So, dont give it to her. You see, she has been trying the path of least resistance...or so she thought. That was what the affair was about. She thought it easier to just run and start over than to work on things. It dont work that way!!

So, if she runs...she will find things get harder! She knows this deep down, as every time she tries, there is just more pain. That is why she is asking you to do it, you to give up. You see, she can go down that path to the Om when she knows that it is her only option. When she knows she also can choose the marriage, then she cant make a decision that doesnt cause her pain. Of course, not making a decision is causing her pain also!

They dont come out of the fog without pain. So let her have the pain. Make her make the hard decisions.

When she wants to know about that other couple, just say it doesnt matter how long. That there are no guarantees you and her could survive anythign like that. That it would be much harder than just working on it now.

Dont help her find her way out. Make it difficult and painful.

In His arms.

Mort- You are so right...
I think I have not been consistant enough in my effort to stress "ending the affair". Obviously we have done a lot of talking and I have worked very hard on Plan A.

Setting boundries and making her realize at the center of all her pain and stress in her life is OM.....Help her see that the affair is THE source of all her pain.
This is something I need to include and be upfront. I have done this before but usually wrapped in a big love busting conversation.

I see that NOW maybe a great time to attack the affair from this angle. "Help her see that OM and this affair is what is causing all this pain".

What's your take Mort?

The A was always the enemy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Problem is WW is not ready to give it up yet.

Unfortunately, the hard part is waiting for the OM to LB sufficiently to break it up.

I'm worried that she is starting to think of you as her "safety net". She knows you'll always be there to take her back. The problem with this thought is that it puts in second place for good. You can not allow that to happen.

Marriage is a partnership of equals, She can not have the mindset of "Well, I didn't get my soulmate, but at least he took me back." That mindset will lay a foundation for future failure not future success.



I'll go back to a suggestion I had a while back. Get DD a trac / cell phone to use when she is out with OM. She doesn't need to have it all the time, just when she is out & about.

I think that it is very important that she has a way to contact you directly. If you give her your cell you will need to stay around the land line if she calls.

I would not be surprised to hear that WW trys to bring DD into contact with OM to try out their "new" family over the holidays. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget that all the new cell phones have GPS built into them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Stay strong.

WW has just got her a cell phone. I checked the call log Sunday night and stupid WW has already been using it to call OM's cell and his parents house.

Cellular one does NOT have tracking other than 911. I have researched this option to no end. Nextel is the only provider that has the live GPS tracking plan. In my area Nextel is almost useless. Cell One is the only real option for cell phones here.

I have found a nice little GPS tracker for company vehicles that I want to order. Two recievers for 300.00. The are about the size of a man's wallet. I want to put one in WW's car and under OM's truck. I have talked myself down from doing this though. Knowing too much might be hard for me to deal with. I already thing my hands would fit rather nicely around his neck..lol For real...This could help me find WW and daughter if needed. Also, document each time she is with OM. I already know that is every day.. Just now could prove it with out a doudt.

Yeah, I know I have been hoping that OM IS Love Busting big time. I just don't know. A fear of mine is that he has check out the MB website. The one time I got WW to speak to Steve Harley, he gave her the website address and asked her to complete the emotional needs survey. She told me she went to the site and looked around.
At this time I did not even think of her telling OM everything.
When OM started pulling the reverse plan B stuff in order to get her to divorce me, I really have to wonder if he has been here...

YES, I am worried she is thinking of me as the saftey net.... To change that I think I need to make sure she knows that I am not going to wait for her forever.
This is the boundries part that I am asking for help with...

PH-LEXXXY-MORT-MAzingrace-Wonderings-Peach-Walking-
Setting the boundries while doing Plan A...Help..
I know you guys are probably thinking, it's simple...Is it just that simple.
I think I should avoid pointing blame at her, but focus on the affair and her choice to keep it going and continue to damage our family.
Do I tell her something like this.
1) This affair is what is causing all the pain in your life and our family. The pain will not stop until the affair ends.
2) I love you with all my heart but, your choice to continue seeing OM will eventually destroy all my desire to be with you. I can not guarantee how long the door to my heart will stay open for you.

