PH, Plan A the first time lasted from August 2002 to December 2002. Plan B lasted from December 17 2002 until January 30, 2003. She then moved in with us forover a year.

She then left in August 2004, so I Plan A'ed thru August until Nov, when I found the OM had come up from Florida for a visit and had spent the night. I was devastated and IMMEDIATELT went to Plan B. Now remember, my wife had already filed back in October and we were headed to court in December 2004 for a custody hearing. But tht event changed things for me. I felt EXACTLY like Dazed's last post!!

So, I went to Plan B on Thanksgiving Day 2004. Court was Dec 13, 2004, where I got primary custody of the kids. Two days after the court, my wife called and wanted to talk. I spent the next two weeks just letting her talk. Went out to dinner once with her so she could talk. January 3rd 2005, I moved back in with her and we are still trying. Not perfect, and some days it seems like it wont make it. And it still might not make it. But at least we have a CHANCE of making it now. With the affair, there was no chance.

In His arms.

Yes PleaseHelp, I think the tone for Dazed should be 180 Degrees to where he has been. He can't keep the dance going without his partner. He has done a brillient Plan A but she needs to begin believing there is permanency to her selfish actions.

Am I trying to get Dazed divorced tomorrow? No, but he needs to begin not needing her. He needs to prepare for a life without her and he needs to show it and imply it. First of all, under the existing circumstances, she is not going to come home. Her addiction is too great. He just found out Santa was not real over the Holidays but she played him for purposes of the courts. If he prepares for a life without her, he will be more ready to live without her and it will show through to her. If she knows he is preparing for a life without her, that changes the dynamics to this very painful game.

I am a seasoned salesperson in my work and I work with businessmen all the time. You may not believe this but when someone says to me they are not sure if they want my services or not, I tell them back that I have a say in the process too and I haven't decided if I want to perform my role or spend my money on their project. I don't say it as a game, my role in the project commits me to a financial obligation and many months of work to them. When the role is reversed on the customer, they usually try and prove to me that their project is worth me taking and they become concerned that I won't take their project on. I don't know why this is, but it is the same theory of the 180 approach. Take an indifferent attitude and the opposite of what they expect, and you can usually change the tone of the situation.

I do not want Dazed to run to the court room and get divorced today. I want his WW to think that he is openly preparing for a life without her. Radical siutations require radical maneuvers.

One more thing. Dazed preparation for life without his wife will give him the strength to accept life without his WW. Believer says that all the time. MB helped prepare her for the future without her XH. Once he knows he doesn't need her, believe it or not, he will take the control back and he will have the choice to keep her or dump her. If he takes her back, he takes her back with strict terms, not her terms.

TooSoon

I haven't posted much lately to you dazed.
I'm feeling exhausted from this -- I can only imagine how drained you feel.

When I was actively posting to you, my strongest advice was for you to begin withdrawing from the conflict. To stop having 3 hour phone conversations. Even though you think they are accomplishing something they really aren't.

I think you've reached the Plan A saturation point. Now that you've fixed her car, you're done. Now the game is yours to LOSE. All those negative interactions you're having with her are losing you points. And you don't have the opportunity to score any more. So be done.

You need to cut short ALL INTERACTIONS!

Get advice from Steve Harley on Plan B timing. I'm feeling like I need a Plan B from her -- I can only imagine how extremely you must feel that!

And actually I am really looking forward to the day when all of her venom is directed at her only remaining outlet -- OM!!!

I will call SH tomorrow for an appointment. I need to put together an update to email him prior to our phone call so he is up to speed.

Last night daughter wrote the letter I asked her to do. I also left WW a note of my own. Just a condensed version of the mantra on a card that i had bought for her about a month ago.

WW called about 5;30 wanting to know what we were doing. I told her leaving asked if she wanted to go to dinner with us after we ran some errands. She said she wanted to come over and get daughters letter and if we can call her back later when we get time.

Me and daughter were together all night. I took her to dinner and we call WW as promised. No answer. She actually did call us back and asked if we had eaten. She said she was sorry for not calling back sooner. She asked to tell daughter thank you for the note and that she loved her. So I let her do that over the cell phone.

WW called back at 9:30 real nice and said she wanted to wish us a good night and she misses us. She said, her phone battery was dieing and she did not have long to talk. I let daughter tell her good night and that was it.
WW called early in the morning from her car with the phone on the charger. Said, she wanted to thank me for taking care of daughter and being so nice and she was sorry for everything she has caused. She wanted to thank me for the little note and card and talking to her last night before her phone died.
I have to run now and go to the GA.

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope this means you are taking DD to the GA!!! If not and you are meeting with the GA, yourself, be sure to tell him/her all about the undue influence WW and MIL are putting DD.

Regards,

BB

Plan A does not require this Dazed. You are about to go to Plan B. Dont invite her! If she asks "can I come with you guys," then you say okay while you are still in Plan A. But please stop inviting her to do stuff. As Lexxxy said, you arent gaining any points. You have reached critical mass.

