You do NOT want her thinking that you will be there no matter what. You do not want to be her safety net.

Let her make her decisions without the net.

Let her know you WILL move on. And you WILL be happy however things turn out between you.

You do NOT want to be like the sappy ex-SIL's ex-H who she thinks she can go back to whenever she snaps her fingers. How disrespectful!

Confidence is attractive. Being a doormat is not.

Now do not go and give her the impression that you're having an affair too. No No No. But let her know that you are optimistic happy and confident about your future -- with or without her. She is not the source of your happiness, you feel good about yourself no matter what! And you should -- you're a good person!

Dazed -- enlist your daughter to the extent appropriate for her age.

This should be bolded, put in 48 font and littered with blinking lights !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lem

Absolutely Lemonman!! A woman cannot love a man that she does not respect!

In His arms.

Doesn't a Plan B letter basically say "if and when you are ready to work on the M I will be here waiting".

What is the diffierence?

No, it says if you value our marriage and relationship again, then I will be available to talk about this.

A much different message!

In His arms.

Well, I have to admit that I never had to do a plan B letter. But, I also personally think that one of the risks that many people don't acknowledge about plan B is that it IS possible for the BS to decide not to reconcile with the WW after plan B as well. Because in plan B you both learn how to survive on your own (or not), and you re-learn your own self worth as well.

I know that myself PERSONALLY, I'd have limits on what I would endure before I would not accept my wife back. The one thing that most plan B letters do not acknowledge is that there is a limit for most people where they will no longer seek to work things out with their WS. There really is no garauntee that YOU would still be interested in reconciling with HER after plan B.

And the reality is that the WS sometimes needs to know this. My wife wanted to use me as her 'safety net'. She point blank ASKED me "But why can't I just go and see if what OM and I have is real in person, and just come back to you if it's not?!?!" I told her point blank that I would not take her back if she left me like that...if she decided to go 'test drive' OM, then she would NOT have the option of returning home afterwards.

It was the very real threat of losing me forever that helped my wife start to recognize the repercussions of her choices.

IMHO, those repercussions are what your wife no longer needs to be sheltered from. She needs to start feeling the repercussions of chosing to go spend time with OM, of LB'ing you, etc... She needs to recognize that there ARE limits to what you will tolerate, and what the risks she faces in pushing those limits.

Just my thoughts.

Mortar:

We're all on the same team bro, battling this....I think it is precisely people like YOU who can have the greatest impact on instructing people who dangle close to this "line" and go over it....trying to be "accomodating" and "nice" and "happy go lucky".....it is a tough thing...

Nice work you do by the way.


Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Lemonman!!

It is a very thin line. The difference between meeting needs and doormat. Very thin. And one second, you think you are doing the right thing, and the next...you have the WS walking all over you.

That is why it is important to have MC, and important to have these boards. To get a sanity check on what you are doing.

So, you also keep up the good work because all of us (even me from time to time) need a 2x4. And some on here are better than others at wielding a nice piece of virtual oak!

In His arms.

Dazed, I know some may disagree with me on this, if you keep mentioning this 90 day contract thing as an option this may very well be your downfall in saving this marriage. Not everyone's feelings come back in that short of time. On average yes it is 2-3 months of solid no contact and a good plan a at the same time for the feelings in a ws to comeback for the bs. But those feelings don't mean "in love feelings", what if your wife has an unrealistic view of a timetable that her feelings for you should return completely in those 90 days. 90 days role by but still not as she was hoping for in terms of how she feels for you, chances are she would get discouraged at the amount of progress being made. Don't make time like deadlines.

Also for the love of god it's sit not set! I've noticed through out your posts that you keep making these little tiny spelling mistakes and it drives me up the wall! Lol man there's my rant!

But man lets hope for the best now after that turn around from your wife!

Post deleted by MAzingrace

Lexxxy-Mort-Lem-Owl:
You guys are so right about the confidence aspect. This I do need to improve on. At times I have been good others not so good.
This is just onther step I am trying to take and will take. As you all know it comes in time. Especially when my life has just been turned inside out and upside down all at the same time.

