Dazed,

These people are making sense. Go back and look at my threads in January thru March 2003. I was in Plan B, had filed for divorce and was close to a hearing. And my wife decided she wanted to come home. I did not make her send NC letter. I did not tell her that she must go to counseling (MC). We resolved almost nothing before she moved back in. Shortly after moving in, withdrawal set in...she pulled back. And for the next year, it was like living with a roommate. And she maintained contact! Then she moved out again.

Dazed, you cannot stop any of this and you cannot let her home without the following:

1. She ends things with OM forever, which includes a NC letter to OM, that you review.

2. Get her several sessions with SH, as he can help her come up with a plan to get out of the fog. He can also help her understand the NC letter, what she is about to go thru, and what will happen if she does the right things.

These two are mandatory. No OM and counseling. Without that, you must tell her that nothing has changed. And that she cannot come home until both of you are sure she is doing so for the right reasons. If you want to, so she doesnt become too angry, then tell her that you want the counseling before she comes home. That you want her to talk to SH and to help her prepare herself. SH will then take her where she needs to go and will inform her of what she needs to do, including the NC letter.

This may or may not be real Dazed. So far, these are still just words. She must do the right thing now if she is sincere. Please do not allow her home without this, because it will only cause more problems!

In His arms.

Really....

the NC agreement is to protect HER from her addiction !!!!

Do you understand?

It is not punishment .... if she were addicted to heroin, what would you require of her??? TREATMENT and RANDOM TESTING (open book)

Pep-Mort-

Yes, I totally agree with the mandate that she end the affair for ever and agree to take what ever steps to make that possible.

I really did not want to have that talk over the phone before work.

What do you think about me asking her to lunch so we can discuss her return to the home.
Then I tell her that she must agree to take radical steps to end the affair and agree to no contact for ever. Also, agree to both of us selecting a pro-marriage counselor.

Daughter well be out of the house tonight for several hours. I could also have this meeting with WW there..

Call her and have lunch, and have the discussion in a public, neutral place. Should keep her from going ballistic on you at least.

Dazed,

We are not hammering you we are coaching you. It was also mistake to hand your daughter the phone and give her hope which you know are very likely false hopes.

Maybe you could call the GAL and tell her WW wants to come home. GAL is a private attorney assigned by the court to oversee the case...but she is a private practitioner and would be available for hire. If wife and you set up a "coming home plan" in front of her that wife fails to follow through on...which is possible...that cruel behavior by WW to your daughter...arising false hopes of reconciliation... will only help your custody case. You also legitimately look like the parent trying to reconcile not just one that tells the GAL that to "win" custody. You could negotiate all the conditions suggested above with the court appointed GAL right there as your third party witness and scriviner (sp?).

Additionally, I would contact your attorney. What right do you have to keep the hearings going if your wife withdrawals the petition? A term of your letting her back in may be a simple adjournment of the proceedings instead of having her withdraw the petition. Why???? Because then you have court ordered possession of the house and you can LEGALLY kick her out if she breaks "no contact". Also, you have court order temporary custody of DD12 which may also continue henceforth until the petition is actually withdrawn say in 3 months. Check with your attorney whether Divorce Proceedings can be adjourned and simply left open as they stand currently and for how long?

Keep fighting. Your doing great. Try to get some work done. Your job is important to you too...tell your boss thanks for being so understanding lately. Your still batting .975 on my MB scale.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W-
Excellant advice....
Involving the GAL is a great idea. I will suggest to WW that we set up a coming home plan... I like the sound of that...
We need to include the GAL in our "coming home plan". Also we need to make it a requirement that we contact our lawyers and inform them of our plan to reconsile and that we wish to adjourn the hearings...
Yes, I agree with only asking to adjourn... Great idea..

About giving the phone to daughter... I did not think... It really was a surprize that she told daughter she was coming home. Yeah, that was my mistake...

