HELP--
Take a look at today's email conversation with WW...

Please advise what to do with this -
I am very tired today. No sleep last night... After seeing WW email, I am feeling very stressed....
Should I just call her and ask, "WHAT ARE WE DOING"??

Okay- I chose to play nice again today. That is what i want to do anyway but, I figure if I atleast communicate with her maybe I can figure out just what she is doing and when... Obviously for some reason she is thinking NOW is the time to make her break...
It looks like there is little chance of her staying until after holidays...
Last night when she came home there was no words spoke... If I can get her to tell me what her plans are I can figure out how to posistion myself..

Based on her statements from today, I feel she is going to make a move very very soon...

This kind of started this morning. She is wearing a sweater I bought her for Christmas four years ago. I told her I had not seen that sweater for awhile. She said, this just suck the way things work out. I said, of course I remember the sweater. She said, so where did we buy it. I said, Topeka at Kohls... You must have tried on twenty sweaters that day before I told you how good you looked in that one and I bought it for Christmas. She teared up and headed for the door...

I sent her an email when I got to work..

Dazed wrote:
The green mudd sweater was always one of my favorites on you… The red one is also good.
We bought both of them at xyz. There is a small snag on the green one that was there when we bought it. You found it on clearance.
I always liked shopping in xyz with you. Kohl’s is one of my favorites and the mall there is a butt load better than here. We should go there before Christmas.
Have a good day… Good luck staying warm!
___________________________
WW wrote:
this sweater does not have a snag in it.
I've looked all over for a snag-it has no snag.
i'm sorry for how things have worked out. I know
you will have an awful x-mas. I know this is my fault.
I know you will blame me for the rest of your life.
_____________________________
Dazed wrote:
Yes, the sweater does have one… Not so much a snag as a small hole… Don’t worry it’s not noticeable.
Were in this together…We can come out of it together too…

_____________________________

_____________________________
Dazed wrote:
Just seen that the 21st is two weeks from today… Let’s me you and DD do something for it...
She will have a little something special for you that she is planning. (gift)…hint.. hint..

___________________________
no Dazed, I can't.
we can't.
we have to stop this. it's time to
move on. you know it. we can't do this
anymore--we can't live like this.
I have to get to work. sorry.

___________________________
Dazed wrote:
You are so very right…
There is a way for us to be happy, we just have to move on it and stop living like this.
Let’s talk about it later at home.

__________________________

WW wrote:
no Dazed, that is not what i mean.
I am going to move in another direction.
i know you are not surprised. it's just best.
i know you don't want to face it, but we both have to.

________________________________

Dazed wrote:
Sounds like you need to tell me in some detail what we are doing then….
Help me understand the direction your taking and how it is best for our family.
_______________________________
WW wrote:
you know i have not felt like we were
a family for a long time. I think it's best
for DD to have a happy mom & happy dad-
even if they are not together. I wanted to be a family
(close) for so long. I wanted you to want to be w/ us.
I wanted to not have to ask you to come home-& it not to
be a burden or take you away from something you thought
was more important. That was a dream of mine. I lost
love all of those times I had to call you & you became irritated.
& you were late always later than you said you would be. I felt
lied to all the time-so often-like every night.
It's sad the way things work.When I wanted you & needed you-you
were not available. Now you are. It sucks how things work out.
There is nothing left to say--I tried, & you didn't hear me. Now
you are killing yourself trying, but I can't hear. It's just best to end things.
Best for me. You will see in time it will be best for you too.

You know Dazed, I was thinking about something this morning. Obviously, Steve and others, are far more in tune to what's going on here, but as I read you 1st post today I couldn't help but to wonder 'Do you have love left for your wife or is this sucking all that away?'.

Granted I ain't no expert but for the protection of any resemblance of love and for the sake/safety of your daughter, that Plan 'B'/Seperation doesn't sound like a half bad idea.

In my case, I never thought I'd be the one to pull the trigger until I found one day that I had nothing left. I actually was in the process of filing when it was discovered she had filed.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers.......

My honest take?

She will not come back from your Plan A.
She will not come back until OM has let her down.

I understand your reasoning for prolonging Plan A. But as soon as you sense that she has acknowledged your changes and consistancy, be ready and enthusiastic for Plan B -- because thats where it will be possible for her to return.

She trying so hard to spin this her way. She's manipulating the situation so that she can somehow gain custody. She's unwilling to leave unless she can procure that.

With the information you just got from ex-SIL, I would go for SUPERVISED visitation for WW. She has lost her mind sending her 12 year old daughter off with teenage boys.