I need some help...

Also with timing on how to insert these boundries. Do I wait for her to open up the "us" talk. Any thing I say to OM's girl friends don't seem to have much impact. It's when I get to talk to my wife, it when I see thinks register with her.

When the time seems right, I want to spring the statment on her that OM made to me. When I asked hime about chasing after a married mother and breaking up her family. He agreed that what he did and is doing "Is Not RIGHT, but won't appologize for it".

I know I don't want to Love Bust while using this stuff. That's why I keep asking for help here...

Dazed

I have been out of town and also dealing with my former Ws/xh.

As the others feel here, I am believing that plan B is around the corner. If not already here.

I think this woman needs a dose of reality. and yes, you being seen as the safety net does NOT heal a marriage. it makes it loose even more ground. it would not feel nice to be de=valued or viewed as a consolation prize for a wacked out ws.

get the gps. you only need one. and you can have PI follow ww...and if dd is with her that's good too.

she will try to butter up dd to om. it is inevitable! is is sad but ironically hilarious...my xh tried to get my son to "love" his ow/stepmom. My son is always nice and polite...he always wondered when his dad would see who was this woman really? well today his dad found out! she was yelling and screaming at my xh at six am this morning while my precious ds was trying to sleep over at his home. she even called my ds a horrible vicious name...which in turn made my xh do a 180 and turn on his ow/wife.

the op view kids as a "tool" with which to use as glue to solidify their affair...like the ow/w using her prior child (five now) to call my then H "daddy" and such.

Keep dd away from OM at all legal costs.

I believe you Ww is not all that torn btw.

she is beginning to see the cracks in the perfect image of om by now. that is for sure.

but she is not torn b/c she has not had opportunity (note I use word opportunity!) to fall yet.

she thinks she can go and divorce you...live with om and see if it works out..and if it does not, she will try to reconcile with you. wow what an honor or what????

when she does attempt to leave again as I believe she will do, I believe a darkest plan B is needed...that is what will be her fall.

do document her suicide comments too. that is good for custody should she not return from fog.

if you have opp to go to plan B, I predict it will end the affair swiftly and all along I said she'd be back by new year...that was my original prediction. but she must lose the "wayward" part first..tht comes after her ego has been brought down to earth. she has loved being a cakeater for far too long now. she needs to see that OM is indeed along with the Affair, the TRUE source of her unhappiness.

but she cannot see this until it is smack dab staring her dead in the face.

I cannot say this anymore plainly than this.

Dazed, go with number one. Number two is what you say on your Plan B letter as you go into Plan B.

I am going to take a slightly different view than others right now. I am going to say that right now, it is great that she is beginning to think of you as her safety net. Now why do I think that?

Think about it for a second. What does a WS who has been exposed want more than anything else? Someone...anyone...Buehler?

They want the pain to stop! They will do just about anything to make the pain stop. Normally good mothers will up and leave their children to be with the OM in hopes that the pain will stop. WHs will give up everything and pay anything in order to get out and get away from the pain of their affair being exposed.

Dazed, it is clear that your wife is in pain...no matter where she goes. This is a good thing. It is also clear that is beginning to think of you as a safety net. That tells me Plan A is working! I mean, what is a safety net? It is a safe place to land. If she wasnt beginning to trust you, she wouldnt feel you were very safe, huh?

So, what is going to happen when things get worse for her? When OM continues his manipulation and abuse? Of course, she is going to run to her safety net! Which is going to fuel more anger and attempts at control out of the OM. Which is going to cause more pain for your wife. Which is going to cause her to do what? {Sing with me here, chorus} She is going to run to her safety net!

While I am the Plan B Czar, I do reconize that in order for me to have a great Plan B...I need my spouse to get into this viscious cycle. I need her to rely on me more and more. I need for the OM to continue being more unreliable.

