Daughter did not go...
She is home with me and we have spent the night watching TV.


WW is AWOL again. No call or appearance home. I have the doors locked. If she shows, she will have to ring the door bell.

She must have figured daughter would be gone so she would not be exposed to her worthless mothers actions... Once again she is wrong....

Good job with DD Dazed.

What a great THANKSGIVING....

WW left with D to eat early lunch at Ex-SIL's. Shortly after getting there Ex-SIL said how bad she felt about WW and D leaving "me" alone on Thanksgiving and if I would not come over to be with them then she would ask her son to call me and beg me to go see my brother. This made WW feel like crap and she left daughter there and got in her car and drove off.
I learned this later when WW called me from a pay phone telling me about how everyone made her feel bad for being so horrible to me and what she is doing cheating on me. She said she was just going to be alone like me and I could go get my daughter.
I called over there.. They were already eating so I told daughter I would be over in later to get her and go to see my wifes family that invited us and maybe some of my family. However, my family has an early dinner as well and most was leaving after wards.
SO, I get over there.. WW had called telling daughter to stay until 4PM then she would come get her and they would go home. So, daughter is now all upset not wanting to go see anyone because she is fearful that everyone will ask where is your mom or how is she doing or how is your dad...
She said, she did not want to deal with that... So I said, okay. Fair enough.. Me and you can just go home and be together... She asked if she could atleast stay for desert and eat ice cream... I allowed that. What would it hurt now. Ex-SIL told me she was sorry for creating a big mess for us. She said, she thought all us were coming. She tought we had no where else to go. I said, yeah.. WW just thought she could come over here with daughter and have no one ask about what she is doing.. She could have her time with daughter, then sneak off with her OM the entire I think she is there with daughter... Ex-SIL said, she thought that too after she left earlier and is so sorry for getting in the middle of things.
BTW- WW has never returned.. Last heard from her at 12:15 from a pay phone.. It's now 5:30.. Ex-SIL tells me she called over there and told her that she would come back and get daughter at 8PM...Not even knowing I had already picked her up...
Now Daughter is upset.. Does not want to go see any family. My entire time with daughter is now shot.. WW has most likely been with OM all day and who knows probably at his parents house.
Me, I am sick of all of this _hit.
First Thanksgiving in 15 years with out her or family.
Today was a joke. WW totaly ruined all it.. Underminded the entire day for me and daughter... Well maybe she atleast got what she wanted...
Me watched tv all afternoon and now setting with an angry kid for the rest of the evening.

Dazed....

Sorry to hear that. There is a lot of pressure around holidays....we put a lot of expectations on ourselves....Your ex_SIL expected you all to be together....not unreasonable but given the situation not very realistic....sadly so.

Your WW is still in the fog. She does think that noone should be wondering about the situation....in her and OM's mind it should not be seen as a big deal...

And than she calls you to complain to you and get your sympathy.....been there....

Try to enjoy the rest of the night and the weekend....Relax....you'll probably have to deal with WW soon....

Daisy

I am not going to pretend I can tell you what to do. At best I can give you some ideas to toss around – just to find options.

It sounds as if your DD is getting sucked into WW sick world in a serous way. As a father I think DD could be a higher priority than saving WW from the personal ****** she is determined to go to. Maybe- just maybe it is time to give up on the good fight you have been putting up and file for divorce. After WW behavior on Thanksgiving and her basically abandoning DD your case for custody is so much better and it was quite good already.

Maybe your WW stopped her divorce proceedings for the reason many suggested: create a better legal case. When push comes to show she can not take part in the façade and her true feelings come forth. Her dependency on OM.

A divorce might also be the final shove required to get WW off that pesky fence.

I admire your persistence and I do not want to bring pessimism to you but I truly believe you have to give this some thought. I think you have done a fantastic Step A but if it always worked there would be no Step B.

Although you might not think there is much to give thanks for then please look at yourself. Reading from your posts you have transformed yourself from a self-centered man to a loving father and caring husband.

I think you have done a fantastic Step A but if it always worked there would be no Step B.

Very true....

Dazed, I cannot remember now, have you talked to the Harleys at all....I do think you have done a good Plan A. Not too long but it is good (ok, so you had that slip up with OM - I remeber) but there is no doubt in my mind that WW is seeing the changes you have been making. She probably wishes you would LB....they like to have that ammunition against us...so don't LB....walk toward Plan B with a good Plan A behind you.....I don't know if you are ready for Plan B or not, I will not push you to it, we all have to get there when we get there. I myself thought I could last till March....boy was I optimistic. I realized no way. H was killing all the love I had for him....seriously, my LB was draining very fast lately....

You know where you are and how much you can take....talking to the Harleys might be helpful as well.

Daisy

Dazed, I cannot remember now, have you talked to the Harleys at all....
_____________________________
Yes, I have talked with Steve four times...Because my wife fits the neglected walk off wife mold, he keeps telling me a very loving Plan A to try to show her consistant changes in my life that lead to her neglect. Even after she brought home the divorce papers, Steve said, Plan A. I have not spoke with him since her stopping of the divorce.
However, I see she has really launched a big effort to buy back daughters affection and undermind me at the same time.
JUST TODAY: She bought daughter a cell phone with out my knowledge or approval. So when I take it away, who is the bad guy? This is just a way to buy back points with daughter and now contact her when WW is gone.
I have always believed if you do your job as a parent the kids do not need a cell phone unless in special circumstances where I give her mine to borrow.....