Plan B / losing control of the sitation / losing status as mother / not having Dazed to meet EN's / OM having to step up and fill all those gaps (impossible by the way...)
Thats what its gonna take.

I think it would be far more powerful to happen prior to Christmas. For her to be shut out over the holidays.
I understand your reasons for waiting. But its just my opinion that Plan B would really hit home if delivered before. I think if you allow her to be around, she will poison your efforts to give daughter a joyful Christmas. I think you have visions of it being this wonderful bonding experience -- I think she will be toxic and spoil it greatly for both you and daughter. She's still trying to encourage you to WANT her to leave. And she will eventually succeed.
Then if you AGREE to the divorce, maybe you will enable the whole process. Makes it so much easier on her that way.

Personally, I'd like to see you "let her go." Not throw her out, but just keep saying "if you want to leave, then leave..." Just don't hold her or try to keep her.

When she makes the choice to go -- instant Plan B.

She is then left knowing exactly what she walked away from. And there is no possible way fantasy-land is going to measure up. She will have lost her daughter, her home, her financial security, a husband that did all he could.

What will she have gained? not much. OM will never be able to fill the gap left by her daughter. OM will be providing a lousy apartment compared to the home she wanted so badly. OM will maybe be able to provide money for a little while since he snatched it from his x-wife. The infatuation will end fast.

Especially if you can somehow increase her doubts in him. My OM was a big flirt -- and it was a big problem for us. I had given up SO MUCH for him that my expectations of his devotion were exceptionally high. My jealousy and possessiveness were WAY out there. And he did things to try to provoke me into leaving my family sooner than I wanted to. I had this grand plan where everyone would be happy! HA!

I look back at it now and recognize what a sick ugly relationship it was. UGH.

So keep talking about how they can never look back with pride at their relationship.

more later...

Dazed,

There is an old joke that goes something like:

“A man finds a lamp on the beach. Rubs it and out comes a genie who offers him ONE wish (yep – the number of wishes has deflated). After some thought the man tells the genie that he wants to be irresistible to women. The genie says that his wish will come true the next morning. Next morning the man has turns into a slab of chocolate”.

Yes – I know it’s not a good joke but it does have a moral and that moral is relevant to your case. Your wife is wishing for something and she thinks she knows what it is and what the consequences will be. What she wants is a divorce, equal custody, half the assets, support and the OM.

What you want is your wife. I‘m sorry but it is beginning to sound like you won’t get what you want but maybe it’s time to make sure she does neither. Maybe the time has come for her to become a slab of chocolate.

I agree with the comments about the unhealthy environment for your DD. Also the questions about dyeing her hair and the teenage boys hanging around. Don’t have to be the Pope’s younger brother to realize that this is not a healthy environment for her and she is reaching a very critical age. Sure seeing you stick up for marriage is a great role model for her. But seeing WW getting away with her behavior is equally corroding.

Do you realistically expect some major burning bush revelations soon that will make your wife come back? I am so sorry Dazed, cause I have monitored and like so many stood in awe at your valiant battle but you now have to think solely about you and D.

Give your wife what she wants: surrender Plan A. Let her go. Let her file or you file but fight for full custody, the house and everything. Make her move out as soon as you have filed. Do you really think going on like this will benefit you or D over the holidays? Do you think Christmas will be better or worse for you or DD if WW leaves tomorrow? How will you feel when she sneaks out on Christmas Day? How do you think DD will feel over the holidays in the tense environment?

I truly think that the only way out of this for you right now is Plan B. I am not sure whether she will come back or whether OM will kick her out. I do know that the present situation is not only going to destroy your wife but most likely take you ad DD down with her.

I am betting Lexxxy is correct.

Dazed, I would begin to pull back until after Christmas. Not completely. But as Lexxxy said, just stop doing all of the little things you have been doing. Start moving toward Plan B. You can keep trying to include her in events (Christmas), but dont go out of your way to convince her.

Added to that, it is time to stop defending yourself and the marriage. Up until now, it has been your mantra (and will be). But instead of defending, it is time to just say "You know the truth, Mrs. Dazed. You will see the truth someday." That's it. No more explanations. No more discussions. She has heard you. As Steve said, she really does believe that you have changed...that you get it. Now, she has to start seeing the ground coming up...when she will go "splat."

So, I would start disattaching from her. Prepare for Plan B. Dont worry if she is going to file. Dont listen to her. If she does, she does. You have a great case, as long as you have documented. Really, everything is in your ballpark (as she continues to say!).

