Just something else I was thinking about...uh-oh...I tried to scan back on the thread and see all the particulars and couldn't find anything so if I am repeating anything, I am sorry and disregard.

I am a little concerned about your daughter. You seem to be shoving the responsibility of any "special talk" on your wife and she is obviously (at least to me) ignoring that responsibility. I don't know if you or your wife has had the talk to your DD and explained what is going on. This is one of those parental responsibilties that needs to be done. My kids are too young right now and I am not looking forward to it but it has to be done. If she hasn't had the talk, she is going to go to her friends for the "talk" and you certainly don't want that. If your W won't do it, it's up to you to see that she gets the correct information on what is going on with her body. Just another stress to add to your day!

I googled and found a pretty good site quick. I am sure there are better ones out there. Maybe even some that could help a dad talk to his daughter.

http://www.4girls.gov/body/period.htm

Like I said, she may have had the talk and you are just worried about the whole tampon versus pad thing. If that is the case, then help her with that or find an aunt or sister or someone who can. If she doesn't know the whole picture, then now is the time for you to do it. It probably should have been done before the first period started but now would still be a great time.

I hope this turns out not to be an issue but as I read some of the stuff, it just made me concerned for your D.

And, I hope this doesn't turn out to be important, but it certainly would be a big arrow in your quiver if this ever goes to custody hearings.

SNT

she is very very unstable. I think this counselor knowing she is suicidal should be reported immediately as this is a breach of practice and something they should deal with asap.

I know this as I have a good girlfriend who is a psych. this is something mandatory. she could be, the psych that is, in dire straits should ww commit that act.

I know you aren't amenable to my words right now as I am preaching something different from the masses here.

your ww is close to crashing. but she will not crash as long as the follows happens:
1)YOU enable her or her affair
2)her counselor enables the affair and undermines her mental sitch
3)she is allowed enough leeway in your home to not crash...to live in limbo eating cake all along the way.

Your ww has NOT EXPERIENCED the fallout from her actions yet. NOT at all. How can one be broken and want to change without the IMPETUS to change?> answer? she is not broken.

I hope you understand this point. It is mandatory for a reconciliation. That the ws see their horrid actions and see how they contributed...CONTRIBUTED...to the state of the marriage and how it is not the bs part 100 percent as the revisionist WS would like it to be.

Your A is great...but she needs impetus to change.

Hey dazed, I don't think I've ever posted to you before. But from reading your posts this song made me think of your wife and your situation.

Bring Me To Life (single, with Paul McCoy)By Evanescence

How can you see into my eyes like open doors
Leading you down into my core
Where I've become so numb without a soul My spirit sleeping somewhere cold
Until you find it there and lead it back home

Wake me up inside
Wake me up inside
Call my name and save me from the dark
Bid my blood to run
Before I come undone
Save me from the nothing I've become

Now that I know what I'm without
You can't just leave me
Breathe into me and make me real
Bring me to life

Wake me up inside
Wake me up inside
Call my name and save me from the dark
Bid my blood to run
Before I come undone
Save me from the nothing I've become
Bring me to life

Frozen inside without your touch
Without your love - darling - only you
Are the life among the dead

All of this time I can't believe I couldn't see
Kept in the dark but you were there in front of me
I've been sleeping a thousand years it seems
Got to open my eyes to everything
Without a thought without a voice without a soul
Don't let me die here
There must be something more
Bring me to life

Mort- Yes, she is in true rebellion. It's to bad she can't see that God is truely trying to help.
I am going to keep praying for her and my daughter. Not so sure I bring myself to pray for OM....I hope God is working on him to. Not much more I can say. His Ex-W told me he is not religious or has any conscious. I can see that she was pretty much spot on that one too.

SNT-Thanks for taking the time to do some research for me. Daughter has had the talk. It's one of those, "knowing what to use and dealing with her emotions". Poor kid has been through so much recently. She felt better yesterday. I spent lunch with her, while her mom spent lunch with OM...
Me and daughter went on with life last night. WW took her to the public library to get some books. Seeing how she can't go into the school library... Nice.. It only took WW two months to address that problem...
I wanted to ask WW if being in the public library brought back any memories. Way back in high school we used to spend much of our time together in the public library. Actually it was right there that I first asked WW out on a date. Memory lane...

Peach-- What is the psych suppose to do with a patient that is potentially suicidal? Who should the psych report too?
_____________________________
I do agree with you that she needs to see into a life with out her family and understand that loss. Identifying the boundries is key I think. This lets her that her actions comes with consequences. What I am doing with my plan A is trying to let her see what it can be like with me and that it can be what she wanted. "SAFE HARBOR" Me the light house...
With love help her see how this affair born relationship has destroyed her life, mental health, status as a good woman and good mother. Help realize that this immoral relation will never be any thing better than just that, wrong and immoral. It will never be legit, or rightous. As long as she is with OM she will never recover her previous status as a good woman. A woman with self respect that can be respected by others, self worth, decentcey.
The only way to heal, recover, and redemption is to end the affair.

This is my plan A / and part of my Mantra.

