beat and positive boasting about how good she did and we wish you could have seen it. Winning her first race. Then a very close second doing the 200 back stroke. She did wonderful, I'm so proud of her.
I could see the pain trying to show in WW's face. My goal was not to make her cry or hurt, so I backed down and said, well I will let daughter tell you about it. They talked for a while. Daughter was tired, so WW helped her lay down on the couch making a bed for her.

I noticed WW had taken the roses that set out all night and trimmed them and aranged them in a vase. I had brought them in as uncut. She left them out all night. I figured she was just going to let them set. SURPRISING.

She was busy cleaning the house. Scrubing bath room floor, sink, shower, counters, vacumming. WW was a virtual clean freak before OM. However, she had not done any of this in months. I can not even remember. This was a surprise.

I tried to touch her and let her know I appreciated what she was doing. She was not mean or said anything bad. Just turned from my contact. Not wanting to push it. I retreated. I joined into the house cleaning effort. I jumped in on laundry. Don't even want to discuss that yet.
I picked up the bed rooms, made beds, put shoes away, you know the basics.

While making the guest room bed, WW walks in and curls up on the bed like a little girl.
I stop and set at the end of the bed. I put my hand on her shoulder, she moves a little to show me her discomfort. So I back off. We both lay across from each other for several minutes looking at each other then away. Like kids play. This remined me and I think her of old times. On Sunday's after our family day some time we would lay on the bed and reflect the day or week or week up coming. The guest bed being our old bed and bed covering really brought back that feel for me. I told WW, thank you for cleaning the house. It really means a lot to me. She said, it's what I do. As if she had never stopped during this horrible year.
She looked so nice laying there. Like the woman I used to know. I told her; shorty, you are so beautiful. I could almost see her emotions swurling. Trying to be sturn or unphased yet wanting to show me something.

Daughter and our little dog join us in the room. I get up and offer my place to daughter. Her and WW lay next to each other sharing some giggles and talk. I join in with by playing with the dog and sending her to jump on WW and daughter. We all four played around for awhile like old times. I lay across the foot of the bed and them to length ways. Daughter got up to go watch tv. I broke the ice by commenting on WW toes that the nice little Chinese ladies at the mall painted for her and daughter last night. We had a couple small laughs.
WW says, this all really sucks, yah know.
I said, yes it does all really suck.
She says, just not knowing. This rut I'm in... This limbo...It all sucks.. I'm so tired BS...
You know my lawyer lady really is a biotch. She was so mean to me about all this. I hate her.
I said, I know the that feeling. My lawyer made me feel so bad too. You know I used to want to become a lawyer until I figured out what kind of person most of them were to become sucessful. (Sorry Mr. & Mrs. W)
She said, going into that office was the worst day of my life. I got sick to my stomach. I could not stand up because I was nearly ready to pass out. I just could not stop crying. Did you see the tear drops all over the papers?
I said, you know I just want to put my arms around you and hold you until we go to sleep and when we wake its all better. I wish it was just that easy... I know its not for you.. She says, me too. But our hearts are broken..

I said, you know we can tear up these papers and....
You don't have to leave now or ever. You know that's what I want, I know I have to respect what you want.

WW says, Okay- Here are my fears BS.....
I come home. Look at this house, the street, you, daughter and I think god what are you doing? I'm so scared this is the biggest mistake of my life. Then in sixty days and we are no longer...I realize I want to come home, but my home is gone, you are gone, daughter is gone. Then what?

I see you. I think he is here now. He is what you always wanted. Stay with him. I feel bad that I'm hurting you. Then I get mad at you. I think, You made me wait. You did all that crap to me. 12 years gone.... You tell me you will never do that to me again. I want to believe in you.
But, I got a taste of life with out this....
I think run as fast as you can... Get in your car and drive 100 mph and let all of him and his bad family and our problems just fly out the window and start a new life. No more being late, no more race cars, no more fighting, no more of all that crap. Then what if I still miss you.

