I have talked with Steve Harley eight times at 185 dollars a call. You know how many times that Steve has told me to change my approach? None...
Yes, I have told him about WW coming and going, and moving out and moving in. Sleeping on the couch and her angry tyraids.
He has suggested I find a family counselor for daughter and I to go to. Eventually have WW join us.

You know I have some comments to make myself.
Why is it that when I report what Dr. Harley tells me to do or when I report something positive that most of you all go "dark" on me?
When I post bad news one day later... Everyone comes out to tell me how I am doing everything wrong and how painful this is and basically how stupid and weak I am...

You know I maybe doing everything wrong. I am no expert and I came here for help. I do what others suggest and spend more money calling Dr. Harley and he tells the same thing each time. I have sent him emails telling him the latest events, I have copied him post from this thread. His advice is always the same thing. I ask him each time if I should change my approach. Should I change my posistion and plan. He just says, "How is your love bank"?
"Do you think you can continue"?
He says that my message must be consistant. He does agree that WW must see a conselor for help. That is his latest suggestion. I add guidence and conseling to develope a plan for our recovery to my mantra.
He says that WW is an addict. Just like a drug addiction she can't stop feeding the addiction. She needs help or treatment if you will to break free from her addiction.

Let me ask the question to you all... How do people that are addicts recover? How do they de-tox and break the addiction? Do they do this on there own or with help?
If left to there own devices would they ever get help with out totally destroying themselves?
You tell me me what you think about this. Keep in mind the addiction theory Dr. Harley's, not mine.

Yes- He knows how unstable OM is and also WW. He says that is what makes my situation more difficult.
She must believe in the potential of our future while see there is no future with OM.
He has said from day one that this affair will not last. It will die, and when it does I need to be the loving, caring, attractive, choice for her.
That is exactly what SH said. He has said, many times that I just need to hang around long enough for her to see that I have changed and maintain the same consistant broken recorded approach while running out the clock on the affair. SH says it will die and doing a good plan A and getting her to see you as attractive will pressure the affair. Pressure will mount as she drags her feet and fails to meet all of his requirements. As time goes by and she continues to fail to leave me, OM will only love bust more and more until he blows clear up and she fog will be clear.
SH thinks that she is on the edge and the affair is "done". SH says that the affair is coming apart and the pressure by OM is making him look less and less attractive.

To be blunt, I have not each time said, well Steve... How about my daughter... How specifically do I protect her?

I would really like to hear specifically in detail how I would protect daughter with either plan A or B...
Like many of you have posted that I am just not doing anything right when it comes protecting my daughter, so please help me...
Tell me what you would do and maybe even give examples of how I can work this with SH advice.

Dazed-

Bluntly...I go dark after you post your advice on what SH says simply because I do not personally agree with his advice to you. So, rather than contradict and argue with someone who has more experience than myself, and rather than confuse you with conflicting advice...I simply back off so that you can follow his advice instead of what I personally feel you should be doing.

But...I'll go ahead and give you my own advice on your situation. Feel free to disregard as you like with no hard feelings on my side of things.

You deal with an addict by making their life so painful due to their addiction that they CHOOSE to make the changes they need to in order to improve their lives...till they choose to end the addiction. Once they choose, you take all possible steps to assist their recovery...by preventing their contact with their addiction until LONG after withdrawl ends...by giving them the tools and help they need to stay clean.

In your case, that crisis I refer to was two-fold...the divorce, and her being removed from the house. It created her crisis...but her subsequent return and dropping the divorce proceedings removed that crisis BEFORE it began to really force changes in her behavior. Without the crisis, without the 'pain to change'...she immediately resumed her addictive ways.

From my perspective...AND I KNOW IT'S CONTRADICTORY TO SH's ADVICE...I personally think that you're in a situation where you need to plan A just a little more...to remind her of what she's losing after her little escape with OM this weekend...and then resume D proceedings and go to plan B.

Again...a CLEAR plan B...with a new letter reminding her of what she's got to do. Making it clear what she's going to lose by her continued contact with OM.

And...begin preparing yourself to the possibility that she may indeed be ready to go to OM on a semi-permanent basis. That she may well have to go and be 'hurt' by OM before she'll see her mistakes...then THAT will be her crisis to initiate her change.