I agree that showing change and confidence goes along with keeping my life and the family moving.

WW was very upset about me moving the house around and decorating for Christmas. Her comment was, "What is there to be happy about." "How could you think about Christmas?" "I would not have done anything for Christmas".
My thoughts are she 1) Does not want to feel worse about not being part of the family during what is suppose to be family time. 2) Not being part of the family as we do things like decorate the house with out her. She always took pride in the way our home looked. She always was the one in charge of where everything went and how the house was kept. I think me and daughter moving the house around and decorating stepped on her feelings even though she turned me down to when I asked her to take part.

INLISTING DAUGHTER:
I will need to be very careful here. She already knows mom has a boyfriend. She has meet the guy and his mom. She was really angry with WW for a long time. She is now wanting to make peace with WW. WW is really trying hard to win her back. I do say win... Of course WW wants her daughter to love her but I feel also wants her to accept mommy's choice to be with OM. (This is my opinion)
This is where I need to figure out how to communicate with daughter about family values and that married people don't have boy friends and girl friends and it is not acceptable to do what her mom has done.
Daughter has asked me to save the family. Asked if I could fix everything.
She knows the her mom filed divorce papers. She knows her mom wants out of the house.
Daughter has told people that her mom has her head up her butt. Dad has passed the test. He is home now and doing everything he can to make mom happy and she treats him terrible. It is my mom that is ruining our family. Also, told Ex-SIL, that she hates her mom for doing this to her dad and her.
I need some ideas how to get daughter to talk to an IC. My first approach was to tell her that she had an appointment to talk to a lady about anything that she wants to talk about. That did not work.
My other thought was to just tell her she has a doctors appointment and take her in the door. I really did not want to decieve her but, dragging her through the door by her arms as she is kicking and screaming can't be any better.

MAzingrace- I am not a 90 day plan fan myself. I thought that 90 days would be enough time to get her to de-tox from OM and get through withdrawls. At this point she will NOT agree to stop seeing him. Just look at my post. She can't make it a day with out seeing him. She is a receptionist so you know that he is calling her during the day as well.
Addiction or Love what ever you want to call it. She is so consummed by it.
She told me something last night. I asked how her day went. She said, really bad like normal. I said, that really sucks. What do you mean like normal. She said, well.. I don't talk to anyone at work all day long. I am always sad and depressed now. I am never happy or have any fun any more.
I said, wow. You used to be bubbly, chearful, funny and happy. You used to smile all the time.
She said, and how would you know. I said, come of WW. I have known you for 15 plus years. You know I am right. She was quiet.....

Last night was very peaceful. No harsh words or attempts on her part to fight.
While watching king of queens I asked WW about what she thought about going out to a bar or friends house to have fun with out your spouse of other half. She said, why? I said, just wondering what you thought. Seeing this show just made me think. You know some people think that a marriage or relationship is "not normal" when the other half goes out solo and has fun at places like a club or party.
She says, well if there is trust then I don't see what the problem would be.. What are you getting at. I said, no point to make. Just wandered if we thought the same. Me, I think there is nothing wrong with trusting your other half to go out with the girls and have fun. WW says, well I would prefer to go out together but if the other person don't want to or can't then if there is trust I guess its okay.

(I just wanted to plant the seed of freedom that I gave her and want to give my wife. OM will never give her this freedom. Remember his comment to me, "It is not normal for your wife to go out to clubs and parties and have fun with out you.")
Of course I would never agree to my wife going out to find a man for the night. But, what is wrong with a girls night out?

What woman would like to be told that you can not go out of my sight and have fun with out me... No girls night out, no clubs, or parties of any sort??????