You may be right Peach. Believe me I know. I truely believe if the affair was over. There is great chances for recovery. You can she it by her patterns and actions. Just a little bit of detox and time with me... She is purched right up on top of that fence. Asking me for help... Each time that self serving, manipulation, control freak pulls, she is right back off the fence.
It is know wonder that her mind is breaking up. Some how I need to get more time with her. Right now OM is controlling her time. He is demanding it from her. She is more than willing to do what HE wants. He has her lunch time every day. If daughter is not home, he demands she be away from me. She has more than likely told OM that she is only in the house for daughter. So, when he knows daughter is not home, guess what... WW has no choice but to also be gone or he will be upset with her....

It has been so hard for me to not question her about where she has been when she in AWOL. Would it be considered a big LB to go there???

It is hard right now to know just how to approach her. She is very emotional any time I speak to her...
Yesterday, just calling her she began to cry. Maintaining contact at a comfortable level is what I think is key. That way I am not the one pressuring. Just reminding her that there is a way out of all this that can lead to happiness and redemption.
What do you all think about this...

I guess she had her appointment last night. She was gone from 6PM till 10:15PM.
Oh, BTW the IC office is located two blocks from OM apartment.... Any ideas where she was last night after her meeting last night?
When she got home she went to the bathroom then up to bed in the guest room.
I went in to check on her. I asked if she was okay. She was almost crying and said, why are you doing this. I said, well I am concernec for you. Seeing how much you are hurting, I want you to know that I can help you out of all this... She said, no you can't. Why do you think you can?
I said, this morning on the phone you said, "I need you". I am here. She said, I did not say that. I said, okay. Maybe you did not say that, but I heard someone say "I need you". She is now crying, and asked me to stop, because her head hurts to much to talk any more. I went and got her another blanket, covered her up and said, good night.

This morning I woke her up. Asked about daughters volunteer apointment today that she set up. She just turns her back to me and says nothing. I said, you can ignore me, that is okay. I am easy.
___________________________
I sent her a little email early before work started.
Good morning…
SMILE today…
LAUGH today…
Have FUN today…

p.s.
Your old teacher Mr. xyz says, to tell you “hi”, and that we have a great daughter. He says, DD takes the time to say hello, and always has something good to say.

Have a good day today…
_______________________________

WW just called me....
Says, why are you doing this to me? You know others here read my email...
I said, I was just trying to be nice and thoughtful. I didn't think I was out of line by just sending you a littel note:
She says again, why are you doing this to me?
I said, doing what to you? You mean being nice, friendly, thoughtful, caring, loving?
She says, yes...Why now...This is not you...Not the man I new for years...If this is you, where were you? Why did it take THIS for you to turn on and become this persona I don't even know. You are a guy that can't manage time, is always late at others expense, does what ever he wants when he wants, before this you could go days with out thinking of me and if I was okay or not. You had pictures of cars on your computer not of me.
You are a show. This is not real.
When she stopped I said, I am sorry you feel that way. What you see is what you get. This is no show honey. It's all for real.
She says, so I am suppose to drop everything and come running to you and give you another chance? I said, Here's the deal... I am working on being a person that I happy with. Not allowing the pressure of time to stress my relationships with people and ruin my personality. Being a person that is not selfish and has priorities straight. Family first....
The person you see today is the way it is going to be. I want nothing more than to share my life with you... Something we got wrong... Sharing life together...Howver, if you choice to go another path and I have to find another woman to be with, then you will see the that I am for real and she will be the one benefitting.
WW says, and I suppose you have one lined up right now. I said, as a matter of fact I do... (Dramic Pause) Her name is Mrs.Dazed...
WW says, well that is just my luck... I will be living all by myself out of a crapy little apartment with no washer and dryer or furniture. No money to buy nothing. You will be in a nice house with all good stuff and some great woman will probably snap you right up in no time. You will be super dad have everything great...That's just how it will turn out...
So, why do this to me?
I said, Why? Let's look at your life now. You are miserable, the most unhappy you have ever been in you life. Is there any time in a day that you feel like your old self that was funny and smiled and laughed all the time. Look at what this relationship has done to you. It has taken everything that was good in your life away.
She says, I was alone for most of my life. You now know all that other stuff about me. Where was that for 13 years. You never told me any of this before. You never wanted to take me places before.
Why did it take THIS for you... I don't understand...

I think you are just worried about what others will think about me leaving you. The embarrassment of loosing me like a prize.
I said, wow you are way off base.... Embarrassment from what? There is nothing that i have to be embarrassed about at all. This is not a game that I am just pretending to be something to just to win and then change back to the old ways. I am happy with the direction I am pointed in.
Can you say the same about yourself?????
It is you that I see is worried about what other people think. She says, I don't care about what any one thinks of me. I said, I don't see it that way at all. I see the good person in you wanting out. Those feelings inside you that hurt so much is the good in you trying to justify your affair. This is because you don't want people to look down on you and you can feel better about it.
I news for you. As long as you are with him people will always think of you as and adultress. Your relationship will always be known as one that is not rightous.
I do know you better than anyone else. I know you don't want that. I know you want to be a good person, and will need redemption for those feelings inside you to heal...

She says, I don't care what any one thinks, and when did you become such a man of god. I have to go now...