I apologize, but as I said, the reason I don't post much is that I happen to have a different view of what you need to do than the approved MB way...and I didn't want to create more conflict and confusion for you.

here is what and why we're frustrated dazed...how I get this.

ex: a patient has been diagnosed with an aneurysm in his head. he has to get it fixed, or he can die. he also has been seeing a gastroenterologist (stomach) doc for his acid indigestion that's painful and really bugging him.

he's scheduled to go to the neurologist to get the surgery for the aneurysm. as he's being administered anesthesia for the surgery, he yells, "STOP...I NEED TO FIRST COUNSEL WITH MY STOMACH DOC BEFORE I DO ANYTHING ELSE...I NEED HIS TAKE ON THIS...I CAN'T GO THRU WITH IT."

You take the RIGHT PROBLEMS DAZED TO THE RIGHT PROFESSIONAL...just like in the story above, the man surely will not live if he listens only to his stomach doc and doesn't get the surgery advised by his neurologist right? just like you won't get a healed family if ALL YOU DO IS LISTEN TO ONE PROFESSIONAL.

we have specialists in life we seek for all areas. You don't call a plumber for an electrical problem. You don't ask a marriage and infidelity expert about matters pertaining to CHILD PSYCHOLOGY OR STATE LEGAL MATTERS EITHER..

this is why I am upset with you.

steve and the harleys are great. awesome stuff. but there is a time when you take the advice given you and you do the best you can...and now you have to really choose whom to listen to. WHO CAN HELP YOU PROTECT YOUR DD? IT's surely not steve. He can't get in front of a judge and show the inconsistencies and lies and abuse that your ww is dishing out to you and above all, your dd. He can't do that. but YOUR LAWYER CAN. and your dd needs counseling so much now...so much because nothing's changed in her precious little life. her mom is outta control. that's however gotten worse btw...and her dad does not follow thru with advice given...

you don't follow your lawyers' advice...you just follow mb advice...which is ONLY ADVICE...it can't change your legal status..it can't change custody status.

your ww was totally playing you and I saw it from the time you posted about her "come to jesus" moment at the courthouse. she once again did not face her pain. she was NOT allowed to do it. she was prevented. you so wanted the recovery, whether false or not, without her doing A SINGLE THING to show her sincerity.

I am sorry to say that I get really really upset when I read your posts here. why? I lived this. I had a really outta control xh. I did plan a for six mos. and did all great. really great. my xh briefly moved home, he did a COMPLETE false recovery complete wtih reading mb principles, downloading things off internet, throwing a huge xmas party at our home for friends and business acquaintences. and even faked a phone call/NC call to Ow.

and just like your ww, he had a complete meltdown within 2 weeks and left ...except I was one to leave permanently b/c he had during last explosion, some moments where he hurt me and it transcended from his being verbally abusive to physically. I packed my suv and left with my son that day.

your ww is out of control. my xh never felt the full force of either exposure or pain b/c he had so much money. it could shield him from his hitting bottom. and sadly to this day, he has not hit it yet.

your ww keeps using men to keep her actions from causing her pain. she jumps from you to om to keep from having pain. if the om says to get away from you and to make a decision, she tosses dazed under a bus. if dazed is taking ww to court for custody of dd and to get peace in his family home for once, then ww tosses om under the bus.

but her colors to me have shown. she was out having "family dinner" pretend night with om and his parents. as if she's the dil. I think she's suffering from more than an addiction. I think she has mental problems dazed.

as I've posted before to many...in this country, we're so eager to give this person a label to explain their behavior and give that person a label to explain his destructive actions...why? because NOBODY WANTS TO BELIEVE THAT A PERSON COULD WILLINGLY DO SUCH BAD AND HORRID THINGS...so we say so and so is an addict. Or they're suffering from this or that. when in reality, their MORAL COMPASS IS SPINNING AND THEY LIKE THE WAY IT FEELS.

You can't help an "ADDICT" if you prefer to call her that rather than a willful and vindictive and abusive woman who is cheating on her husband and mentally abusing her child.