This morning WW did not argue or try to fight... WOW..
Two days in a row...
I woke her up. She was friendly. I was nice to her.
When she came down stairs to the laundry room I greeted her nicely. She said, out of the blue. I wish I was dead.
I said, Oh come on. She said, yeah I do. I said, that is a horrible thing to say and to really feel that must hurt.
She kind of went on looking for cloths, as I went on ironing.
After a lengthy pause, she said have you ever felt that bad.
I said, well because of all this stuff. I have felt really bad at times. However, it is the commitment I have to our family that keeps me going.
She nelt down beside a laundry basket and put her head down.
I stopped what I was doing and went and nelt down and gave her a hug. Told her that I am here for her. She laid her head against mine. I kept it pretty short, told her that I had to go get our daughter off to school and went on with my business.

The sense of loss is increasing! This is good!


Dazed, from what you have written, it sounds like you have a daughter with a good head on her shoulders. Just sit down and talk to her. Tell her it will help her, and you, in the middle of this crisis. Keep reminding her how proud you are of how she is handling this and for her to pray and keep faith.


Which is why you dont give out time limits. You may think you are only going to give it 90 days. But she should never be told there is a time limit. All she has to do then is survivie the 90 days, tell OM to hold in place for those 90 days...and then run to him when it is over and say "I tried." Dont do that Dazed.


Dazed, not to pat myself on the back...but just to show you how typical she is...read what I wrote you a few days ago:

You want her lonely. You want her to go thru this pain. It is the ONLY chance she has of getting back.


That is how you do it, Dazed! Good Plan A interaction. You put in seeds of good stuff with you, and bad stuff with OM. And she didnt even know it. A+.


Sometimes it is best to say nothing! Overall, a great job Dazed.

Stay commited, stay on message.

In His arms.

Mort-
Thank you for your comments. I agree with you and Lexxxy about letting her see into a life with out me and with OM. At the same time keep improving my life and bond with daughter, being confident and love her plan A style as long as I can.

I do see what you mean when I appear to her as really changing and continuing life without her. Accomplishing this Plan A style without coming off as needy does seem to make the biggest impression on her.
_______________________
PUSH BACK FROM OM
I still expect OM to be pushing to get her out of the house. You know he has to be increasing his pull on her to get her away from me. I bet he wants her out by Christmas.

Of course he is pressuring her.
She told me again Sunday night she feels like she is being pulled in two directions.

Would I be making a mistake by saying more than if you go it just gets that much harder for you to return. I did tell her that Sunday night.
I know some of you say let her leave and crash. However, Harley tells me to keep in the house any way I can. It gets much much harder when there out.

Some ideas please.....

______________________

WW and IC..
WW had an appointment last Monday. She has told me very very little about it.
I really think she needs an IC.

I thought I might bring it up and if she does not want to talk about it then i would let it go..
______________________________________

Gotta go..
Thanks to all you that help me and god bless.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow Dazed.... it just goes to show, love covers a multitude of sin! You are a man of love in action!

Your wife would be a fool to throw you away, and I don't think she will. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lady

Dazed -- very important here -- take seriously her suicidal comments. She IS feeling like she wants to die. It would solve her problems.

This is going to work for you two ways.

ONE: You are going to be the supportive husband who genuinely cares about her and wants her to heal. Encourage counseling. Encourage anti-depressants. Take her seriously, talk to her about it -- don't brush it off.

TWO: Document all of her comments. She is unstable. In regards to custody -- daughter will go to you entirely. No judge is going to award custody to a suicidal parent. Keep this in your back pocket for now.

more later...

She told me one other time she wanted to crash her car into a tree or pole at high speed. She said, she drove around trying get up enough guts to do and could not do it.
She has also taken a bottle of head ache pills. That was done at OM's apartment one night about 6 weeks ago. Don't know what triggered that.
I called the hospital on that time. Her mom called the police about a week before when she told her on the phone.
I guess she has told me that on email several times too.
______________________________
Tonight she is very withdrawn. Trying to ignore me. I have been in a chearful mood all night. I think it is bothering her. I cooked dinner and offered her some food. Just said, no I am fine. Later she went into the kitchen and fixed herself a plate. She has not intiated any conversation tonight. What little i have talked to her she has tried to not answer.
I asked her joking that if she ignored if she thaught I would just go away. She said, well it worked for you. I brushed it off.
_____________________________
I need some help to prepare for the possiblity of her making her next escape.
I feel it is coming. Possible soon. She gets paid tomorrow and will have a few bucks again.