BS- Can you think about something and don't answer now.
Can we stop the lawyers for, say two weeks. I want to move into my girl friend "XWZ's" house with her. Daughter stay here with you and I can come see her and be with her when ever or when its okay with you. I will promise I will not take her around any one you choose.
After two weeks we decide what to do. I said, what are we to think about over this two weeks and what are the rules? She said, you think about it. We can talk later.

WW and daughter got them selves ready go to the store. I stopped them and asked to finish up the last couple pictures on the camera's me and daughter used for our week end together plus, swim meet. WW was actually accepting. I took pictures of her and daughter and with our dog. Daughter snapped one of me and I gave them the camera's to go get developed.

WW and Daughter left together to go to Wal-mart and then over to "XYZ's" to help paint. Daughter wanted to log some volenteer time for her leadership program, plus WW can visit with her girl friend.

I don't understand the request of WW. I Think it's about custody or divorce or all of it. Not sure.
To me this just sounds like another bad idea. Two weeks pretend divorced to see if she can do. That is what I get. I don't know.

HI Dazed,

I'm nore sure I understand what she suggested either...???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I THINK... she wants to move into a friends house for 2 weeks and wants you BOTH to stop D for those two weeks.??

Advise.. is that it? Also.... you never finished about the laundry >(did she have some of OMs laundry?... I've been there... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

HEY.. some REALLY GREAT STUFF here!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

YOU ARE REALLY getting good at this....stronger and stronger!!!

So..is that what you got from her 2 week thing?

FRANK

Dazed,

I know this feels really good to you...be VERY careful. I say this because my WH/now XH did something similar. The day our divorce was set for final hearing, he asked me to please not go and to dismiss the divorce. He promised no contact - all by the book. I was so moved that I did. My poor attorney was already at the court house, but did as I said and dismissed the divorce. The next day, I discovered that, several days prior, WH/now XH had purchased himself a one way ticket to go overseas to where OW lives. Notably, if my attorney had not seen ahead and told the judge we would likely file a motion to reinstate within 10 days, I would have had to spend another $750 to have my now XH reserved overseas. We reinstated the following Monday and had it heard the same day.

BE VERY CAREFUL!! Nothing is likely to happen on the divorce in the next two weeks, anyways, so putting it on hold would not make any sense...

Regards,

BB

Dazed,
To start off your story is really so inspiring. A man fighting for his love against all odds and through the roughest of oceans. I don’t know how mean you were to her previously and I don’t know how this will end but you have proved yourself to be a true hero, a model father and a good husband.

Every time you can spend some time with your WW she starts to see the light. She then goes to OM and the poison seeps in again. I don’t feel too good about these 2 weeks. To begin with SHE filed for D. She can stop it. It’s not your call to delay for 2 weeks.

At the moment she is coming to your house for “detox”. Will she do that if she has the 2 week retreat? Will OM have 2 weeks of poisoning and fog-building without your intervention?

Having said that I don’t see what options you have. Would being firm about her not staying at this place be a love-buster (I ask honestly)?

You have been getting great advice here from a lot more knowledgeable people than me. They won’t let you down and will suggest the right thing soon.

She likely wants two weeks of alone time with OM to test the relationship. See if he really can make her feel like he makes her feel for the rest of her life. She thinks two weeks without interference from you will be sufficient time for her to get off the fence and decide.

My wife debated the same issues. She was torn between stable and logical choice (me) and the "passionate" lover that "understood" her so deeply...at a level I could never comprehend. My wife begged for the opportunity to just go to OM in Atlanta for the summer. She tried to convince me and perhaps she deep down believed herself that OM was not close to perfect and that the relationship would not last (d'ah!). She just could not give it up today without "trying" it out.

It is a fantasy dream. She will just be deeper in the trap after spending 2 weeks or any time with OM.

