Fog translation:

Dazed, Please do NOT take me to court ...(trans: I am scared poo=less of it)..Let's work together to avoid it (Please Enable me again so I can do the WS bounce for a while longer).

I am afraid the judge will call me a slut or a ho and a bad mom (THAT IS HOW I AM BEHAVING NOW...DON'T WANT TO DIRTY MY LITTLE NAME).

IF we go to court, I am afraid my attny will have to bring up how you were a bad dad/H, the porn site on the computer I found, and the supposed affair you had at work five years ago (ALAS, I AM REACHING FOR STRAWS BUT N0T BELOW ME TO GO BELOW THE BELT...DESPERATE PEOPLE LEGALLY DO THIS. I WILL TRY TO BRING YOU DOWN TO MY LEVEL DAZED!)

That is what she is saying.

She wants to be enabled. You are not about that.

Warning dazed...ww may be trying to turn the custody tables around on you!

she may now be trying to show that you are calling mommy names and that dd is having these head aches/stomach problems/bad grades because of the stress YOU are putting her under.

I mean my god woman! She is no mom acting like this. She is blaming the very person holding her family together by threads now...YOU for the problems SHE created.

Just watch...

I am sending a gentle warning about her...why? My xh tried same tactics. The spin and blame. It's famous. My divorce laywers said that he was good at it, but the truth can make the spin spin right back on the WS.

Please be congizant that she may be taping convo's with dd...I would NOT put it past a vengeful WS to try to get dd in court also.

Again, court is NOTHING to fear. But having lies presented as truths without standing up to them is something worries are founded on.

Just keep list of facts.

Get dd into IC as well with a PRO MARRIAGE AND FAMILY COUNSELOR...MAYBE A CHRISTIAN ONE? One that will stand up for your stance on family...and see how damaging and be able to document legally as per the courts how WW is damaging your dd..

WW is really hurting the child. I am so sorry you are going thru this. Please keep dd away from her now. She is NOT in her right mind, the WW. She is very very abusive emotionally to dd and to YOU!

In my time as a WW, my judgement and priorities were TOTALLY out of whack!!! I knew it then, and I know it now looking back.

She KNOWS its better for daughter to be with you. She just doesn't want the world to know it. She's still trying to keep her reputation. She will come to accept that she's not the "image" she's trying to show the world....eventually.

You MUST continue with full custody.

Just to warn you, its going to get worse before it gets better! Thats why you need to avoid her until court. She is going to try EVERY trick and manipulation she can. She is going to spew the most awful venom -- trying to break you. You have to stay strong (and I think stay away...)

She is simply paralyzed right now. She can't make a choice. She can't live with the consequences of leaving you and DD. She can't live with the guilt of leaving OM. She trying to break you. So that you will be the one to give up and push her away. It absolves her of the decision -- because you will make it for her.

She's being equally weird with him. At this point she probably can't understand why either one of you want her.

oh gosh -- I was working on that post while you were posting. I just read your update.

You are being a super dad, dazed. Take that as a compliment.

She KNOWS how bad she is screwing up.

I don't know if others will agree but I am going to throw this out there anyway. She may, strike that, she will panic more about Monday's hearing tomorrow and over the weekend. An alternate response to "let the lawyers handle divorce" which you can only repeat the first 20 times may be "well dear, it's YOUR divorce/custody petition, you can always withdraw it again".

Hear me out. If she does withdraw her petition again then you have the following advantages:

1. She is still at home, for now;
2. OM will become even more insecure, angry, hurt, desparate;
3. OM will LB;
4. WW will probably give up filing and concede custody and move out thus abandoning DD to your care to which you will always be assured custody should another divorce petition ever be filed;
5. Even Harley says Plan B is difficult with divorce case pending so I presume that means your plan B will be more effective without the pending divorce petition;
6. Her custody case is never going to get better as long as she remains on the fence...she is just to fogged out to manipulate the situation;
7. You avoid throwing out your legitimate claims for custody and having some crazy judge rule against you;
8. The custody hearing will necessarily include some serious Love Busters;
9. You may (begrudgingly) get the opportunity to continue your plan A at least through the holidays at least for the benefit of DD.