Okay---
1) WW must agree to end the affair and take extraordinary precautions to avoid OM forever... (NO CONTACT LETTER)
Absolutely no contact... email, phone, letter, wave, drive by, visit with any of his friends or family, nothing
Must also be 1) Honest 2) Account for time 3) Time spent with family. 4) Joint agreement

2)

I agree.

Personally, I think it would be better served if this meeting were to occur outside the home, like at dinner or lunch if you're prepared by then.

Further, as others have suggested, I would insist that certain things happen prior to her return such as the 'no contact' letter and counselling. Heck, it's after the 1st so her rent should be paid so she has the place for the rest of the month. This right here is where you can't get into a sprint to the finish, you still have to pace yourself and run the marathon.......

Good pick up on this one, Mr. W.

Dazed, until it is official, your daughter doesnt need to know about this stuff. At your meeting, also ask your wife not to say anything to your daughter until you all get things settled.

DD doesnt need to be on the rollercoaster.

In His arms.

Counseling should be a requirement too as I'd suggested Dazed. All three of you are traumatized by what's gone on...and this has strained how the three of you interact.

You and the wife need some solid MC to help recover from the affair and it's aftermath.

Your whole family needs some group counseling to help deal with your wife's anger issues, your daughter's resentment and acting out, and your interaction with both of them as go between.

Hope things go well for you though friend. You are in my prayers!

Well Dazed, what happened and what is happening?

Keeping y'all in my prayers.....

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

Alright my friend....starting worry about you now. Prayers are going out for you right now.

Owl -

No worries...we've taught young grasshopper well.

Besides, remember his home computer is down and he's got to keep his job.

Prayers, Dazed

Mr. Wondering

Quick update:
Home computer is still not working... I will have it going tonight...

Okay, WW called yesterday about 4:30pm... I can tell that she had contact with OM. She was really starting to unravel and backing out on coming home. She asked questions that sounded just like OM talking. Stuff like she will be giving up happiness to come home blah blah... I gave her another condensed version of the Mantra... Then had to leave to go get daughter.
I talked to my friend on the way to get daughter and he suggested I do a take away on her to see what would happen.

So WW called at 7PM to talk and give me what I felt was going to be the blow off for the night. I told her if she was not quite sure about coming home then don't. Unless your know you want to then just wait awhile...
She called back about 15 minutes later asking to pick up daughter and take her to dance class....
WW called me back and said she wanted to stay and watch daughter dance... I heard today that one the other mother that was there asked who WW was and why she had never seen her there before... WW said the woman asked about her daughters school and who she had for teachers... WW said, I don't know. WW said the woman rolled her eyes and said I guess you are not one of those mothers that are very detailed or into what there kid is doing... WW was very hurt by that... WW was one of those very protective moms until OM came along...
So, any way... I called WW on her cell near pick up time from daughters dance.. I asked if she had planned on still picking up daughter and dropping her off... WW was very quiet and seemed hurt that I had to ask if she was going to pick up daughter and then drop her off...
WW shown up with daughter came right in and set down on the couch... She asked me about bills and money wanting to see if I needed her to give me any money for bills... I declined and told her to not worry about it...
I went on up stairs in my office for about fifteen minutes to finish my monthly bill mail outs and when I came down WW was asleep...
Me and WW went about our buisness for the rest of the night and let WW sleep. When I tucked in daughter to bed she asked if mommy was staying... I said, well honey... I love you and I am sorry but I she is a sleep on the couch so who knows.
I went down tried to wake WW. She was really out of it. I told her that we needed to talk before we did anything else... I told her that I was going to go up to bed unless she was ready to talk... She remained quiet so I went on up... I think I heard her leave around 3am.

She left me a note on the counter that said she was sorry and we would get this all worked out this week end.

Today she has called me several times again... I pretty much avoided talking to her about what she should do crap... She sent me several email... So I wrote her letter back to sum up this current deal..