I think her strategy is only to insure you will consent to her 2 week hiatus with OM and not use it against her in the divorce/custody battle. I think you should stick to your guns and merely tell her you can not stop her but you will not consent to her "abandoning" you and DD. The use of the term "abandonment" should be used carefully by you as if you have no idea it is a legal term. She will get the point and maybe throw another fit. Do not engage. Just appear dumbfounded that she would think you are that litigous.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- No offense on the lawyer thing. I've stated here several times...Divorce and Bankruptcy law do not attract the most empathetic and personable pratitioners. Who in their right mind would ever want to jump into the middle of these human tragedies on a daily basis? I kind of imagine the field as the Proctology of the attorney world. No offense to any Proctologist's here but I just hear they are usually [censored] (pun intended).

BTW, I pretty much run our businesses now and practice just a little. I practiced Tax Law (mostly estate planning). Though I had to clean up several messes incapable Divorce Attorney's left their clients in after the IRS came calling. Most common problems...property settlements drafted as alimony where the wife failed to report the income b/c she thought it was a property settlement. The IRS still nailed her. Another big problem is who gets the kid's exemptions. If both take it the IRS will catch on...3 years later...adding penalties and interest usually to the wife.

I agree with the postings here, Dazed.

You are doing sooooo well. Keep it up. She is on the fence but her fence is pretty rickety. She needs to know that her choices are her own and she is free to make them but the consequences are very real.

How about a counter-offer? Find out if she will spend 3mos (just a guess on a good time frame) with no contact with OM. If it is true love and "meant to be" then the time will be nothing. If this OM has any good in him as she believes (we know better), he will give it to her to do the right thing by her DD and you and the marriage. Instead of a trial seperation as she suggests, how about a trial marriage?

Feel free to blast away if you disagree.
Loni

Loni-

That is nearly word for word the advice I've given a few people in the past...and when they've managed to get the WS to do it, the results can be pretty awesome.

Dazed- I would absolutely challenge her to this. Tell her how good it would look for the lawyers and the judge if she truly did something like this...but that it would have to be REAL...not faked...NO CONTACT at all during that time with OM. Let her know that it would help her to reconnect with DD big time...don't even mention how much it would help her to reconnect with you.

Ask her to realize that if what is going on with OM is 'true love'...then three months wouldn't hurt them at all...but it COULD fix things up with DD. (you and I both know that it would create the perfect setting for withdrawl, as long as you keep NC in place).

Last thing, and I don't know if everyone will agree with me...but....

I'd cut back on the flowers, the physical contact, etc... it SOUNDS to me as though you're feeling needy...and that is always a big no-no in these circumstances. Do the little things that show I love you, but let her have to look for them sometimes...don't keep it right in her face...because I think that may be part of the anger right now. But if you were to 180 this a little bit...make her start MISSING that affection some...that might help. I leave the REAL advice in this area to the experts here...just my thoughts on the matter.

Frank-I think she wants to do a 2 week trial of life with no contact from me. OM knows that when she is home with me she starts to come out of the fog that he has worked so hard to help build. It is now really pissing him off. She told me in one of our down to earth talks that he hates it when I come back home. He thinks that "I" break her down and twist her head around. He knows he has to get her away from me.
My thoughts are: He knows that once he severs "us" he has complete isolation of her and then believes he will have complete control. When she is with him for a while I believe he feels he has her. Its when she comes home she starts to slow down and get cold feet. Plus, this summer when I did not know what was happening and I was not around there sick little love affair had to be all perfect. I think they are trying to get that back my self. We all know that will never happen for them. The bubble is burst and now real life is all that is left. They just don't see that yet.

2 week option:
I don't think I have a choice to stop her from leaving. She is going to go. OM has to be putting the whip to her to get her out. I think she wants to do a two week divorce test drive.
I think she is going to go anyway. Getting me to agree to it will just ease her guilt and keep the door open call off he custody dogs. Her attourney told her if she leaves, forget any chance of winning custody at all.