I will emphasize you are not to ask her to withdraw the petition ONLY that she has the ability to if that is what she chooses to do. Thus, if she goes through with it and it is brutal she can be clear it is a consequence of her choices.

I would also like to add my prayers to Dazed, DD and MRS. DAZED. Yes, Mrs. Dazed too. She knows not what she is doing and if Dazed loves her than so do I, with my advice, to save HER from the horrible choices she is making (or failing to actually make) and save her marriage as well.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

I am going to add this...

There is NO LBING when it comes to custody or hearings or whatnot.

It is simply facts that are being stated. Facts. When things move to the judicial realm, this is what is needed.

Am also praying too for Mrs. D. But Mrs. D is acting imho, abusively to dd and to her H. She is inflicting MUCH damage to that little girl...the child is being tossed out, tossed into the hands of teenage boys. She has been treated horribly. And now there is issues regarding her performance at school/health problems as a result of her mom's horrid behavior.

If this woman is allowed to continue, it will cause SERIOUS emotional harm to this child...more so than already as of now.

Again, court is not an arena where we are concerned with LBing. It is simply a statement of the facts.

Now if Mrs. D tries to go to court IMPLYING WITHOUT CONCRETE PROOF the allegations she has mentioned such as visitation of a porn site, affair at work five years earlier, being bad dad, etc... THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED MORE OF A LB...why? IT IS NOT FACT. Can not be legally established thru proponderence of evidence. It is heresay.

To me, that would be a LB. Not saying the absolute truth. And that truth is the following:
1)W is having a longstanding affair with a MM who divorced his wife...two families broken as result
2)W has neglected her duties as a W. She is not there for her family.
3)W has been emotionally and at times physically abusive
4)W has neglected her duties as a mother. Dropping dd supposedly during her "mom" time with DD to her SIL...and having testimony showing that dd was NEVEr with SIL...was instead knowingly dropped off and handed over to hormonally charged teenage boys. Also W 's yelling, trauma in family home leading to emotional problems with dd at school and now with health.
5)W has been imho, mentally incapacitated...thru the mentioning on a regular basis of suicide...using horrible manipulative techniques to get her way to get out door with OM. Will lie, cheat, cry, and hit! yes HIT! if she cannot get her way to have her affair time with OM.
6)W has emotionally abandoned the M. She is coming and going as she pleases, openly going out for dates and trysts with OM.

It is a slam dunk. These issues are simply the truth. Facts. It is what it is. Anything less is simply padding the truth...giving in to a person who does NOT need to be further enabled at any juncture.

It is critical this WW is NOT enabled anymore. Her behavior is escalating. Just look at her behavior over last few days...screaming, crying, pulling her hair, hitting H, and doing all this under the same roof as dd...

QUICK UPDATE:
WW confessed this morning.... OM has given her the final move out date...
She claims that he got really angery with her this week... Very very mad at her and told her to just leave him alone and go back home to him... He told her that if she did not stop lieing to him and do what she said she was going to do to never come back... If she was not moved out by Friday night that he was never going to talk to her again.... She said, he told her she can't make a decision on her own and he must do all her thinking for her and he was very angry and yelling at her for dragging her feet...
She told me that she was lieing to him and telling him that she was staying for daughter, when really she was staying because she is scared and not sure what she is doing... She has been telling him this for months now and he is tired of it and don't believe her any more... She said, that he can't take another word about me... Just the other night at his place she started to cry and told him that she still loved me and that part of her always well and asked him to understand that and he got so mad that he made her leave...
He told her that she can't have both of us and she should just go back home and stay there..

She promised him that she would move out by Friday night... She said, he is calling her at work all day long asking if she is packing her bags and to promise him that this time it is not a lie...

She said, For her the timer has run out... She said, all the signs tell her to stay with me and work this out... She has made so many promises what is she to do...