Here it is...
_______________________________
WW-
You must be thinking about everything right now. Trying to picture your future and everyone else’s all at the same time. You have probably been doing this for some time now. I know this…. It has to be so hard for you… The hardest thing you have ever done. However, I do understand where you are at. It is truly a cross roads in life. There not suppose to be easy to figure out… Any one that says a life changing decision is easy must be crazy or just lying.

WW, I can see you are so exhausted and weak. Your eyes reflect the pain in your sole that this has all created for you. As I have said, it looks like a strong breeze could blow you over. Yes, I hurt just seeing you in such misery. I want to make it all stop for you and help you begin to heal… Comfort you, take care of you and help you become happy.

Yes, I do still believe in us and you. We are at that cross roads in life together. It is so scary looking at which way to go. Either way is just not so clear about what to do. There are so many questions, doubts and worries either way. Concerns about making the wrong choice while waiting for the right choice to become clear in your mind. Yes, I feel your pain. I can help you but you must take my hand and let me.

As I have said, many times… It is your choice to make… I can help you. I can show you the way and show you how much I love you and what I have learned from all this…However; I refuse to push you… WHY… Because I love you and respect you. You are a very smart woman. Much smarter than me in many ways. You maybe struggling with this but I believe in you. Maybe if you believe in you and trust in yourself, you can see the direction to take and it will become clearer to you, and not look so scary.

You ask me if my feelings have changed. I love you and DD12 more than anything in the world…

This is how I feel: We can now have the great marriage we should have had and that you wanted. It is your decision though.

You can come home and together WE build that marriage, or you can go to the life you are building now. I really have no choice in the matter. (ME) I decided that I want the first...I want that marriage. So, what happens from here is your choice. I am ready to put all this behind us and start today if you are.

But as always, it is your choice! I have no control over your choices…

You probably already have a good idea what needs to be done for us to begin down the path towards happiness together. I rather we talk about this together face to face. Because these would be the first steps that I feel we must make and take together…Just you and me…

DD12 and I love you very much WW. It has happened… You have reached me…. You tried so hard and so long… Yes, now we can have it all.

p.s.

Just a thought…
You know you can talk to my friend XWZ about this stuff too. He has gone through this stuff like ours too.
No he does not work for marriage builders although he probably could be a marriage counselor. He is a nice guy.

p.s.s.
Sorry about the long message…. This might be hard to fit into a bottle…
You know for some reason I have that song stuck in my head… Message in a bottle…

Dazed

I think you need to clearly spell out for her...reiterate, what has to happen in order for her to come back home. You need to be very clear. She doesn't just get to come home without a clear commitment to NC for life with OM. To commit to working on the marriage etc, etc. Refer back to MM's excellent post on this subject.

She needs to want it enough to be willing to do anything and everything that is necessary. Maybe schedule another session with SH for early next week to get his take on it.

I am just afraid that the court date will come and go and nothing will change with her still on the fence or keeping the excitement alive by seeing OM on the side...or feeling entitled to his 'friendship'. NOT.

Dazed:

Everything sounds positive for you but she is not there yet. Her vacillating today is the reason why you must set the strict rules for her to return. This guy is not going to end it without a fight. He may not even want her as bad as you but he may want to win the battle for her to feed his sick ego.

Dont miss the opportunity to be firm and to the point. She knows there must be rules and will be surprised if you don't lay them out for her. She has abused you too much and will do it again unless you take total control. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. I remain skeptical of her motives though, since court is coming soon.

TooSoon

pull back...quit chasing and let ww chase you.

no more love letters...she knows.

no more fence sitting...this could be more game playing from her...to avoid court...AVOID COURT...get it? if she plays house long enough, she will not have to face pain.

this is about DD..primarily right now.

was incredibly cruel of ww to call dd and tell her that she was coming home if she was still on fence.

way off fence? no OM...NC...and agreeing to stop HER side of divorce.

I would tell her all bets are off unless she moves home and there is firm NC.

personally, I think she is angling for the cake eating. and will try to do what she can.

just remember..OM is getting crazy from her too by now ok?

stay firm. BUT PLEASE PROTECT DD AND KEEP DD IN FOREFRONT...ww is STILL A WW.