Time to step off the rollercoaster, dazed. Plan A until after Christmas, but do so while slowly backing away. Then go NC after the holidays, filed for separation...

Lexxxy is right. She has been there.

In His arms.

Just a thought, here, Dazed....I am beginning to wonder if she feels you are smothering her with all the affection, e-mails, phone calls. That can backfire on you - instead of working like Plan A should, it could be distancing her further....just a thought.

Brit's Brat

UPDATE:
THE LAST STAND: Might be tonight....
WW has agreed sit down and talk with me tonight right after work and daughter is out of the house.

I need to be prepared.... ANY SUGGESTIONS....
1) Do I stay on my MANTRA with out LB's. Negociate???
2) MANTRA plus fear tactic...Life with out Dazed.. She keeps saying she is scared... HOW DO I CAPITALIZE on this?

PLEASE ADVISE.....

____________________________

LH,
Yes, her actions have really hurt me very much. I do still lover her...I feel there is more damage inside me now than just how much i love for her. I am not ready to evaluate myself... I think things have been happening so fast that much has not really sunk in yet. It will probably take the storm to calm before i can figure myself out.
Love for her.... Most no question I still have love for her.
Has my love for her been changed... Yes..
_________________________________________________________
Lexxxy-
How can I increase her doudts about OM? He has no police record. OM's ex-wife is the holder of all the information I have on him. I would have to hire someone to over turn every rock there is. His ex-wife seemed eager to help me last time I visited with her.
Do you think there are any angles to be played there... Might be a dream, but if there was any way she would support my full custody case by testifying against him about anything... I don't know.

How can i be creative and apply more pressure on her relationship with OM and not come off as the real bad guy.
1) Exposure to his new work place? I also know people that work there.
2) Exposure to her boss and HR? The company owner don't not only care about her affair but gave her a 1.25 and hour raise... Can you believe that?
3) Help her car stop working permanently.
4) legal restraining orders against OM.
5) Not give WW anything at all... Kids, money, assets.
6) WHAT ELSE CAN I DO TO APPLY THE PRESSURE.
This all runs a fine line between MANIPULATION... I am not comfortable with that, but in times like this is it wrong?

Lexxxy, I agree it appears she will have to fail with him now... It is apparent I am out of time to prevent her from the test drive she always wanted.

She wants to leave just not with out what she wants... Obviously I am not going to get what I want either...

I think If she wants to negociate for custody I may consider giving up some material things for daughter... That is the only angle I will give in on... I would think that if she takes some house hold items to leave daughter, It will be a win win plan for me..

IDEA's PLEASE...

BB-- I thought that too early on...
For the last two months I have stopped emailing her unless she contacted me first and we kept is parent issue related.
Today was the first relationship related email in a very long time.
Also, I stopped calling her unless it was a parenting issue.
She called me as much if not more that i was calling her.

At home I have also backed off the relationship talk. I found once I did that she was then wanting to either talk of fight about it.

Yes, early on after D-DAY I did smoother her with everything. Now I just tried to be nice, caring, considerate with no LB's.

I believe my plan A deposited love units but also angered her, conflicted her mind, and created resentment for me.

I have not really identified the source of OM's power on her way of thinking.....Any Ideas...Lexxxy?

MM and Lexxy, had some good advice on how you should communicate.


I would like to mention one thing about this line of thinking, first off, do not enable bad behavior. If she wants to leave she can pack her clothes, pretty much the rest of the household is marital property and we'll leave the divorce stuff to the lawyers, especially while you're standing for your marriage.

The other thing is pretty much any agreement y'all make, even if you both sign it and get it notorized and whatever else, is pretty much useless when done outside the presence of your attourney's.

I do not believe you should NEGOTIATE (not "negociate" -- engineers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> ) at all. I think one of the reasons we say "Only do marriage and refer all legal matters to your attorney" are because any negotiation for daughter vs. money vs. household items are going to infuriate WW or be perceived as manipulation. There is no way to negotiate this stuff without a fight and without implying you have mixed up priorities. OM's priority is your wife...to combat that your priority needs to be perceived as your marriage...let the attorney's handle the rest.

However, if you must give one firm proposal, like a couple pieces of furniture, washer/Dryer and $2000 cash (with a "promise" for more money later which you can slow pay on), as an example you may trick her into leaving amicably and save you both attorney fees. I just do not see such negotiations going smoothly without you enabling her with too much money. I'd rather have you pay your attorney and have OM blow his money on her attorney (nice little love buster waiting to happen as he wastes his money).