Can you see where this is headed? Two outcomes are on the horizon in this scenario. The first one is the pain gets so great, that she finds the strength to leave the Om and come home. But, barring that, with a WS that just cant find the strength to do the right thing...then Plan B is sprung on her.

All of a sudden, in an instant, the WS has no safety net. None. She is hundreds of feet i nthe air, and no one to catch her.

This is exactly why right after the Plan B letter, WSs first try to manipulate the BS back into being the safety net. But as soon as they see that cant do that, they become VERY< VERY angry. They are angry because they are scared and in GREAT pain. How dare you not be their safety net?!?!

In that environment, the WS has to accept the ****** they are in...or come runnign back to their safety net under the terms that the BS set out. Remember what I said...a WS will do ANYTHING to stop the pain! And while it is painful to leave the OM...they now realize the pain is so much more with leaving their spouse.

Be the safety net...right up until you pull it out from under her with Plan B. Notice I am NOT saying be a doormat. A doormat and a safety net are two very different things!

In His arms.

HI Dazed,

MM... I totally agree with you ...
The great motivational speaker Tony Robbins says:

People are motivated by two things....
The promise of pleasure... or..... the fear of pain...

For instance.... if a person is AFRAID of the PAIN of a speeding ticket...they are less likely to go over the speed limit...

While another person may gain pleasure from speeding or the feeling they are getting somewhere FASTER by speeding.. that person will go over the speed limit...

So... I think how this applies to the WS is... at FIRST.. they attach PAIN to the BS (and the Marriage) and PlEASURE to the OP (and the Affair)....

Then... once the affair hits the "Light of day" there is a tremendous amount of PAIN attached to the affair...

So... the WS is in PAIN because the thing that once provided PLEASURE, is now causing PAIN...
Since the BS and the Marriage still represent PAIN and the affair is obviously PAINFUL to EVERYONE....OP BS....CHILDREN....FAMILY....FRIENDS......

The WS lives in a CONSTANT state of PAIN and confusion....

Until a good long Plan "A" builds trust and a PLEASURABLE feeling towards the BS.. and the WS sees HOPE for the Marriage again....they wander around LOST and in incredible pain... MAYBE... even MORE pain than the BS....!!

I've always said IF I had to make a choice between being a BS or a WS I would ALWAYS pick being a BS as incredibly painful as it is, because I wouldn't want the GUILT that comes with being the WS along with all the PAIN that they go through as well!!

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

This was my experience, Dazed. Even today - 1 1/2 years later, I look to my husband as that net when the residual effects of the past catch up with me.

MAzingrace

Mortarman & PH you are right on with this.

WW is under tremendous amounts of pain. My fear of her being a flight risk is because I see her really really hurting more so than ever.

I feel she is near a melt down point. She is just miserable right now.

HOW MUCH ROOM DO I GIVE HER:
Just as I thought she is mentally starting to melt down. I felt this coming. That is why I feared that she would again let OM do her thinking again and she would try to leave the house.

She is really unstable right now. Worst I have ever seen. She is completely miserable. Because of this morning's events, I called her about an hour ago at work to let her know I am here for her.
When she picked up the phone she was crying... Before i even spoke I could hear her voice cracking. I told her i new her day got off to a real $hitty start and wanted her to know that I am here for you if you need me. There was a pause, I can hear her sniffling and her quitely weeping. She says, in almost a whisper.. "I NEED YOU"... Then i could her some one approach her with a question. She say's I have to go....

WHAT DO I DO...
Should I try to contact her again? Or just go about my day?
______________________________________

This morning:

I discovered she had another meeting with her IC last night. She was AWOL from 6PM till 8:45PM.
I was unhappy about that but did not question or love bust. Good thing.

She was hostile and angry this morning. Very high stress..
None of us got up on time. Daughter wanted to stay home because of nature calling. So tramatic for a 12 year old girl...Of course dad can only do so much in that catogory.
I asked WW to please help her. WW was not much help.
Nothing bad, just not great mom to daughter stuff. I am sure that is all WW is can do right now.