How do I play it and what should be my approach?
Hey, I am expecting the best but preparing for the worst...

If she tells me she is going and starts packing: Should warn her of leaving and what will happen?
Be cool and calm as possible and ask her to not leave. Get daughter out of house which would also remove myself until she is gone?
Some ideas please?

MM (et al)-

There is a good reason for actually providing a timeframe for the WS. Most WS's will bluntly refuse an open timeframe for recovery...and Dazed's WW has repeatedly said "I can't do this forever". She's not going to be willing to give ANY effort for an indefinite period.

But...if you give a WS a timeline, then you often CAN get them to agree to the NC trial. The TRICK to it is to make the timeline long enough to give withdrawl a true chance to finish. You have to try to tailor that length of time so that it stands a decent chance of allowing the WS to get through withdrawl and to begin to receive love credits from the BS again, but at the same time short enough that it gives them a false sense of security in that they're not going to be expected to make an effort in something that they don't believe will work for an indefinite length of time. They have to think that there is some kind of light at the end of the tunnel...and they truly don't think that light is their BS...at least not at the point where you're trying to get them to agree to NC and working on the marriage.

90 days is often a good start in baselining this time...and if the A was very short lived, it's possible to go in less than this time...case in point, my wife reached a point where she was willing to reconcile in about 30 days post d-day. BUT...it was an online EA with no chance to consumate the A physically. So I just had to deal with her emotional addiction...not a physical one.

Dazed's situation is indeed different. BUT...without providing his wife SOME kind of timeline, the odds of gathering agreemant to work on this are very very low.

And another 'work around' to the 90 days timeline...be vague about what happens at the end of the 90 days. Perhaps phrase it as..."Well, let's agree to 90 days NC, and then we'll look at where things are standing then."

The hope is that the WS will go through withdrawl and begin to polarize back towards the BS...and/or that the OP gives up on the WS and moves on. Hopefully a combination of both.

Dazed-

Again, my advice is not MB standard. If she packs up and begins to leave, get your DD out of the house, and clearly spell out for your wife the consequences of leaving. And make sure that YOU are willing to uphold those consequences as well.

I told my wife that if she got on that plane, there was NO coming back. Our marriage, our family, our friendship was OVER. I would NEVER spend any time with her in any capacity again. I would NEVER forgive her for what she'd done to our family, to me, to us. I would NOT be there for her if things failed with OM...if it didn't work, she'd be without ANYTHING or ANYONE. I reminded her that I loved her with all of my heart, and that I wanted her to stay and work things out with me more than anything else...but if she made her choice to go, that choice was final.

And I meant it. And she knew it. And she realized that she still loved me enough that she didn't want to lose me forever. And she didn't want to put our kids through all of that either...and she was teetering on the brink, trying to decide what to do...when OM calls and pushes her over the brink because HE couldn't take her indecision anymore.

You've done the best plan A you can. You've shown her how much you care, and what you hope for out of all of this. She's seen it, even if she doesn't want to admit it. So make it clear to her that she'll lose all of that forever when/if she leaves. Spell out for her too what she's going to do to DD...and how DD will feel about her mom doing this.

Again, not MB standard advice. Just letting you know what worked in my case. Good luck my friend.

Owl,

I get what you are saying...but I am not sure I agree.

Over the years on here, I have seen timelines mostly blow up. First, most WSs never follow the timelines (they just pretend and go secret again with the affair...that way they can convince their BS that they tried and that they should now help them get the divorce). Others, follow the timelines, but have set up things with the OP so that they will wait the 90 days, with promises that the WS will come to them for good once that time period is over.

I see timeperiods as a way that the WS can use to manipulate the BS...not the other way around.