It really is time to start looking stronger and to start disattaching. That way, your WW will begin to see what is happening and what is going to happen. But even more important, each of these requests that she turns down drains more love from you. Dazed, you are close to flipping that love to anger. Until you go to Plan B, you had better start protecting yourself.

Good job on the letter to the GAL. Keep doing the things listed in the previous posts. You have a lot of work to do. You need all of this time to prepare for the next stage.

Get ahold of Steve ASAP. You can either just cut and paste from here what has been going or just reference him back to these boards.

In His arms.

dazed..

your ww told you she is attracted to another type of guy..the overly confident, smiling laughing guy...that's not the kind of guy who is always chasing the ww...always telling and reassuring her that HE IS ALWAYS THERE FOR HER.

You need to heed some advice. pull back. do the 180 and make yourself new...acting, a new look (throws ws for a curve always) and new way of dealing with her.

I hope you and dd are going to the GA. your attny needs to be alerted asap about the pressuring tactics of the ws and the mil about the ga...

Quick Update:
Things here at work are really busy...

Yesterday WW called my brother and talked to him about what she should do about coming home or not.
She called me and told me that he really helped her clear things up. This was at 12PM.

Here next stop was at the GAL office from 1PM till 2:15PM.

The GAL told me that she commented to WW about what she could take from her meeting...
GAL told me what she told WW.
1) Think of the future. What kind of future do you see for yourself? What kind of future do you see for your daughter? You know most all affairs do not last.
2) You have let this man drive a wedge between you and your husband and now he is driving one between you and your daughter. Do you really think he cares about you?

GAL told me that we both said good things about each other and that we both thought that each of us were / are good parents. GAL said, that alone would be enough for her to recommend that you two attempt to resolve your problems. However, there appears to be far too much anger to not be toxic in front of your daughter. That is my big concern here...
The GAL really pegged the entire situation... She told me that most likely your marriage was hurting and that your wife was very vulnrable and this man took advantage of her.

I think the meeting went very well. I informed her that I was trying to save the marriage and that I have been seeking counsel and help for self improvement as well as understanding and learning from this experience.

I quoted many things I have learned from MB about what I thought would be the ideal situation for daughter. I spent and hour and a half talking with the GAL... She started off attacking me with WW accusations but soon appeared to grasp what was taking place... I was impressed with how quickly she was able to summarize the situation...

GAL said, that we needed to address our anger and communicational problems and for her to get rid of OM and we may be able to work something out... Atleast we need to work out way to parent.

When I got home daughter told me that WW had called several times wanting to talk to me. WW asked me how things went. I told her that I told her the stuff about how good of a mom she was and that the GAL said we both said similar things about each other and that she thought just our comments about each other as parents would be enough for her to suggest working on our problems. I told her that GAL said we needed to be able to communicate with each other with out anger in order to have a chance.

I did not tell her any more about the GAL visit... I informed WW that i was taking daughter and her friend to dinner. I kept my conversatin light and let WW talk to our dog over the phone. I got the dog to bark for her and play around. When I held the phone back up from the dogs ear i couldl hear WW telling saying that mommy loves you little girl, it's me your mom, I miss you...
WW then told me about her converstaion with my brother... She then asked me if she comes home will I be able to make her laugh and be funny and be a good guy... She said, again that she is sorry for all this.
She was driving during the phone call and then it started shaking and she got worried it might stop... So we started talking about the car and what it was doing.
I told her that after dinner that I would come over and look at it.
Me and daughter went over and took the car for a couple of hours to work on it. WW was not at the apartment and had no idea we took the car until this morning.

WW called me at 6:45AM today... She said, "I am coming home tonight. Is that okay with you?" I said, of course... Yes... She asked if we were getting up and if she could talk to daughter... She told daughter that she was coming home tonight and wanted to do her hair in the morning and help her pick out cloths to wear... Daughter said, are you sure you want to take that chance... I am not good at getting up in the mornings... WW said, that's okay.. I will help you...

So, I am really nervous about this...
I am afraid to get to excited to just have her back out on me and crush me.
I am afraid to not show any excitement towards WW.
How do I approach this. There is a lot of time in the day and she has bounced back and fourth so quickly before I am just afraid she will back out...
One note: She dropped her car off at another repair shop so we can get the front end repaired. Most likely she will not have a car for lunch time today...
Atleast she can't go see OM with out some effort. Do I call and ask her to lunch?
When / If she comes home tonight how soon do I set her down and start working on the recovery steps?

Gotta run.. More later

OK...I may well get bludgeoned with multiple 2x4's here...


Dazed...did you point blank ask your wife if she's ending the affair to return home? If not...WHY NOT?!?!?!

Personally, I would have made it very clear to WW what her criteria for returning home are...NC being the first and foremost!!!

My worry is this...you've solved NOTHING. Your wife will return home...and continue her affair...continue her cake-eating/fence-sitting ways...will continue to treat you and your DD horribly anytime you put pressure to end her affair...will now resort to moving out as a threat at the first sign of dispute or disagreemant, especially around the affair.