You will angrer her with sticking to no divorce/separation discussion but I think that really is for the best. It reinforces your entire Plan A (i.e.-that you a strong, faithful, confident man resolute in your convictions and love for her). If you negotiate her leaving you can bet OM will build her up by saying "Baby...I'd never negotiate letting you leave me...he's doing this because his assets are more important to him than you". Instead they are stuck with no ammunition to bash you cause deep down they both know you are right...so maybe they will just LB each other in frustration.

Kinda rambling but I hope I made my point.

MR. Wondering

dazed,
I only have two points:

1. I agree that daughter needs happy mother and happy father. Add to that an intact family, and we've got a winning combination. You don't believe that we can both be happy together, but I do. For daughter's sake. Give me a chance to show you how I know (i.e., working with Steve Harley). (also, every time she brings up her right to happiness, reaffirm that you want her to be happy, but she clearly is not, and you don't believe she will be if she leaves.)

2. I know you're angry about your wife's irresponsible behavior, especially with regard to your daughter and boys. I'm not trying to talk you out of your anger or concern. But I find it interesting that your daughter is now the age that your wife was when she was molested. I have heard many times of people behaving erratically when their children reach the age the parent was at the time of a traumatic event (being molested, parent died, etc.). This doesn't excuse your wife's behavior. But maybe it will help you to consider that she might have some stuff going on related to her childhood trauma without realizing how it is affecting her.

Yes, you all are right... I new the answer to my question.. Lawyers are divorce, I am about marriage....That's what we talk about...

Mort- Good to see you back... You are right...Stick to my pro-marrige posistion. Yes, she does see me and you are right. Just telling her I am for real is enough.

My head has been up my you know what all day... I am sure many of you are tired of repeating your advice to me.. Thank you all...

dazed...

I haven't posted in a while and I think you are getting some great advice from a lot of people. I can really appreciate listening to Lexxy's advice since I am a FWH. Not quite the same but still very similar. Although my "reversal" out of being a WH has been recent, it is still difficult to remember everything that was going through my mind. When I look at pictures or happen on something that reminds me of what I did, it is very difficult to put myself in that place. It was me but it wasn't me. Confusing, I know.

You, Steve, and everyone else that says that she "sees" the change in you is right on target. She sees it but still doesn't believe it or want to believe it. After all, she has years and years of "proof" that shows something completely different. So, THAT plus the added bonus of having an OM telling her from square one how wonderful she is and how much happier she is going to be clearly leads towards her leaving you. If she chooses to get her marital advice from the OM and from other people who are only concerned with telling her what she wants to hear, you are fighting a losing battle. Only when I started talking to people in my Bible Study about what was happening and others who were not afraid to look me in the eye and tell me I was screwing up, did I begin to see the damage I was doing to my W, my kids, and myself.

That being said...when you are talking to her tonight, I wouldn't do a lot of talking. No trying to convince her. You have said over and over everything that needs to be said. If she asks questions, answer them. I am not saying go "dark" but I wouldn't come across anymore as the begging, pleading, "let's give it one more try" kind of guy. Let her fill in the silent gaps with her thoughts. You might be surprised with what you hear. Just put a smile on your face like you have your act together. She doesn't. If she asks for "things" to fill her apartment, I would give her nothing. Tell her that everything is staying in the house (with the exception of what is obviously hers) until attorneys get involved. If she wants to negotiate on custody, tell her that the D is staying with you and if she wants to see her, you are not going to stand in her way. Only, the OM cannot be involved AT ALL and she (the W) must stay with the D at all times. I think it would be bad for you to not allow the D to see her mom for the D's sake. But if she wants to see her, that doesn't mean depositing her somewhere else. Tell her if you find out that the D was without her mom for one minute, you will not let her see her unsupervised anymore. That is one of your mantras - "protecting your D" - and you cannot negotiate on that.

I am trying to roleplay the conversation in my head as best as I can do. If that was me, truthfully, it would tick me off. I think you need to expect that. You need to expect that she is going to leave and go to the OM after hearing that you are not willing to "take care" of her by giving her things or custody. If you are prepared for that, when she does it IN ORDER TO MANIPULATE YOU you will be able to have a planned response. Your response is something to the effect "I am sorry to see you leave mad. It breaks my heart that you will choose the OM over the new me and your D. But if that is your choice, I am not going to stand in your way." Something like that. Don't let her play you like a fiddle with threats to leave, calling you names, telling you that you don't care about her, etc... That is also babble. She knows you care. She knows you want to take care of her. And most importantly, she needs to know that you will not put up with the A or with the OM for one more second.

