Dazed:

You are getting very good advise from these posters. They all are saying so many right things. It appears to me your wife wants you, the one she is hurting the most, to make it ok for her to leave you so she can somehow cope with this. She is not able to escape from her own conscious and it is your job to never let her escape from her own selfish actions.

Keep hanging in there and I think Mortaman has been almost in your shoes, not to dispell the other posters, but his case was so similar to yours. The key for you to to continue with the custody battle because that may be the last line in the sand.

Keep working and do not negotiate with her for anything. Fight her on every front.

TooSoon

Thanks Lexxy.

See? Analyze her words vs. her actions.

Get the PBL printed off.

Stay calm.

End on a perfect plan A.

Realize her pattern and her way of doing things. She cycles thru anger, blame, tears, and then again the same thing b/c she is trying to achieve a goal. She is trying to destroy a family. HER OWN family.

She is saying NOTHING new...turn the Ws on mute. SMile at her, nod head, and be pleasant. Be on mute. Hear nothing. Because her words are really irrelevant until she becomes a broken woman...and she's teetering close.

She may have to face a sitch like MM's wife. Mortar stood his ground. He showed her the way, she defied him and her family all the way to the courthouse, believing in the power of the fog and that the OM was offering her nothing less than true love. How sad it is...when the WS find out that the OP really offers nothing but less time with their kids? Even in a perfect sitch where they share custody (I have a bit more than my xh btw), they LOSE TIME WITH THEIR KIDS...and it will weigh on them in time. Their time together is numbered in mere days or hours. Not a forever relationship. But something that stubborn people will defend for a season...in order to do anything but FACE THEIR SIN...THEIR DEMONS.

I am so sad she is continuing ahead. I know you love your W. We want your family together. Nothing I or anybody here has said would try to keep you apart from your family btw. We want to help you get in best possible position and light to help begin your family healing. And your WW can NOT see you as a doormat anymore. The time for changing from A to B is nigh. It's time for her to see a strong and determined and loving tough dazed. Time for her to understand that you will NOT accept a WW as a role model for a young daughter...showing a young daughter THIS IS HOW A WIFE AND MOTHER BEHAVES..and it's time your WW learned she is indeed NOT seventeen years old...she cannot drop your dd off with boys...boys older and more hormonally driven...unless she desires disaster...or a future like her own past. That is the sad part. It is as if your WW is rewriting history...but recreating part of it for your dd.

It's time to break the destructive pattersn. Let WW know that this is NOT tolerated. That you do love her, you want her, but not as a WW. When she can be a contributing member to the family and marriage, she can return. But there are consequences to very stupid actions. She has to learn that. Action equals reaction. For all parties. It's not being harsh, it's being realistic.

People LEARN how to manipulate thru this. By pushing certain buttons in their loved ones, they learn they can avoid the pain felt as result of a negative choice...if they just remmeber the next time, to push the same button.

They do learn. Your WW has learned. And it may have been something she has done for many years...maybe even before you ever met her?

This is something should she decide to become a W again, that should be discussed and dealt with via IC.

Meanwhile, protect DD. Protect assets. Do not argue with WW. Be loving and kind until time to change terms. Remember that plan B is indeed loving. It is the way to preserve the love that's left before you're drained dry from the thoughtless actions and careless choices of a WS.

Good luck...were praying for your family.

Hi Dazed!! I don't post here often, but I am watching and praying.
You have done a great job, btw.

Are the lawyers telling you that you both need to make agreements between yourselves???

It seems your WW is too unreasonable to agree to anything reasonable at this point...

What would your next decision be?

What will you say when she walks in the door tonight hounding you to get her way?

Lady

Thank you all...
A breif update.. Gotta run..

WW came home righ after work.. Bawling as she walked thru the door. Came right to me before I spoke and asked for me to tell her what to do... Said, please help me. We talked for an hour and half about the option of her and I working together on our marrige... Talked about the risk of her leaving and losing me

Dazed:

Are you telling your WW that you might take her back if she leaves you. If so, she needs to know that you will likely not be around for her later if she moves out.

My wife read that these affairs sometimes only last about six months, and in her fog state mind, she thought she better only sign a six months lease in the apartment. I had to let her know that I would not wait for her to end her affair so she might as well sign a longer lease. She put down a deposit but never did sign the lease. Reality hit my wife in the head as reality is hitting your WW as well. Keep up your compassion right now but remain firm.

TooSoon

Believe none of what you hear out of a WS, and only half of what you see. This is an MB axiom.