There was no talk of anything last night. WW went over to my EXSIL last night. The one shacking up with her OM that she walked off from her family for. She spent three hours over there. I'm sure getting great advice.

While her and daughter was out. I did laundry.
FRANK- It's what I see on certain items. I don't want to discuss..
I cleaned the rest of the house. I went and seen OM's EXW.
Yes, I went to visit with OM's EXW. I have felt bad about WW and OM attacking her because of my last conversation with her. She had asked me to not contact her until her divorce was final. So, I thought I really wanted to appologize. She was very nice and friendly with me. I met her new boy friend and I talked with her out side for 10 or 15 minutes. She seemed very happy and looked it. I actually felt inspired afte talking to her. She is just happy to be rid of such a loser. I'm happy for her too.
There was little talk about my current sitch.
She told me a few things I did not know. Such as WW called her 3 or 4 weeks ago at work. WW asked her if me "BS" was harrasing her or scaring her. OM's EXW told her know he was nice to me. I just don't want involved into your mess. I can't deal with OM's threats so leave me out it. WW says, would you tell me some stuff about OM if I need your help. She says, NO.. You will just have to live it.

I went on to the store bought some CD's and groc. for the house.
When the girls got home, I gave a new CD to daughter. It was one her favorite bands so she was all excited. It came with a DVD so we rushed into the front room to turn it on. WW came into the room and said. Daughter, I will buy you something when I get paid. I just don't have any money right now. Daughter was focused on reading the CD case, so she kinda blew off WW's comment.
WW was hurt and ran upstairs and climbed into bed in the spare room. I went up later to check on her. She was curled up and look sad. I kissed her shoulder and told her I love her.
This morning when I went in to wake her she was angry. I touched her hair, she turned away. She said, do you like buying her gifts when you know I can't afford to. I said, WW... Come on now. I buy her a 10 dollar cd and you take it personal. I'm sorry you took it that way. Why should affection for daughter feel like a competition? I got an easy way to solve this. You stay home and there are no games. Can't it be just that easy. I left to take the dog out. When I returned I seen that she had posistioned pillows in the bed to simulate some one next to her. I said, WW I wanted to offer to lay with you and hold you for a few minutes. You look either cold or alone in here. She said, I would say no thanks. Why would you be concerned about me being warm or wanting to hold me in the morning now. In a soft voice, I said, okay okay. Have a good day... Have a good life. I went on to the shower. When I came out she was setting in front of the door. I just walked on past. Later in the basement she came down to look for cloths to wear. She seen the full basket of her cloths I had washed. She nelt down and looked at the floor for a minute. I said, I hope you feel better today and figure out what you want today. Left the room.
I took daughter to school, went by and picked up some rolls for breakfast. I got some for WW and dropped back by the house and left them with her. She was not very excited. Just said, I don't why you got me breakfast. I don't eat breakfast and will just through it away. I said, okay. I know you don't normaly eat breakfast. Just thought you could take it to work with you. No big deal. Bye.

Dazed --

Here is the way through her fog...

Start talking to her about how SHE has changed. Tell her she is different. That she is not the same woman you've known all these years. The woman that has been DD's mother all these years would NEVER have missed her first swim meet. The woman you married was an honorable, loving woman with values and morals -- the woman you loved would never have an affair. (this does two things -- reinforces the guilt she's having about disappointing DD, and explains why you have to fight for custody of DD...)

Work on her from this angle -- Having an affair and leaving your family is WRONG. If you want to break up our family --we need to discuss our problems, work to overcome them -- if that doesn't work then we divorce. But not because of an affair. Thats not the right way. You will never forgive yourself if you break up our family this way. I don't want you to have to live with that forever. (this will reinforce the disappointment she has in herself. She's having a battle with herself right now -- Her TAKER is who is in control right now.)