You can help this so called "addict" by ALLOWING HER NEGATIVE ACTIONS TO BE FELT BY HER AND NOT GIVING HER MORE GOOD FEELING DRUG TO KEEP HER FROM FEELING THE PAIN. it's like giving methadone to a heroin addict. nothing is the cure...unless the addict goes cold turkey and then goes thru the withdrawal willingly.

willingly.

simply put, your ww has to see and feel the pain she has created. she has not so far. and she's destroying your dd and your family and you.

that means imho, plan b and immediate custody hearing.

in my state, we can get an emergency hearing within 24 hours if there is a dire circumstance. can in most states btw.

now's the time. and what a consequence? the ww is gone and left without a trace with her lover. abandoned her child. it's time to change custody.

I'd personally hire today a pi and get recon on the ww and her lover. they are having imho probably a good time while you and your precious dd worried over her absence.

it is NOT RIGHT that a mother or a father disappears into thin air.

it is not right.

and it's time to set things straight and realize who it is to seek for what problem.

if you lose custody, it isn't steve's fault. it would be dazed's fault. why? b/c dazed took steve's advice over that of the attorney.

and today, save that money and make the call to your attorney. and yea, imho..

and it is MY OPINION>>>

he go to plan b immediately.

I feel completely at a loss to advise Dazed any further.
Its like KNOWING a train wreck is going to happen and being unable to do anything about it.

This situation drains me. I can only imagine what it is like to live with. My heart goes out to you, Dazed. You've been a strong fighter.

The real tragedy and victim is that little girl who is living in this tornado. My heart breaks for her.

I stand firmly behind what I have told you before Dazed -- There is NOTHING you can do to change her path. And where you stand while she goes down this path is up to you and your advisors -- Plan A or Plan B -- as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter.

She's not going to return to you because of your actions. She's going to return to you after she goes through the rest of her steps. And you have no control over those steps.

She has to go to OM fully. She has to experience and understand that the relationship with him is not her Nirvana. She needs to learn for herself that this is just another ordinary relationship full of problems. He's not her "destiny", He's not her "soulmate", He's not her "hero".

Their relationship will end. Its doomed. I fully agree with Steve that its over, its just a matter of time. She needs to understand the truth behind it all.

And you keep cushioning that from happening. Oh well. I personally think you should EMBRACE her discovering OM's faults. But you keep wanting to prevent her from spending time with him. Your call.

So, IF she ever gets to the point of figuring out how ugly OM is (I mean on the inside...) then she still has to face herself.

I can give you more idea of what that entails later....gotta run for now...

Dazed,
Okay....so have you seen or heard from WW yet today?

I can see why you feel the way you do...there seem to be two different camps here pulling you one way or the other. I do think that the MB principles are good ones; but that is all they are. Ideas for you to put into practice as warrants in your situation. No matter who says what, in reality it is you that has the final decision on what you do and for how long. What you have gotten here are just opinions....from the myriad of posters and SH. It is not a cookbook, and even if it were, all good cooks know how to tweek a recipe to suit their taste.

I have a question for you....why do you allow your ww to treat you and your daughter this way? If it is in the hopes that she will come home; well you see how that worked. So now what does Dazed want to do? Don't say well so and so said I should do this....what to YOU want? Do you want things to continue the way they are? How much abuse, and it is ABUSE, are you willing to take or subject your daughter to in order to continue as is?

I see that vicious circle going here of continuing to do the same thing over and over in the hopes that it will work. Has it?

What has happened with all the good advice that you said that you were going to follow up on? Getting the GC report after meeting with D, getting D and yourself into counselling, filing the restraining order against OM, which would have been real useful about now. And one more question....how do you think all of this would look to social services were they to investigate YOU as a parent? Wandering spouses have been known to hire cut throat lawyers to make the other parent look bad...please don't believe for an instant that it could not happen to you.

Right!


Have you done this??


I cannot speak for others Dazed. As I have said everytime I have posted...you have doen an incredible Plan A. It has been much better than my own. As far as I am concerned, you have done better than almost every other person I have seen on here in over 4 years.


