MM...

[color:"red"] Answer: the fog. You see, your answers come thru in pieces. Like a cell phone that is in a bad reception area. Each time you talk, she gets a little piece she didnt hear before. Each time you repeat your mantra, the whole answer begins to form and to coalesce. What I am saying is that she asks the questions because she wants you to repeat the answers...so she can understand. So she can believe.
[/color]

That..... has to be the most BRILLIANT explanation of the "Fog" syndrome that I ever read!! Nice job MM....

Dazed,
You are doing great.. she's almost home... stay on course....\ GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS, FRANK

Dazed:

I don't want to sound like I am trying to dampen your spirits, but she is asking you what you are doing the Day after Christmas. What about Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, what is she doing on both of those days? Is the OM on Christmas Day and you are the Day after?

I get the feeling she continues to work both sides at the same time. I hope I am wrong, but there seems to be pieces missing in her stated quest to know the door is open for her to come back. If she knows she has you at her becken call, how many times does she get to get laid before she comes home. Why don't you consider telling her that enough is enough and if she is going to come home, DO IT NOW, not on the OM's or her time line.

TooSoon

Thanks. You might make me get a big head, so careful! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

TooSoon,

I agree with you sort of. But I have been EXACTLY where Dazed is right now. Exactly. And to use your name, it is TooSoon for that type of engagement with her. SH has even said this.

She is a woman that just had her child taken away from her. I am not a woman, but I do know what I saw in my wife's face the days and weeks after she lost custody...after she had been home for 8 years as a SAHM. I do know what women tell me...and that has to be one of the hardest blows she has ever had or ever will have, short of having her daughter die. I think in this situation, starting to press on her would be piling on.

Look, she has everything she asked for (except her daughter), and she is MISERABLE! She is spending a lot of time with Dazed now, and she is starting to change her mantra. She is sleeping on the floor in an apartment with bad heating. She has little furniture, and her car has fallen apart. It is Christmas...

Do I need to say anything more? She is living a he!! on Earth right now. Of course, it is of her own choosing. Of course, we on the outside of the fog can say "well hey, drop the Om and go home NOW." But just like any addict, it aint that easy.

Sure, she is probably cake eating. She has been doing that for awhile. But here's the thing. The cake on the OM's side is starting to taste nasty, and she is starting to see the cake on Dazed's side leaving her.

This is why she is coming around more, why she is talking the way she is. She is trying to make sense of her world, and the ONLY place it makes sense is at home.

So, I wouldnt jump on her yet. I wouldnt mention anything about the future in any negative terms, yet! Let her have these next few days, and even weeks, to flush this out for herself. Look, she has been seeing the Om all along, so nothing has changed there. But, in the same way...EVERYTHING has changed.

Their relationship is now doomed. Count on it! OM has so screwed up lately, Dazed has been a Plan A warrior, and now she has no family and living in a cold apartment. And the shining knight OM is nowhere to be found to rescue her. In the meantime, Dazed listen's to her, fixes her car, buys her birthday flowers and Christmas presents. Dazed shows up immediately when she asks him to come home. Etc.

This thing is done! A done deal. We just dont know which day it will be done. Dazed should not try to screw this up by taking control over it. He just sits back, enjoys his peace i nhis house, and Plan A's when she contacts him. He doesnt need to go out of his way anymore. If she doesnt call, then he doesnt need to Plan A.

Let her be the bad guy. Let her take the next step. I am bettign after the mess of court this week, that she wont want to go back again. She will tell OM that she is hurting and wants to delay or stop it. That she cant go thru with this. And OM's head will come clean off!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And she will RUN to Dazed...not walk, but RUN!!

I still say that his situation is exactly like mine was, and he needs to take these next several steps very lightly and deliberately.

In His arms.

Yes, MM, Dazed Soon to be XWW is temporarily holding herself up and doing whatever to not collapse and fall. If the wind blows too hard, she will drop like a rock. One Christmas day with her OM, at the expense of being away from her DD, may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

My wife learned the night I kicked her out because of her ongoing planning to move away anyway to be with her OM, that she didn't belong at the OM's house, but it took one night there to learn that.

I do think your case is very much like Dazed. A mother without their child is like a duck without water. The price is far too great to lose. Like Tony Robbins says, "The pain must be worse than the reward and if it is, the person will make the necessary change". Remember, my FWW was leaving her kids too during the thickness of the fog and I must remember how blinded WS's are.

Your advice to him is solid, and Christmas or no Christmas, the pain and suffering the BS must endure is a hard cruel fact of life. The WS pays much later. Like Dr. H says, the WS cannot escape their own conscious, so Mrs Dazed is paying now and will experience a broken heart when she can no longer see her OM.

