I agree with Brit, don't say a word to her. All conversation over with, no agreements, no letting her know what your next plan will be.

Go for all custody, and all of the house, furnishings and all.

Go to bed. Goodnight.

It appears that no agreement today made for the biggest LB since D-Day.

She came to me this morning and told that she did not know what she is doing and is scared.
She wanted me to hold her which I did for about an hour.
I got daughter off to school and returned home. Then she asked me if I agree to everything if I stay in the house. I told her I am not sure... I don't feel right about this. She asked nicely why we can't just figure this out... She does not want to go to court. Said, this just me being selfish. I told her that I am just wanting what is best for our family. I am not confortable just making a judgement that will affect lives forever... She said, can we please just agree so we can get on with this...Why do you think you have to take my little girl away from me. It was me and her for so long... I think I was a great mom for 12 years and now you think you are going to keep her from me because I want to leave.... I said, no I do not want to keep her from you at all... Never...
She called her lawyer and asked about the papers that my lawyer has and why they were different...Her lawyer said, that I am either lying or just not understanding.
Her lawyer tells her that my lawyer wants to move for full custody and all assets... That he also wants move the hearing back a week...
WW is now very angry... Starts yelling and cursing with me about what is fair... How she was trying to be so fair, but _uck it, now its on...

She chased me around for the next twenty minutes demanding I agree to keep her out of court. I told her that I will do what is right for daughter... I asked her what is so wrong with keeping a normal home in place for daughter... WW, I just want to do what is best... If daughter wants to be here with me then why is that so wrong and my fault...

She lost it on me... Told me she hates me about 50 times... That she felt guilty for me, but not no more... She blamed me for everything... She was just furious... Hitting herself in the head with her hands, pulling her hair, and telling me she never wants to see me again, and I can just have everything and explain to daughter why her she has no mom... That this is all about me not getting my way... That I am only trying to hold her back and that I am sick for doing this to her... All I do is make her hurt and make life hard on her... She kicked me, punched me and through some things at me... She went into her closet and broke hangers and punch cloths... Yelling I hate you the entire time.
She came in and told me that there is no way she will ever work anything out with me... It's over... She never wants to see me ever again... Now I made her miss more work and drag this nightmare out another week... Why can't you just agree and get this over... There is nothing to save, you can't make me do anything so stop controlling me... That is all you do is mess with my head... I never know what is going on in your head...I finally found some one that talks to me and cares about me and I am still worried about your dumb [censored]... WHY...You were a horrible husband and deserve to be alone...I hope you will never treat another woman like you did me...

I said, I can tell he really cares about you, our daughter, and our marriage... I bet her also talked to his exwife and cared about her too...

So, I believe in being a father and caring about our little girls feelings and how much her life will be changed forever, because it will...FOREVER ... I am scared for her, I only want what is the best thing for her... She said, nope it's all about you... How do you think that only a dad is going to be best for her... No mother to a 12 year old girl is not normal... Do you want to do that to her?

I told her I am not doing nothing... I only told you my thoughts about this... You are forcing me to figure this all out for everyone... This changes lives, I need to think about this...

Her lawyer pushed everything off until next week... My lawyer says to not agree to anything I can't live with and suggested I tell them we will negociate all together.

When I got off the phone with my lawyer she asked if I agreed to shared... I said, you just told me where to stick it... He said, that we have another week... She said, you liar, you just want to drag this out.

I told her I will agree to what is the best thing for daughter. She told me she hated me and walked down stairs and got ready for work. Before leaving she came up and asked me if I was going to get up and leave for work and why was I just setting up here... I told her I need some time... She said, yeah right and left.

While I was posting this, she just walked in on me... Came back to appologize and to tell me that she does not hate me.
I barely got this post off right as she walked in... She seen the site was up on the computer...Wanted to know what i was doing on the site...
Seen my note book that I jotted down some notes about what options I have... Nothing real revealing...
Just says,
No arguments, custody options; 50-50 or shared, me staying in house. 1st right of refusal, don't bring guy around daughter, no dumping off. This is her home she should have normality. I don't want you to get the impression I am giving up on our marriage..