A lot has happened again since my last update:
________________________________________________________
I will try to cut and paste from my Notes to here for review.
_______________________________________________________
UPDATE THURSDAY NIGHT / FRIDAY MORNING
The rest of the evening update:
6:30 I took daughter back over to Ex-SIL. I spent time with her and the 16 girl. I actually like her. She was working on a painting when we got back. I used to be into art and paints so we talked about that stuff for a while. Actually the 16 boy wanted to show me his pictures he has drawn too. I wanted to learn more about the kids that daughter has been hanging around and I think I did good there.
I left for a little while and got back at 8PM to pick her up for the night. WW was just getting out of her car when I got there. I was so ****** mad at her... I new I had better just pretend she was not there. So I ignored her for about 15 minutes while we stood in Ex-SIL's house waiting for daughter to get her stuff gathered up. The entire time I would not even look at WW. She made no attempt to contact me either. She did talk Daughter into riding home with her. Then when they got here they set out side in the car for about 30min.
When they came in they both went upstairs with out comment to me. I went up to check on Daughter. She was quite and not really wanting to talk to me. Figured WW said something to upset her. So I was presistant and I asked about christmas list and offered to make her something to eat. So Daughter loosened up. Then tells me that they are going to (city) in the morning to go Christmas shopping. I just said, that sounds like fun...
When I left the computer room that Daughter was in I caught WW in our bed room holding one of my dirty sweaters up to her face and breathing in the smell... She seen me but I acted like I did not see her...
Later she went down stairs to the couch. I took her a pop and some cookies with out a word spoken. I asked about her trip to Topeka. She said, It s Daughters idea.. I said, when are you going to let me do something about that car... Did you look at the mazda link I sent you? She just ignored me. I offered to let her drive my truck. She said, it's okay.

So I dropped it and found a movie to watch... American Pie 2. We both watched it for about and hour. She laughed out loud a few times so I figured she had to be in a good mood. Daughter went up to bed. I set beside WW, and asked if she was okay. Before she could reply, Daughter yells for her to come up stairs. Apparently she had told Kaylee she would sleep with her, so WW jumps up and heads upstairs with no comment to me.
After five minutes, I got the dog and went up to say good night to Daughter. I told Daughter to get up early so they could get to the stores early. Daughter says, yeah we have to leave early to go get a rental car too.... I said, what? WW says, well maybe we might get a rental so we don't have to worry about the car breaking down. I said, dealer car...huh. She was silent.

I went down stairs but after this day and then the blow off by her at home, then coming up with a plan to take Daughter out of town with out speaking to me about it. Then having a secret plan to go get another car to take, which was most likely going to come from OM since he now works at a car dealer...

There was no way I could just set through another night in solitude... Not then... So, I got up put on my shoes, went back and told WW I had to leave for awhile. She says, where are you going? I said, I just have to leave for a while.
I left, fueled up the truck and got on the highway. I called, WW and told her I was not coming home tonight. She asked why? After today I am just so hurt that I can't set at home and lay in bed and wish things were different between us. I am going to drive around until I get tired enough to sleep.
I stopped in (city), about 2 hours away. I called WW back from a hotel and told her that where I was. She said, I thought you ment around town... What are you doin?
I said, WW I love you...Don't forget that okay... This is just so painful for me.. I am sorry for telling you this... It's just how I am feeling and I don't have someone to run to that will help...
I am so hurt right now... I thought if I just did something it would ease my pain.. Setting at home alone is not helping. She said, I am sorry.
I said, WW it is a realationship with you that I would so very much like to have. Each time you reject me hurts so much, then the hurt becomes loneliness....Just being with you and having your time is what I would wish for if I only had one wish.. WW say, I have been there myself. I know how you feel.
I said, fifteen years WW. It had been fifteen years since we were apart on Thanksgiving. This day really sucked for me. She was silent.
I said, well sounds like you don't have much to say, so good night. She said, good night...