When she asks "why are you doing this to me?" Tell her: You are doing this. You had an affair, you filed for divorce. I am only dealing with the results of your actions. (don't talk about OM or blame him, it makes her defend him and further sets the justifications in her mind...however say the words "you're having an affair" as many times as you can!!!)

Keep painting a positive picture of the future. With or without her.

At this point you need to stress FAMILY TIME...not romance. She cannot think of you in those terms right now.
It will make her angry. Those roses would have pissed me off. Why now? Why not a year ago when it would have made a difference? Now its just because you're afraid of losing me, not because you really care about me.

You need to show her you're not afraid of being without her.
Thats how she'll start to respect your changes -- if she begins to believe they are not about keeping her.

Lexxxy is correct. This should be your mantra.

On the idea of a trial divorce...NO WAY! Dont you agree to anything like that. She is your wife, and by agreeing, then you are condoning her adultery. Her committing adultery should ALWAYS be wrong and you should not help it one bit.

Sure, she may go anyway. But if you agree to let her go for two weeks, then a judge will think that you believe that it is okay for her to commit adultery in some instances. Do not fall for this trap. You must be steady handed...and ALWAYS right.

Tell your wife that you do not agree with her committing adultery. That you cannot condone nor participate in it. You are willing to do a 6 month trial with her coming home and working on the marriage (with NC with the OM). But if she wants it the other way, then the divorce and custody hearings continue.

Tough love sometimes means telling the other person "no."

In His arms.

Bigger- Thank you for your kind words. If I tell her she can't go, that will LB. If I tell her I will not support her plan she will still be angry but not as.

Mr.W- I agree it's a two week test. Her love for OM vs. ME. Will she miss me...Will she miss her daughter and home.
Will OM and her recapture that fantasy island magic that "I" have put a stop to.
I agree. Two weeks will do nothing to help. Any fraud could pull off two weeks if left all alone with his willing victim.

Loni-OWL- I love the idea of the counter offer. I have pitched that one to her several times. It goes right on past with out a bite. She only thinks of test drives with out me not with me. I know 3 mo. would do it.
Guys keep in mind that OM has tried to reverse plan B her. He has threatened to dump her if she don't hold up her end.
Two weeks ago, she told me that he wanted out because of our craziness. Then that night he lets her in and she was at his place until 2:30 AM.
His tactics have great influence on her right now.
If she has offered him test drive plans, which I'm sure she probably has, he would probably make her think no way and you will lose me if you do it..
He is doing the carrot on a stick to her. You know she tells him everything. I would not be surprised if he has not been to MB and looked around. Early on I told her about MB. Gave her some stuff to read, and she talked once to Steve H. When I presented MB ideas to save our marriage she told me I was un-original, further adding to her thinking I'm a fraud and not really changing.

I have to agree about your comments about me looking needy. She said Saturday when accusing me of pretending. "I think your grasping at anything". Of course you have always bought me flowers, but lunch from the cafe... You don't eat there, you have seldom brought me lunch and or had not started eating with out me.
Okay- I'm showing her the stuff she always wanted. Is it too much all at once. Maybe...
That might also help her figure I'm pretending.
The thing is if she goes through with the divorce or leaves the house any way. (Which was her and OM's plan all along). There will be no more opps for me to do those things for her.

I have thought about doing the little things. Letting her come to me just like Sunday after noon. She came to me.. I had to really work at getting her to open up. But she did a little. I know its chipping away.
I'm scared of what will happen when she is gone. I know OM will be there pouring toxins all over her. Right now she likes that...
We all know she is scared of the future. With me and with out me. That is it....
The thing that she just can't do is buy into the "with me".
If she would, I believe we would have the fairy tale. I know many of you think, how could he just forgive and forget all these horrible things she has done to him. I ask myself the same question. Then I remember how sweet and good she was before this. The little girl and woman that I new and loved may be a memory, but I know her heart is still there. Then ALL of the Love Busters I have done to her. I lost my self in my own devices. I do punish myself for what I have done. I selfishly chased a carrer while leaving her behind. The past three years i was not the man that she fell in love with.
I do not blame myself for her affair or her lies and lack of honesty. I do know if I had loved her the right way, our marriage would have been affair proof.