About the holidays, that is a tough one. Rotten timing. Steve has a point. But, after what has happened, it seems like you are danged if you do and danged if you don't. It is going to be sad in one way or the other either way you go. If she is around, she is going to be sneaking off to talk or text which will drive you up the wall. She may even start fights which would ruin any Christmas morning. If she's not there, it will be painful also for you and your D. Which is worse? If she leaves and asks if she can come back Christmas morning, I would tell her she can but you are making plans to go out with your D on Christmas day so it will have to be quick and worked around your schedule. That would let her see her D on Christmas, keep the D with you, and drive her crazy thinking about what fun things you two will be doing while she is sitting with the OM. If she asks what you are doing, tell her you have several things in mind and haven't decided yet. Don't tell her any details.

This turned out to be a lot longer than I thought. I am wondering what Lexxy thinks of this advice since she was the WW and I was the WH. Nice and pleasant but unbending and direct. If she wants to keep this going until Christmas, let her. However, have your ducks in a row because on the 26th or 27th - PLAN B! You have to buddy. She has forced your hand.

Man, I am thinking about you all the time. I read this thread first. You are in my prayers and I am really trying to get in your W's head. Please keep praying about this - several times a day if you aren't already. Ask some of your friends to pray for you also. It works. God has a plan for all of this. Let Him work it and be His tool.

SNT

SNT said it perfectly. Tonight you are "nice, pleasant but unbending and direct."

There will be no negotiation. The home remains intact. If she wishes to leave, she can take her personal belongings and she knows where the door is.

She will be hostile, angry, and all of it is just manipulation to get what she wants. She will use blame and anger to get you to budge on letting her have her way. Just remember, her way is FLAWED. Stay firm.

She is going to ruin Christmas -- just plan on it right now. Either by staying and being hostile and bitter, or by leaving and being hostile and bitter. And it will all be YOUR FAULT by the way (ridiculous isn't it??)

Its your fault that you were the way you were. And its your fault that you are the way you are now.

She still thinks there's a way to have a happy family -- separated. Happy mom and Happy dad, just not together anymore. Let her know you're not going to be her friend later. There is no happy ending with cordial co-parenting and you being happy for her.

Don't tip your hand about ex-SIL's revelations. Keep that to yourself for now. Until you have her comments documented or on record. Otherwise WW will try to flip her.

she has been hanging around dazed b/c of her attorney...not b/c she is confused.

let her think whatever she wants...I'd passively let her move out as Mr. wondering suggested ok?

i would let her pack her belongings, and maybe a lamp or something small. i would give her five hundred bucks.maybe a grand, but that's it. enough to give her a smile as she walks out door.

and then i'd let her go...before christmas...and crash.

i totally agree w/lexxy. she needs to see how it feels to be outside of the family during the holidays...excommunicated if you will...she needs to know it was herself and only herself which imposed this.

the om will begin to lb...ironically holidays period are considered stressful times...just ask my friend who is a shrink...he gets unusually busy at the hospital...that's the curse of the holidays. they will go thru a very stressful holiday..no romance, no smooth transition. let her fantasy crumble.

and yes I agree w/other poster who has said you may be instead beginning to further push her away with the cards, the bringing her sodas, the invites to dinner, to shopping trips...it is all beginning to look like rewards for her bad behavior..enablement ok?

this woman is behaving quite irrationally. i would allow her to leave definitely before christmas...give her the little bit of money, her clothes and the darn lamp. or maybe some other small household furnishing. let her think she has won...hand her your plan b letter as she heads out door so when the fantasy becomes the darkest of realities ever she can maybe refer and find a way back to the light...if not, she is more wayward than i believed.

you still believe her naive. i think she may be pushing the om as hard as he is pushing her. i think there is much you will find out if you employ a private eye for a mere 24 hours...

this is incredibly damaging to your dd now. she is learning how to lie, cheat, and live immorally. she is seeing a poor model of a mom and wife to pattern her life from. but she does see you as a good dad.

i sure hope steve has been reading this b/c i feel this is turning quite negative...your sitch needs a serious change b/c plan a is having no effect now...it had a great effect for sometime, but ww knows you are a different man. she knows your mantra. she knows you. and she can spew whatever crap she wants to about why it is ok for her to leave her family...i hope you are not really buying that lame excuse...it is nothing but shifting and spinning the blame.

it is shameful entitlement going on here...and she is being more than disrespectful to your family...to her own dd. it is sickening.