....
I am not sure what now... She is more than likely still thinking I am going to give in on the custody plan and I keep everything else....

p.s.--She did not harm to me.. A couple little kicks a couple slaps to my shoulder... She scratched and hit herself enough times that I not calling the police.

Did she leave any marks on you? Give this info IMMEDIATELY TO YOUR ATTY.... You may even file a police report and get a restraining order against her.

You may think I'm being a little crazy here but that's one reason that most judges won't order any type of 50/50 custody. Because it requires the parents to get along, which y'all obviously can't so then they start working down the list of factors to determine custody such as which parent will promote a relationship between the child and parent....

She then explodes into the following quote???



You should report this to the police and your attorney immediately!!!

Dazed,

Are you surprised at her actions? You shouldnt be...we warned you. Look at wht I wrote just a few days ago:
This is all typical, Dazed. She is NOT a 32 year old wife and mother right now. She is a 17 year old child that isnt getting her way!! And if she wants to act like a child, then treat her like a child. Which means no negotiations with a child.

You did not love bust. You need to understand what a love buster is (go back and read). You have and are defending boundaries and trying to save your marriage. Nothing wrong with that.

Do not agree to ANYTHING short of her ending the affair and returning home. What happened today means you will probably be going to Plan B in a matter of hours or even days. Get it prepared. Get your PBL up here ASAP so we can vet it. Then print it out this evening and prepare to give it to her.

When is the court date set?

Also, I see your wife doing one of two things. The first is running away to OM after all of this. The second is she will continue to try to stay until the court date. If she goes to OM (double check this with your attorney), then you send PBL and change the locks.

If she stays, I would probably stay in Plan A a little longer. Why? Because she will see that even though you are going for everything, you are not doing so vindictfully. That YOU are doing marriage...your attorney is doing divorce (I repeated that so many times to my wife, it was like a broken record).

Dazed, this is typical behavior for a WS. Do not beat yourself up. This is going to take time to work itself out. Do not screw up though. You have done fine up until now. Let this latest revelation sink into her. That you have counter-filed for full custody. That she will lose custody of her daughter. Let her look at the OM and see the man she is losing her daughter over. Let her wrestle with that.

You dont even have to be around for that. She is agonizing ever minute over this. Just sit back in peace and wait on the Lord. You sir, are doing just fine!!

In His arms.

The hearing was supposed to be at 9 am today...I assume it is postponed/adjourned. For one week or two???

Stay strong...Don't let her words hurt you. If she wants to stop the pain...SHE AND ONLY SHE, CAN.

I know it is incredibly hard to watch your wife hit rock bottom. You feel like you are right there with her. As emotional devastating as this is to you...STICK TO YOUR PLAN. You should be seeing the hugs and holding for what they were...an attempt to get you to play nice (sure she wanted comfort for the turmoil she is in and looked to you for it but it was all about her, her, her).

Without agreeing to anything she is likely to just walk out despite the ramnifications to her legal case. Do you have a recorder in place to make sure she doesn't try to play the trumped up physical abuse card????. Be wary. She is in a desparate condition.

Prayers,
Mr. Wondering

I second this post by mr. Wondering. Watch your back, Dazed. Record everything. Do not trust her at all. try not to be alone with her unless you have something recording it.

In His arms.

Look at the lengths she will go to -- to MANIPULATE YOU.

She's trying to intimidate you into making an agreement with her that you know is wrong.
STOP TALKING TO HER.

All of that was to try to get you to COLLABORATE WITH HER?????? Does that make any sense to you whatsoever???

Ignore everything she said, it means NOTHING. Its just another ploy to get her way. Which is still: "good mommy status, you to happily divorce her, OM to make her feel good about herself..."