I checked into a hotel and went to sleep. I called home at 6:05AM to give them a wake up call.
WW called back at 7AM to ask about her car running to Topeka and how to check the water.
She said, thery were going to go. I called back at 8:35AM to make sure they got the water checked. No answer.
I got up went and ate breakfast and went shopping myself.
It was not easy. The first store I went to (Kohls), I walked around for about 15 minutes and had to leave. Memories of past shopping trips overwhelmed me. I just could not stop thinking about each time I took Jean in there and looking for cloths for her and all the little things that she does that makes her special. We always shop ther for Christmas. I recalled the last couple of Christmas shopping trips. I had to set outside in the truck and cry like a baby for 15 or 20 minutes. I just can't turn off the memories of us. They haunt me so much I just can't focus on anything right now. It is so hard to be positive and confident when I think of the wonderful little moments that we shared together.
After regrouping I went to the mall. As soon as I open the doors to the mall I here; All I want to do by Better than Ezra. This was one of those "OUR" songs we used to listen to over and over about 4 years ago before I got lost. I was able to keep going.
It was really hard to think about gifts for others... Seeing all the couples out shopping made me hurt inside. I had only thought I would by Daughter some gift but I ended up buying WW stuff to.
Not sure if that is wrong or not right now. I can always give them to daughter or return later.
I bought her some ear rings from Zales and got the free 120$ braclet. I also bought her a sweater. I have been told to NOT buy your WW gifts, but It is her birthday in three weeks and Christmas soon. I have never NOT bought her gifts. What do you think about this?
On my way home I questioned myself about how I talk to her about what my boundries. The arguement is do I tell her what hurts me so she will know or do I just let her do it. My thoughts are when I get hit with a hammer and it hurts, like blowing off me and Daughter on Thanksgiving and being AWOL, or leaving every night now for several hours and not say a word about it.
I know she will not like to here me say I am hurt. Many say that make me look unattractive. However, how will she know when I am hurt if I don't say so?
Kind of like me sending the wrong signals.. It's okay for you to be gone all evening every evening. It's okay to NOT be at home.. I don't care...When I do.
Remember OM tells her if I CARED about her then I would want all of her time and never let her be alone unaccounted for. HE makes her accountable for everything. Then theres me. Knowing she is having an affair. Leaving with out me saying a word, coming back when ever with out me saying a word..WHAT DO I DO.
I know she will not serve me at this point. Only OM.
HERE IS MY CONCERN WITH THIS;
She is now almost never around me. This is what HE wants. Remember he knows that when she is with me for any period of time her head gets all twisted around... That is a quote from WW that he told her.
SO, he is now getting her away from me more and more. I see it weening her away from me approach. I think she may also be thinking this way.
I see it working in some aspects... HOW? Well our open heart and mind talks have really fell off. Before it was every night, then 3 to 4 nights a week, now I have not spoke with my wife but for two hours two Sunday's ago and Last Sunday night when she says she was a sleep. Every other conversation has been with OM's girl friend.

I know I must sound like a whinner... I guess at times I am.

I thought when the time is right my next statement to WW would be this:
WW, I am going to win your heart over, and when I do it will be forever.
When she says something negitive. I am just going to say, you know I am going to do it. I know you want me to do it. Day by day, hour by hour, however long it takes, I will prove to you that I am the love of your life and I will win your heart back.

What do you think about that?

Also, was thinking of some ways to be creative to show my affection.. Small ways, but affective. Any ideas?
Send her a card or flowers to her work, drop off a pop to her at work, cook dinner for all of us, I need some ideas?
What do you think?

Also, what do you think about me giving WW a Plan A letter... Kind of like the B letter with out the get out and you can't see me stuff... This way she has the map to come home and also that I am still working for the day she does come home.. ANY IDEAS?
__________________________________________________________
UPDATE FRIDAY NIGHT:
I just did something that may have a major influence on things.
A five / ten minute talk with OM...

It was not intentional but, I put myself in the wrong place at the right time for it.

WW had not called me or left any messages. It was 7:30PM, 12 hours from my last talk with WW when she asked about checking her car out to go to (city) 90 miles away.

So I am thinking okay... She must have went because no one answered the home phone at 8:30AM today at our home.
No one is at EX-SIL's house.
So, I drive by OM's. Parked in his drive is his truck and a brand new black car with a dealer tag. I drive on around the circle drive cultasak out side walks OM. He goes to open his truck door when he see's me. I drive on to the end of his drive and roll my window down. He is shaking and yells for me to get off his property. I said, what did you just say.. He says you are on my _ucking property. I said, we both know you don't own this place but that is not why I am here.
You tell her she needs to call me ASAP. He says, she is not here. I said, oh really well who's driving the new car parked here. He says, I am. I said, and why do you have it.. He says, she is not here. I said, okay.. Like I said, she needs to call me about her daughter right now, oass it along. He says why? I said, it's about me making sure they are safe.

He says, I think she knows where her daughter is and she is probably okay. I said, you don't know _hit buddy. A 12 year old girl with a 16 year old boy is not okay.. He said, don't you trust your daughter. I said, Of course I trust my daughter... She is 12 and a girl. It is the boy that is not to be trusted, just like you. He says, well if you were 16 would you try anything on a 12 year old girl? If I were 16 I wouldn't. I said, _ell know I wouldn't but you know how guys are for 1) for two your are not a father...just look at you and what you have already done to my daughter.
You thought is was perfectly okay to go and have a sick affair with a married woman with two kids at home...He says, she did not have two kids... I said, because of you we now don't. He said, that kid was only a cousin. I said, and now she is nothing because of and your sick affair. He says, I would not call it that. I said, well would you call it right what you did and have done and are doing?????.... He says, only WW was guardian of that kid not you. I said, did you read the papers? He said, yes... I said, the papers read the Dazed family... He says, I don't think so. I said, back to the guestion...Do you think what you did and are doing is right? He said, No, I would not say that it is right. I won't appologize.. I said, I wouldn't accept it anyway. But you know as a former husband it NOT right what you are doing.. He said, I didn't say it is right, but do you think you had a normal marriage? Your wife going to clubs and parties and having fun??? I said, AND SOOOOOOO, what is wrong with that? He paused... Then said, nothing I suppose... But, what about you not coming home until late even when she begged you to. I said, you don't know the have of anything.. We have been together for 15 years, filled with many many great times. You have probably heard only the bad. He said, yes I have heard a lot of bad but some good too.
I said, problems in our marriage are for WW and me to work out.. Not you and us. He said, didn't she talk to you about that stuff and ask you to come home more... I said, she took our problems to you thinking you were her friend, and you used them all in your favor against us.. NO she did not try to work on things the correct way between the two of us.
There was another moment of silence...
I said, and you probably think I am some crazy person that is out of control too.. He says, WW says you think that about me too. I said, that is what I have been told by a couple people. He says, you need to consider the source... I said, Yes... You do to...
I said, you don't know half of whats going on man. I said, I love WW with all my heart. She is the most important thing in the world to me. I have made some mistakes in my marriage but, will do whatever it takes to make her happy.
He stops and looks at me... We just stared at each other for a minutes.