The only way to reach recovery is withdrawal. The only way to get withdrawal is for the affair to end. If it is on hold, it has not ended. The WS will still hold out hope for the affair, for that relationship. it will be their get-out-of-jail-free card in their back pocket. Why work hard at the marriage, when you know that you can wait out this 90 day deal and the OP will be there? So, when things get tough (as they will) during that period, all the WS has to do is pull back some. The BS will let them because they are afraid of the WS giving up and going back to the OP.

I see Plan A and Plan B differently. While there are negotiations going on in Plan A for the end of the affair, they are not negotiations such as this. Those negotiations are SURRENDER negotiations. The WS must surrender, must give up OP, must commit to the marriage and their vows.

If they are allowed to think there are trial periods, then in their minds, the BS believes that there is a point the marriage must end. Which means that they really havent done anything wrong, they just decided that the marriage ended earlier than the BS wanted it to. This is their sick rationality.

I see the BS as the only person probably in the OPs life that is giving them the truth. We have to be consistent. When we say the affair must end, it must end. When we say there must be NC, then there must be NC. But if we say "let's have a 90 day trial," then we are saying that we didnt mean it when we told them that we believe that marriage is forever. That we didnt really mean it when we said that we knew that we could make a better marriage. now, we want a trial period to see.

This is why I disagree. Trial periods may work in certain specific cases. But most of these things require radical honesty, stiff boundaries...and surrender on behalf of the WS.

In His arms.

I tend to agree with the ghist of what you're saying, MM. Remember that there are instances where this 'trial period' works too tho. Sysyphus was one such case here on MB. His MC recommended the 90 day thing...and inside 40 days, his wife truly committed to recovery.

I would only recommend this in the cases where it's clear that the WS will NOT agree to an indefinite timeframe. Additionally, it needs to be VERY clear that the timer resets itself with ANY contact with OP...any at all. And during this time, the WS MUST submit to 'complete openness' so that the BS can verify that contact is not resumed.

This IS an effective technique in situations where there are no other options to get the WS to agree to NC. In cases where the WS refuses to surrender any other way...put in those terms, it's a 'cease-fire' long enough to demonstrate other ways of resolving the problem short of conflict...until a new treaty is negotiated.

Again...the 'trick' to this is to create the chance for withdrawl to set in...in cases where there seems to be no other way to get the WS to agree with NC.

Okay---You guys got me again. I was posting while you were. So my stuff below is not a response to your post..
MORT-OWL- I will go back and read.

Update:
Posting on top of one my previous post is not what I like to do, but I am getting the feel that she is reading herself to make another big change.

This morning was for the most part uneventful.
She came to me in the hall way and asked how much longer does this have to go on. I can't keep this up. I am tired of sleeping on the couch. I don't even have an alarm clock. You took that.. I said, it is right next to the bed where it has always been. She said, my back is killing me and this is not working.
I said, do you want me to say I am ready to give up on you and us? I still believe in you and our family. She walked away.
About twenty minutes later she asked me if I still pray every night. I said, yes. She said, why? It does not work. I said, Oh.. She said, I pray every night to god that i will not wake up from my sleep. That would solve all the problems.

This is why I see her ready to make another big move soon.
I think she is looking for the easiest way out. The path of least resistance if you will.
I think she is withdrawing from me thinking that is the easiest thing to do. She is full aware of the custody issue. She does not want to loose that. However, I think she believes that I am a safety net. If things with OM don't work, oh well. BS still loves me...

She asked me the other night. Your friend that re-married his ex-wife. Why did her take her back? How long was she gone for? Why did it not work out for her?
Is that not a safety net check or what?

How do you reply to that on the spot. I said, well obviously they still loved each other and was willing to work out all there problems. I don't know how long she was gone for. Things did not work out because she left her family behind. She missed her kids, her husband, her home, and discovered that her problems did not all go away. She discovered grass with OM was not so green. He was just not her Husband and that strange feeling never went away.

She replied, and you don't know how long she was gone? I said, no I either don't remember or never really asked.

I am worried about her safety. I don't trust her alone with daughter any more. I DO NOT think she would ever harm her. I just don't want her explaining and trying to get daughter to go along with mom leaving and buying into shared time stuff.

Got to run... Be back later..