I had a long long post to you before the weekend events, but lost it and didn't have the energy to re-create it.

Mostly about Frank scolding all of us for being "non-MBers". Please just remember Plan B is part of MB too.

I personally felt Steve's advice to you was questionable because of the "legal separation" stuff -- I thought he was misinformed because of what you had posted after meeting with your attorney. You clarified that later.

LostHusband is right -- it takes an extreme level of cooperation between parents for 50/50. You're not even close to being considered for that.

Please get your ducks in a row. You should have had a PI all this time to document her time away. You need SIL's testimony about the dump-offs and leaving DD in the care of teenage boys pursuing her.

Stop worrying about WW. You're far too focused on her. And you're obviously thinking that this court drama is the end of the line -- ITS FAR FROM IT! Its just a small part of the overall process. You still have a long haul -- are you preserving your feelings for her? Or are you letting all this chaos wear you down?

Can you just release her to complete this process? Emotionally detach? I am NOT suggesting that you break out Plan B right now. I'm saying you need to avoid her. These hugely emotional conversations where you are not giving her what she wants is draining your Plan A efforts.

Plan B is coming. And the idea behind it is to "go out on top" where all of your great Plan A actions are on her mind. I think you're ruining that right now. In the past week how many Plan A actions do you think she's gonna remember? These relationships talks are a HUGE DOWNER, so just because she wants a "hug", don't think they're not taking their toll on her.

here is what she is now associating with YOU:
sad/emotional/crying/fighting/screaming/nightmare

here is what she is associating with OM:
compassion/caring/desire/peace

Of course, she's going to continue down that path...

The hearing is now set up for next Monday 2:30PM

Yes, I have a week now to get through... What else could I have done about this... I did not agree... I told her what i thought.... I phrased most of all my responses about being for the family... With out giving in to her, I knew it was going to REALLY with draw from my plan A efforts... I struggled with this so much the past couple days and still not sure if I am doing right.

I think right now what happened is a huge love buster... Like Lexxxy said, a really emotional conversation where I am not giving her what she wants... Right now she has one bitter taste in her mouth for me that is for sure...

My concerns are:
1) I am going to end up pulling all of us through the mud for this custody deal including daughter.
2) If,..... and if I win the court case, daughter and WW will be very damaged and I will take the blame for it and feel responsible.
3) I may drag everyone through the mud and still end up shared custody...
Then what have I done... Alienated daughter and damaged very badly, and there would be a snow balls chance in _ell for WW and me to recover..


Lexxxy-- YOU ARE SO RIGHT... Her perception of me is not good...Hurt/Anger/Crying/Guilt/Sad/Emotional/ How can I change that at this point????? I she just gave me very little choice today for anything else, without me signing her papers...
I that OM represents that to her...
How do I change this? I really tried to change that during the period of time I have been in Plan A... I think I have done all I can do considering...

UPDATE:
WW just called me from her work for the second time...First time saying she is sorry. Then got busy and had to go.. Second call Says, I don't know what I am doing...Then someone walked up to her desk, and she said, I have to go. I said, okay call me back... She said, I can't remember when you last asked me to call you back...It's funny how things work.

Yes, pulling it back is what I have to do... Avoid angery arguments is a must... Not going to be easy, I'll tell you that.

I know that nothing ends at this divorce hearing... 60 days before it goes final, then it's still not over with us... When there is kids envolved it is never over..

Like Mortarman says, timing is key... Knowing how to proper time things the next few days and weeks is key...
I just have to avoid another inccident that wipes my Plan A clean... Today she thinks I am a fraud, that is for sure..

Dazed,

Sorry you were subject to all that venom, you do not deserve it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



I respecfully disagree. You are staying consistant on your message / mantra. You are about M / Atty's are about the D.

W is still inside of WW and she is still testing you, to see if your changes are "for real". Don't give in to the temptation to LB.

She is angry at you because you're not making this easy. She's still harboring the fantasy that it will be an amicable parting and that everybody will be friends.