I said, what makes you think your not being strung on...How do you know were not both being strung on? I tell you what.. I don't know you personally at all. Because of that I don't hold anything other than this affair against you... okay... He was quite.
He took about ten steps closer to the truck almost like he was going to come to the door for a minute.
I said, OM... You need to let her make her own choices... Will you respect that? He said, yes.. I said, will you stand in the way of her coming home to work on our marriage if that is her choice... He said, I would respect that... He says, she tells me that you would not leave your house.. I said, OM... She has never asked me to leave.. In fact told me she would never aske me to leave. He said, well if she asked you to leave would you? I said, I would only consider what is in the best interest of saving our marriage. I would respect anything she wanted to do that would be for the marriage.
I said, I will give her the freedom to do what she wants. He said, she told me that she asked you for a divoce months ago. I laughed and said, she never asked for one until the day she carried the paper work home...
He stood there in silence.

I said, you need to let her do what she wants to do..... He said, that is what I want.. I said, me too.... Me too..
More silence.

He says, why did you go the lawyer first. I said, well if you were in my shoes, you just found out your wife is having an affair would you have not consulted a lawyer... I never filed for a divorce... I love her more than anything in the world... Why do you think I am here???
OM, I last talked to her at 7AM this morning... She was going to take Daughter to (city)... That car is a piece of $hit.. He says, yeah I know.. I said, yeah she probably told you that I would not buy her a car too... He was quite... I said, I have offered and offered since April... He was quite.
I said, long story short... I last talked to her at 7AM she was to get on the highway... I have not heard from her since... I love her... I am worried about her being broke down somewhere..
He says, well I really have not seen her but she did not go out of town. She took Daughter, and those other two kids shopping here in town today.

I told him that to bad we had to meet and again the only thing I hold against him is the affair and he needs to let her make her mind up. I drove off.

I was not more than three blocks away when the dealer car drive off...WW calls about twenty minutes later...Telling me she has daughter and daughter is upset from the way I treated her on the phone. I was rough on daughter when I finally got her on Ex-SIL's phone right after leaving OM's.

WW did not appologize for her actions and failure to notify me. She tried to justify her choice to not inform me by saying stuff about me in the past leaving and not checking in crap.. Real week... I told her that has no bearing on right now and saftey of you and our daughter.
I am only being her father and I will protect her. You NOT checking in to let me know where our daughter is or asking my opinion and not letting me know you were back in town is wrong... She did not argue. They were home in the next 15 minutes. I had to get dinner because Daughter had not eaten. 10:30PM.. Thanks MOM..
I got WW food as well.. Pretty much ate and went to sleep on the couch. I put daughter in bed, I am here typing.

So how many points do you think this OM talk is going to set me back?
I think I shocked him.. He expected me to be some crazy guy full of rage and attack him I think. I would have if I not for loosing custody of daughter...
When I left him, it was a very weird awkword talk, but I felt like he wanted to keep talking. His entire demeaner changed from hostile to near friendly.

First off it appears WW is doing nothing to help her custody case. If her lawyer and her plotted a way for her to get custody she is to addicted to OM to apply it. I think it is more likely her attorney advised her she would likely lose custody so she just pulled the divorce off the table without discussing a future strategy. She has given you more to put in your journal though she is trying to irresponsible win over DD with gifts. You should have a discussion with DD about this...how divorced parents try to win favor with children by purchasing gifts and though she may not like it you will remain her responsible parent. Tell her you are proud of her for strength during this difficult time and that none of this is her fault.



It is a way better confrontation than you ever had before. Congratulations on staying calm. I previously would not have advised you to have any contact with him based on your prior actions but you handled the "accidental" contact quite well. Will this set you back? I think not. Remember the affair can end two ways...OM can break things off with your wife too. You did a great job of informing him of things he did not know. You attacked his insecurities with a friendly authoritative tone. I find it odd your wife did not lay into you about the conversation when she got home. Maybe OM left out many details pointing out only the "awesome" way he handled you with a "friendly" conversation. I wish WW was more in conflict with you as opposed to withdrawal because you did tell him things that he did not know...which should have pissed off wife.

All is fair in love and war. Your WW is not deserving of radical honesty right now. That is a MB principle for marriages. Your wife is not in the marriage right now so I would suggest that radical honesty does not apply. In an effort to bust up the affair you may lie a little about your conversation with OM to WW. When she brings it up she will already have OM's side of the conversation so you should ask what he said about it. There is no way he could relate it to her, then her to you, with 100% accuracy. You should point out his ommissions so WW will question why he withheld this and that and you can point out the discrepancies as his lies. I also suggest making up a few things. Perhaps you plant some seeds of doubt in your wife like maybe when you supposedly asked him "wouldn't it be simplier to go out and date a single girl OM, why do you want WW when there are a million single women out there?" he responded with "yes, this all is getting a bit hard on me and I have had second thoughts". Now you and I know he did not say this but who is she going to trust? She's known you a lot longer and he is just a "boyfriend". He may deny it but will she believe it. He may become infuriated at you and/or her. Whatever, the reaction he is likely to love bust your wife with denials and defensiveness.

