Dazed:

A time will come when you will see, and most importantly, feel that your WW is coming back to you completely. You are a ways from it yet. She must commit to walking away from the volatile OM and she must go through the painful withdrawal stage from the OM. If he becomes mean, it might be easier for her to walk from him. It is obvious that he pulls and manipulates her when he feels her straying back to you and her daughter. He is a destroyer of life's values. The piece he is struggling with and is havinhg a hard time overcoming is the history of the marriage, the loss of the family for your WW, and the fact that deep down inside, she still loves you. He is not bigger than these facts and he knows it is not going well.

Let your MIL contact the OM's family. That is part of exposure and having all outsiders pressuring the players and lovers. The OM is trying to win with trickery, lies, abuse, threats, and false promises and this relationship is already dead on arrival. The flowers and the great Plan A will make you the obvious choice to come back too so keep it up. Win her over with love and the Grace of God.

One of this things I stressed to my wife during her Y in the road, was the fact if she comes back to the family and breaks her relationship with the OM, she can totally redeem herself as a wife and mother. If she chooses to leave me and the kids for the OM, she leaves as an adulterous wife and mother who walked from her kids and her husband for an affair built on lies and deceit. Your wife is worried about being named as an adulterous so let her know that she can undo the damage with her making an effort and coming home and staying home where she belongs.

She can't undo the damage by staying away and with the OM. She cannot move on to a new OM post divorce and fix it. She will reach a point where it can nver be repaired no matter what she does. She will suffer terribly away from the family and the DD on Christmas and she will likely have a mental breakdown from stress, exhaustion, and then more pressure for her to be happy from her loverman. Dr. H points out that WS's cannot escape their own conscious....ever.

I am really sorry that this pain never ends for you but my experience tells me it is turning your way but not without many more bumps in the road. When things seem so hopeless, they can turn quick in your favor, even overnight. Please keep us posted.

TooSoon

I would be careful about putting DD's name on the card - your WW (and her lawyer) could interpret that to be "in your face" or nanny nanny booboo I got custody....

BB

Dazed;
it may feel like the end to you -- but really this is the true start of getting her back.
She will see OM's true colors. They won't even have a "honeymoon" phase because your wife is hurting so badly right now. She is going to expect OM to compensate her for her pain. She is going to expect an enormous amount of compassion and empathy for what she has given up for him. And what is his reaction going to be? Anger, when she needs him to listen. Anger, when she needs to talk. He's going to belittle her needs. Thats not going to go well.

Have you ever read Mars/Venus? We women, have a great need to talk and share our problems. Men go immediately into fix-it mode. He's going to shut down or try to solve her problem -- which he is in no way capable of doing. He's not going to let her talk for two hours about her concerns (guess who did? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

You now represent the end of her pain. You will now represent the solutions. But she has to be away from you to come to appreciate it. Thats where your detachment come in. I do NOT suggest Plan B right now. But I do suggest a stellar Plan A, but in smaller doses. Become less available, but when you do interact, keep to your Plan A actions!

How did the restraining order go? I sincerely hope it includes DD so that they can have no visitation together.

Stay strong!

Dazed,

Everyone is right, you have taken your first major step in recoverying your marriage. Congratulations. I know it does not feel like it but listen to everyone. Send the flowers, but mostly take very very good care of your daughter.

You also said way back
Dazed, given the presence of OM, you must have full custody, but with full custody you have the opportunity to allow your W to see her daughter as much as possible. I would strongly recommend that it be at YOUR home, and never at her apartment with OM.

I think MIL or someone mentioned that he wanted her to lose custody. I think that is pretty much a given. He cannot control her if she is focused on someone else: you, her daughter, whatever. As you know and she will find out he is not interested in what is good for her.

So steady as she goes, especially in this time of year. Send the flowers, treat your daughter well, and make sure that your W and daughter meet at your home for right now. You need to be pretty careful right now until the situation changes.