I pray she comes home...BUT NOT UNTIL SHE IS NO LONGER A WW AND FINDS BROKENESS...she has to have motivation to change.

Peachy has a point, but I would not set ultimatums. You do need to protect DD. You also need to send her an email, with EXACTLY what it will take for her to come home. In many ways, she is clueless and lost, and she may not even understand how to come home. You do, so spell it out. Not in a lengthy love letter, but in a short, succinct, answer to how she must do this.

Plan B is coming. It will be THEN that she will only have the PBL to lean on. Dr. Harley even says that Plan B is for when the WS is vascillating on whether to stay with Op or go home. You are there. As soon as the next hearing is over, you should be handing her the PBL.

But there is still a slim chance she may get it before then. And with a mini-PBL, that spells out what she has to do to come home, and with you pulling back from her...should start that process and help push her in the right direction.

My bet is still on Plan B after the hearing. But, you still need to play everyday right up until then. You are doing great. She is leaing on you like never before. The WW's pain will be EXTREME when Plan B comes, which I love!!!

Keep moving forward. Get that mini-Plan B letter to her. Keep pulling back. Protect your daughter. Take care of you, your health, your job. These are your priorities now.

In His arms.

Update:
WW called me Friday at 5pm in a very good mood. She was joking with me and saying she wanted her friend to meet me and asked me to be nice to her.
Her car being at the front end repair shop for the night, WW was to go home with her girl friend. She told me that she was going to spend the night at her friends and the two of them were to come over in the morning. Having already said I was going to be taking down Christmas decorations and cleaning she asked if she could show the our house to her friend...

They were to come over by 10am. WW did not call or nothing the rest of the night. WW called daughter on daughters cell phone at 11:15am to tell her to tell me that she was a the salon getting her hair cut.

I called WW on the cell phone at 1:15pm. She was short with me and ******. Said, I am getting my hair cut. I asked if she was getting it colored too. She said, NO.. I said, If you were there at 11am then I just figured you must be getting it colored too since it's 1:15. She said, I have to go, call you later and then hung up.

So, the repair shop closes at 3pm on saturday... I went over and meet with the shop manager, had them explain to me what they replaced and reviewed all the details about what they did... I paid the bill ($600.00). By now it's 2:30pm. Knowing WW was suppose to call me back and hung up on me last time on the phone I took the car for a test drive. This way if something was wrong or if I had questions I could still go back and talk to them before 3PM.

I made it three blocks when WW calls me on the phone wanting to know what I am doing with her car and to bring it back right now. Accused me of steeling her car and why did I just think I could take it.

I take the car back and she comes out from the store, gets in the car with out a word or even a look at me and she drives off. I was really mad about her phone call and lack of appreciation so when i parked the car.. I got out and just set in my truck pared right beside her car.

She calls me about twenty minutes later going nuts. I found out that she was parked with OM in the parking lot when I pulled in. I did not see them. I found this out when I asked how she finished getting her hair cut and made it all the way across town in 10 minutes with out a ride that i was suppose to provide...

She was just screaming mad into the phone... Just kept saying that I stole her car. I think that she may have been grand standing with OM setting right there.
I got her to admit that OM took her to the repair shop. Knowing that she has 100 dollars in her checking account and her credit cards are now maxed out I figure he was going to pay for it too.
She told me that she was going to pay for it and was mad as ****** that I also paid for it.

After talking to my friend. It would make sense that OM was going to ride in on his white horse and pay for the car repair to one up me for replacing the engine last week.
Also, WW most likely just got caught in a huge lie by saying that I was not a part of this car repair at all. The bottom line is that she just got caught up with OM in a some sort of lie and he was really mad at her.