If she questions your side of the conversation do not be too defensive. Just ask her who she trusts and leave it at that. Let her internal battle of who to trust consume her.


Sure he wants to be friendly. If he is having second thoughts he may see you as a nice guy and end up breaking up with WW. More likely he still intends on taking her away but he would love it if you all could just get along and be "friends". I like your line the the affair is the only thing you hold against him because he has no idea how BIG that is. To him it's just a little old affair. Happens all the time. No big deal. OM's wants to be liked too and you did a good job of humanizing his victum. You will catch him off guard when you twist his words and be prepared for him to have misinterpreted your words as well.

One thing I was not sure of...did WW drop your daughter off at SIL's (with 16 y/o boy around) after they went shopping so she could leave and go see OM? If so, get the time and find out what DD did at SIL's house and who was there. Sounds like a good journal entry.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

No offense Mr W but..
DAZED don't lie.... there is ENOUGH lying going on... remain the honest person... let them be the the ones that lie...God is on your side....he hates lies....

I respectfully disagree. Yes, God is on Dazed side and God will respect all the weapons Dazed utilizes to defeat the infidels including his ability to lie. I could have sugarcoated my advice but choose to call it what it is. Yes, utilize lies to defeat satan. Attack OM's insecurities and wife's insecurities about OM. Place doubt into their relationship however you can. Bust up the affair which is in direct opposition to God. It is Dazed duty to pull his wife out of the fires of ****** and utilize all his powers and abilities to save her and defeat OM.

PLEASE HELP...should Dazed invite WW to read his journals, read his thread, explain Plan A and Plan B. Obviously not. We are already coaching some dishonesty. Dazed wife is not herself right now. She is walking through the desert and Dazed is her lighthouse trying to guide her home. God gave us the ability to be deceiptful...does Dazed not have the right to use this ability in defense of God's plan and to get his wife to honor their marital covenant?????

I do acknowledge I could be wrong. Mortarman would probably (strike probably) have a much better way of saying this.

I repeat all's fair in love and war. A word of caution perhaps...when you lie to lieing cheats they could beat you with experience so be careful.

Mr. Wondering

Okay,

On lying....

I think I may get lammed due to "definitions," but let me have a go at this anyway. first off, I think we should never lie. If I had steak for dinner, I shouldnt say I had chicken. That is a lie. If my wife asks during the affair, if I had followed her to the OM's house (and let's say I did), then I shouldnt tell her that I did not follow her. That would be a lie.

So, how to not lie but also "spin" the truth to my advantage (I think that is what Mr. Wondering is talking about).

In the example above about following my wife, instead of telling her "Yes, I followed you," or lying and saying I didnt follow her...I think there is a third way. A way which allows you to be technically truthful but to get the same desired effect that a lie would have.

Probably the best way to do this is to answer the question with a question. "Honey, do you think I followed you." And let's say this conversation is one where my wife thinks tht I have been following her, but has no proof. And she has been trying to keep her trips to OM's house secret. by asking her that question back, I do two things:

1. I first avoid having to answer whether I am following her; and
2. If she answers "no", to the question...then I just say "Well, if you dont think I am following you, why would you ask?" If she answered "yes" to the question, then she has admitted that she thinks I am following her to the OM's house. Now, by saying that, she has admitted to going to the OM's house. You see, by saying that she believes that I am following her to the OM's house, the presupposes the fact that she is going to his house. I cannot follow her to the OM's house if she wasnt going there.

Do you see? By turning the question back to her, you allow her to actually be the one under "attack" instead of you.

Now, let's say you have no choice but to answer the question. You are unable to ask a question of her. Well, in the instance of her asking you if you followed her to the OM's house, you could say "Honey, I am abut saving this marriage and I will do whatever it takes to do that."

did I answer the question? No, I did not. Not really. I said I WOULD do anything to save the marriage...I did not say I DID anything to save the marriage, which includes following her.

Now, some may say that I am not lying, but I am being deceitful. That may be so. But, as Mr. Wondering stated, liars are much better at lying than us. And to be caught in a lie forces you onto their level in their eyes...which justifies everything they are doing.

By not lying, you dont have to remember the lie. And you cant get caught in a lie. My wife still today comes up to me and mentions something I said or supposedly did during her affair...something that didnt actually happen the way she thinks, but she got the impression it did due to my obfuscation...and I'll just tell her now "Honey, I didnt do that." And the confusion on her face is huge, because she had this whole impression based on lack of data and with me presenting the data in a way that allowed her foggy, WS brain to process it into something else.

Maybe this makes sense to you. I hope so. Never, ever lie. But that doesnt mean you have to lay all of your cards on the table...or even answer the question. Yo uare in a war, as Mr. W has said. Use everything at your disposal to win. But not every tactic (like lying) should be used, as it actually hurts you in the end.

In His arms.