please let this wayward woman crash...that is the only snowball chance in ****** of getting back your wife. lexxy is right...plan a time is over. i would NOt wait till after Christmas. I would let her drop her own bomb and live with her ungodly fallout in that tiny dismal apartment...if that is where she is really staying...again a pi can confirm if she is doing that. it is terribly pollyanna of you to even believe that she will spend one night alone in that darn place...we know she will be shacked up with the om.

let's carefully remove the rosecolored glasses dazed. it is time for tough love. there is nothing to wait for. if you want to garnish a little respect and turn tables a bit earlier, passively allow ww to leave now.

be calm when you speak wtih her...let the convo be the last glimpse of a great plan a. do not let her get your goat. stay on mantra, but let her see that you are allowing her to leave now...i would say tht it is your choice mrs. dazed and i would be controlling to keep you against your will...thus i am not. here is my offer. in time you will see your choice and i pray you choose wisely then. give her the money, her clothes and sparse furnishings...let her pack the car om bought for her and leave.

she will crash when this begins...when this new life begins..if you call it a life.

hand her a plan b letter, kiss her cheek and say bye for now. let her walk out the door. let her seeing you let her go. for it is only then will her heart begin to see differently.

om will love bust. he can't fill en's. he can't win back dd after the courts say no to ww. he does not have that power. his 11k will dry up shortly. let them lb like heck before a divorce process really gets underway...let it begin now and they will be so unhappy by the time the lawyers even begin doing a legal separation.

and in the end this is right to do as dd needs a firm home life. she needs to see dad is stalwart and not going anywhere...she has seen enough abandonment already...she knows her mom is only at home in the physical sense...and rarely at that. even if ww lawyer knew her whereabouts, he'd say that legally she has snowball chance in ****** of getting custody now. turning your dd over to a boy? what kind of mom is that.

I know a woman who was a victim of sexual abuse...she is an rn i work with...she is a good...no take that back, great mom. a faithful wife . who worked her life out. we were once talking about a murderer who blamed his sprees on his being molested as a child. my friend said that she had a choice just like all of us have a choice. she could have chosen to not be a good mom, get married, go to college or she could have chosen herself to become a loser, get no education, and live immorally ...we all have that choice irregardless of our beginnings...she said that she thinks alot of people use that as a crutch, their past, and blame that for anything bad they do...again, blame shifting and spin. my friend is perfectly normal. no cheating. no problems with her h and sex. nothing! so why is your ww blaming this...why are you looking for something else to blame...why not accept your ww has chosen to live life as though she was a woman working the red light district? she is shameful imho as a mother endangering her precious dd as she has literally handing her over to the wolves...much older guys. i am totally sickened at this thought.

just be calm. express to ww tonight that 1)dd is not going with you...no custody 2)you may leave now, and take x amount of monies with you so you can live until lawyers work an agreement out. 3)and you can have your clothes and some household goods...no furniture though.

In fact i would have my lawyer have her and om pay child support...how about that? that would be a huge lb. less money than before...after all she will be losing custody. how does the foggy people explain that away?

let's deconstruct the fantasy block by block.

1)no custody
2)less money...in fact have ow and om pay dazed and dd child support
3)no respect..no joint splitting of assets...nothing...zilch.
4)no house little apartment only..

heck i like the custody issue a whole lot...let om blow his 11k from his former w by having to pay for your ww's child custody since they are such poor adult role models to your dd. that's a nice lovebuster for them to argue about.

and either a broken woman, repentant heart will return...or else you will have a clean conscience and a safe dd in a single home.....either outcome for you is positive..and for dd too.

don't forget to shift blame to attortneys..tell ww that you're tired of dealing with this and want her to have what she wants and be happy...you are so sick of dealing with this that you have TURNED IT ALL OVER TO ATTORNEYS...and she will think that the attorneys will have done this and not mr. dazed...remember, not only the ws can learn how to spin..the bs must use it too...it's a poker game with very high stakes...it's time to call bluff.

she has to see door close. no crash equals no change...equals no chance.

Actually if you do decide to do a plan b now or later, I wouldn't give her any money at all! Make your wife go to the other man for the 500/1 grand dollars. Make the relationship cost even more money. If he only has 11k then 500-1000 is anywhere between 5-9% of the total. By making the otherman pay you increase the oppertunities that he will LB! Not only is he paying for the lawyers but he is now paying her to live and what is his return? A depressed confused broken down woman! I don't think he would be happy with the return on that investment.

Dazed, in your saddness, I just wanted to remind you of what Steve said.

Hoping and praying God intervenes.