Dazed,

Has it occured to you that the short answer to your W's why questions is: "I am growing up W. You were right to marry me because I always had the potential to be what I am becoming. Don't give up now."

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

Dazed,

Absolutely perfect! Other BSs on here need to take heed. This is how to talk to a foggy WS. No LBs in there. Totally staying on message. Perfect!

Dazed, your wife does not believe the changes. that is why she tests you. If she can get you to crack, or change your mind on one little thing...then she can "prove" that you are phoney. As long as you stay consistent, and keep up the mantra, she will have to believe the changes. Remember, when you change...everyone around you MUST change! I think you get that.

But I want to encourage you that what you are doign is having an effect. You should be able to feel that now. How many times in the last 24 hours did she ask the word "why?" Five, six, ten? Can you see how her argument has changed? She isnt saying this cant change...she now wonders why it has changed. That is a HUGE shift in her perspective! As you said to her, she can never go back to saying that you will never change. She has and will see that, whether she is with you or with someone else. She even admitted that when she said she was going to be o nthe outside with a crappy life, while you are living a great life.

You know, my wife asked last spring, about 5 months after the fog finally cleared for good...she asked "Mortarman, how did you do it?" Of course, I asked "what?" What she wanted to know was how did I change, how did I overcome the bad habits, traits, etc. of the past...in the middle of the worse he!! I have ever been through, and come out the otherside a changed man? Know what I said?

I went right back to my mantra, my script, my creed. Because it isnt just that I am saying it...she has now seen that it is reality.

Only time will allow her to fully trust the changes. Nothing you can do to help that go any faster. But what she cannot do is put the genie back in the bottle. She cant walk away now because you were a bad husband, a man that would never "get it." She cant go to OM and see that he is a better alternative (do you notice that she no longer defends the affair or the OM when you say that it is that which is wrong and causing her pain?).

The reality is that you are a changed man. She keeps asking "Why did it take this?" My wife asked the same question. Know what I told her? "Does it really matter why or how that I finally 'got it'? Doesnt it just matter that I get it now? You know Mrs. Mortarman, I have asked myself that very same question. Why couldnt I get it before all of this? And my only answer is that it doesnt matter, that I am here now and better for it. And our marriage now has a chance to be what it should have been."

Dazed, keep this up. When this is all over with, you will be able to come on here and help others, because you have truly mastered this.

In His arms.

I am working on a similar problem. Although I am the FWS, my W asks me those same questions. Why did you act the way you did for 13 years and now you are a "new" person with a "new" perspective? How do I know that if I take you back you are not going to hurt me again emotionally? Lots of those same wonderings about this "new" person she is seeing. She likes it but doesn't know how to trust that it will stay that way.

I agree with MM that the "why" of how it happened is really unimportant relative to the "if" it is for real. You should answer her like MM said that it doesn't really matter "why" it happened. What I told my W was that when I was in the midst of the A, I was in the proverbial "fog". But I told her the fog was greater than just covering the A, it covered the whole M. I saw our M through a fog...a fog that filtered out what I should have been doing, a fog that covered up all the good things, and a fog that did not allow me to reach my potential as a better person. You could say that to her. Your former life in the M is different than you are now. I think you could honestly say you were in a fog. You saw everything as being OK. You responded to her needs in a way that the fog dictated. Now you are out of your own fog - not an A fog - but a fog nonetheless. You are a better person and one who desires to be a better H and a better Dad. You could equate that to the fog she is in. And tell her that. She is in a fog that doesn't allow her to see the good things in you anymore. She is obviously coming out of it like MM said but as long as there is still C, she is in the fog to some important degree. Tell her how much better you feel now that you are out of your fog and have no desire to go back in it. The foggy life is no fun. I am saying that from experience. Whenever I feel the fog coming in around me, I fight with everything I have to push it away because I know the end result is what I want - a "fog-free" life. If she knows that you actively made a change and it is not one that is temporary, she might believe it more. And the fog metaphor that you use on yourself might inspire her to think about her own fog-induced state.

I am really proud of how you are handling things and changing yourself - the one thing in this world you have the power to change and control. Keep it up. Maintain the mantra.

Keep praying. I know it is hard to pray for the OM but I think God needs to work on him too. My W said it was so hard to pray for the OW while our A was going on but it worked. The OW didn't back off but overall, her prayers (and mine) were answered.

I hope you have a GREAT day today. I hope the e-mail you sent your W is true for you too.

SNT

Mortarman- Thank you again!!! I know I just have to let time takes it course... Time is on my side... I know I am going to do what i have set out to do. I have to get better at being able to point out how the affair MUST END.

You know I never really thought about but you are right.. She is not defending OM and the affair like she did.

MM, I find myself thinking about what took me so long as well. I come to the same answer you have. I am here now. That is why I keep telling my WW, I am here for you... or I am here now, when she comments about the past failures.

yes, I do feel she has been really testing me. Looking for that OLD Dazed to resurface. The guy that would go BIG on LBing. This test right now is to prove her choice of OM is RIGHT.

Now, I am calm. My message to her is always the same. Nothing new...Just living day by day...No OLD DAZED...