Thank you Mortarman;

I was actually advising farther than that but in trying to keep within your guidelines would it be a lie for Dazed to say the following:

When discussing the conversation he had with OM with his wife can he slip in a question or statement to the effect questioning whether OM is having second thoughts like:

"I got the feeling from our conversation that OM was having second thoughts"

or maybe a question:

"WW, is OM having second thoughts about your relationship"...then let her wonder what he means and if questioned specifically just say it was something he was wondering after his conversation with OM.

Not to threadjack...but, Mortarman...is the ability to be deceiptful a God given talent? Didn't the tribulation force use deceipt against Nicholae in the Left Behind series? Don't many here often advise uncertain BS's to use the Private Investigator bluff to hopefully force a denying WS to fess up to an affair (where no such "proof" exists)???

Mr. Wondering

Hey Mr. W,

Yeah, a quick threadjack (hope you dont mind, Dazed).

Oh, I love the idea of seeding doubt. But as you said, what you suggested for him to say would be a lie. So, let's ask the question here...is there a better way of saying this and seeding doubt, without actually lying? Let me think for a sec....


So, how do we take this statement and do what you just talked about, Mr. W? All without lying? How about...

"You know honey, while we were talking, I asked deadbeat if he thought you might be stringing you along. His reaction was telling."

Did I lie at any point here? Nope. did I allow her overactive imagination to think? She will ask "What do you mean his reaction was telling?" My response would be "maybe you should ask him."

Of course, she will ask him. But will she believe him? The key to doing this is the facial expressions. I need to make her believe that I know a lot more than I actually do.

So, you see, I can accomplish the same thing you propose, without saying one untruthful thing.

Oh, and on what you said about the PI...no, we should never threaten anything. If we say we are going to do it, we do it. If I am going to get a PI, I am sure not going to tell my wife beforehand. If I do not plan on getting one, then there is no reason to lie about it. I can instead allow my wife thru the methods I stated above, to think that intel operations are ongoing.

Hope that helps!!

In His arms.

ob`sess´

To excessively preoccupy the thoughts or feelings of; to haunt the mind persistently.
v. i. 1. To be excessively or persistently preoccupied with something; - usually used with on or over; as, to obsess over an imagined insult.


You ARE obsessed. The things you are doing are NOT making you more attractive to your wife.

Get a NEW game plan. The one you are using is not going to work. You need to show your wife a different "personna" than the one you have been showing her.

Your problem is NOT whether you are lying to her or not.


PURSUING HER WILL NOT WORK. STOP PURSUING AND CHASING.


Be nice, be pleasant, be happy, be confident, stop all relationship talk, and DROP THE PRESSURE..
You will then find out that she will SLOWLY come around.(and not before)

Yes, I also have been thinking about the conversation with OM. WW has still not said anything about it. I think she was there and maybe even heard it.. So, 1) she need not ask any questions about it.. She may have been there.
2) If she was there she don't want to talk about it because that will be another BIG black mark on her in the court room.

I really expected her to really go off on me today about it. She did not. I do think she either was there or has already heard about it...
She was angry last night about me QUESTIONING her judgement to leave daughter with strangers and a 16 yo boy.
She quoted a comment I made to other man word by word...That makes me think she was there... Just like you guys said, something always gets lost in the translation...