Lady

Update:
She told me tonight she filed for a divorce today. Said she is asking for nothing... Asked if she could continue to drive her car for a month of two and return it for me to restore for daughter as we had planned before her affair..
She was unclear about custody request... She started talking about it and said she would like daughter to come here every day after school like usual. I told her enough... I am not ready to discuss custody and divorce.. You know where I stand and my posistion has not changed...
She begged me to work this out with her outside of court... Begged me to not take her to trial... I told her I am just not going to discuss divorce with you tonight.

She was not angry with me at all.... She cried through a full box of puffs plus... Told me everything she is scared of and pretty much nailed everything you all have been saying... The things that are her biggest fears that you all said are it...
Dazed being with another woman...Loving her the way I am now. OW enjoying her house and using her kitchen. OW setting out her couch..
We were together for several hours tonight.. She basically said she will miss everything... Me, daughter, dog, house, me holding her and being the man of her dream like I have been... She did give me the why now stuff again. Told me that I am so much what she wanted she is still thinking she is making a mistake... She said, alot of stuff that most of you will say is manipulation... I think she is lost and hurt and scared. I told her my posistion of divorce had not changed.
She even took responsibility for the affair and fault in our marriage???????? She said, she was as much to blame as me... Said, she should have changed her approach of trying to communicate with me and reach me... Said, she was wrong for what she is doing...
This is the first time she was willing to accept any blame for this...
I am tired and not going to break down all of conversation.
She said, what if in a week or two I realize I just can't do this and I need you? I said, that is part of the risk you are taking... She says I know, thats why I am so scared. I said, I can not say what the future will bring if you go through with this... You WILL have to come to me for help... I am not going to be chasing you around. You come to me and we will just have to see... I said, WW I love you but I can not sit her and wait for you to call for me. She says, I love you too and always will...

She told me she can not take any more secrets, and lies. Living like that has been killing her. She asked me if we can both be honest with each other from now on... I said, yes... That is the only way I want to live... No secret nothings...
She said, okay... I don't want to hurt you more than I all ready have. I said, honesty never hurts as much as lies... You can tell me anything, I will just listen...
That is what i did most of the night... Let her talk... When she did the old WHY NOW, WHAT TOOK SO LONG, NOW YOU ARE EVERYTHING I WANTED... I just said, I am sorry... She said, she is now asking herself what she could have done different to reach me before all of this. Said, she did try to wake me but nothing seemed to work. Now she can see me and I have changed... She said, yes I am mad, angry, furious at times... However, I now think I should have tried something different. It is not all your fault you know. It is as much my fault at yours. She said, I am a great father, and she can see how hard I have been working. That she does not deserve me now. When she would stop for moment, I was either quiet or asked what she wanted to do or what she felt.
I just let her talk. I asked if she needed a hug, she said, yes if it is not to painful for you.
Once I gave her a hug, she could not stop crying. Several times I noticed her taking in my smell... Each time she would cry. She said, she has missed me for so long. The anger inside her kept her from allowing herself to let me back in. She said, she misses so many things about me. My gentle touch and the way I hold her and caress her hair and touch her face...That is her favorite thing... How did I learn that...There is just no way to replace that and so many other things about you. I said, WW...Who else could possible know you better than me? She says, no one. I said, Yes that is true..Thank you honey... She broke down and started bawling again... I said, I was sorry. Did not word my reply to hurt you... It's just some times I forget about everything and it feels like none of this never, (SHE FINISHED MY SENTENCE FOR ME) ever happened. She says, I know that feeling too..

She said, you know why I said, that god is not real to let me wake up every morning? It is because every night when i go to sleep I forget about everything that has happend...Also most like me and you never got lost...Especially the times you stay with me late until I do go to sleep... I wake up feeling like my old self.. Then when I can't feel you next to me, I look for you and you are not there...Then it hits me all over again and I realize my nightmare still continues.

She said she talked to a man at her work today that really made her think... She told me a story about one of her co-workers Dave... Apparently he brings his daughter into work with him on occasion and ask if WW could watch her...
WW said, she likes the little girl and it makes her think of daughter when she was little.
She said she asked Dave today about how old the kid was and apparently Dave said, after I got re-married we decided it to have a baby... WW asked so you were married once before? He said, yes for five years... WW said, did you have any kids with your first wife he says, no but when i re-married her we had this one....WW says, you re-married the same woman... Dave says, yeah... We have been re-married now for 4 years. WW says, Dazed I guess it is possible to get over the past. I said, yes... If both people want to...