She's paid no penalty. She's learned no lesson. She's not YET hit rock bottom, and so her return at this point to me seems like it's going to hinder your recovery...since recovery hasn't started yet.

I could be wrong...looking at the 'experts' here for their thoughts...but personally I'm not sure if I would have agreed to her return without first securing some conditions. Just as you would have had this been a plan B seperation. I didn't agree with her moving out, but allowing her to return without doing something to move forward your reconcilitation seems like giving her permission and acceptance and allowing her to continue her affair to me.

Owl, I was about to write along the same lines.

Dazed, the same thing leaps out at me. There was nothing in your recounting about her ending the affair, agreeing to write the No Contact letter. The fence sitting isn't over until she sets up permanent boundaries against the OM.

Your wife needs to write the No Contact letter, you get to review and approve it, and you get to put it in the mail. She gives you carte blanche to her cell phone, IM accounts, all passwords, for as long as it takes.

The affair ending actions are chemotherapy against cancer. It can't go underground. There can't be little emails to cheer up and support the former affair partners between themselves. No text messages, no nothing. No holiday cards ten years from now .... or it will fester. The agony will be endless. You can't rebuild without the MB guidelines.

It's premature until she writes the No Contact Letter and agrees to the rest of the conditions of ending the affair.

Owl-
That is a no brainer for me man... She has read most of the book, surviving an affair... That last time she talked about staying for the marriage, I made it clear that the affair had to end.
I did not feel the timing was right to swing the club at her before she gets on the front porch.
I believe she pretty much knows what i am going to ask her to do.
Thanks OWL-

a thousand DITTOs

I agree with the others, that there needs to be a system in place PRIOR to her return. Your daughter has had enough drama in her life and truly doesn't need another failed recovery attempt. I think it would be a wonderful idea to ask her to lunch to discuss her return, then at lunch you talk about what has to happen for y'all to reintregate. First and foremost would be no contact with the OM and a No Contact Letter approved by you. Unlimited access to cell phone, computer passwords, etc..... I think that I would go so far as stating that her agreeing to counselling would also need to be a stipulation.

Allowing her to come back 4 days before court, where she knows she's going to get hammered, without any safety net in place would be unfair to you but more importantly it would be unfair to your daughter. Protection of her through this time has to be your #1 priority......

??? are you saying you plan to swing that particular club when she is on the front porch???

Awwww, but you must remember she is not you, so what you define as a no brainer may not be the same regardless of what books she has half-heartidly read.

Dazed,

Its great news that WW wants to come back.

But I agree with Owl's comments about asking about the end of the affair.

I fear that if that's not made crystal clear she will be right back to "cake eating".

I would call her back and ask her if the affair is over and if she will agree to NC EVER AGAIN with OM! If she doesn't agree to this then you will know where she really stands.

I really hope for the best for you on this. I know that it may be painful but I think that it is REALLY important you ask WW this before she comes back.

Agreed with Pep...I wouldn't wait until then...she's going to accuse you of trying to trick her or something.

If these are your requirements (and they should be, IMVHO), they should be clear and up front RIGHT NOW. No confusion for her here...no chance for her to weasel or whine about it.

And make them VERY clear.

1. NC- Which SHE needs to prove to you. If this means leaving her job...so be it. Put in her notice before she comes home today.

2. She becomes an 'open book'.- Complete accountability to you...especially during those times that you know she used to spend time with OM. She needs to be completely accessible at all times via cell phone or some other means.

3. MC- By a counselor that BOTH of you can approve of. You will continue to work to find one until you do...and if either of you do not approve of one, you must give decent, logical reasons why not to use that counselor. No excuses for not getting into counseling ASAP.

4. Family counseling as well- wife needs to learn appropriate outlets for anger and both of you need to rebuild relationships with DD as well.

You get the picture. Allowing her back under anything less than this is dangerous.

When my wife's OM told her not to come to live with him because he knew she was not completely sure what she wanted to do, she took that to mean that their affair was over. And so I allowed her home. But...within days she was IMing and emailing him again...even calling him. Every time we'd go to MC, she'd say that she had JUST started NC...again each week. It was nearly two months before TRUE NC kicked in...that made our recovery ******. And I didn't go through nearly as much of an emotional ride as your WW has put you through!

Give this some serious thought...you're assuming your wife is aware of this...but it's possible she's just playing the same ole game. I suggest that you call her and gently ask her if she understood that coming home meant exactly THIS.

It needs to be very detailed ... what does NC really mean?

no emails
no text messages
no phone calls
no waving across the street
no speaking even if there is accidental crossing of paths in public
no verbal "goodbye" closure

a letter stating she is returning to the marriage and she wants NO CONTACT from him EVER for the rest of their lives .... and the affair was a BIG MISTAKE ... GOODBYE FOREVER

NOTHING in the way of contact is the only acceptible response

Have her put her commitment to NC in WRITING .... like signing a contract ! Let her know how important NC is by her written signature agreeing to NC.

Pep,
Wish I could be as pithy and succinct as you.