TODAY UPDATE:
Last night I tried to be friendly with her. We watched tv and she complained about her feet and neck from walking all over yesterday. Normal thing okay..
This morning she gets up and I hear her walking around. Stops and looks at me in our room then goes on to daughters room and gets into bed with her. About an hour later I get up and cook rolls for breakfast. Take out trash, clean dishes, the couters, basically the kitchen.
I take WW and daughter rolls and juice up to them.
WW gets upset and leaves the room. Me and daughter set and visit a little about today and working on decorating our home for Christmas. Daughter leaves for the shower and WW returns and sets down on the bed. She says, daughter just ask me to help her with the Christmas tree..
What are you doing? Why would you even think about putting up a tree and decorating the house??? It is just to make me feel even more guilty isn't it? I said, WW it is almost December.. Christmas is a tradition and this is what we do every year, why would this make you feel guilty.
She said, do you think I would actually take part in Christmas this year? I can't even look at you right now and not feel guilty. Just walking into this house makes me feel guilty, walking by your room makes me feel guilty.. Do you think if you put up a Christmas tree everything is going to be okay, because there not.. What do I have to do for you to give up on me. There is no us and I am going to leave here. I am going to rent that house from my friend. I will not be here for Christmas. All this and you still think it is not to late.. BS it is just to late for us. Why can't you see that? I don't even know who you are any more. Now you cook breakfast and bring it to me in bed. Now you are home all the time, Now you do all the laundry, clean the house, and everything I wanted from you for years... You, the most self centered selfish SOB is now doing all this NOW.. I know this is not you. This is not the person that never came home on time, did anything on time, would do anything with out it being your way.. Now you change... Maybe you will treat your next woman like you should treated me.
I said, I was selfish. You are right WW.. So very right. That is one of my goals to change and as you can see I am working very hard on that. I am for real WW. As you will see in time, I will prove this to you. You know no hard I work. I am going to work harder on myself than anything else I have ever done. When you are ready to come back to me I will be ready to show you that it will last forever.
She says, do you really think I will come back to you? What makes you think that is possible. I said, I know you still have love for me inside you, and I just believe in us WW. She says yes, I do love you but I am not in love with you and I am not coming back. It is too late.. I have moved on... Why can't you see that? I am not in love with you any more...
I told her, that I do no believe in to late.. She says, YES IT IS... I know you are moving on. That is why you changed bank accounts.. Why did you do that? I said, I left the other on open with money it, right. A new account to pay the major bills out of is what I am using it for. She says, why? I said, WW.. I need to make sure I can pay the house payment and right now leaving it in the joint account seems a risk. You would do the same wouldn't you.
She said, why leave the other account open then. I said, it has money in it. I will keep money in it incase you need some. That is why it is open. For you.. She says, well I won't use it..
She said, are you just going to lay around here all sad and depressed for ever when I am gone? You should go back to racing. It will take your time and you can meet a new girl that is into that stuff.
I said, well if you don't come back it will be your lose. I will make good on my promises to never be a selfish person again.
She says, well you should go back to racing. Why don't you?
I said, Racing was very unhealthy for me as a person. I will not return to that addiction, as soon as people come forward with money to buy the equipment, it is gone forever.
That ended out talk.
Later down stairs she just keeps throwing words at me over the dumbest stuff. I said, WW.. Just stop okay. I know what you are doing and it is not going to work. You just want me to fight with you. Well its not going to work. If you want to fight, take it up with someone else. She sets confused looking for a minute. Says, well last year at Christmas all I remember is when you got mad and drove fast to your mothers. I said, WW what does last year have to do with today or this year? I am not going to fight with you. okay.
She stomps off.. Comes back at me later complaining about me not emptying the dumpster every week and how she remembers with she had to lug the trash out one day and blah blah. I said, it is trash... A dumpster.. Why would you want to fight about a dumpster... Please, WW... It is not an arguing point okay. I am not going to argue with you today... She gets mad as _ell and walks off.
Comes back minutes later and starts in about me moving the entire front room around and how if I would have let her get rid of that second couch blah blah.. I said, well if you want to help me figure where to put things I would love your help. She says, nope.. You are creative, you figure it out. Maybe you will like it better anyway and you guys can just keep it that way...
She then is ready to leave... She starts asking daughter when she will be done with me so they can leave. WW says, and I suppose NOW you will buy me gifts for Christmas. I laughed and said, WW.. Are you going to say I never bought you Christmas gifts... Oh WW... That is a good one.
(Thinking to myself... It was 14 years ago one week before Christmas that I asked her to marry me and gave her a huge 19 diamond ring that she treasured like no other object until removing it this past July...) Christmas was always at time of year that I would shower my wife with gifts. Cloths, make up, perfume, jewelry, cds, you name it...

Daughters Christmas spirit was now all but ruined.. She says, fine I am done now. She ran upstairs and went to her room.
WW says, this Christmas crap was all your dumb idea anyway, telling her you guys can decorate the house today.. I said, she asked me last night. She said, she wanted to arange the furniture so me and you can watch her open gifts beside the tree in the front window like old times in our old house. She just got up and walk away.
I went and comforted daughter and asked her to take a break with me and we set in the Kitchen and had a snack. WW left the house.
She called from the mall several times to talk to daughter. Trying to make her feel better and offering her things they could do tonight. I told daugher she could pick. Just then her friend called asking if they could go to the mall. I said, okay maybe she could get her mother to go with them as long as she did not leave them. I told daughter if your mom leaves you, you call me on your new cell immediately.
WW called back and agreed to the idea. Also asked daughter what kind of new personlized plate she would like for the front of her car. I told daughter.. I will bet you a pop it is black and probably with a chrome design in the middle....daughter says, why.. I said, just bet me.
WW shows up with a black chrome plate with a pink chrome mustang pony on it.
How did I know? Well OM's truck has a black personalized plate on the front of it with a chrome design.

WW aske me for the proper tool to change it with. I said, a husband. She said, what tool do I need to change it with?
I said, I just told you. I will change it for you after we eat.
I went and got a late lunch for us. WW was angry that I got her food as well. At first she ignored it until daughter came down and started eating. WW finally ate her food to.
While they were finishing eating, I went out and changed the plates.
Yes, it hurt me. The old plate was one that I made her myself. It had my racing car number on it and our last name. I remember how proud of it she was when I first put it on, telling everyone the story behind it.
When I took it off I just left it in the street. Kind of felt like what she is doing with me. Just take me off and leave me for trash and replace me with OM.

When I came back in she asked me again for the tool. I said, nope.. It is done.. I changed it out, you are all set.
She was confused and did not have anything to say.
I said, the black looks nice. She said, are you being sarcastic? I said, should I be?

I went back to work on the house. She came over and said, thank you for lunch. Also, I am sorry for what my mother said to you. I am now confused. Her mother has been very good to me.. I said, well no big deal. Getting lunch was the least I could do. I have know your mom for many many years. She just loves and I am not mad at her.

WW stood there for a minute and watched me work. Then her and daughter left. I seen her go and look at the tag then pick up the old one and put it in her car..

That's the update:

I don't gleen much good out of today. I think the Christmas stuff really overloaded her mind.
We are the kind of people that kept every home made keep sake that our daughter ever made us as she was growing up. There are very many little decorations that are all sentimental to the both of us.