She doesn't want to go to court because she knows that you have a excellent case for sole custody and that her custody case is unimpressive at best.

I'm certain that her atty has advised her that an out of court settlement would be best for WW. Her atty would realize that if the truth about his client came out it would not result in the settlement WW would want. Thus the "easy" out of court agreement that WW wants. Don't give in.

I think that the court appearences are going to blow away the "Fog". She is going to finally see the results / consequences of what she is doing. There will be no hiding from / spinning what happens in court. Just cold hard reality to face up to.

Don't forget to document what she did today. I know that it is an emotionally charged day but don't forget that she <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> BATTERED <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> you. Take pictures of the bruses if any appear.

Do you think that she is capable of these type of angry outbursts at DD? If you do, don't forget to journal it!

Keep up plan A as long as she is in the house. Prepare for plan B: get it ready but I wouldn't implement it until I had spoken with SH about it.

Again, I think that the court appearances are going to be what finally blows the fog away.

Stay Strong!

Dazed,

What you did this morning is NOT a Lovebuster. Re-read what Lovebusters are. What you did today was to protect yourself and your daughter. Now, its time to up that a notch - you are SO worried about her and what she is thinking and will think as this plays out. WHAT ABOUT YOU? WHAT ABOUT DD? I am sorry, but after having read your thread from start to finish, I believe you SHOULD fight for custody because it will be in your DD's best interest RIGHT NOW. WW may have been the best Mom in the world for 12 years, but RIGHT NOW, she is not. She is not thinking straight or looking out for DD's best interests. At least FOR RIGHT NOW, you MUST fight for custody to prevent DD from being exposed to negative behaviors and morals that she will carry forward with her for the rest of her life. Right now, DD is VERY impresssionable and if she sees WW behaving this way and is exposed to it on a full-time basis with Dad's influence only being part-time, she will begin to think this is the way women act, behave, carry on relationships. IS THAT THE LESSON YOU WANT DD TO LEARN? Do you want her to see that its okay to sleep with people outside of marriage? Do you want her to be left alone while WW goes and sleeps with OM? God forbid, if WW marries OM, do you want DD living in the same house? Do you want her being dumped off at shopping malls and movie theaters without anyone checking up on her, which will allow her to go other places (e.g., homes where there are not places) and engage in sexual behavior long before she should? DAZED, WAKE UP!!!! You need to fight this tooth and nail. If you don't, will you be able to face the man in the mirror?

BB

Dazed,

Two quick things. First, I advise you to go read up on love busters again...because counter filing for custody of your daughter is NOT a love buster. do you hear me...it is NOT a love buster. Say it with me now...it is NOT a love buster.

Second thing...I want you to remember that I have been thru what you are going thru. I had the same worries and concerns. Even the day I got primary custody of the kids, I walked away feeling I failed my marriage. How wrong I was! We are together today because i held my ground and did what was right. And none of that was an LB.

Look at the way your wife bounced back today. Saying she is sorry, then calling back again. Didnt she say the gloves were off and she wasnt going to talk to you again? HHHhhhmmmm?!?!!? Me thinks she doesnt know what the heck she is talking about!

But you do! Sure, she is still trying to manipulate you. I told you before that a WS will do ANYTHING to stop pain. She doesnt want to be in pain anymore. she wants you to give in to her addiction, so that all of you can be "happy." But she doesnt know what she is talking about.

The pain is what is going to cause her to get up and come out of the fog. Do NOT protect her from that. You continue to Plan A right now...see what she does. As I said, she will either run after the addiction (which will solidify your case with abandonment). Or she will end things with the OM. In either case, you will be okay.

Lexxxy is correct. No more whining. She is a mess. She cannot trust and rely on someone that is also a mess. If you want to cry or vent, come here. Talk to your pastor or SH. But with her, you have to be confident and consistent!