The way I see it that her affair will always be a part of who I am. We are all a part of our own history. The affair is a part of who we are... From now on and forever. Of course it must end... Once it does, we need to embrace what happened and share the experience to build the foundation of our future.
WW still thinks she can run from her problems. Remember her statement "I want to drive 100mph and let all my memories of you fly out the window"...
Obviously that is not humanly possible... Hence, wanting to die to fix her problems....

Mort-- You are a true inspiration... So many of you on here have been.
I know WW is still lost, hurt, confused, and OM IS NOT backing off.. He won't he is just as lost... Correction: Even more so...
In the face of all this... I feel better... Almost guilty for feeling better... Knowing I am doing the right thing almost acts like a sheild from all the bad stuff going on around me.

This new IC I feel is not acting in my best interest. Just like the last IC WW went to. She went there looking for someone to tell her HOW TO divorce me and feel it is right.
The old IC was an idiot.. However, when she heard a little of my side of the story... Wow, she turn a 180 from seeing no need to speak to me, to demanding we BOTH come in ASAP.

I think WW is misleading the new IC just as she did the old one. Again, looking for the answer to make her feel comfortable and justify choosing OM...

A suggestion was made that I try to contact her IC and provide more information. Yes, it would be great for her to know the truth, but how do I do this?
The last time I had my IC call her IC and visit. That made all the diff in the world. However, I have not seen my IC in months... He is way out of date..

Again I am posting over the top of a prior post... Sorry about that....

How many times can a WS go up on the fence and back down??

Get this::
WW calls me right after her lunch break... Geee who do you think she spent lunch with??? hmmmm
So she calls me...Says, I got your message to call you... I said, Okay, well what do you think about doing something this week end as all three of us? Thought I would see what you thought about it...
She says, well how about a joint agreement... I said, okay what do yo have in mind. She says, well about daughter, will you agree to shared custody and not fight me?
(Can you believe that one....)
Yeah, what a nice response to me putting my hand out there for her...
I pretty much repeated everything I told her this morning. Same basic stuff.

Attacked the affair, did not blame her, told her I refuse to talk divorce,.... She was not very happy with me.

Asked why I keep trying to control her....
My reply was there is no control coming from me at all...
I am not the one that sought you out, comforted you, lured you away from our family, seduced you, and is know telling you to end your marriage...That is control baby..
She says, we never had a marriage. I said, okay... Your not going to get on that one either...

Pretty much replayed my entire MANTRA to her...
Let her no that i new she was just trying to move off center and the one guy that is not pressuring her looks like the easy out... The one that she can say no too...
She did not argue that point...
I told her I again, she can never justify her affair and make the feelings of wrong go away.

I don't believe I love busted... Did not raise my voice. Did not beg her for nothing, Did not tell her she can't leave, did not threaten her, Did not say I would agree to nothing divorce.
She asked one last time before getting off the phone... Are you going to fight me or not... I said, WW there is no fight to be fought ... We both know this.
She says what do yo mean... I said, So do you think she wants split in half? Do you think she will even look at him much less be with you and him? She says, no... I will not have her around him... I said, so in other words you would not have her at all then.... I am not going to argue with you or discuss split our daughter into two pieces...

I was at the school pick up point so daughte came out and got into the truck and I told WW good bye...

The one thing I thought of after hanging up...
"FORGIVENESS" Why does it not even register in her head that I am will to FORGIVE HER for being and ADULTRESS and BETRAYING ME right in front of me???????????

That OM is a real piece of work you know it....
I may have made him mad at me thus making him step up his demands....he he he
She came home last night late and went straight up to bed right....The thought came to me to look inside her purse...
I found that she is trying to get a job with OM's sister...
Her new friend... gee isn't that so nice..
In plain sight was the secret cell phone... back again...
I did not even want to look at it... The last time was enough for me.... So, my next thought... Break the dam thing.. I turned it on to make sure it had the same number... It did.. I took the back off of it add popped the battery post loose off the circuit board...
I have checked the number... It is registered to OM's daddy.
So, it will be interesting if WW will try to blame me for the SECRET cell phone being damaged...
I kind of feel bad about it... Suppose I shouldn't.

So, any buddy willing to take bets on what time she comes home tonight?????
Odds on 5 right after work?
6? 7? 8? 9? 10? 11? 12?
Now keep in mind daughter will be home tonight....

She says, well how about a joint agreement... I said, okay what do yo have in mind. She says, well about daughter, will you agree to shared custody and not fight me?
(Can you believe that one....)
Wow, Dazed just when you think you're making some headway, now this.

I don't know but I think there should be a change in your plan now.

She is too much....and rude too!

Honestly,
Lady

I don't have much to add - you all ready have a great support team here!

But I would just like to say that this is just another dip on the roller coaster ride. I know it is hard, when you were truly starting to see signs that she may be ready to reach out to you. I think she is still going to reach out to you, but it will likely take a couple more set backs like this first. I know it hurts, when you were hoping to spend a little family time together this weekend, and she turns it into a discussion about custody of your DD. But that doesn't mean you aren't making progress. That just means she is really strugelling in her mind! She is mentally testing all the options to see if there is any way she have her cake and eat it too.
I think your response to her was right on. You reminded her that a D would tear DD's world in half.
I just had another thought here. It is even possible that while she was talking to creepy OM at lunch, he may have said soemthing like: "you worry too much about DD, why don't you just tell your H that you want joint custody and you don't want him to fight you." too which she would say "he won't let me have joint custody, no way." and creepy OM would respond with "Just ask him! Can't you at least just ask him, I am getting tired of this crap!"