Down stairs WW comes to me and says that god of your don't work. Every day I keep waking up. I just want to be dead.

She then starts open handedly punching herself in the head and then taking her open hand over her face and claws herself across the face. She is now balling and starts saying, This is not working. Everything is junk. My life is _ell. I have nothing... NOTHING... I can't afford a place of my own. Even 500 a month rent. I have no washer or dryer. No furniture. NOTHING...

I can't even leave because my head is nuts. I worry about who is going to take care of you. Feed the dog, weather you clean the sink or not. If you will just retreat into a life of depression and let everything go to _ell with out me. The only reason i am alive is because of the kid up there. I don't want to totally ruin her life. I worry about how you will raise her with out me. What she will turn out like. I worry about everything...

I said, It hurts me so much to see you like this. Look at what this relationship has done to you. She says, the one with me and you. I said, It is the affair that is the center of all you pain. The one common thing that is feeding all your problems and is hurting you so much... THE AFFAIR... Look at what has happened to you since this relationship began? WW, god is trying to talk to you but you are refusing to read the signs. She says, what signs????
I said, Just look at your life now. Why do you think nothing is working out right for you. The feelings that are so painful for you. That is the signs...

She says, the counselor told me last night that I worry and think like this because I was carring the marriage for so long. I was doing everything, basically living for you and her. Now I don't know how to stop. She told me I need to work on changing my way of thinking and not worry about so much about you. I need to start thinking more of myself.

I said, Is two hours enough time for any one to fully understand the entire situation? She said, I have been there twice now and I have to go back tonight because she told me I am suicidal and I have to. I said, I am so glad you are getting help. Have you told her everything that is going on?

Still crying she went back into her makeup room. I could hear her crying for 5 or 10 minutes.

Last night she was in total ignore mode again. Not really ignore me, just life in general. She set on the couch last night looking like she was wanted to hide somewhere. She looked to be so miserable and in so much pain.
I tried to talk to her a little before going to sleep. She did not want to speak, however she aske me to talk. So I told her how much in pain she must be. Just how sad, and full of hurt her life looks to me. I pointed out changes that I can see in her quality of life. Basically just how miserable she appears to me. I followed this up by blaming the affair for making her life so bad. NOT HER... The affair. The relationship was the reason why not of this pain would go away, and how she will not heal until the affair ends.
I encouraged her to come to me for help. Reminding her I am here for now. That I can help her reduce the hurt and began healing. This relationship that is not right must end for that to properly work.

I asked her if she ever felt like she was with a stranger when she was with him. I believe that feeling that comes from inside you is the real WW, trying to do what is right.
This relationship we both know is not rightous and correct. No amount of time will ever make it right or justified either. Look at what this relationship has made of you. You are at the lowest low point of your life now. I know you are hurting. I care about you. For me to set here and watch you torchure yourself, I just can not do. However, I can not protect you from yourself. I can only try to help you if you will let me.

I got to run... More later...

This is crap!! Think of herself? That is how she got into the affair. This counselor needs to go!

In His arms.

Dazed, you are getting great advice from some great people. Ignore me if it goes against what you are being advised to do. BUT after reading your last post, is there any way you can just go get WW, take her to the lake or something and just sit with her? She is cracking up big time, and I know the feeling.

I don't think OM can help her through this breakdown, but you can. He won't understand why this is so complicated for her - with them being in love <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> and all that. But you know her and you know why she feels like she is dying. Because she doesn't want to be this woman. This woman who is throwing away her life because she is too weak to reach out. I know what that feels like.

You really are an inspiration to me Dazed.

Dazed, I agree with MM. The councelor sounds alot like our former MC and she needs to go.

Think of herself...come on. I heard the same crap from my MC.