Be matter of fact in your talks with her. Continue on with your day. When she comes home after work, say "Hi, how was your day?" Go about making dinner, and helping daughter with homework. Act like life is going forward (it really is you know?). It will frustrate her. it wont make sense to her that you are being so calm and confident, after all of this.

But ask Lexxxy...if you do this, she will have to respond to it. it will make things more painful for her. She will see life leaving her behind. As with my wife, it may still have to go to court. It took the court giving me primary physical custody for my wife to fully wake up. It may take your wife that...or more.

Keep up the good fight. For you, this isnt a sprint...it is a marathon. Read Hosea in the Bible. He had to stand by and wait for his prostitute wife for 10 years. While I dont see your sitch taking that long, it will take awhile. my battle went over a good part of three years. And we are still getting our footing today. Tomorrow will be exactly one year since that court date.

In His arms.

Tell me Dazed, how is doing the right thing dragging anyone through the mud. Bringing to light facts, is not dragging anyone through anything. Having a positive outcome is absolutely the greatest thing that you can do for your daughter to remove her from this chaos, rather than continueing to allow her to wallow in it.


Your wife is damaged by her own making, not yours. However, your daughter needs your protection. If you cave and she continue's on the path where she's at now, then yes, I believe you are resposible.


Totally 100% disagree with you. You're in Kansas. Ask your lawyer how many 'Shared Custody' judgments that the judge in your case has ORDERED. I'll bet you a cup of coffee the answer is 0. Judge's around here do not order shared custody. Why? One reason is that they believe that if y'all can't agree upon shared custody then y'all do not possess the proper relationship to foster the communication that is involved in a shared custody parenting plan. If you've documented everything, as has been suggested to you, and fully informed your atty of all this stuff y'all should be going for her jugular vein. That her side would even file for shared custody tells me they don't think they have a snowballs chance in he!! of getting full custody.

I understand your fear. I understand your frustration. This truly isn't about your wife, however it is an assault on the devil that possesses her body. Maybe, just maybe, all of this will be a wake up call for her.....

Now you must do what's right and protect you and your daughter at all costs. Put your big boy undies on and deal with it.....

Dragging everyone through the mud?? Oh my goodness no! WW and OM are the mud-dwellers trying to get you and DD to slop around there with them!

You and DD are staying clear of that dirty world!

Dazed -- stop talking to her. I know you're still thinking you need every opportunity to "get-through-to-her". It won't work -- give it up. These are not Plan A opportunities, these conversations are a MINEFIELD she's trying to make you walk through! Stay out! Simply tell her that you can only discuss her offers with your attorney. Blame everything on following your attornies advice!

Memorize this:
"I've been instructed by my attorney to not discuss this with you WW"

Now she's sorry? Nope -- she's just trying every angle she can to get her way. Whatever might possibly achieve her goal (good mommy/you cooperate to end marriage/get OM) so expect tears, anger, begging, doubt, fear, bargaining, etc.

Thats why you need to stay away from the onslaught. This is what your life is going to be for the next week. You need to avoid her. Start detaching!

Dazed my friend,

The way I see it, the only "losing" position the judge could possibly impose would be a Shared Custody arrangement with wife having to move from the home. There is no way a judge would allow WW to have primary custody and the opportunity to stay in the home and expose DD to OM in your own home. So, even IF you lose next week at least the loss will be something the judge IMPOSED instead of something you AGREED to. Then when WW messes up the imposed shared custody arrangement (which she will) you will have more evidence and ability to fight when and if the final custody/divorce arrangements are made.

To summarize, you have no reason to consider agreeing, up front, to the worst thing the judge could possibly order.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - Any progress with documenting SIL's testimony by hidden tape recorder and/or signed notes from a discussion with her (you tape in case she refuses to sign but do not reveal the tape unless her testimony differs on the stand). You can get her to sign the notes from your discussion by promising that is all your attorney is asking for. Try to give her every indication your attorney said that was enough and she won't have to come to court to testify. She may need to come in next week but at least she can't change her testimony from the signed notes you took. Even your attorney spoke to you about having "proof" and your journal, by itself, is not "proof". It is only really effective if it is corroborated by other evidence.