So, when you called she decided to give it a try, and just come right out and ask you for joint custody. Now she will have to tell creepy OM that you are so stubborn you will not give up DD without a fight.
OM is going to LB a lot over this.

Hang in there. I know that your desire would be for her to suddenly wake up and say "you are right, OM is bad for me, I need to give him up and work on my M instead." And then she would committ to you and never talk to OM again. But I don't think it will be a huge Aha! type moment for her. I think she is more likely to wake up slowly.

Make plans to do something fun with DD this weekend. hopefully WW will see the two of you making plans, and decide to join in.

She is indeed very rude.

I still believe you should NOT write off plan B yet. I think it is looming and will be used btw.

She is totally still in fog.

Unless a WS commits to NC AND I MEAN NC...there is NO reason to take the word or any word of a WS. They are consummate liars...and they consummate other things as well..ok a bit of dark humor there.

She is still cake eating. Tell me something NEW she has NOT done before...hmmm..

let's see...she CAKE EATS...she FENCE SITS...she lies...she is openly in company of OM..she is talking Divorce and shared custody...but sometimes she cries...sometimes she is scared...sometimes she wants to cry on your shoulder...say her life stinks...she wants to die...and then goes out and does same thing the very next day...

What is different my friend?

What can make her BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY? Answer: A different...A DIFFERENT SCENARIO PRESENTED BLUNTLY TO HER.

She is doing the same thing to the OM.

Your A is good. Very good. But there comes a time when you see that the fence is becoming worn in a certain part because the WS' buttocks have sat on it for so darn long! And you open the fridge to see that only not just all the darn cake has been eaten, but everything else too!

You are staying on program. She knows you'd be there if she only does what is expected...NC! She knows this. She is not that stupid or she could NOT have played TWO MEN FOR THIS DARN LONG!

Please think differently a bit.

For me, plan B hit like a rock upside my head. I realized my wh was NOT doing anything at all different. And in one fatal swoop, my love dropped like a rock into a river. Sank. And that was when I did all I could do at that darn time. Go dark. That was btw..the only thing my xh ever responds to...and to this day, if I do completely go dark, he goes bezerk. It's sad. He never got to mourn. He never got chance to come back b/c he was instantly remarried and I don't play that.

Your WW has to go there...to find what life would be like WITHOUT HER NET...WITHOUT HER HERO...WITHOUT THE WONDERFUL GUY SHE MARRIED...WITHOUT HALF A CAKE TO EAT. She'd crumble in a minute! She'd totally lose it.

My original prediction and what I am sticking to is this one: you go dark before the holidays..give it almost 2 weeks totally dark...totally blank...and she's back before new year and OM is toast.

She has to find REASON TO CHANGE. REASON TO MOVE HER OPINIONS AROUND..REASON TO FEEL AGAIN...

And this woman is NOT being played as much as SHE is being THE PLAYER HERSELF...

I hate to break it to you...this is the case. Your WW is PLAYING TWO MEN WELL...QUITE WELL...BUT SHE IS BREAKING DD HEART.

Hi Dazed,

I don't have any advice for you just a pat on the back for sticking to your mantra and holding steady in the storm going on around you. I am keeping up with your posts and I see hope all over the place.

Loni

GREAT JOB DAZED!!!
really really super! You're right on target. Stay consistant with your message!

Wow, are you ever going to be an inspiration to people here!

Just keep your head above water and don't let her get to you. All the garbage she spews at you is to try to derail you. She wants to make you lose control.

You've gotten great at expecting her foggy talk after being indoctrinated by OM when she spends time with him! And really great at staying calm in the face of her gibberish!

Just remember, OM can't possibly win!

Plan your weekend with your daughter without her. Don't let her have any separate time. She either goes with your plan or she is left out.

Dazed,

I haven't posted for over a year, but your story has touched me. I have to change my name (someone I barely knew in real life was mocking me as they read my story), but I just have one small comment and a piece of advice for you.

First, you are doing a FABULOUS job at trying to save your marriage.

Advice: When she asks why are you trying so hard now, tell her simply, 'Because I realized I could lose you and I don't want to lose you.'

God bless and good luck.

HELP_______________________

Wife wants to leave me for OM.....

Well today is the day.

I am about 99.9% sure that OM has instructed WW that its now or never...
Last night she took daughter over to show her the apartment she is renting. They did not come home until 1:30AM...
WW did not get out of the car, just let off daughter.
She was waiting for me to come out and talk to her.
When I first got to the car it was the WW broke down and crying. Reached for my hand and held it to her face and says, she is so confused and her head hurts so bad. I can't stay here. I don't deserve too. I am going to sleep in my car. I said, just come inside. You can sleep with daughter. We both need you, but she really needs you. Come on in. She says, I just can't. I will be okay. I am going to drive around for a while and probably sleep in my car.
I said, It's okay WW. I am here for you. Let me help you. Just come in and talk to me.
She leans her head out of the window a little and looks at the house. I turn to see what she was looking at. Just then she flips.. Pushes my hand away and starts yelling at me. Telling me to go inside. Make sure you lock the doors, you can't remember anything, not even to lock the stupid doors. Don't leave her alone in there... I know you have before... Don't come looking for me. I have to go now.
She rolls up the window and starts driving off.