Your WW sounds like she is crashing and you are in a great position to catch her.

good luck

Dazed,

I would bet money WW has not told the counselor all about her relationship with OM. If you know the name of the counselor, I would strongly recommend your calling. Say, Counselor, I know you cannot discuss anything with me regarding my wife. That does not mean you cannot take on information. Then, tell her about WW's relationship with OM.

Regards,

BB

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Excellent! Excellent! Excellent! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You handled that conversation perfectly! A+

I really like Jean36's idea!

Any chance you can follow up on it?

"Dear, I wasn't there for you in the past, but now I've changed. Can you let me help you now?"

I think this is the perfect opportunity to be the Hero! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Charge Ahead SuperDAZED! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dazed, they are all correct. Her three words "I need you" says it all. It was a cry out from your wife, out from the fog...out from deep inside the alien. Your wife is still in there. She needs your help!

But the help is going to have to come in a certain way. You arent going to be able to charge in there and throw her on the back of your horse and ride away. Everythign is booby-trapped. This rescue is going to have to be thought out. You are going to have to be consistent, and patient. There can be NO LBs. NONE! You are going to have to be 100% on the top of your game for the next little while. She is counting on you to do that.

The WW is self-destructing. That is good! Because deep down, your wife has had enough of all of the pain. She wants out. She wants her life back. She wants the pain to stop.

She doesnt know how to do this, though. All she sees is hopelessness. But you know the way. You have the answers!

You are just going to have to continue repeating your mantra...your script. It is working, it is settling in. You may think "I have told her this a thousand times...why doesnt she get it?" Dont think that! Each time you say it, it sinks in a little deeper.

Dont get wishy-washy. Everything has to be black and white. Affair=bad. Family=good. Be consistent. Stay on message.

In His arms.

After my phone call with her I sent her this email back shortly after the phone call.
WW-
I am here and on call for you. Any time…
BS

No response back from her....

I called for her at 11:30 but they said she was in a meeting until 12.

I wanted to go over there, but the last couple of times I went to her work place was not so good.

I don't think OM can help her through this breakdown, but you can. He won't understand why this is so complicated for her - with them being in love and all that. But you know her and you know why she feels like she is dying. Because she doesn't want to be this woman. This woman who is throwing away her life because she is too weak to reach out. I know what that feels like.
_________________________________
Jean36- YOU ARE RIGHT.
WW told me once that OM just does not understand WHY it is so hard for me. He thinks it should be simple. He does not have kids and does not understand why I still love you.
Yes, she has been too week. She has confirmed that thinking about everything all the time has her so tired. It is nice sometimes to take direction from OM because she is just so tired of thinking. (I see giving in to him is just one less fight and she is tired of fighting).

I like your line:
"But you know her and you know why she feels like she is dying. Because she doesn't want to be this woman. This woman who is throwing away her life because she is too weak to reach out."

She more than likely just spent lunch with OM.. You know he demands that from her...
Should I contact her now that she is back from lunch...
I am kind of nervous about this...
Feel like this is a VERY IMPORTANT time right now....


Dazed, they are all correct. Her three words "I need you" says it all. It was a cry out from your wife, out from the fog...out from deep inside the alien. Your wife is still in there. She needs your help!
______________________________________________
But the help is going to have to come in a certain way. You arent going to be able to charge in there and throw her on the back of your horse and ride away. Everythign is booby-trapped. This rescue is going to have to be thought out. You are going to have to be consistent, and patient. There can be NO LBs. NONE! You are going to have to be 100% on the top of your game for the next little while. She is counting on you to do that.
________________________________
MORT---
Yes, I too think there are traps and land minds everywhere.
I need some help planning the rescue. I know what posistion I must take... Keep doing the samething... With absolutely no LB's...VERY KEY..
Knowing how to proceed with out going to far is my concern.
Knowing when to charge, hold posistion, or retreat is the hard part.
I need to spend some time to get my mind right for this. I no she has NOT made any commitments to me for saving the marriage. I want to prepare for the moment when she is ready reach out for me to save her.
To this point I have been working so hard on myself and showing her I am here. Now I need to be ready for the rescue...