Again, I cannot speak about other posters here...but I have agreed with SH. This is MB. You are following it to a "T". As SH said, if your love bank is in danger, than you are going to need to go to Plan B. But right now, you say you are still good. So, the plan continues.


It is an addiction Dazed. As you have said. And with any addiction, the key is getting the addict away from the source of their addiction. Counseling, confrontation, groups, etc all help. Detox centers. And sometimes even having them be shunned (Plan B) by family and friends. Many ways. The Harley's plan directly deals with this addictive behavior.


And I agree...and have agreed with this assessment!!


Okay Dazed...again, I will not speak for any of the other posters. I am only speakign for me.

I know about what you are doing with Plan A. And I agree with Steve...it is working!!! And I think most here think that also. The issue that has been raised is your WW abusing your DD...and make no mistakes, your DD is abused!

So, the question I asked and many have asked is...what does Steve say when he tells you to continue with the Plan A...in regards to your daughter. All that you just typed was completely correct according to SH and I totally agree. But the issue I wanted to knwo about is...while doing this, what about your daughter? What does Steve recommend?

The only answer I got to that is that he recommends family counseling. First, have you done that???

Second, is that all he thinks you should do? Is he fully aware of your wife's abuse of your daughter?

The reason I (and others) ask these questions is for our own edification. I can help you along with this Plan A...as I agree with almost all that you have done and are doing!! You have done MUCH right!! I just wanted to know what the expert said on how to protect your DD from the abuse of her mother. Right now, all I know is Steve said to get her into counseling.

I also counseled with Steve. And while my wife wasnt abusive to the kids, I still had Steve help me figure out the proper way to help protect my kids from her behavior (her leaving us, her shacking up with the OM, etc). He helped me come up with the way to do visitation for her, how to talk to the kids about any of this, how to set up proper ways for my wife to interact with the kids and be their mother while it not screwing up my Plan A or Plan B.

So, as I said...I am NOT one of the ones saying you are screwing up. You have done VERY well! And I too believe that your wife's affair is on its death bed. But, it might take months to die. And I would like to know what Steve says that should be done in regards to your daughter and the continued abuse she has received.

Dazed, you are doing great! This is YOUR war to fight. We are just here to help. In the end, it is you that has to make the decisions! And you have done very well so far!

Please let me know more about the specifics with your daughter. I am onboard 100% with what SH has stated about everythign else. But, I really would like to know what he thinks about how best to protect your DD and still be able to do your Plan A effectively.

In His arms.

again...

LAWYERS ARE IN CHARGE OF LEGAL AGREEMENTS...SUCH AS CUSTODY..and can keep an abusive parent from harming an innocent child and can also keep an innocent child away from destructive behaviors thru court hearing and discovery and rulings.

MARRIAGE COUNSELORS ARE MARRIAGE COUNSELORS...they help people wtih marriage problems. they help guide people to good decisions based on reasearch and experience.

THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT AREAS AND TWO DIFFERENT NEEDS.

but DAZED NEEDS HELP LEGALLY TO KEEP HIS DD SAFE.

I stick with my opinions posted.

I think plan A has gone on too long and has enabled the ww as of now.

I think dd needs protection from her mom who passively as well as aggressively abuses the child.

I think the ww needs to feel fallout and pain from her actions if the ww is to ever feel change.

his ww is doing what she wants to do...nobody ever says that here..

THE WS DOES WHAT MAKES THEM FEEL GOOD AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO PERIOD. ADDICTION OR NOT. THEY DO IT. AND THEY WILL CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIORS WHEN THE PAIN OVERCOMES THE FEEL GOOD VIBE.

***You can help this so called "addict" by ALLOWING HER NEGATIVE ACTIONS TO BE FELT BY HER AND NOT GIVING HER MORE GOOD FEELING DRUG TO KEEP HER FROM FEELING THE PAIN. it's like giving methadone to a heroin addict. nothing is the cure...unless the addict goes cold turkey and then goes thru the withdrawal willingly.***

Couldn't have said it better myself.

No addict stops their drug of choice unless and until the pain outweighs the pleasure. And as long as someone is there to cushion their fall and rescue them each time, they will never, ever stop.