I could not sleep. Laid awake on the couch all night. She came home at 4:15. Looked shocked to see me as much as I was her. She said, that she parked just down the street at the college parking lot until her car over heated and she had to shut it off. Then she got cold very quickly and came on home.

This morning she woke me up again wanting to negociate her leaving and a divorce.
She said, we need to get this done today.. I said, why today? Why now. She said, well I just need to get this done. We don't get along, we have nothing in common, we don't think alike, etc...etc..
I said, okay... Why today...

She gets angry...Says, Well you are going to have to give me some money now too. That car you make me drive will not go another day. You are going to have to give me money for a new one....

I say, okay... Why do you have to leave today?

Says, well I need to get my deposit and first months rent paid. Then I will only have twenty dollars to live on for another two weeks. No bed, furniture, chairs, washer / dryer, nothing.
I said, Okay... I will pay the deposit and first month rent and you stay through the holidays for daughter.
She says, no way....I don't want your money... I am not staying here...

I said, you know daughter move around the front room just WE could spend Christmas day together. She wanted the tree infront of the window just like our old house.
WW says, yeah... We had such great Christmas memorys... I said, yes we do... Daughter has wonderful Christmas memories. Every year we made Christmas special. Just last year she still believed in Santa. You would have her write to Santa, and you would write her a letter and leave it in her stalking for Christmas day. The night before she would leave out milk and cookies... Me and you would pretend to be Santa and Mrs.Claus... WE HAD GREAT CHRISTMAS MEMORIES.

WW says, well I am not staying... It would be just a lie and give daughter false hopes... This is just you trying to manipulate my head... You always, _uck with my head... She starts pulling her hair and griting her teeth...

Say, I am sick of you trying to control me...I am like a little mouse and you hold the cheese... Just let me leave... I said, I am not holding you back. I am not telling you TO DO nothing. It is not me that is telling you crap like, If you don't leave him this week end I am not going to wait around for you, I just can't take this any more and if you would just follow through and prove you love me then you will leave him NOW.....

SHE HAD NO COMMENT.....PUT HER HEAD DOWN and was quiet for several minutes..

Then says, well what do you consider mine in this house?
I said, well I consider almost everything to be ours....She says, well WHAT CAN I TAKE then. I said, you tell me what it is that you would like?
She says, well I have nothing to set on or sleep on so, I need a blanket. Like comforter, and some bath towels. I said, okay that if fine with me. She was quiet for a moment. Then says, If you loved me or cared about me then you would not keep everything from me and make me live in a crapy little apartment broke with nothing, not even a washer and dryer that my mom help us get on a discount.

I said, okay you can have the washer and dryer, what else do you want?
She says, I don't want your _ucking washer and dryer....You don't think I deserve nothing. I said, You asked, I offered and you say _uck no... You are so predictable. I new you would not accept anything with out a fight. How about OM take his wifes 11K and go buy you a new washer and dryer....

She goes quiet again. Keep in mind we are both laying on our bed. Opposite of each other... Kind of like Yen & Yang... The irony.

I say, so how are you going to tell people the story about how you two meet each other? I think it goes something like this... When I was married to Dazed, and OM was married we both hooked up at a company mixer. It was only days later that OM started stalking me and luring me away from my family and husband to become his mistress and an adultress...
Compare that to WW meeting her husband Dazed the first day of sixth grade. And Dazed walked me home from school holding my hand for a the entire first week.
Then fast forward to Sophomore year in high school when one day they accidentally meet at the snow cone shop and Dazed offered to share his with future Mrs. Dazed. It was then they both new they were ment for each other.

WW says, you are so screwed up.. There is nothing normal about you...
I said, so do you think it is normal to what you are doing?
Leaving your family right before Christmas because someone is lined up behind you like a Mac Truck pushing you to do so?
She had no comment... Went quiet again...

I said WW, Why do you keep looking for ways to prove we can not work? If you tried just half as hard to find ways for us to work.. Can you imagine just how great it would be?
She says, all the same old, you weren't hear for me, you did not like me enough to come home, you say you are here NOW.. and want to be everything for me NOW... and that is not you... You never did blah blah.... and you only see you loosing me and want to do something to stop me... Well it's to dam late... I wanted you for so long... The way you treated me made my heart grow cold...
What is the NOW crap... what about then?
I said, yes NOW... I am here... I have always loved you... I just did not get it... I do get it NOW... What does yesterday have to do with tomorrow? NOW that I am here nothing.... Does it really matter what happened before and what took me so long to get it? The point it I get it NOW... I was stupid... I was in a fog, just like the fog you are in NOW...