Don't let any one tell you "racing" is not an addiction.
I can write you a book about racing and my story. The bottom line is, chasing a dream cost me everything. The time it takes to build a racing team, own it, build it, drive it, pay for it... My wife after the first year and a half started to back away from supporting me in racing. I did little to try to keep in envolved. The summer months were mostly spent in the race shop preparting for Saturday night. I always came home to her. Just late or later than I promised. I became a liar. I would tell her two to three hours. It became four to five. I told her I would be home two or three nights a week all night with the family. It would be one or two. Then family Sunday's were stressed because I was exhausted from the week and Saturday night racing. She was frustrated because of not being with her during the week.
She was my only real friend. She was my best friend. I lost that with her. She made new friends to fill my gap. When I was home I focused on our daughter. I coached her sports teams, taught her all I could. Me and wife lost all personal time together. Even time alone for sex was religated to the Sunday after noons or late at night. There was no chance for romantic sex because it was always rushed. My jestures of affection ran farther and fewer in between. When I did something, it was meet with anger and frustration. Because I was not meeting her needs as a friend she would ask more of me. Nothing I did was good enough. She wanted a better home, cloths, cars, material things. I know now it was cries for help. She would call and ASK when we could get together. ASK when i would be home so she could plan dinner. ASK when i would be able to go to the gym with her. ASK if she could spend money out of our account to go shopping. I know now she was ASKING FOR ME.. She was really REACHING for me. I did not see it as that. I was blind. I was focused on my job which is stressful and I have worked very hard and have been promoted three times in eight years to a manager. I started a racing team from nother December 2001. I have built a that into a semi-professional program with regional and some national sponors and respect.
You know the real let down of all it................
I was so alone myself..... The hole inside me just kept getting bigger and bigger no matter how hard I worked. The more I accomplished the better I thought i would feel. It did not help. I went from building a racing dream to winning races. I though success would make me happy...
It only made me feel worse. I missed her so much, but could not stop my life.... I loved her the entire time I was hurting her.... She don't believe me.... It took me so long to realize that hole I kept tring to file with other things was living with out her... The woman I love.
You know the biggest race I ever won in a race car she was not there to celebrate with me. I did some pretty heroic things on the track that night to win and the only thing I remember is looking for my wife when I got out of the car and asking someone to give me a cell phone so I could call her... What should have been my highest high, is my lowest low of racing....
You see I did this to myself.... I did it... She loved me unconditional for years. There was many good times and great times. The last three years I have become a man I hate. A man that was lost in chasing a path that lead to a world of lonliness. Racing is an addiction. Racing was my OW. I did not have sex with it but, I was obsessed with it. It took over my life. My time, my thoughts, my money.
This is where the part of including your spouse into your life really hit me. I did not walk through life with her. My mental house did not include my wife in every room. Racing was a room she did not like. She removed herself from it. I just kept building that room larger and larger and larger. I always wanted her in there, but did not know why she was not in there.
She is a passive person by nature. She could not communicate with me her emotions and feelings. Here attempts to reach me went unanswered.
I did not even realize her motivation to moving to another city was to start our marriage over again. She had blamed our small town life as the thing holding us back. She had blamed her old job for stress in her life. She blamed the local law for not protecting us. She did not want to blame me.. She loved me... When we moved to the new city, not much really changed. She got a new exciting job with young people her age. She quickly made new friends. Me, I was busy working on our new home, her car, coaching daughters basketball, prepairing for the up coming racing season.
I made a large sum of money over the past winter buying and selling racing equipment. Which also took much time.
She was angry that things in our new home was not really much better than before. This I know now. Here new friends was asking her to do new things with them. Go to social events that were not options in our small town. I did not go because of why?? TIME... It was at one of these events that she met OM... His wife was mad at him so he went alone. I blew my wife off so she went with a girl friend. It was there it all started for them. They hit it off. She was lonely like you can not imagine. Desprite for fun and happiness. He was struggling to make his wife happy...
The large sum of money you ask... She wanted me to build her a new bath room in the house. Really badly I might add.
I told her no, we have to wait. I needed that money for capital to broker another sale. She got very angry. Took it personal. Something she wanted I would not do for her. Again me being selfish.
The final straw.
I sold my last years race car. She was so excited it was gone. Kept hinting what I was going to do now... I told her buy a new one. She was sad, but kept asking me. At the same time she came to me almost demanding a new car. I looked around a bit. I told her give me some time. I now know she wanted me to spend that race car money before I could get a new one. On anything just not another race car.
I did buy a new one. The week I brought it home she was never the same again. Right there she gave up on me.
Two weeks later she gave me one last chance. I agreed to look on ebay for her a car. She found one herself. It was a nice looking car. Lincoln LS. However, ebay cars scare me. I did bid on it. She was so excited to get it. I think even told her friends, and OM I was getting her this car. I missed the bid and we lost it. She was crushed.
I told her I wanted to buy one through one of my friends at the dealer. She lost it. Cried and cried...
The next night she accused me of hiding money and demanded to know where all our money is going. We got into a huge fight.. I said alot of horrible things. Accused her of being materialistic and only mad because of the bath room and car. Thinking god woman.. I just bought you a new house, and other stuff.. What more can I buy for you. I just spent 1000 on new wheels for you mustang... She said something that night as she walked off that at time I blew off. She said, we should just get divorced you would not even miss me. I thought she was just mad and being hurtful.