Sad, but true.
Mulan

Just Peachy,

I dont agree that plan A has gone on too long. Plan B is entirely for if Dazed is losing his love for his wife. End of story! As SH said to me once "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?" The extension of that is that in much of this, the BS doesnt get to do what is fair to them. They many times have to do somethign that is actually unfair to the BS.

I agree that the lawyer deals with legal..counselor deals with their stuff. But here's the rub. You have to make them work together. SH knows the legal aspects of this. During my counseling with him, he told me the times and issues I needed to take to my attorney. And my attorney, once I told him what my agenda was, referred me back to the counselor for things that were outside his purview.

That is why I have asked about what SH says about his daughter. I believe Dazed's Plan A is working. I believe Dazed is not ready for Plan B as he stil lhas love for his wife...and Plan A is still working. I believe Dazed isnt ready for Plan D!

But in that, I just want to know what SH's plan is for protecting Dazed's DD. Right now, all I have heard is get her into counseling.

Sure, Dazed could go into Plan B, file for divorce and custody again, try to get full custody and pull his daughter away from his wife...and Dazed go dark. Does that help him get where he is trying to go? His wife is ALL over the place. She is a mess! It is BECAUSE of Plan A!! His wife WANTS him to end things, wants hi mto make the decision. Why? Because she cant make the decision...and really doesnt want to end it deep down.

Guys and gals, this really isnt any different than my sitch was...except for the abuse. And everyone here is right in saying that the abuse MUST end. But that doesnt mean snatching defeat from the jaws of victory! Right as his Plan A is doing exactly what was predicted, many here want him to jump ship. Why?

I know it is because of the abuse to his daughter. So, instead of undermining his Plan A, let's focus on what should be done for his daughter. He has his plan and he is following it. What we need to do is help him do so AND protect his daughter. That is why I want to knwo what SH has to say on that.

I know many think his wife needs to hit bottom. I agree!! But it cant be Dazed forcing her to the bottom. She has to do that on her own...just as she has to return on her own. Any of his actions of Plan B and the like should only be made in regards to what is best for him and his daughter...not on its effects on his WW and if it will hasten her hitting bottom.

As Steve told me once "you cant shorten this, but you sure can lengthen it."

Let's let Dazed finish his mission. Let's help him in the meantime protect his daughter.

In His arms.

Mortar...

I loveya...and you're usually right..

however, this time

I BEG TO DISAGREE.

this is being twisted into something it is not. it is for a protection of a child now...not a selfish and ww.

when steve says do you want to be happy or stay married? he wants you to say stay married. but how about the question...do you want to keep a ww happy and plan a her or protect your child and put up legal barriers to keep the child from the harm and abuse? which do you pick then.???huh?

My views will not be bended on this.

his dd cannot be helped if she is allowed to be around a woman who is treating her poorly...endangering her with high speed escapades in a vehicle...calling her ugly names and demeaning the child...and promising her a family and a mom and dad together only to leave once more abandoning an already abandoned feeling child.

plan a does not help in this area.

sorry.

i will stick to my guns.

dazed, you know my thoughts.

again, steve IS NOT AN ATTORNEY...HE IS A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR...he does NOT KNOW EACH STATE LAWS AND TWISTS AND TURNS...he is NOT FOR LEGAL ADVICE..

while he can give it...I consider that a slippery slope professionally...i would not give advice out of my own personal area of interest incidentally.

dazed, I can't help you any more than the words I've given you.

You know when you see a guy that beats his wife physically no one would say she should plan A him and try to get him to see what he would be missing. People would tell her she needs to go to counseling to find out why she thinks it is OK to take this kind of abuse. I look at this situation with dazed as almost the same thing, why do you think it is OK for a woman to abuse you like this?

Can you imagine what kind of woman you would have even if you would win? If she became unhappy in the marriage she has learned that it is OK to go out and screw other guys and her husband will not do anything about it. He will wait and then she can go out and try other men. If she finds a better one (one she thinks is better) dazed will wait until she knows for sure.

Please take a good look at yourself dazed. Are you that afraid of being alone in your life that you figure even hel! is better than the unknown? I use to live in fear in my marriage and it was miserable.