I think I will not even speak of the conversation with OM unless WW brings it up. I agree with Mort- I should be creative in my responses.. Not lie but, maybe be not so precise in my presentation to create some thought on her behalf.
POINT WELL TAKEN Mr.W. PH, and Mort-

KM4- Yes, my man this affair has consummed me. I have just stopped cold turkey from an addiction (racing) that ate up the last three years of my life....
Yes, I am struggling to figure out what I am going to do with myself. Basically re-invent who I am and where I am going in life. Through in my wife of half my life is no with another man. Dude, I am obsessed with trying to figure out where I am going and how to get there with woman I love.
I don't have that direction or woman I love to help me. I am lost. Hence my MB handle.. "dazednconfused"

I know I need a life. How do you make one overnight?

What are some of your opinions about the book "Stop your divoce" by Homer McDonald?

Dear Dazed,

When my husband changed his behavior around me and our children, I, too, did not believe he was legit. I even had a counselor and others who warned me he was most likely pretending in order to win me back. It's been well over a year that he's been different - prioritizing US instead of him and not keeping us tiptoeing around him all the time - but he's changed, that I'm sure. Even after a year's time and one slip-up on his part, I was ready to walk away from him and the marriage. Now, after another seven months, I'm "falling in love" with him - but it still scares me sometimes.

I'm not a MB expert (or even much of a novice), but I can attest to the fact that love can be reborn - or perhaps more accurately in our case - born for the first time. Hang in there. I wish you and your wife the same.

MAzingrace

Mazing- Thank you for your comments.
A statement my wife has made several times. "I forgive you but I can't forget"....
I think that it will take a very long time to prove to her that I am legit...
I know she thinks it will be easier to start over even with a less than person.. A man with no history to haunt her mind.
We all know that is not going to work out for her. I feel it will only lead to more pain in for her. We all know that this OM is only going to hurt her in different ways than I did.
In the fog and scared to trust me has her do lost. I believe she thinks when she is gone from our home and not around me that her internal struggles will all go away. I believe she will then see the truth. It may just have to happen and she may have to live it with OM.
Obviously I am tring to show her love and prove my changes are for real with out her having to be scraped up from rock bottom first. She may not let me save her with total love.
The question that I have for all WW's is what cleared the fog for you to give your BS another chance?
Especially a WW that fits the walk off wife type or has suffered from neglect like my wife.
I know many have said, only Plan B and the realization that there BS and former life was gone forever.
At times I feel like saving my marriage with this woman is like raising the titanic. However, it is the moments when my wife returns into her body that keeps me going.
I am not perfect nor done a perfect Plan A. I have done many things right but, the hardest thing for me to overcome is my LBing with anger and or reaction.
No I am not violent at all.. It is my choice of words and deliverly that is full of LB's when I am angry with her. She hates that in me. She is trying so hard to get me to show that face she hates on me just to justify her actions to move closer to OM.

I actually told her that today. Just tonight she came home and jumped all over me for the placement of a picture I hung. I spent all day completely moving our house around and decorating for Christmas. She just goes off about me haning a picture to high and how could i be so stupid and how I made fresh holes in the wall and blah blah blah.
I said very calmly. WW, sorry you do not approve of how I hung the picture. I did ask you to help me and you declined. So, I am not going to argue with you about dumpsters, pop cans, or picture hung 2" too high. I know you want to see me mad. You want for me to make it easy for you to be mad at me. It is not going to work any more.
All I am doing is loving you unconditional... You have been coming home and beating me up to see if I will help prove to yourself I am not changing. I want to be nice to you and friendly. You are just not wanting to let me so you are trying to NOT get along. She said, yeah I suppose your right...End of conversation...
I set and watched tv and she fell asleep in the chair.
Later I rubbed her hair. She did not push me away. I asked her to sleep some where other than the couch. She would not. On the couch now. No pillow and just a throw for a blanket. I have stopped taking her a soft bed pillow and blanket trying to get her off that couch. She does not have to sleep with me. Just in a bed. We have three of them...

I have not had time to speak to daugher in private to find out if WW left daughter alone tonight. They were home by 9:30PM.

The big question is what will it take to get her out of the fog, how long, and will she come back once the fog has lifted.
Obviously I think the fog will lift and she will come back. I have to keep telling myself this.
ENDING THE AFFAIR is the key. That is the fog machine.
I think this would allow her to see me and really think about an us again. Right now OM is really keeping the fog thick.
The two main things I believe I have to prepare for is
1) Her trying to fog over daughter and undermine me as a good parent.
2) Her leaving the house again.
3) Her turning the divorce lawyer on again.

She is working on 1). I have been really tested this week that if for sure. I need to speak to daughter alone and try to explain to her what her mom is doing and try to blow some of the fog off her now.
2) I think it is only time before she leaves again. I need to be ready for this mentally and be ready to adjust my plan as well.
3) I fear she is taking baby steps each day closer to getting up the nerve to go back in there and do it. Just last week end she told her mom she can't do it. Not just because of daughter but, she loves me and feels inside that leaving me is wrong. If I LB big enough AGAIN, I may just give her that push. I feel like a man hanging from the edge with her standing on both my hands.
I hope I can buy enough time to show her I am for real. At least get enough work in to bring her back with either plan A or B.
Thanks agian every one.

I would still love to hear suggestions from all WW's about how to improve my approach and plan...

Post deleted by MAzingrace

Wow Dazed....I think you are doing a great job.

It's so difficult to have unconditional love, when the one you love is so difficult.

MAzingrace....I love your testimony/story, and hope it becomes Dazed story too!

Lady