In His arms.

I hope you got in that not only may she lose you to someone else but that you have serious doubts that you will ever even be friends with her.

1. To much pain to be friends with her
2. True friends don't walk out on me
3. True friends don't give up on me
4. If roles were reversed would she be friends with you after you walked out on her.

Mr. W

ugh...another hour and a half conversation. I soooo strongly urge to avoid these. There is nothing fun about it!

Well, I guess we'll wait to hear further updates.

Personally, I think these are a big trap for you.

I am with Lexxxy on this now. You have said everythign that needs to be said. Shoot, she is admitting you have changed. She knows all of this.

The best thing to do in this last part of Plan A is to disattach a little. How? well, instead of reading your mantra out again to her...just quickly end the conversation before it gets started with "Honey, you know what I am going to say. There is no need for me to repeat myself."

And then walk out of the room. Dont hug her in that instance (you can later as a normal part of your day and Plan A...but when she is manipulating you, she should just get the statement and then you end the conversation).

She keeps doing this because you are meeting some need of hers. So, change it up a little. And watch what happens. I guarantee her pain level will go up. Which in this case, is a good think.

In His arms.

She came to me as soon as she stepped in the door. How do I avoid that? I pretty much let her talk and i listened and comforted her. During this time I did get dinner for all of us and spent some time with daughter.
WW sought me out again wanting to talk... I did not tell her I was going to wait for her... I told her that leaving me is the risk she is taking. unless she changes directions there is little hope for us ever being together.
She ask me to help her figure out what to do about all of this. I just presented the same thing. She must make the choice to come home, take my hand and let me help her together end this pain and start our new way towards happiness. If am going to help her... I can not and will not help her in any other way. She has to stop moving in the direction she is headed in.

I suggested we both together talk with some one that knows where we stand... Someone that can understand us and help give us suggestions where we need to start fixing our marriage. I am thinking steve harley...or research a new pro-marriage councelor locally. Steve asked me to get her to speak with him as a group... He thought if she is really this conflicted and the timing is right, she may just go for it if I present this as helping me work on myself.

Once again she did most of the talking and questioning. I listened and replied where appropriate... I stayed strong and confident... She cried a river and i stood strong and kept to my consistant approach.
Some quotes of interest:
She says, He is scared that I will come home. I miss understood her... I thought she said, you are scared that i will come home... So my reply was: I am not scared at all of you coming home... I believe in you and that we will get past this. She looked at me confused and said, No HE is scared of me coming home to you... He ask me everyday now if this is going to be the day you break up with me and tell me you are going home to him....

She says that OM told her; "thanks to me, Dazed has now awakened and because of me he is now winning you back. I hate Dazed for this...He don't deserve you.
I said, I think we would have got it with out him... However, maybe he did serve as a wake up call for us... As far as winning you... You are no trophy to be won and placed on the wall... Our love is real. The way I see it everything happens for a reason... As crazy as it seems right now, all this is an oppourtunity for us to get it right and be happy together.

She said, she wants to believe in me and trust me but it is so hard because I broke her heart... I said, I am sorry WW...This is how I feel...No one knows you better than me. The guy that helped in the breaking of your heart is the only one that knows how to put back together and never let it happen again...

She told me that he tells her that he will be all alone with out her. He has changed his hole life to revolve around her every want and desire... She says, I am not so sure I like all that... I don't know if its because I never lived like that before or what... It feels odd to me.

I did not touch that one... Just let her talk.

There was a lot more she said, I mainly listened to her and asked her to tell me how she felt about things... When I told her how I felt it was the same consistant things... Showing her the path home and how she will not have to walk it alone as long as she takes my help... That we just need that starting point and we can map out our way.

She asked me what if she regrets leaving him... What if she always wonders how it could have been... What if she is still not happy enough with me to not cheat again..

I told her i felt that soon she would wake up every day happy and thankful for making the choice to stay here at home... Because we know where we went wrong and now I have the tools to meet your needs you will never have any regrets because you will be happy...This day were you are right now will be a distant memory to you.

She asked me how she will no what for sure... Will it just pop into her head and be clear on what she is to do. She keeps asking god to tell her what to do. She wants it to be clear... She says, it is just not so clear, and I am so scared I am screwing this all up... You know I am now scared that I will leave and end up with no one in the end...
I left that one alone... I felt her fishing to see If I would jump on that one..

There was more... NO TALK ABOUT DIVORCE... Only what if's about marriage.
She said, she wanted my help to get her money back on the apartment.