She said, she has tried to pack a bag all week and she just breaks down and can't do it... She keeps telling herself all the bad stuff about me to make it easy on her... Then she closes her eyes and see's me standing there and she feels so sad and ask herself what is she doing...

She said, that her new IC told her to that I am only in despration mode and her experience is that no man changes like you say your husband has... He will not last... She incouraged WW to move out and it will get easier for her to forget about me being sad with out her...

She said she had made her bed and now must ly in it... I don't deserve to be treated this way... She kept asking what was wrong with her head... Why can't she make her mind up...

She said, that she wanted me to know that she loves me... That she is a liar and a bad person...

She said, she has been dragging her feet...She said, she was using the broken car as an excuse to not go see him.. She said that she did lie about the car breaking last week just so she did not have to leave... She wanted to just stay home....

She told me that instead of moving out she might just kill herself....

I even heard her saying to herself in the bathroom there is no place like home over and over....

I am worried about her safety.....

You should be worried about her safety. Keep an eye out on that. It is crazy for her right now.

On a good note, the OM is LBing all over the place! He is not helping his position...he is pushing your wife back home, although he thinks he is pressuring her to come.

That IC has to go!! That is a horrible counselor and should lose his/her license. When she mentions that IC again, calmly say that your wife should go see another IC to get a second opinion (and dont get a reference from THAT IC). That the IC she is seeing is way off base, doesnt know what she is talking about...and that your wife should see another counselor for a second opinion so that she can see that.

Dazed, the whole thing is coming apart. You see, even if she packs her bag and goes to him, he cant meet her needs. She will go there and do nothign but cry. He doesnt want to hear that stuff. He doesnt want to deal with you everyday. She will anger him everyday. That is a BEAUTIFUL thing!!!

Stay on course, be the rock. No LBs right now (please go re-read what an LB is!!). Let the OM do ALL of the LBing.

No negotiations either. Let her world continue to collapse around her and on her.

You are near the end of this ordeal Dazed. Hang tough!

In His arms.

Dazed I wonder about this....her lawyer has probably advised her not to go anywhere. She is not going anywhere I believe, until after court, if she does go.


Does her IC know that she talks like that?

Lady

For some reason Dazed I think she is playing...biding time before court!!!

If she were to move out right now before court, it would show she has abandoned the family especially DD, that would not go well for her in court. So she is holding out until then.

When she goes to court she will show she has obtained an Apt. but has not moved out yet, therefore making it look better for her. She will show that she has a two bedroom Apt, one for her and a room for DD.

She has a strategy...

Lady

MM is dead on the money (as usual!).

This is a GOOD thing...she said herself that all of the signs are telling her to stay. It sounds like she's not done any packing or anything yet...so that means that she's really not ready or willing to leave yet.

MM is right with the IC thing...I personally would ask her to talk with someone who knows about AFFAIRS...someone who specializes in helping people dealing with that specific kind of trauma...someone who has experience in seeing both sides of an affair...hers and yours. Someone who has EXPERIENCE in seeing how people can and do change as a result of the affair.

And I would NOT negotiate with her on this deadline. Tell her very clearly and lovingly that this is HER choice to make...not yours, not OM's. HERS. And it's obvious that she's got to do so NOW.

Make it clear to her that you DO LOVE HER...that you have changed...like MM said...NO LB's today!!! Be there for her...and make it clear to her that you ARE changed and want her and love her...but if she leaves, that's her choice and her consequences. If she stays, you're willing to do whatever it takes to work through things...but if she goes, that's her choice and that's it.

I had EXACTLY this discussion with my wife...ON THE DAY SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO FLY AWAY AND LIVE WITH OM...she was down to the wire...and she too couldn't make her choice. And guess what...OM called while I was talking with her in her motel room...blew his mind that I was there...and he got angry...told her not to come...told her to 'forget about it'. Which was a big thing...they had this whole 'remember me' thing going...so telling her to forget it was a HUGE LB on his part...