TS

Just another observation, Dazed WW keeps her conversation, at this time, to the hurt she is bringing to her DD, not to Dazed himself. That part will sink in later for her though and total remorse will be expressed by the WW giving some needed help to Dazed when it comes to total foregiveness.

Dazed can't compete as well with the fantasy OM one on one at this time, but Dazed with DD competes so much better with the fantasy OM. Dazed package has all the substance in the world for his WW but the tool to break the affair is his darling daughter. I think that was crucial to MM's case too.

It doesn't matter what straw breaking tool works and I know it is a comb of so many things but every WS has their weakness and is influenced by a specific outcome. Her weakness today is the loss of her DD to Dazed.

If Dazed goes into Plan B, and I don't think he will have too, it must include his lawyer going 100% full custody of the child. Dazed WW knows today that he has a strong chance of winning custody. Her world has collapse as she knew it, all for the OM and the affair. Too bad but not too late.

TS

Dazed,

I will be signing off the boards later this afternoon. I woun't be back until Tuesday at the earliest. I just wanted to Wish you and yours a Merry Christmas. I hope you have a joyous and peaceful holiday!

Please forgive me if what I mention to you is totally out of place. I feel compelled to mention it to you because of some references in your posts.

Because of what you have mentioned about OM personality and WW personality, I think he may be into BDSM, especifically into domination and submission relationships.

It is not unusual that some, not all, people into bdsm have a past of a troubled sexuallity. OM may have atracted your WW using some of her hiden desires. The strenght of her adiction made me think it may have some sexual nature too.

If she has been able to express herself sexually with OM she may feel ashame of talking about it with you.

The need of direction and control, under BDSM, has a sexual nature too. The desire of belonging complete to someone. The domination a man has over a woman under that context, be it as role play or as daily life style, allow some women to express a sexuality they can not express under a reltionship of freedom. (Weird I know)

(I'm not expert of any kind. Just a fan of MB.)

Merry Chrismas <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Interesting thought larousse. I am curious as to what Dazed says about it.

TS

Okay- I guess I need a clear def of what DBSM is?
I m guessing sado mass of some sort?

Yes, my wife has major issues with sex and our relationship.
With me she always wanted the really traditional basic thing. Anything else would make her feel dirty and like a porn star. She wanted it to always feel to her like making love... Nothing wrong with that.....
WW was molested as a child, and her mother taught her that sex was dirty only done by bad people... That is why she had such traditional values about sex... I m not going to go into details, but there was a list of only a very few things she liked... A book of things she would not do or did not like.

OM's ex-wife told me that OM is a real pervert that was into hurting her in the bed room... She claimed he was into using toys on her and twisting her up like a pretzel and most of the time she was crying before he was finished. She claimed that this lead her to an IC. She claimed that he would have sex with her when she was sleeping and she would wake up with him doing things... She claimed that she had not given him sex for a year before they filed divorce papers because of the way he treated her in bed coupled with the fact he did not want kids.

Now what do I think about this? I think she has probably done what ever he wants to keep him from getting angry with her... She had already questioned him about what his wife told us about there sex... She had already been told he wanted oral sex everynight from his wife and all his perverted ways. He denied all charges except that he masturbated to porn because his wife would not give him sex and they were divorcing anyway... Right afterwards he went straight to his ex-wifes house and threatened her is she ever talked to WW or Dazed again...

WW used to brag about there relationship only being EA... That HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN SEX... HE KNOWS HOW I FEEL ABOUT SEX.... HE KNOWS I DONT WANT THAT... SEX DOES NOT MATTER TO HIM...
I have not heard any this for about two and half months. The last time she complained to me about sex being important to me I reminded her that I had not had sex since February or early March.

The strength of her addiction...
Is it more than the quest for happiness tied with the lack of trust in me? Good question...

Pervert meets prude. I don't think it will last too long. She will either give him what he demands and wants or he will leave her for someone that will. If she has her sex hangups, she will not feel right with the things he will make her do.

What a mess she has herself into.

TS

Don't believe ANYTHING she says about their sexual relationship. Simply: You attacked OM, she defended -- with whatever would deflect you best.

Honestly, I think Larouse is on to something there -- there are some control/addiction aspects to their relationship that would contribute to her being very different sexually with him than she is with you.

In addition, you have known her since she was a very young girl. You have this "image" of her that probably lingers from that time. She probably can't express herself as freely with you because of that image.

With OM, she gets to start over without hang-ups or the image of being a "good girl".

* * * * *

Anyway....how did Christmas go?

UPDATE:

It seem that WW and I have had more phone contact and she has probably been in the house more now since she moved out.
We worked together to get daughter the last of her Christmas gifts.
She even told me on the phone that she missed daughter, the house, the dog, and EVEN KIND OF MISSES ME. She has said, the other before... The ME part is new.

While we were in the kitchen together she said, she had taken many things for granted. Like a stove that works, having dish towels and baking utinsils... I said, yeah..I took a lot of things for granted too... Like you..