Then says, I know you are moving on with out me...Don't even lie....You go out buy new cloths, you color your hair, you are get a new membership at the YMCA, you open a secret checking account, and who knows what else... You probably even have a new woman lined up... Who is she...
I said, yeap... I am moving on, just like I said I would do. My changes are for real.... The woman I have lined up is you... I want to share my life with you and enjoy it together as one, side by side, equalls. I held up my fingers and crossed them. However, it is your choice to be with me. She says, you can't change. People don't change. You are the same person, just acting for me. I said, set back and watch baby... She NO I DO NOT WANT TO.... AND NEVER EVER EVER CALL ME BABY.......I said, well MY pet name for you was pookie...Is that better... She said, yeah... That always made me feel like a little girl too... I said, so being called BABY makes you feel like a WOMAN???? She has no comment... Quiet again for a moment.

Says, so why have you not sold your racing stuff or that big dumb truck and trailer of yours? That was a lie too.
I said, well actually I am showing the trailer today at 3PM... It will all be sold. Obvously I have not had much time to donate towards selling it and people I have shown are trying to come up with money... Racing stuff never sell during the Holidays...
She says, I want half the money from that dumb trailer... How much is it?
I said, well to move it... I will take 10K and I will give you half if that makes you happy.
She said, yeah five thousand... That still only buys me a peace of $hit car. I can't believe you made me drive that junk dam car... No body makes there wife drive an old car...
Tell me where the equity went from selling our old home???
I said, You know where it all went.. Into the house YOU picked out, and new carpet, paint, laundry room, paying off your credit cards, bills... She says, and how much on YOUR trailer... I said, 2200... She says, bull $hit... It had to be more.. WHY did you not include me in any of that stuff. You hid all our money and was an ****** about it. You made sure I was broke and new nothing... I OMG woman...
When we you came to me and asked to sell our home and figure out how to do it... I did... I made you a budget map that included all our money, income, who was getting paid and when... I asked you to help me do it... You said, no I will pick out the house and you figure the bills... I don't like that stuff... It makes my head hurt... REMEMBER...
But, okay WW, what ever you think... What ever makes you look in the mirror and say "I am a good person" and you can live with yourself just good enough to sleep at night... You go on and think it BABY..

Another pause....

She says, will you leave for awhile so I can pack up my cloths? I said, do you think that is going to make it easier for me??? HUH...
I am not leaving and niether is daughter... You can pack right in front of her and say, look daughter... This is mommies Christmas present to you....

WW had not comment....

We laid there quiet for several minutes....

I said, WW I love you with all my heart... I am here NOW...
Do you think I will never forgive you for what has happened. Do you think if you stay here with me that OM will be able to do or say anything to make me change my mind about you? Because he can't....
She says, well what would he say or do... I said, I am just letting you know... I will not punish you or hold this over your head...
I think you are angry with me because you know I am right.. You are probably thinking to yourself, THAT SOB... He really is going to do what he is saying... He just might really change.
She says, Dam right I am mad.... You go and do all this after I move on... I finally get up the guts to leave your dumb @ss and you decide to become great, perfect and super dad.... Look at what I got from you, and will make some other woman a great husband...

She then got up and took a shower.

Once out of the shower she laid around the house... First in daughters room and then in the guest room. I cooked daughter lunch, cleaned up. Before I left.. I felt really emotional about that conversation with WW.
I went into the guest room and put her hand in mine, gave her a hug and told her I am sorry things between us have to be this way.

Just had a long conversation with Ex-SIL....OMG
She just wanted to tell me that her and her OM are done with WW... WW has been dumping daughter over there alone with 15yr old boy...They just found out themselves this has been going on... Ex-SIL's OM wanted to call me himself... Ex-SIL wanted to let me know that WW is no longer welcome and to not EVER bring over daughter with out prior approval.

She wanted to tell me that WW is just using me... She is only in the house to win custody. She was going along with the parade until finding out that she was willingly putting daughter in harms way for this guy... She told me she is now on my side and wants to talk sense into WW... I told her good luck..
Ex-SIL said, she did not want to hurt me but felt I needed to know that WW will never be coming back... She is lieing to you about him controling her and placing rules on her... She believes that WW is only trying to make it look like he is making her do this so you are not so hurt by her not having any love left for you. She said, she was a WW herself and understood.. Now she is hurting daughter and with drawl of the divorce petetion is only further hurting you more....

Next time respond with ... On the contrary, the saying is "you can't change somebody" not "you can't change yourself"...nobody can tell me I do not have the power to change myself...you have that power to...I can't make you commit back to this marriage...it is you that must decide to give us another chance. You see...you must decide to do what you know is right and change with me, not for me.



This was classic hall of fame type reverse babble. I presume from the context that "baby" is OM's pet name for WW. Simply awesome.

BTW, don't buy everything SIL says about WW playing you. WW remains on the fence otherwise she would have followed through with the divorce. WW will lie to others to get them to accept her behaviors and try to get them to buy her rationalizations and justifications. I am glad she/they are on your side. Your writing sounded like they were a little upset towards your daughter but I think that is just my inference and not what you were implying.

You've come so far Dazed from your days of "running into" OM and WW everywhere in town. I know you are in the dumps but whatever happens you will be always be proud of standing up for your marriage. Whether you save it or not you are now behaving rationally and with integrity. I have a feeling Plan B is going to be so effective. We are all pulling for you.