She cried her eyes out, got dressed, got in the van with me, and came home. REAL withdrawl started that weekend...but that day...that MOMENT...was the beginning of the end for the affair.

You're at this same cusp now it sounds like...time to make it CLEAR how much you love her...what she's giving up if she chooses him. And be with her...take today off from work and go home and be with her...so she knows that you care...that's what I did at least.

Rule #1 in the '20 rules and tools' book I quote all the time...MAKE YOUR SPOUSE YOUR #1 PRIORITY...time to let her see that today. And make it clear that you too expect a choice...today. Be loving, be there for her...but make it clear that this ends today...one way or another.

“””Bill-
Hey neighbor...Thanks for the invite...can you put your email address up briefly so i can contact you?...I believe salina has a couple good coffee shops.”””

Send an e-mail to this address wbill70@yahoo.com I actually don’t check it that often but I will until I hear from you and then I’ll give you a different address….

”””I called daughter to make sure she is okay... Also, just called and set up an appointment with an IC for daughter and myself...”””

AWESOME…….

”””If she was not moved out by Friday night that he was never going to talk to her again....”””

Well ain’t that just sweet of her shining knight….

“””She told me that instead of moving out she might just kill herself....”””

You heard her say that…. Call a suicide hotline or the police…. You may think I’m joking, I’m not. DO IT…. DO IT NOW…. KEEP YOUR DAUGHTER SAFE AND DO IT… SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TODAY, either she’s moving, staying, or dieing……

Greetings dazednconfusedks. I've been lurking and silently cheering for you. Sounds like you're about to get a breakthrough. Prayers and best wishes for you, from a former Kansan (relatives in Salina).

A friend of mine well schooled in the MB concept has spoke with her last night and again this morning...
She really vented on him last night about our past... She was aware I was on the phone so it was hard to say just how angry she was combined with grand standing... My friend performed like a master defending marriage and MB values... He was able to educate her where as I can not.... She was very angry towards me on the phone but spoke with him for atleast 30 to 45 minutes...

She told me this morning she was angry about me being on the phone and her having to wait to talk to me... Then she overheard me talking about our relationship problems with him and she got very angry about it...

This morning my friend contacted her at work to chat with out me listening... They talked for another 20 minutes... It sounds like she was again venting about all the hurt that i have caused in our marriage... She did tell him that she still loves me and probably always will....
My friend asked about OM pushing her and talked about what she would do if she were just dating and she was single and he started controlling her like this and pushing... Would she like that or think is was healthy for her... She said, no...

My friend is a good Christian man and believes in marriage... He helped remind her that she can not make everyone happy and someone will be hurt by her descision... If she goes she hurts two, if she stays she hurts one... If she goes one of the two she hurts is her husband which might not mean much now, but the other person hurt would be her daughter...

Also, informed her that true love does not have time limits... If there love is really ment and god believes in them two being together, then it will be there... Love is everlasting and what she is feeling is an addiction to a feeling more so than the man...
If his love for her was unconditional and true he would wait for things to happen with out pushing and make it work out right.

God Bless my friend.... You are doing the lords work!!!!

It is weird how the lord works... I was only talking to my friend to comfort me and help me work these issues out in my head... WW overheard part of phone call... I was telling my friend about OM's and how his ex-wife talked about him... WW heard part of this and got mad enough to just go pick up another phone and ask to join in.... All be it that she was very angry at that point, my friend was on point for the entire conversation... Everytime she started to get off track with bashing me he would bring her back to consoling, confirming, and informing...

He a near perfect response to save our marriage for every angle she tried to play to justify her posistion for leaving the marriage....

I take it that her coming to me this morning and her willing to talk to my friend for 20 minutes while at work today was a good sign...

I am a bit afraid to contact her right now... She just got off her lunch break... COUNT ON CONTACT... I have already dropped her an email offring support... Do I call her or just leave her be....

I had also planned on spending the evening at the race car shop preparing a replacement engine for her car... I told her all week i was going to do this... Do I back out on this now just to stay home...