Hang in there, you are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

Happy Birthday...Mrs. Daze
May your days with OM be short and gray

We're all praying 33 is the year
you reconcile your marriage so we all can cheer

I know all seems lost and you've no idea what to do
I promise it will be better when you realize the poor choices you made at 32

I'm sorry the judge said "WW...you can't trick us"
It must really suck to have a birthday so close to Christmas

As the new year approachs, may I suggest a resolution
A comittment to your family and marital reconstitution

Mr. Wondering

*A poet...I am not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That was great MrW!!!! LOL

Update:
WW called last night to talk to daughter while she was at swim... She did not want to talk at all other than to daughter.

I let daughter call her back after practice... WW asked about doing something with her the next evening... Then WW went below the belt... Told daughter that we have to give the dog back to MIL because she asked for it back.... Daughter got upset and hurt... Daughter ended the phone call with WW at that point.

I told daughter that grandma IS NOT taking our doggy... Grandma is very upset with you mom and she thaught that if your mom took our doggy with her she was going to go retrieve her for you.... Don't worry... No one is taking doggy...

WW called back about 9:45PM.. Asked to talk to daughter... I told her that was pretty low to tell daughter that grandma was taking the dog back... She said, well that's what she told me...
She asked me what time daughter would be available tomorrow night... I told her that daughter has plans in the early evening until 6:30PM... Then you can come over... WW got mad... Said, crap about how I make all the rules...

I let her speak to daughter as I monitored... Told her she loves her very much and she will see her soon...
WW asked some pointed questions to daughter that i did not appreciate... Asked her where she was sleeping at...If daddy was tucking her in at night... I know where she was going with that... Seeing if daughter was sleeping beside me for security.. Of course I tuck my daughter in at night... Some times I set on the bed with her and we talk about what ever is going on in daughters life...Do not sleep beside her..

Daughter was friendly with her but not very long on words with her...

WW called me back about fifteen minutes later... Now angry with me... Telling me about how unfair I am and how she is sleeping on the floor of an apartment with only a blanket.. No couch, bed, tv, lamps, tables, nothing...
I guess I kind of LB on a small scale... I asked her why she was in the apartment... She accused me of taking her daughter away and how dare I do that and how the 12 years she put in was just thrown down the drain... She was really angry with me.
She is REALLY MAD at me... She said my lawyer lied in court and that is the only reason how I pulled this off.... My lawyer is a liar and I did not to correct him... She said, you told the courts that I have not lived there for four months... You are a liar... She babbled on and on about how I am the bad guy and he is the victim...

I screwed up and defended my self... I told her that i was not attacking or punishing her... It is the ulitmatum man that I can not trust... She said, well he would not even be around when daughter was here... I said, I can not trust him... based on the stalking, that sadistic phone call he pulled saturday, watching our home to see when lights go off and making you tell him where we sleep and when we went to sleep... To me this is not normal or safe for our daughter... This does not discount the 12 years of being the worlds greatest mom.... It is now and the future that I am worried about...

I should have stopped there... She of course started defending him... I asked her if she had stopped to think about why he wanted her out of the house so badly before the court date.... Do you think was in best interest of your court case? Just maybe he did not care if you lost daughter in court?
Yeah, I know I am not suppose to say that stuff... However I did... WW was very quiet... She was ready to end the phone call...

WW called twice early this morning...Asked again if it would be okay for her to do something with daughter tonight and asked if I would make a schedule of when she can see daughter for the remainder of the holidays... I asked her to tell me when she wants to come over...She got mad at me.

The second call WW was angry and started in on me about not getting daughter to school on time and doing anything on time... She told me she had no car to come get daughter tonight so things might not happen... I suggested she let me fix the car like planned... The new engine is finished and ready to install... She said, no her brother is going to fix it and it is there now.. Again she complained about me taking everything and how she was stupid and asked to be fair with me and I just lied in court and took it all..