Even Dr. Harley has said he would divorce rather than go through the pain of infidelity and trying to rebuild. I am not saying you should divorce your wife but you need to ask yourself what you are teaching your wife. Your terms should be that she stops the affair gets help and starts showing you and your daughter respect and never disrespect you like this again.

You should seek individual counseling. Please try and find out why you have to be a martyr or you think this kind of abuse is OK. Just my opinion but with what you are doing even if you win you will lose.

Quick Update:
WW came home yesterday at 5PM.
Daughter had a friend over from the night before so both me and daughter pretty much ignored WW. She asked me a couple questions about her mother calling and about the police looking for her.
Obviously telling that OM's mommy had been in contact with her and or OM.
So I pretty much went on as if she was not there at all. After about thirty minutes, me and daughter left to take her friend back home. Me and daughter did not go back home for about three hours. I did call home and tell WW to not expect us back anytime soon and also telling her that we were going out to eat and she need not wait for us.

Actually WW called two times wanting to know when we were going to be home.
When we got home, me and daughter went on with out WW. Pretty much ignoring her.
WW was humbled and started following me around the house.
She asked to speak with me and after I did some laundry I agreed to talk to her.
She confirmed that her mother called OM's mom and told her everything about stopping the divorce and coming home. Also all the other stuff mentioned earlier.
OM was really, really mad about the divorce thing. WW tells me that she lied to him and told him that she had lost custody at the temporary orders hearing and only came home because she wanted to see daughter. I don't know how she got him to believe that. Anyway... WW says that OM was really mad. OM says that his mom told him that MIL thinks that I am a great guy and WW has lied about most of the bad stuff about me. OM says that he was wrong about WW. That she was must not have been ready for a divorce and maybe that BS was not all that bad and not ready for it either.
OM says that he don't know what to believe. WW says that he was really mad and yelled at her and gave her another list of demands. 1) To go home and wait for me to leave the house and take her stuff and run. 2) Stay in the apartment or just move in with him starting right now.

WW said she knows what she is doing is wrong and she has been so selfish and hurt me so much. Her friend told her that Satan has her heart and she is an adultress and needs to go home before BS will not have you.
She agreed that she thought she could let him down easy but could not stay away from him.
She said this morning she knows that she must stop seeing him forever or leave.

More later....

This is what you said about Harley's advice to continue Plan A.


And as long as you keep answering you are OK...then I agree to continue Plan A. However, I do want to make sure you realize that it is your answer to the above question that is guiding the advice you are receiving. Not vice versa.

I am rather new in here and have no personal experience to offer you in the situation you have found yourself. I have not abandoned your thread nor my support of you. I tend to stick to more of the legal advice and since that is over I haven't had much to say and I don't think you've asked much (mostly just updates).

Admittedly, I was distraught at your actions at the courthouse....you had a custody order and possession of the house. You threw in your chips and now you are back at square one (though OM is PO'ed and out of money to help her file again - there's always positives). BUT SO WHAT. I am not going to hammer you on that mistake because we ALL made a ton of mistakes when dealing with our WW's. Like Mortarman said...all in all you've done a tremendous job. It's a protracted script but the same script all over again.

I am with Mortarman and Please Help (though I wish he would direct his longing for yesteryear elsewhere) on this one. I firmly believe you are going to get your marriage back. I personally experienced the reconciliation of a marriage when all was seemingly so lost. You are the better man here and I believe you will prevail....eventually.

I quoted the above language to emphasize that IMHO Dr. Harley's advice will not change until your attitude about the above questions change. I believe you are either a glutton for punishment or a saint to have not waivered on your answers to the above questions from Steve for so long and in spite of WW's actions. IMO, he will not tell you to go to Plan B until he is assured from you that you can't go on. So the posters here can yell Plan B all they want but until YOU "give in" to the above questions the professional will unlikely give you other advice. "Giving in" is not a sign of weakness on your part. The questions are not a test of your manliness. Just maybe some self preservation of your dignity and integrity as well as protective of daughter is in order...what do you think?. I happen to sense a little more hostility from you in the above post...maybe you are nearing that breaking point. I, personally would be (you asked for our opinions). But I am not you.