The last time she offered me a kiss was the night we bid on that car... March 1st... Her affair with OM started two weeks later one week after she made that divorce comment.

She was so serious.... I was so stupid..... It was right there she gave up me...

You see I blew it... I let life come between the most important thing in my life. The little girl that caught my eye when I was 12 years old. The girl I had a crush on ever since. The woman I promised to love and take care of to god, I let down. I broke her heart. I wore her down. She did fight for us, just with out the right tools.

I was so stupid I just kept thinking once I'm done with this next thing, I will go home to her and we will get back on track. Then the next thing would happen, then the next thing. Then three years have happened... I still right now don't know where it all went... I get sick just thinking about it. TIME.....

So you see the size of the mountain I'm climbing. Really she does not owe me another chance.... All I know if she gives it to me, I will never break her heart again. I will never live a day with out her as my equal or by my side. IF SHE WOULD JUST LET ME...
Of course she is scared....

I have quit racing. All of it is now being sold off. Even if she does not come back to me. It is a very unhealthy addiction. I had to loose myself to find out. Hit rock bottom if you will...

I just wanted you all to see the main reason why my wife just can not give me a chance.
I am a man full of love for her. I will always dream of her as my angel. I will forgive her for all of this even if she can not forgive me for what I did.
I no longer want to fill that void inside me with time eating things.... I know now what that void is.... Missing my friend, my best friend, my sole mate, my wife....

Dazed -- when you come back to update your thread do you read what people say to you?

I feel like I am invisible.
And Mort too. I think some of the things he's written to you are invaluable. And it feels to me like nothing is getting through to you.

You still have work to do. If you still love her - don't let her do this to HERSELF. I've got more to say on that topic -- but not unless I know you're listening.

Dazed,

I am not good with words and you are getting so much solid advice here so I HAD planned on sitting and just learning from your story. BUT…

The last part of your last post… the part about the racing…

Copy that text into a word-processors, do some slight alterations so that it is written for your wife, print it out and give it to her. It is a beautiful analysis of where you went wrong in your marriage and also shows that you realize this and have already taken steps to fix it.

Maybe Mortarman can tell you whether there is any threat in WW using this text against you in the divorce. Maybe you should just read this to WW but you should let her hear your story.