Other corroborating evidence: Eventual testimony of DD, testimony of SIL, Phone records, shopping receipts, school teachers affidavits or testimony, daycare sign-in sheets, etc.

Read this again Dazed.

THIS is the whole thing right here. She has been doing a WONDERFUL job of working you to this point in trying to get you to make this easy...to just give in and give up and let her go about her fantasy. To become a willing participant in that fantasy. She dreams of having OM AND YOU both on hand to fulfill whatever emotional need she has at the time. Willingly. Happily.

This is NOT reality. She has NOT truly let herself understand what the emotional impacts of all of this will be to you or your DD.

Notice that she has a VERY set tactic that has been extremely effective in manipulating you to do what she wants. When the 'issue' first comes up, she gets angry. Violently angry, with you, and with herself. She attacks you, she attacks herself, she does everything she can think of to throw you emotionally off-balance. Then, VERY shortly thereafter, she comes back repentent, loving, sobbing for all of her mistakes...and she does this to touch you as 'her man'...the one who's supposed to make everything better for her.

AND IT WORKS....EVERY TIME IT HAS WORKED ON YOU

She comes back after totally running you through the mud, and asks to be held...and you do it without a moment's hesitation. She pays no price for her bad behavior. Instead, you find yourself compromising on what you KNOW is right...just so that you can keep that quiet, loving moment going.

Reread your own posts...you'll see it over and over and over...since the very beginning of this.

And she's still doing it now.

So the question is this...how are you going to change YOUR behavior so that you're no longer falling for this and making promises or agreements that you don't truly feel are in your or your DD's best interest?

Remember...you can't change others...but you can change YOURSELF...to include how you respond to others.

Now that you are aware that this is her tactic for obtaining what she wants, what's your plan to counter it?

Owl,

No need to fear...Plan B is near. Very near.

Dazed is "playing" out his final Plan A efforts. Soon she will feel the consequences of HER actions AND/OR Dazed can get some peace and move on with his life.

Mr. W

She called right before her lunch break telling me she is going to go finalize her apartment deal at lunch.
Of course she says, What if I am making the biggest mistake of my life? What if I lose you, what if I already have.

I said, okay... You know how I feel about this... I believe you are making the mistake... She says, what if I regret it? I said, that is the risk your taking. She says, you will probably find another girl and I will be making the biggest mistake of my life.
I did not say anything.... She said she is sorry for all that she did this morning and she did not mean it those things she said and did. I said, okay..

She asked me why I did not wake up sooner... Why did you not write me those letters and do the things you are doing now then? I said, WW I am sorry... You know I am here now. She said, yeah I know.

My bet is she will aske me with in 2 minutes of walking in the doors tonight if I called my laywer and agreed to 50-50. I am going to take daughter to swim team tonight and then see if I can't go see Ex-SIL...

I have already posted my PBL a while back... Go back and look at it and let me know what you think.

You know what...

She's asked repeatedly why you didn't change sooner.

My response to my wife was simple. I told her that sometimes it takes a major 'wake up call', but I DID get it. Now that she's got the kind of husband that she's wanted, it's up to HER to make the right choice. Her continuing to ask this question is an attempt to put the blame of the affair back on you...my wife did the same thing.

The next time she asks you all these 'what if's'...tell her this. Tell her that if she continues with what she's doing, she's going to find out. But if she stops now, and starts working on your marriage, she'll never have to wake up one morning thinking that she made the biggest mistake of her life!!! Let her know that the choice is hers to make...and the longer she puts this off, the harder that choice is going to be, and the harder it's going to be then to work through things.

Just my opinion here friend.

Look at it this way:

words: I'll lose you, I'll regret it, I'm sorry.

actions: finalizing apartment.