She by now was very angry with me and was blaming me for everything in her life that is wrong... VERY ANGRY AND HATEFUL....

She called back and fourth about five more times... Each time getting meaner and more hateful... Daughter was not feeling good... Daughter was already not feeling well and the constant phone ringing really upset her... She asked me to shut off the ringers..

Each time I spoke with WW she got worse to talk with... She was so mad... She said, she wants her stuff from house tonight and half the furniture... She wants all our assets sold now so she can get money now... She told me that she wants the house sold she I have to live in an apartment just like her... Gave me ****** about being a super dad and said, joking "Let me guess you are rearranging your life our daughter"... I said, yes I am, and looking forward to it... That pissed off WW...

Again, she got me worked up... Told me if I was any kind of husband she would not have had to find another man...
She called me a liar about the four months thing... I asked her if her lawyer had said, all the truth...
So, I just did not let her crap blow on by me...
I am tired of the entire deal right now... I was weak and let her babble get to me... I did not get angry with her or yell and curse, but a lot of my cross babble was not productive because even though it was the truth, I was educational... So hard for me to not be... I guess I am one of those people that educate others... Maybe need to look at that part of myself when dealing with others and making friends...

MIL called me just before lunch... She said, she talked to WW... MIL told WW to go home... WW told her that she hates me and wished i would die... MIL was upset by that... I told MIL that she is just venting on you and me and all of us... She is angry because of her own actions have made her miserable... She needs us to vent her anger on.. MIL said, she hoped I was right... MIL said, she offered to come over to the house and help me with daughter and keeping the home running... That pissed off WW... She told her to have fun and to never call her again... I told MIL that you know WW... She is very very stubborn any way... Add the fact she is hurting, angry, and now the opposite of happy that she thinks is going to happen... Let her calm down... I still think she will wake up... MIL says, I hope so... I can't believe any kid of mine would leave her baby for some puke.

MIL said, she told WW that the grass is never greener and when you go looking it is usually all burnt up... WW, go home for your daughters sake and give Dazed a chance... WW told MIL... No thank you... I lived it once before, not again.

MIL was very sad because WW will not take her advice... MIL has always been very blunt in her presentation and delivery... So I am sure that MIL probably threw in several other pressure tacts on WW that are not going to help... Atleast MIL did not say she had talked to me as I has asked... I explained that you pushing her to me is not going to make her come to me... NO TEAM WORK... I suggested when she pushed her it was for the good of daughter and then our marriage... Not for Dazed.... She will run from that big time... MIL agreed... MIL still wants some one to kick OM's [censored]... She told me too dam bad this was not like the old days... You could go over to his work and wait for him in the parking lot... Punch his lights out and tell him how it is going to be... Then go home and calmly tell your wife that you spoke to OM and he is not going to bother you any longer...

Okay--- I am running short on time....

I sent WW 33 white and red long stem roses... 163 dollars worth... I wrote a short card myself... To sum it up: I wrote her I still believed in us and that I still loved her...
Love always
Dazed...
NO HAPPY BIRTHDAY STUFF FROM ME...

I picked out a plant for daughter to send her separately from my roses.

The plant is very pretty and should last several months...
The put as small note from daughter that read: Happy birthday mommy... Love daughter

WW called me back write after they delivered... Her voice was now calm and humble...
She said, I got your flowers....guess you bought these before today huh... I said, last night me and daughter picked them out.... She said, you should not have wasted your money... Should have just paid the lawyer with it... You know flowers don't last long... You should not have sent them...
I asked if she wanted to meet me at home to get a bed for her sleep on... She said, no... I don't want anything anymore... I will just figure it out on my own..
We had a very quiet calm phone call... The flowers was a good thing for her...

She was so mad earlier.... She was demanding furnishings tonight and sales of all assets for money....
Me offereing furnishings to her made her decline them..