When she called yelling at me I just kept telling her that she could not talk to me that way and I was not going to allow her to yell at me any longer. She actually would stop yelling and apologized for yelling two times when I would apply that on her. She would stop yelling and then ramp herself back into a scream... I would each time say... WW, stop yelling at me... I am not yelling at you... I will not accept this from you any longer... You either talk to me or this conversation is over. Not one time did she end the conversation...

Like clock work, WW calle back in one hour wanting to apologize for her behavior and everything. I was short with her and did not openly accept her apology. I just said, yeah okay to her. I did not offer her nothing or did anything to extend the conversation... After a few minutes I told her that I needed to go and if she needed to talk she new how to find me.

She called daughter and wanted to go pick her up from her friends house. WW called me all crying asking to pick up daughter and spend the evening with her and then come home so we could talk. She asked to take daughter to get her nails done at the mall and maybe dinner.. WW said, she wanted to spend time with just DD12 so she could think about what she had to do about this. This being coming home or continuing her affair and divorce and so on.

I agreed but, told her that she was not to talk to daughter about divorce and that kind of thing... WW agreed. I also, said... WW you know that daughter was really upset when you did not come home for good Friday as you promised her... She is now thinking you are coming home by the end of the week end... Please be very gentle with her... OKAY...

WW calls me from the mall parking lot with daughter in the car... Yelling at me for not bathing daughter and how filthy she is and when was the last time she washed and she stinks and her hair is gross and her teeth and breath are horrible.... I said, WW... Can't she just wash when you bring her home... It is not that big of deal...
WW says how do you think you are a better parent than me when you can't even wash her... She is a pig. I said, she promised me she would wash this morning at her friends house when she got up... Maybe she did not feel comfortable there... WW say, well she obviously just lies to you and says she will do one thing and never does it... Where did she learn that from???
Sorry I could not resist.... I said, Well... She has had some real good role modeling to learn from both of us now hasn't she... WW says, I know where you going with that... I guess I will take it...
WW starts again saying how gross daughter is and that when WW was a kid how clean she was and is blah, blah... Then WW starts yelling at daughter to get back in the car... I tell WW that I am on my way to come get daughter and not to leave, i have had enough.

I get on block from the mall and WW is driving at what looked to be speeding very fast the other way... She calls me from her cell phone screaming that she has daughter in the car and is taking her to your house.

Before I can get home WW calls back wanting to know what is taking so long. She is screaming and crying. I get home. WW is in the car out front. I ask her where is daughter. She says inside the house, go in a check on her. I said, why didn't you? She said, just go in and check on her...
I go in. Daughter has locked herself in her room and is inside crying. I tell her daddy is home and it's okay. Just calm down and I will be back up to see in a minute.

I go outside to find out just what the ****** WW is thinking. I ask her what are you doing? She said, that daughter told her she never wanted to have anything to do with her ever again. WW was hysterical crying, and screaming. I told her to shut off the car and calm down... Then come inside once you have calmed down. She held the car throttle down on the floor and burn off as fast as she could down the street.

I spent the evening with daughter. Cooked her pizza and spent time together. She told me that her mom was acting crazy in the car she held the horn on the entire way home as she drove.
I explained to daughter that mom is very sick right now. I told her to not allow her mom to give her phone messages for me any longer. If she tries, tell her that dad said I can't take messages from you. I told her that she should not get back in a car with her mom until her mom apologizes and promises to never drive like that again with you in the car.
I told her to tell me every time that her mom tries to contact her make sure she tells me about all of it.
She said, that mom promised to be home this week end. I said, that her mom is very sick and lost right now.
I reminded her that dad has a plan to help mom but mom has to let dad help her. That we can not accept your moms behavior. We must be an Oak tree that does not sway in the wind. Daughter says, dad what if I am missing some branchs now. I said, well when storms hit most often tree's do loose leaves, branches and get hurt. But a solid Oak tree will be survive and bloom again and grow back branchs when the Spring comes.
Right now as hard as it seems we must be Oak trees. If we are going to be able to help your mom we must with stand the storm. I am your Oak tree baby girl. There will be no secrets between us right... There is nothing that you can tell your dad that will make him stop loving you. You come to me when your hurting, sad, happy, excieted, for anything. I am here and I know it hurts... Daughter says, that I am just suppose to let moms pain kill me. I said, don't let put pain onto you. She said, I just miss my mom. It hurts not having her there for me. I just want her back and it's hard to not be nice to her or say something that she wont like.
I said, that you can do that daughter. You can tell her anything and everything you want to. She is not mad at you or angry with you. She needs you to help guide her. I know that you don't like talking about this crap. I am not saying you should dwell on it with her... Just don't accept anything your mom is doing, short of being your mom.