Thanks---MM...and all of you.

Hey dazed...I keep reading the thread and am impressed about how well you are doing. You are listening and using the great advice you are getting. What you said about her telling you that God was not listening or providing a way out or however you put it reminded me of a joke/anecdote. I thought it might make you smile and you might even tell it to her and see if she "gets" it..

A man is in his house when a flood starts. Nothing to it, it's just up around his ankles and a police car comes by. The officer asks him if he wants a ride out of town and he replies, "No, my God will take care of me."

A litte longer the flood is about ten feet and he moves up to the second floor. A boat comes by his upstairs window and asks him if he wants a ride. He replies the same way, "No, my God will take care of me."

A little longer he is sitting in his roof because the flood has covered his house. A helicopter comes by and asks him if wants help. Same reply. "No, my God will take care of me."

Sure enough, the flood keeps rising and he drowns. He awakens at the pearly gates where God is waiting for him. He says, "God why didn't you take care of me during the flood?"

God replies, "What did you want me to do? I sent a car, a boat, and a helicopter!"

God always provides. You are correct. You just have to be willing to open your eyes and see what doors he is opening and which ones he is closing. It sounds like God is closing doors and she is sticking her foot in them trying to prevent them from closing.

You are doing great. Maintain the boundaries. Maintain the "no LB'ing".

I think I suggested a while back something similar to something someone else suggested recently. Do you think there is anyway, you and her (not the DD), can get away from wherever you live. Not even far but just away. The fog really started lifting with me when I started just a little NC. It's almost like a habit with her. No, that's what it is. It is a habit and an addicition. I can almost assure you that if you get her away for a few days (where there is no cell coverage hopefully), great strides will be made. Think of somewhere that she wants to go and take her. Just my two cents. As a FWS, I just think it would help if you can pull it off.

Good luck and I am praying for you and her and the OM. Everyone involved needs some prayer.

SNT

SNT-Thank you for the kind words...
Yes, I am listening... Something I needed to improve on...
Good story....lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am feeling a little stressed myself today. Worried about WW and the suicide stuff. Of course it hurts my heart to she her like this.

The point that LEXXXY and Jean36 made is so true. It is the fight taking place inside her. She wants back the person she once was. Not what she has become.

Talked to her on the phone a few minutes ago.
Not sure why today, but I feel nervous and not so creative.
When she picked up, I said, hi it's me. She was quiet.
I said, Are you okay. I am concerned about you. She said, yeah, I have another appointment tonight at 6:30. I said, it there anything I can do for you between now and then? Her voice is now shaking and I can tell she is almost ready to cry. She says, Why? Why, are you still here for me?
I kind of went blank. I am thinking MANTRA.. The first thing that came out was, I love you... I care about you and I can help you through this.
She says, I don't think you can help me. No one can help me. I said, Yes, you are hurting. I will not pretend to know the amount of pain you are feeling. However, I understand your pain, and I know I can help you through it.
She is now crying. I said, Sorry... I only ment to let you know that I am here for you.. She said, I have to go to the bath room now and fix my make up.
I said, sorry again. You know how to find me if you need me.
She asked if I was taking daughter to dance. I told her not sure. I am not really the right person to speak to her about periods and how to deal with them. I will do what i can but, daughter is not all that comfortable talking to me about it.
There was a pause. WW said, yes I know. I have to go now..
______________________________
I guess I need a MANTRA refresher from you experts... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Probably not the best place to say ILU...

Hey Dazed, you handled that well. keep it up.

By the way...there is a reason why she feels like God isnt hearing her prayers. It is because He doesnt hear her prayers. Scripture does say that God hears the prayers of believers. But not all believers. A believer that is in rebellion, God says that He will not hear your prayers either.

Repentence will be the only way that He will hear her prayers. In the meantime, you keep praying.

In His arms.