No furnishings, no money, that's all figured out by the courts as a part of the divorce SHE wants. What happened to the restraining order, did you get it done? If so, be prepared if she goes to visit her mom to have it enforced.....

For your own sanity, stop answering the phone everytime she calls. Do not engage in arguements, I know easier said than done.....

There is something from one of your posts that I wanted to address off the boards, I do feel it's important, if you get some time please e-mail me.......

Dazed,

You did okay. Yeah, she baited you a little. But you did recover well...and hey, none of us are perfect.

You know something? My wife, to this day, still says I got custody because I lied in court (of course, I didnt!). I had to laugh when I saw your wife saying the same stuff. Just goes to show that this stuff is all the same and WSs almost always act the same.

You did good with MIL also. I think she needs to back off your wife for awhile. Your wife just needs to be alone, to let this sink in. Any pressure to come home will just make her go further away. Why not, (in her mind) she has already lost everything!

Instead, just have MIL cool it for a little while. Not so much talk abotu going home and stuff. Or beating up on OM (although I did like you bringing up the fact that he probably didnt want your wife to get custody...she is going to chew on that one for awhile).

I would hate to be the OM when a WW wakes up, looks at him, and realizes he is the reason she has lost her children. That she gave up her children for him. That will be a show to remember...too bad you couldnt be there to watch that, Dazed!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are doing fine. As I said, let this thing settle down for a few days. Maybe until after the hearing in January. Just listen to her. Of course, you can talk...keep repeating your mantra. Of course you can defend the truth without being defensive.

If she wants stuff out of the house and it sold, tell her that you will have to wait for the judge to order that (of course, that wont happen for months!!). You have no reason to change anything right now.

You did say that you are growing tired of this. That statement tells me that now that the custody issue is settled, you are starting to get tired...to lose love for your wife. Natural. So, as we have told you, Plan B is probably very close! As things settle down in your home, you are just not going to want to go back into her mess. You will feel yourself wanting to talk or be around her less and less.

When you get to the right point, we will help you jump to Plan B. So, just hang out a little longer, keep Plan Aing when you can, do nto enable your wife...and most importantly, take care of YOU and YOUR DAUGHTER!

I think Lexxxy can help with this next statement I am going to make, since she was a WW. But deep down, inside the fog...your wife respects you!! Your changes have earned her respect. You fighting for your family has earned her respect. You fighting to protect your daughter has earned her respect. She doesnt WANT to respect you...but she really has no choice. She sees a man doing the right things, going the extra mile for her and for her daughter.

When the fog clears, what you have done will firmly sink in and you will eventually have a woman more in love with you than she was in the beginning. it is one of the things you can tell her when giving back your mantra..."Honey, you chose right. You chose a good man."

And you are Dazed. This war has not been easy. And there are some battles left to fight. But the toughest part is over. You kept your family together! You protected your family. You did your job. The Lord is pleased with you.

It is okay to let down and cry a little or to maybe second guess things. But once you have your pity party, then you must stand up and dust yourself off, grab your "weapon" and get back into the battle.

As I have said before...you are close!

In His arms.

Losthusband brought up a good point...where is that restraining order against the OM for you and your daughter??

And, please make sure you document EVERY phonecall. She is being abusive towards you and your daughter, which is going to further anger the judge.

In His arms.

Dazed,

Just because she's angry does not give her the right to verbally abuse you over the phone. It's not LB'ing if you tell her that you cannot talk to her if she continues to talk like that and then not answer the phone when she calls two seconds later. Let her cool off as well as yourself. This will help keep you from LB'ing out of defensive anger. It's a way of setting borders... borders that are for your protection as well as DD.

I just keep thinking that your plan B should be coming very soon. She acts so schizo when she talks to you. She vents and gets her fixes of dumping on you. It can't be good for you to keep hearing that stuff from her.

Her anger is just a manipulation tactic - try not to let it get to you.

Its not going to stop, so that's why you need to detach. Plan A when you have the opportunity.