I will point out that MM said above that this is really out of your control. How long do you intend to answer the above quesiton that you are still willing to fight or that your love bank remains in the positive? Perhaps you need to start thinking of a timeline for yourself. I ask you to begin posting your feelings on this subject and let those with experience assess and guide you.

Further, remember, recovery is not easy either. You need to preserve more love than you may think to handle the bitterness, blame and resentment YOU will likely feel when this is all said and done. For example, you need the emotional fortitude and "love" to protect yourself from your taker popping up and enabling you to consider having a revenge affair. Also, the longer the affair the longer the withdrawal. Your WW is going to be a basketcase for quite awhile. Recovery ain't no bed of roses. The more you endure up front the more difficult recovery will be for YOU. So it's not just bottling up a little love for later...you will need to conserve a lot of your emotional stregth as well. Not to mention DD12's emotional strength...can she endure much more?...have you assessed that?

Ultimately this is your life. You are at perhaps THE major crossroads of your life. This is your defining moment. Once again, your answers to the above question is guiding the marriage counseling advice you are receiving not vice versa. You call the shots and your counselor advises accordingly. I will support you either way.

With geniune love and concern,

Mr. Wondering

JustPeachy,

If you look at what I said, I did agree with you on the daughter. I have asked the last three posts on what exactly SH says should be done concerning Dazed's DD while he Plan As, considering the abuse his wife has dished out to DD.

Nowhere in here have I said that this abuse can or should continue! I agree that protecting his daughter is FIRST priority. What I dotn necessarily agree with is that protecting her has to mean abandoning Plan A. That is why I have asked repeatedly WHAT SH has to say about this. Right now, I have only heard that Dazed should have her in counseling. And after counseling with SH many times, I know there is more to it than that. So, I would liek to know what SH is advising Dazed on protecting his daughter.

I agree the abuse must end. I do not necessarily agree that Plan A should end. If Dazed cannot protect her AND Plan A...then yes, I would agree with you. But either SH doesnt know about the abuse and continues to counsel Plan A, or he knows about it and has told Dazed what to do but it hasnt been done yet.

This is what I am trying to find out. Strictly for the marriage, he is doing exactly as he should. But, since I didnt have to deal with an abusive situation (although there was soem isolated incidents of physical abuse on me), I would like to understand SH's approach to that under Plan A.

So, basically I agree on the daughter. But I disagree on Plan A as long as Plan A can be done while protecting his daughter.

Dazed...please...spend the next post NOT talking about your WW, but instead go into everything you have discussed with SH about your daughter and what he advises. Thanks.

In His arms.

This is EXACTLY right!

In His arms.

Just read your update.

Good...now stick to your plan and make sure daughter and you only look to see if her actions match her words.

No more false hopes.

Mr. Wondering

how does this plan help his dd?

I ask you that?

it's paining me to see this endless cycle going on and on without anything done to make the ww want to change herself.

she can "say" what she's doing is wrong. she can understand it's wrong...but until SHE DOES SOMETHING ABOUT IT...it's nowhere. DAZED CANNOT MAKE ANYBODY DO ANYTHING JUST AS I OR ANY OF US HERE CAN MAKE ANOTHER PERSON WANT TO DO SOMETHING...THE PERSON HAS TO WANT TO CHANGE THEMSELVES.

and it's my opinion otherwise. that plan A is at the end here.

she's off spouting and saying same things.

and some here are saying that plan a is good! great! even now...and yes, we all can finally agree there is ABUSE GOING ON...but what's getting done about it? a counselor is the answer...

one part of the answer.

how about space between the abuser and their objec (s) of abuse?

how about that one?

do you keep a child in the home of a child abuser? i ask you this one.

I think ww is cycling up again and will become even more destructive now.

just my .02

and no, I don't wear rose colored glasses anymore.

Peachy -- DD is not in the home of an abuser. DD is in the home of Dazed, her "SuperDad." He is going to have to be the buffer between WW and DD.

Thats how he protects her.

WW no longer gets to spend time alone with DD. WW no longer gets to have any say or control of DD.

Dazed -- you did a great job of separating them on Sunday night.

WW is going to continue floundering around and making mistakes.