Okay- Owl and others have made some good observations about her behavior... Her actions of wanting me to meet needs may match her words but the big picture actions are what we are all looking at. It is both actions we measure progress with right?
Is she one step closer to out the door by the big picture actions, yes. Petetion still pending, apartment procured.
Wants me to comfort her and meet needs. Is still in negociating phase and is asking me for help about what to do... That was OM's speciality from the start of them... Some will say manipulation... I would say she is checking to see if I am still there for her and wants to make sure I am... However, it was not too long ago she did not want me there, would not confide in me, come to me for comfort, come to me for direction.
Even after this morning which apparently was not an LB... She came home to me after work wanting me to tell her what to do.
I still feel that if there was no affair and OM that we would have no problem working on the road to recovery.

Yes, you all probably say, no $hit Dazed... It's just she is not doing that... She is not working to end it.
She told me this morning... No one understands this... I said, I think I do understand what you are going through... I not going to say I now how hard but I understand... There is just no way out for you with out someone getting hurt. She said, yes... why did I do this... I should have never done this. I would never wish this on anyone... what do I do? She gave be a huge hug..
I said, This is how I feel about it... Some one will be hurt... You can't continue to try to absorb pain from both sides. Here you have a home and a family and a history...

She said, you are so nice to me and want me... repeated this about three times...
I told her we had to get ready for work... She said, why does the clock move so fast when you want to enjoy the time and it moves so slow with you don't... I said, I feel that is what is called precious moments...

We got up and got ready for work.

I am going to try to set up another call with SH.
I feel I am very near a cross roads in my marriage and approach...
The divorce hearing looming, apartment and her move out still in the works...

Here are my concerns:
Lexxxy--You are thinking I need to avoid emotional talks... I am not taking the emotion to her she is bringing it to me... Is that all wrong...
Yes, i do want to expand on what emotional needs I am meeting of hers... Right now I am security and support...I do want to expand on that to fun and peace... Any ideas how to accomplish this?

Concern 2); (MEETING HER NEEDS) I am providing convesation, security, comfort, and approval in a way that maybe working for me and against me all at the same time...
Each time she takes and another step closer to the door of leaving me or she acts out in a way that hurts me and she is scared of losing me she runs back to me for me to met those needs of hers...
Even though we had a real boundry test yesterday, my consistant Plan A is still negociating with her and making some progress... However, each time she takes that next step and gets scared it is me making it all better for her. In the big picture of things she is just inching further out of the marriage. Yes, she has taken a couple big picture steps back towards me but they have not really stuck... IE; Filed for the divorce again... Finally paid for apartment and signed six month lease... AFFAIR STILL GOING ON...

THE BIG QUESTION:::::
Is there enough of my love in her love bank to support a Dark Plan B?????
How long does one give a plan B to work to end the affair?

How does one ever know if there is enough love in bank...

I want to continue the Plan A.. That is more my style.. It is the affair that must end for her bank to ever retain my deposits... I know this... Plan A is ment to fill her love bank back up to level that will end the affair and allow love to grow... The affair is the hole in the bottom that allows the my deposits to drain out...
After a good plan A where the WS is recieveing love units and getting needs met... Plan B is ment to stop all deposits to allow the BS to retain love units and begain to heal... At the same time the WS is no longer getting love units and needs met that they were enjoying during plan A. Thus pressuring the OM to meet all the needs and the WS to now withdraw from the BS... OM has to now deal with all the pressure and WS has to turn to OM for everything including copping with withdraw from BS that they both no nothing about....

Do i have that anywhere close to right!

ONE MORE THING:
I need help polishing answer to a couple questions I believe key:
1) She keeps asking me if she is making the biggest mistake of her life... I think she is comparing answers to OM or something...
2) The why now's....
I have been feilding these but not so clear and consistant...What is the best put reponse to this..

wow wow wow,

I am praying for you Dazed. I really am. It seems that she is at a crossroads and has to make her choice. Keep up the good work.

Loni

Don’t know if it is relevant or a LB but regarding the OM having “changed his whole life to revolve around her”...

Was this really a “change” made by his free will? If I remember correctly his wife divorced him and he was fired. He did not divorce her, and he did not quit on his own accord. So all his “commitments” and “change” are reactions to what fate shoves down his throat.

His comment about “not being all alone without her”... Does this show commitment?