WW spent Christmas eve with us... We watched the movie Spanglish together. WW baked cookies and was in the house for four to five hours... She did leave Christmas Eve. but came back over Christmas day at 6AM just as promised...

I was able to get in many good Plan A hours... The entire time I kept our evening from being focused on us... That is my plan is to make sure each time we are together that we are not just focused on the status of "US". This seems to be really throughing WW off. She has commented about how good I seem to be doing.... Right at the end of the eveing, I went to WW and told her what I am doing... I told her that I feel that we should have fun and be relaxed with each other... The emotional "US" talks ends with tears and crying... I want to spend time where we are having fun or just enjoying each others time and living life together... That really landed with WW... She said, that is all she ever wanted... Just to enjoy time together.... I told her that I would love to tell her 24/7 about how much I love her and miss her but that is not always fun... I do love you very much, we miss you, we need you... I would rather show you a good time and tell you my feelings afterwards...
WW gave me a big hug...

5 seconds after she left and got in her car to leave she was calling me... The was crying... Told me thank you for the wonderful evening...You did so good tonight... Thank you. I will be there at 6AM tomorrow so daughter can open those gifts...

Christmas morning:
She actually let herself in, came right up stairs and got into bed with me. Made comments about how nice the bed feels and the house being warm...
She was in the house with us for 6 hours... She was here with us but she was is a sarcastic mood and was not so friendly the entire day... She felt bad about giving daughter her gift too early... She felt upstaged by my gifts even though we did work together to get the daughter the IPOD which was the biggest one and I put from mom and dad on all the labels, WW was still pissy..

After daughter took all of her stuff upstairs to play with it WW aske me... Dazed, It is amazing what you can do when you head is not stuck in a race car.... What is it like now... I am really... Tell me what it is like to be here and not be all caught up in racing a car... I said, WW... This is what it feels like to me..... I CAN SEE EVERYTHING NOW and I love it. There was much more good plan A stuff...

She made it tough though... She even made a comment about me doing so well... Sarcastis of course... I told her... WW told you I am not going to set around and wait for you... I am not hosting pitty parties and going to set around all day. Rather I am preparting and continuing to improve myself for when you return and come home. Now waiting around only preparing for the future...

WW left upset that me and daughter was going to go visit her family... Which we did and it was a bit awkward but they all was very nice and friendly to me..

WW called about four hours later wishing to apologize for her behavior at the house earlier... She said, she wished she would have went with... I incouraged her again, it was not to late to visit her mother...
I heard that her mom was upset with WW bigtime... First Christmas that WW did not see her mother in her life..

WW was very nice and wanting me to come home and possibly do something together. This did not happen... We called her as planned and no answer or returned call....

She called me again this morning just to talk... She told me she misses everything again... This time she said she misses feeling like a mother and not having people think she is an unfit mother / adultress...
We talked for 30 to 40 minutes... She was almost a sleep during the conversation... Not sure how much she got from it. She was very nice and friendly wanted me to comfort her was my take... I did not ask her to come home... Just kept the conversation in mode of: console, confirm, inform...

I offered to her to come over several times... Wanted to make it clear that she can come over, I want her to, but she needs to make the choice to do it.

There was a poster named 'Stunned Dad Fast Recovering' whose wife had been sexual abused in her youth. She behaved, sexually, very differently with her A partner (who sounded similar to your WS's OM) than with her H.

They recovered their marriage and he went on to pursue a degree in Clinical Psychology. He comes back and posts occasionally. You can probably find most of his story on the old board pre-March '05.

I think this is NOT the central issue here. While it may be something that LATER on should WW come home, commit to NC, and recovery and make amends....

The issue at hand is whether she is responsible now...choosing to be responsible for her behavior or not. Right now I'd guess she is still in the NOT category.

And also since we're mentioning fact OM is a perv, and that his xw volunteered this info, that SHE NEEDS TO BE SUBPOENAE'D! I think the judge will want to know this stuff...especially when dd is at a pre teen year age...very volatile sitch...leaving dd around a man with tendencies like that? I would want to find out by asking attny to have OM's computer confiscated, if he has any underage porn on it.

That is huge legally...and probably something you can find.

right now until WW comes back, you are the good dad always..nothing short of protecting dd.

And many people here have had bad parents or bad issues...My mom was really mean to me as a kid. Does that mean I am mean to my ds? Or does it mean I was cruel to my xh? Heck nah.

WE CHOOSE WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH OUR LIVES...and if we sense a problem, we either choose to get help or not. For me, it ws not even an issue. Was my xh treated cruelly by his parents? Nah. He was enabled all the way.

I think enablement is much crueller to kids and people...and ADULTS...btw...because of the actions and outcomes of it.