You have to be accessable because of DD, however you may need to establish some boundries so she isn't hounding you for fights all day long.

You're going to reach a point soon Dazed, where all the L-Busts she's screaming at you will drain you. She's not making any deposits -- and just the situation of her being with OM along with her screaming and blaming you is going to drain your bank fast.

Be cautious of when your Taker starts coming out. It will be time for Plan B.

Little legal stategy to discuss with your lawyer. I don't know how comfortable you will be with this seeing as WW got your daughter a cell phone before and you made her give it up (if I remember correctly) HOWEVER it may be advisable for you to get DD12 a cell phone now. You will be facilitating communication between Daughter and mother without your "interference" and the court may look favorable on that in January. Plus when you do get to Plan B you get to more easily withdraw yourself from the communication triangle. Maybe a great Christmas idea for DD12 that she will absolutely love (especially cause you played the bad guy before and took it away).

Just an idea

Mr. Wondering

These questions are a bit concerning. Since your wife is already lying in court and isn't showing any care for what she's subjecting your daugher to, she may accuse you of sexually abusing your daughter. Does anyone else see these questions as a red flag? It wouldn't be the first time that an incredibly selfish person falsely accused the spouse of this in court. You should probably let your lawyer know about this ASAP.

Since your wife is being so abusive to you, and it is your word against hers, you might seriously consider moving most of your communication with her to email. She'll never admit in court that you have done everything to try to keep her from leaving and to keep her involved with your daughter. How can you prove anything that you've done so far? Is it illegal to record phone conservations in your state? You need some proof to back up your claims.

I hope things improve and that your wife comes around. I bet you that if she heard herself ranting on tape or saw a video of herself tearing up your house, that it would surprise her. She probably has no idea how she's actually behaving. That might be the wake up call that she needs.

Hang in there.

Dazed..there is a special cell on market...targets kids w/"two families"...as it is put...it is called a firefly. My xh is probably getting it for ds...as I suggested he get it. I bought all the toys.

It has a button for dad, one other for mom. And you can CONTROL the numbers coming in and BLOCK the numbers you wish to block,and b/c it is prepaid, you can never have an overage charge. Can get it at target.

She could still talk to friends a little bit, and primarily it would be for you or her mom. And you'd have control over the cell calls...perfect!

As for the WW making allusion to abuse...I would document her every notion...her every call now. It is apparent to me that plan B is nearing...it is almost here.

End A on a strong note. The flowers imho, is a good ending to plan A. She's so venemous right now that she even refused a bed when you offered her one...simply b/c it was YOU who offered her that.

if you speak to her, end calls when she becomes abusive. Immediately. You can "train" somebody to treat you a certain way. She's gotten used for the last few months giving you "doormat" treatment. You have to show her that you no longer respond to that. I did that with xh. He continued to yell, swear, and carry on wtih me...especially when I limited contact during first year of divorce. He only ceased when the county had the RO against him right before our divorce was final. But he started back up. Soon he learned that I will hang up on him if he does not behave. No civil talk equals no communication. And to this day my boundaries are more than clear. I only speak to the man regarding finances or ds. Usually ds. It is NEVER personal. I never ever tell my business to him.

I believe she must be allowed now to crash. She is dumping all her baggage onto you. And it is NOT fair! You did NOTHING wrong to deserve this ok?

Now. This may be hard. But if and when you do speak with WW, use absolutes in talks. Such as : WW: You're the reason I don't have dd. You lied in court! Dazed: You dumped our dd off with boys...lied to family members and placed child in harms' way. Do you think a mother is a good one if this happens? Wait for silence...she will not respond probably.

Gently say those words. Say the truth back to her. It's time to respond to fog babble with only truth.