Keep being consistant. I simply think you need to stop seeking her out and looking for opportunities to Plan A her.
[color:"red"] ** Use the chances that come your way, but stop pursuing.** [/color]

Let her continue her self-destruction. Be there, be consistant, and stay out of the way.

Take comfort in the fact that its simply a matter of time.

Daughter was obviously not very cheerful Friday night. Me and daughter watched movies to try and have fun together and take our mind off of WW.

Saturday morning I let Daughter sleep in while i spoke with the police and MIL about WW. Daughter was feeling down and not so good once she got up.
WW had promised her on Thursday that they would go to visit our old town on Saturday. Daughter says they were to make a day out of going to see our old neighbors and friends where we used to live.
Daughter was disappointed that her mother let her down. I helped daughter think up some ideas to do instead. She contacted her old best friend from our old town and we had her over for the night. I took them out for supper and we rented some movies. Daughter really enjoyed seeing her old friend and I felt good about doing things with daughter and cheering her up. Sunday the two girls rode bikes and had fun together.
Friday i had a good talk with Daughter about reacting to her mother. Daughter felt bad about becoming so angry with WW. We talked about her feelings and how to express them without anger and violence.
She said that they have been working on that at leadership class on Wednesday's and she immediately thought about that after she got so upset with WW.
My daughter is very steady and has a good understanding what is going on.
A while back I told her that she was an Oak tree. She says what dad? I said, you are as strong as an Oak tree. You know when a storm hits your town and only strong trees like Oak trees don't bend in the wind. That is you honey. I am proud of you for knowing what is right and wrong and being strong enough to stand up for it.
Daughter says, dad. Can I still be an Oak tree even if I am missing some branches? I said, sure you can. Missing branches and leaves is sad but some times storms do that. You know what though? When the storm is gone and the sun comes back out the tree grows new branches and leaves.
We will do the same honey. When you feel tired, hurt, weak or confused about anything, daddy is here.
Daughter has been reluctant to speak much about her mother. She knows what her mother is doing is wrong. She has acted out at times I believe to get her mothers attention. She has pressured her mother to prove herself.
Daughter is not going to easily let her mother back in with out proof.
Daughter wants her mother back but is not going to accept WW as her mother. She has been very hard on WW and continues to be even harder.

WW asked me last night about Daughter and how daughter looks at her with shame in her eyes, and now anger, resentment and hate.
I told WW, Daughter is waiting on you to reach her. She is not going to come to you. You must go to her and prove yourself.
WW started to get angry with me and then said, you are probably right. I get mad when I think that you have to tell me what to do with our daughter. The girl that I raised for 12 years and new everything about. I guess you are the one that has been around while I have been a bad mom. I have not been there for her and you have. I am a bad mother. I said, you know that daughter keeps her feelings pretty bottled up and you will have to work to reach her. Not the other way around.

I have interviewed two family counselors. One recommended by the church and another from a family counseling group here in town.
I have told daughter that we both are going to go visit with a person to help us understand our feelings and thoughts.
Also, told her that we are also going to start going to Sunday service again with or with out mother. I suggested we go to a couple different churches to kind of check them out. Daughter has friends that go to a couple different ones in the area. I figured we would start there.

ok dazed. you do what you believe is right. and your choices are good...

except for part...

that your dd is hurt.

I suggest you choose a phd...somebody that can provide mental as well as spiritual help. I have had both christian counselor and a psychologist. the latter helped me incredibly. she was/is awesome.

and while it's good that you're going to church...it's still not answering the question.

daughter can only be "buffered" so long..I mean...ignoring the mom in the same house? is that healthy? shuffling dd around so that she doesn't have to interact wtih a toxic ww?

I am keeping with my views on this.

despite whatever is written to buff over the rough parts to make them and his life seem more well..palatable.

My ideas may not be the "popular" one here...but they are what I view as wise and moral.

You're gonna do what you want to do. and that's that.

I just pray that things go as you wanted. Just that I sincerely have my doubts as I have stated to you on many many occasions. and I pray your dd gets away from her abuser until said time the "abuser" or "mom" or whatever you call her, decides SHE IS THE SOURCE OF ALL PAIN and changes. if she truly wants to change at all.