And yes, some WS do behave ddifferent sexually in affairs. Since our separation, I have found out that darth has had threesomes and such...several girls in same room with another guy type stuff. Bleech.

But Dazed...what is happening? What movement is happening? January is a week away my friend. Court will be coming. I say get the xw's testimony as a hostile witness if need be. Nothing would sound worse than her words combined w/fact she said she was threatened by OM NOT to tell WW or YOU!

You gotta put pressure on affair (Om+WW)..it is NOT LB'ing when you're telling truth. NOT! Heck you even have WW saying she does not want dd around OM and said she would not let her around him! How's that for court testimony?

Mrs. Dazed, did you say to Mr. Dazed on or around date of December 20, that you would not allow your DD around OM? Can you please tell the court why you said that? What reason possibly could you NOT want this man around your child if you think he is somebody worth leaving a marriage over?

I am sorry if this sounds harsh...

They say hindsight is 20/20, so I am viewing your situation with 20/20 vision.....

All I see is her cake-eating and you being a doormat gratefully taking the crumbs she is throwing you as if they were manna from heaven. The reason she is in that cold apartment with no dish towels, sleeping on the floor is because she can't rid herself of OM. STOP FEELING SORRY FOR HER. The reason she did not come back last night and did not see her own mother on Christmas is because she was with OM. Enough is enough already - time to make her face the music. She can't hit rock bottom if you cushion her landing.

Regards,

BB

Ouch !!!

Brit:

Not to threadjack, but how was your X-mas with your wayward husband/ex-husband? I was curious.

Lem

p.s. you can answer me on another thread.

Update:
WW was here at the house from 1PM till 6PM...
We had lunch at the house and just hung out watching tv, playing with the dog and some talking.

She stayed and watched tv while I went and picked up daughter and my niece and nephew...

There is one thing that she brought up again in conversation... She asked me again about why I let my lawyer say she had been out of the house for four months... She said, you tell me how much you love me and have changed for the best and speak of our future together yet you let that man lie with out objecting... I know what I have done and I have not been out of this house for no four months...

I again said, that he made that statement then corrected himself by saying you have been having an affair for four months and since then have been in and out of the house...

I deflected her question on this a couple of times but I finally had to take it on... Thinking about it now and having talked witha good friend I think this is a deal breaking issue for her that is holding up things... Damage to my plan A and what I am now standing for...

I have been reluctant to say yeah the lawyer lied... She could use that against me so I have been telling her just what I did today... Besides her laywer attacked me and said lies about me to...

My good friend suggested that I wait for her to ask this again... Next time I should acknowledge to her that I understand this means a lot to her... Tell her this... WW, I can see this is important to you... Let's you and I make a packed between us two... 1) Inform our lawyers if they represent us with information that is NOT TRUE we agree to object them and pull them back and correct them... 2) We agree to inform them with factual and truthful information to help prevent them from mis-stating information.

Any other ideas on this....

I know the truth is going to be painful enough on her... I just don't see any need to lie about it... Also, what about offering the wife an option to extend the court date... Stating that we are functioning pretty well as is. Let's extend the court date... This would be an option if she has not dropped everything by the next date...

I have a meeting with my lawyer Wednesday... Any ideas on what direction to give him?

When WW left tonight she thanked me for letting her come over and hang out today and the meal and snacks...
I told her she did not have to thank me and she could come back anytime... Asked if she would come back over tonight.. She said, she will call a little later and probably see me tonight. (Would be nice. Not holding my breathe)....
She called me with in five minutes.. Asking me if I gave out her address... Her sister mailed her a Christmas card to her apartment... Daughter must have told some one about it...
WW again thanked me... I asked her to come back over tonight. She said, she probably would. I asked her to bring her stuff when she comes... She said, she thinks about it every day and she will think about it tonight.

Okay other five hours in the house today... Most of it with out daughter... Where is OM at? Notice she had lunch with me again.

Is this not movement?

I m not holding my breath about seeing her again tonight. However I just had her in the home for five hours Christmas eve, six hours Christmas day, five hours the day after Christmas.. Keep in mind she is moved out and did so for OM. She has called me more and help lengthy conversation more since she left than in the past 9 months combined.

I KNOW this deal is not closed and there is much much work ahead... However, even after I went for full custody, and the lawyer got the facts a bit mixed up, she is still on the fence and wanting to be in the home. Is that not movement?

Yeah at first glance something is up with OM!! Could he be with family?? He has to know this is dangerous time for his relationship with your wife. He would have at least called her on the phone thru out the day you would think. I would look back at the last day you knew the OM was still making his presense felt and try track any changes.

You are making great progress. Your WW will be go both ways for awhile so be prepared for the yoyo effect. I think she knows she made a grave mistake and you will win her heart back completely, but not without some pain and uncertainty. I am truly happy for you.

TS