And remember, the ONLY FUEL THE TWO HAVE BETWEEN THEM TO KEEP THE AFFAIR FIRE GOING IS YOU! The quicker YOU PLAN B...the QUICKER THEY LB! It is simple. I have seen this action work so much! I went into a D/B plan when I filed. And stayed this way. Since this time, the OW/W and my XH have more than love busted...they've LOVE BLUDGEONED! All over the place! Two separations in two years of marriage...THREE AFFAIRS in their two years of marriage. What romance huh?

But if you want this to work faster, I'd say to go to plan B. If YOU are not the FUEL FEEDING THEIR FLAME...THEN THEIR FLAME DIES! THEY WILL BEGIN TO PICK AT EACH OTHER...and ONE DAY SHE WAKES UP...SEES A MAN lying beside her w/morning breath. Hair all messed up. Or she sees a guy sitting on the potty reading the paper. Romance? No. Reality! Plus that combined with the fact HER DD IS NO LONGER HERS...that will end the fantasy forever!

Trust me! Let them have the fantasy. It will be seemingly ok for a while. They will scheme together and cook up stupid plans for her to get "revenge" against you. Maybe a cockamamy scheme for her to go after you in court next month? Probably so. But you will retort all lies with TRUTH AND CONSEQUENCES. The affair will die when she sees YOU are not fighting THEM. That her real enemy is the OM!

My xh recently found out that OW/W, whom I have not so lovingly dubbed "family values" is NOT AS SHE PORTRAYED HERSELF TO BE? Imagine that! My xh found out that his W was not honorable nor was she that totally committed stepmom to my ds!

Three weeks ago she swore at my xh and in front of my son and the idiot called my ds horrible swear names...My xh packed up his clothes, my son's clothes and toys and left. What a woman huh? He left us for who? Her? Sick.

You can expedite this process by going dark! Keep dd away from OM! Let their affair die faster by having NOBODY TO TURN TO!..IT WILL IMPLODE! I am serious!

She will see soon right thru OM. Just let their fantasy die a little ok? Help it die a little. How? By giving them to each other.

Want the definition of chaos?

Leave two liars alone with each other!

And when your WW starts back up on blaming you for where she's living...

Simply point out to her that you've done everything humanly possible to KEEP her from doing this to herself.

You've made all the changes possible in your behavior...SHE refuses to accept them, not you.

You've repeatedly made it clear to her that YOU want to work on the marriage, that YOU want her home...SHE chose not to work on the marriage, to move into that apartment herself.

Tell her that she's a grown woman...and that she's living the way SHE chose to...ask her when you told her she had to go be in that apartment? When did you move her into it? When did you do ANYTHING but try to fix this horrible situation?

Again, do so quietly...if she interrupts, stop talking...let her rant and rave...and when finally stops going off, let the silence linger on for several seconds...and then resume as though she hadn't said a thing.

No yelling...no arguing...simply say it quietly. As quietly as possible...so she has to strain to hear what you're saying...because that forces her to LISTEN for a change.

Remember...every time she yells...stop talking completely, don't yell back or anything...let her rant and rave and carry on...and you just keep your responses quieter and quieter each time. Eventually, even SHE will have to see that you're not fighting...SHE is.

Dazed,

Go to radio shack and get a recorder for your phone, office and home, so that you can record her conversations with you. You need records of this behavior, and you may need to defend yourself against some very slanderous charges given her question of you and your daughter.

Protect yourself, get the RO, and keep good records. Set your boundaries about the calls as others have suggested and try to have your MIL back off, and focus on your daughter. They will both benefit from this time as will you.

God Bless,

JL

Dazed:

Your WW was definately baiting you. From this moment on, assume she is taping every conversation. I would suggest you record every converstaion too. Most states, it is legal for one party to tape the conversation without the knowledge of the other party.

She wanted you to admit you were lying to get custody. Weigh every word you say to her as if you are being set up and taped.

Get a good recorder for your phone at radio shack. You have won the battle, she is just falling slow.

TooSoon

JL:

We had the same thoughts at the same time. You must quit reading my mind since I occasionally have deviet thoughts flash inside, HA!

TooSoon