You don't have to accept what she is doing to get her love you. You know what she is doing is wrong. So does your mom. She is sick, that is why she is hurting so bad right now.
You will understand more when you get older. Just know that you have done nothing wrong and you are a beautiful little girl. Your right, this is not fair to you. Daddy loves you and your mommy does too.
___________________________________


Get this one:
At 10:20am this morning I up stairs in the office. I hear the dog bark and start on my way down stairs to see what is going on. WW has let herself in the house, and was half way upstairs holding a bag of McDonalds food. She holds it out to me and says, here yah go. Turns around with out another word and leaves. What the ****** was that all about?

I tried to call her cell but no answer. No word from her all day.

WW called me around 3:15pm... Says that OM took the cell phone she has been using back. I said, oh. Did he get mad because you were calling people he did not want you to call? She said, well I just gave it back. So, please don't call it and leave messages. I will not get them.
She was calling me from a pay phone.
She said, she was going to go eat something and then call me later.

Court is tomorrow at 2:30pm. I now preparing all my information. Still have not read the GAL report. My lawyer says, that he did not get it Friday and if is shows up Monday morning that he is going to ask for the court to move the hearing back till the 23rd everyone can have time to read and respond to the GAL report from all three of our interviews with her.

BTW~ WW did get her hair colored... Stupid blonde hi-lites. I always hated that crap... Makes her look cheap. She started this crap after OM came along. Must be his thing.
I think he took her to the salon to get her hair done. I bet her paid for it knowing she is broke... The next time I talk to the girl at the salon that does our hair I will have to get the goods on if OM was there and just how bad she bashed on me to the girls...

So, WW has bounced off and on and over the fence big time in the last few days again. My mistake is not really pinning her down when she agrees to coming home... This is atleast three times now that she was going to come home after taking care of business... Then he pulls her back in each time. I told her that she can't do that alone. Next time she is ready to come home, me and you will together go take care of business. She did not reply to that one.

Also, note that the last two times the week end leading up to Monday court he got her to leave town with him. Not so lucky this time... Although he is trying to keep her under his thumb. Who knows. I almost think she will either have a nervous break down, and or this divorce thing will go the distance before she see's the light. This OM is such a piece of work... How dare she think of talking to going home to her husband and daughter...lol

When she is so full of venom and hate it would be easy to just stay away from her...
Just think about how hard it would be to Plan B her... The first time I am not available for her she will hunt me down big time. Knowing that OM has used ultimatims and the take away on her for months now and she falls for it everytimes really make me sick.
When you think about it he is using the Plan B approach... You do what I want then I will give you what you want... When you talk about not going through with promises to leave husband then it's take away time... Get out, go home to him, screw you, _uck you, Liar, your using me, blah, blah...
This OM is one sorry worthless scum bag...

Dazed:

I continue to be impressed with how good a job you are doing with your DD. Continue to be the stable one and everything will be alright. It would almost be funny to watch your WW and the criminal go at each other if you end up divorced. It is like justice will be served to both of them and you sit back and smile. Not to say that you want that to happen but they are made for each other in your WW's present state of mind.

Don't give up and don't be too available to her. Look at the 180 degree approach and start doing things she wouldn't expect of you. Be less available and even act like you are going forward without her. She will notice the difference and it may make her nervous.

TooSoon