God bless...warrior

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - I'd like Mortar's opinion on you offering to help out with money and items so much. I never had to go to plan b nor separate so I defer to the experts.

I would also like to send out some props to PLEASE HELP who pulled all of us out of pushing Dazed to Plan B/Divorce a few weeks ago. I, for one, pushed Plan B/separation awhile back (when his WW went nuts and tore up the house in front of DD and Dazed). Unlike PLEASE HELP, I just didn't have faith that Dazed had this kind of Plan A in him. God must be working here as PLEASE HELP had not posted in such a long time and shows up at just the right time to set us all straight (I am not going back so I apologize to anyone and everyone that was agreeing with PLEASE HELP at that time).

Ultimately it is Dazed that gets the credit...he had both sides of the argument and could have choose either way and perhaps been right. I think Dazed made the right call. Marriage or not...he has turned himself around and put on the best Plan A he could...

Mr. Wondering

Sorry dazed...just read your earlier post asking about a counselor and suicide threats. Any counselor or psych usually ...and I say this from knowing a few, would immediately report somebody or call 911 if they felt a patient was TRULY suicidal. They have a medical obligation to do so. It would be negligent of them to not do it if their patient disclosed the suicidal thoughts or tendencies, and a wish to act on that, and the professional did nothing about it.

Your WW is as I suspected playing two people. You and OM. Do not listen to xsil too much. She could also be playing you. She is a WW also. Don't listen to the words of the waywards...they have a tendency to lie ok?

I am sorry for what has happened this evening. But you have done a wonderful job of plan A thus far...and it may imho, be ending. End on a very very excellent note with her before implementing plan B ok? Do NOT leave her with a bad taste in her mouth.

That being said, I would NOT give her any money from the sale of the trailer. I would first disucss it with lawyer as the money will be used to FUEL THE AFFAIR...FEED THE AFFAIR. It's like listening to words of a crack addict...saying they only need a few thousand so they can get "warm comforter, sheets, and first months of rent"...you know darn well where that money is going...to the pipe ok?

Let your WW soon find out what it's like to be like the character George in "It's a Wonderful Life" where he says before jumping off the bridge that he wished he'd never been born...and then goes on to see what would have happened to those around him if he were not there. YOur WW says if you loved her you'd give her the money. If you love her and she's an addict, would you give her money for furthering her addiction? No you would not.

I fear she is very much damaging your dd...I am sickened at her actions if indeed the xsil is telling truth for once. One way to find out...get xsil to make an affidavit or tell her you need her to speak to your lawyer and make a legal statement concerning her allegations. If she backs down, say that you'll have her subpoenae'd. See if she changes her story. She was once in cahoots with the WW wasn't she? She is a XWW still isn't she? I just am not sure she's telling the truth.

I believe it should be YOU who choses to go to plan B instead of WW. It will make you more appealing to her. Make her think she is loosing you.

Dazed she is NOT changing. She is getting worse. Take it from somebody who has dealt with a Ws for four years now...I can read them like a book. I even have "WS radar" I swear I do! I knew in an instant, a feeling I got, that darth had left FV...don't ask me...just knew...even before son said a word. I felt all last week, when I was visiting family, that they'd fall apart before the holidays.

Holidays have a certain effect. Seems like it makes deadlines be drawn in the sand. And maybe OM is pushing for the D...but I felt all along that it was WW who is the master manipulator here. I have always sensed that. A really naive woman accidentally finding herself in this sitch could not function here. But a master manipulator can play TWO men and play them for six months. Trust me, I know a master manipulator when I meet one. My xh is the king of them.

Please use your head...continue to keep doing so. And realize that the door closing on her may be her only way back. I just do not feel that there is any dramatic movement from her back to the M right now. I think A has done a decent job of maybe confusing her a little, but I feel real life, real consequences, will be the key here.

In the meantime, don't feed her affair (bob pure used to say that one)...don't feed it! No money to the affair. Buy THINGS for her like blankets, comforter, etc., but NO cash! It will fuel her affair. Do not feed her sense of entitlement at all.

That being said, I would NOT give her any money from the sale of the trailer. I would first disucss it with lawyer as the money will be used to FUEL THE AFFAIR...FEED THE AFFAIR. It's like listening to words of a crack addict...saying they only need a few thousand so they can get "warm comforter, sheets, and first months of rent"...you know darn well where that money is going...to the pipe ok?and
YOur WW says if you loved her you'd give her the money. If you love her and she's an addict, would you give her money for furthering her addiction? No you would not.
All of these words were on the tip of my tongue...I fully agree...
Dazed I don't know what you were thinking when you were telling WW you would give her money for her apt., from the trailer, buy her a car, and etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.You cannot do that.
She has her apt, let her figure out how she is going to live. She wants you to make everything so finacially comfortable so she can go on with OM. And that is all she cares about. Do you see the sickness of that? When she is gone, let it be up to lawyers to decide. Do not give her a penny. She will then need to take responsibility for her actions.

Do not depend on XSIL her for any info, as she is a WW also, and what she tells you may be untruthful babble.
Just protect your DD from being with that boy alone. I'm almost positive XSIL had to have known that they were left together alone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Could last night have been one of those nights?



Lady