I point this out for several of reasons:
(1) Your WW might have some concerns she is “obligated” to OM due to his “sacrifices”.
(2) Your WW might think OM left his marriage because of her – truth OMW had enough of HIM. Same about job.
(3) The OM wants a trophy to put on the wall. He is already saying that if she doesn’t come he will find someone else. If he doesn’t get a moose-head he will mount a salmon.... You on the other hand say that if she leaves then her returning to you is not a sure thing. A world of difference. He wants pu###. You want love.

If you could get these points over to your WW without LB might give her some food for thought.

Please Dazed: Pray for sun – plan for rain.

Dazed:

Your wife coming to the crossroads in her life is the same thing that I told my FWW. I told her that the two roads will never parallel each other and will never meet again. If she chooses the OM, then she leaves her family forever as an adulteress and that choice will never enable her to redeem herself. If she stays with the family, she is able to redeem herself as a wife and mother who made a serious bad choice and mistake but chose to make every attempt to fix her mistake.

I don't think it would be bad for you to tell her you will go forward in your life and try and find someone who does not believe in infidelity and someone who will make you happier than you could ever imagine. Your wife does not want to lose you but she must know for sure that she will if she chooses the OM.

TooSoon

Bigger-Yes, you are so right... He has changed nothing out of choice other than the level of scum bag he has become...
I don't want to debate OM with her any longer... Not good...I will listen to her talk about him so i learn more about him and there relationship... Me bashing him to her is not going to get her to continue to talk... She will defend the piece of $hit..

OKAY---Please read my huge post from this morning and comment...
I HAVE A 8AM PHONE CALL WITH STEVE HARLEY... I am putting together questions to ask him... Suggestions from all of you are welcome...

TooSOON-- Great comments... We are at the crossroads for sure... Timing right now is key... Thanks Mort..

Loni-Thank you for the prayers... God Bless you..

Dazed,

I'm no expert and I don't have any advice. But I agree that the crossroads are here and very soon this could be headed full steam in one direction or another. I'm praying so hard for you that it's the right direction. I'll have to echo bigger and say hope and pray for the best, prepare for the worst. But it does sound encouraging. Keep your eye on the goal, which of course is your intact family. Good luck and take care, I know you can do this. You've been proving it for the past few weeks!

WOM

Biggest mistake? .... "I believe with all my heart that if you leave our marriage, you will always regret that decision. A big mistake, absolutely yes. The biggest of your life? I believe having an affair is your biggest mistake so far."

Why now? .... "Because my eyes have been opened. my mind has been opened. my heart has been hurting too much not to make positive changes. that's why."

This has potential to not become recieved in a positive way. She could twist those words and ask, "What happens once your heart isn't hurting anymore?"

Just a thought.

good point ...

but most of us make BIG changes when motivated by something BIG

Dazed-

It sounds to me like things are going somewhat to plan really. She's having MAJOR doubts...that's always good. I think you're doing the right thing by remaining VERY cautious about trusting her in anything she does at this point however. She's clearly NOT capable of thinking clearly.

The next time she asks you to help her get through this, tell her that you've provided her with exactly the plan she needs to get through this...all she has to do is to start working on it with you. It's been her choice all along.

I can honestly say that the relationship with OM and the EA that my wife went through was a wake up call for us...and probably it works that way for many marriages.

Hope that your call with SH goes well my friend.

Dazed --
Its inevitable that she is going to return to you. (ok? I am convinced of it! Hold onto that thought...)

But HOW do you want her to return? Thats what I think you should talk to Steve about.

She could cancel all her plans right now. Void the apartment deal. Disappoint the OM. Even agree to NC. Plan on staying home. Everyone here on MB will cheer for you.

BUT...What happens then? You have then just traded places with OM! Now her expectations of you are going to be to compensate her for everything she gave up for you!
You have a wife that will be there so you can prove yourself to her. You're still in the minefield -- because you now have to be perfect. Any argument or problem will have her running back to OM.

Its a dangerous set-up for a false recovery. Because you think you've won. Even if she agrees to end the affair and stay home, you have a long road to go!

Ask MM -- it wasn't very long ago that he really felt like he's gotten the deeply felt apology he was due.

I think its really important for you (with Steve's guidance) to gauge her reasons. And she has a lot of work to do in healing herself.

In some ways, this may go faster if she really does leave and discover that OM was not all she dreamed about. Otherwise you're living with that image of perfection to be measured against.

She needs to be repentent and most of all committed to your marriage. She's not there yet, even though you're hearing things you desparately want to hear.

HOW and WHY she comes back is more important than just simply having her in the house.