Court is Monday afternoon... I would be in shock if she left the house tonight... Unless she is assuming that I will continue for full custody and she is conceeding that fact...

Thanks Bill... I got your info...
Also, thanks WNH...

Dazed,

Given what her IC is telling her (I agree with others, this person should NOT be practicing counseling), go back and read what I posted to you about you having changed. You have not changed very much at all, what has changed is your perspective AND your ability to express and show your emotions and feelings...that you learned because of the A. You did NOT start to love her because she had an A, that is just stupid. You always loved her, in that you have NOT changed at all.

Her fears of you changing back are not valid because you cannot go back, you have learned too much. The change she needs to fear is if you do lose your love for her.

Talk to her about your 'apparent' changes, and show her they are simply changes in perspective coupled with new knowledge in how to express your feelings and new sensitivity to how she wants you to deal with her.

God Bless,

JL

ONE MORE THING:::

I love my wife with all my heart... I wish for nothing short of a story book ending for us that will take a life time to complete...

What I am doing here at MB is to improve myself that i hope and pray for the strength and wisdom from support of god that i can change for the good, forever.....

I am now afraid if WW finds my post she will not understand it... Will not see it as a man trying to work hard on himself and his marrige....

I do not want to lie to her... I have done too much of that over the years... Most of my lies was done to protect her feelings... Most of time I have stretched the truth was to prevent her from becoming angry with me... This almost always backfired... She never understood why I did this kind of stuff... This hurts her today to think about how I did not tell her everything...

Again, I am here thinking about how she would react to finding my post... I am of the opinion she will not understand it... See it all wrong and think I am a fraud and not really loving...
She is most likely now viewing MB and probably looking for my post...
I am scared she will not see it as a man in the fight of his life to change himself into what he always should have been and still in love with his hurting wife and trying to all at the same time save his family...

Any ideas's....

I think you should stick to your plan of working on her engine. I think you need to stay out of her line of fire.

She's so on edge right now, that you will be the primary target.

The activity you have planned for tonight is so perfect -- its a Plan A deposit for her, gets you away from the venom, and gets you away from her if she's planning on packing and moving.

You haven't shared much of your court plans. If you think she's reading her I understand your silence. But I'm realy curious about whether you've got SIL on your team, or any documentation or PI backup.

Thank God for your friend! That was really awesome! He can talk to her in a way that you can't without LB'ing. Really great!

She's got plenty of pressure on her right now from OM and her internal conflict. I think you should wait to call but be very concerned for her safety. A call at the end of the workday would be in order. She is hitting rock bottom and OM is really the one PUSHING her there. Be sure to indicate that no matter what happens suicidal thoughts offer no solution...suicide goes way beyond the hurt that anyone will incur in this whole ordeal. No matter what happens the pain and hurt you are all feeling today in no way compares to the lifetime of devasatation to you and DD if she were to take her own life.

I am no suicide counselor and it is quite common for the WW to threaten and become preoccupied with suicidal thoughts. My wife considered too. I have no idea how many follow through BUT no matter how remote the threats may seem any chance she may follow through must be followed up with immediately for everybodies sake, regardless of the affair, divorce, and custody proceeding. This is all sooooo not worth dying over.

Mr. Wondering

I think that I would postpone working on her car tonite...I'd be there for her so that she knew I loved and cared for her. I'd want her to know that SHE was my priority...that I had more concern for her than her car.

Bluntly, I'd also be there so that if she DID decide to move out tonite, she'd have to do so with me right there...because from what you've described of your wife, I'm not sure she'd have the will to do it right in front of you...thereby she misses OM's deadline by default. Again, the idea is to NOT to make it easy for her to choose to leave...quite the opposite in fact.

I'd also be there because she doesn't sound like she's safe to leave by herself right now either.

Praying for you right now my friend!

I wouldn't worry about your WW reading your thread. You are doing a noble thing, and it shows here. It's clear that you love her and want the best for her, you, and your family. Have no fears, and take a look at John 8:32.