I just listened to her talk, comforted her the way I know she wants... She just really wanted me to not leave her side last night.
This morning the first thing she said, Dazed am I making the biggest mistake of my life? Please hold me. When I did she pulled herself against me as tight as she could... A bear hug basically... She then started crying again... Say, OMG dazed... You are so skinny... What have I have done to you...I am so sorry for everything... Would you let me tear up the papers.. I said, Yes...WW, you have to want it... You have to want me...I am no longer going to chase you around...You know I believed if there was nothing between us that we could make a fresh start... Yes, I am ready to be happy...That is what we both want..I would not lie to you if I did not believe it... It is your choice.. you know the risk your taking... I hope you have put a lot of thought into it...

We held each quietly for 5 or 10 minutes. I got up a couple of times to make sure daughter was getting ready for school. Each time WW asked me to come back and when I did she would open her arms to enbrace me. When there was just no more time and i had to get on with getting daughter to school. She said, I wish I could just stop time and stay here with you like this... I said, there really is no reason you can't... How about we just push pause, and resume later...

I got daughter finished and off to school. I came back home to get myself ready... WW came to me and gave me a hug. I went about my business.... WW shortly there after left for work.
She came back in about 15 minutes saying her car was not working right and asked if I COULD TAKE HER TO WORK...
I quickly got on some cloths and we rushed out the door...
It was weird.. She had not even set in my truck since August. She started making conversation about her company policy against being late. Said, to not rush to get her there...Well past half way she pointed out a sign that she miss read on the way to work earlier... I laughed at her interpitation of the sign. Thinking we are 3/4 the way to your work... Why did you turn around here and go back home with a broken car... As we turned into her work parking I made a light hearted comment about her work policy.. She even laughed... Said, thank you for taking me to work and i will call you later about a ride.

I went back home... Checked her car... The temp gauge was not hot and it barely took any water to fill it... I am still trying to figure why she turn aroud 3/4 the way to work and came home to have ME take her to work... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

More later...

DAZED,


I REALLY REALLY REALLY think she is "TRAPPED" based on what she said tonight...

I would drop a line like....


you say: "Sometimes I wish we NEVER moved here..." I wish we could pack up and leave this two bit town" Half under your breath...like you're talking to yourself... WATCH for her reaction....

I think she's trapped... and MIGHT run WITH you guys if she could... might think that YOU and D wouldn't/couldn't move....because of your job... her school... whatever...

Might just be guilt for OM "making" him leave his Wife... BUT... it may be that he's violent or threatens to "tell" you everything...

That and the fact that she PROBABLY thinks that she has done SOOOO much wrong.. if you knew... you COULDN'T love or forgive her...

Talk is cheap... you MAY struggle with that if you knew... there's no way of knowing for sure..

Although, I truly believe that you could handle ANYTHING she's done because you KNOW what this is.... it's satan... it's your hurting her... it's OM playing mind games on a helpless, depressed woman that was close to a melt down when they met.... ALL THAT>... you know the TRUTH, truth....


I don't know dazed... I'm like a detective... I can usually figure out movies in the first 10 minutes.... I read people really well... and... like we said... unless she's the absolute BEST ACTRESS OF ALL TIMES... nothing else would explain tonight....

The pillow thing.. the cologne thing....all the crying the last 3 weeks....SHE STILL LOVES YOU... VERY DEEPLY... she's scared of something.... or...... the guilt from OM is too great.....

Geeze Dazed...
"She says, I love you too and always will..."

WHAT IS SHE AFRAID OF!!!!?????!!!!
ASK HER... ask her when she is really to leave... WHAT is REALLY happening....she may tell you...

Expect the demon back in the morning..... and don't react to it... she's got to fight what she feels again... but when the time is right.. ask her..

" WW we've been together for 14 years"..... "Our love has made a beautiful daughter...." PLEASE, level with me... for old times sake.." WHAT is REALLY the reason you won't at least TRY since you seem to really NOT want to leave"

She what she says.... the timing has to be right... the demon can't be around....a time like last night would be perfect...

Something just DOES NOT ADD UP..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'M PRAYING FOR YOU GUYS!!

Dazed,

Timing is critical here. Call your attorney first thing this morning (their office probably opens at 8:30 or 9). It is likely she told her attorney to file the divorce yesterday but it did not get filed yet (Even with form filings - yes we lawyers use fill in the blank forms we've developed over our years of practice, it takes a day or two to get it ready and then get to the courthouse to get it filed). Beat her to the courthouse by having your attorney file ASAP. Tell him/her time is of the essence as WW is preparing to refile and you would like to beat her to the punch if you can.

BB