WW says that she was given a list of demands by OM...was this a written list or verbal? If written...then ask to see it. If verbal....hmmm....do you believe her or is she just telling you this to appease you all the while knowing that if she succeeds she will not feel the consequences of her actions.

And while I agree that D is not in the home of an abuser...she is being subjected to one. What are you going to do Dazed to stop this?

And what are the consequences going to be for your wife spending the weekend with another man? At this point she thinks she has done it and gotten away with it....right? Hmmm....so a few apologies on her part and things will be okay? You need a plan of action...an if/then plan and one that you are willing to stick to. As you have been told many times....if she feels no consequences than why should she stop? But what those should be, only you can decide.

There are other sights with valuable information as well that might help give you some ideas...Divorce Busting, Save Your Marriage Central. I am sure that there are others, these are just two that I know about.

First off, let me say...I LOVE Plan B. I love it. I think it is the best part of MB! Now that being said, let me ask a question. What part of Plan B or Plan D is meant to change the WS? That its intent is to change the WS? NEITHER of them are there for that intent. Plan D is to move on with your life...divorce! Plan B is to pull back and go no contact in order to save love for the WS. Plain and simple!

Second thing I wanted to say...Dazed cannot make his wife change. Cant do it. All he can do is change and then let her see that and give her the opportunity to change. I have seen so many situations on here. Dazed's is really not new. I have seen Plan As go on longer, with even more issues...and the couple still make it.

Plan A is for Dazed to change, to expose and to make himself an alternative. Plan B has NOTHING to do with his WW. It has everythign to do with Dazed.

Personally, SH is right. There have been changes. Read his entire thread. He has changed. His wife has changed. It may seem like the same mantra, but it isnt.

His wife took off this weekend because why? Because the OM was losing control over the situation. Why? Because of Dazed's Plan A. The OM found out he has been lied to by Dazed's WW. Why was he being lied to? Because of Dazed's Plan A!! The wife is being verbally abused by OM and being love busted all over the place by him. Why? Because of Dazed's Plan A.

Peachy...this Plan A stuff is very counter-intuitive. Believe me, I made many mistakes with Plan A before getting it right. And while I understand it more now...I still dont have the same understanding as SH.


But you just said above that Dazed is supposed to do something to force Mrs. Dazed to change!?!?! She is a WAYWARD WIFE! She is an addict. She has NO IDEA what she is doing. She is more confused than Dazed.


I know, Peachy. But Plan A is at an end when it isnt having an effect and/or Dazed is running out of love for his wife. He has told SH that he isnt running out of love. And if you look at his thread, his WW is very much being affected by his Plan A. It isnt an overnight thing. It isnt something you can pin down to an exact day or time. It will go as long as it goes.


No she isnt. Re-read his thread. It has changed. Sure she is goign back and forth. But the things she is saying have changed. The way she is around Dazed has changed. Dazed has changed!!! It is moving, albeit slowly.


Look, the abuse of the daughter is what we all are talking about here. And I agree, it must end and Dazed must do something about that. Which is why I have asked what SH said about his daughter and protecting her.

On Dazed and him being abused...look, the WS ALWAYS abuses the BS on some level. It is all abuse. Now, if there is physical abuse, then that must end immediately. But the emotional things she has done are just a part of this. it sucks. It isnt right. But she is an addict and addicts act this way. They mistreat the ones they love. it is a part of the equation. Now, Dazed can protect his daughter. And he can do so in Plan A or Plan B.

Dazed can also protect himself...but only in Plan B!! Only if he wants to stop fighting for his marriage. Only if protecting himself is more important than saving his marriage. That time may come...it will come soon, once his love bank begins to run dry. But as long as he is fighting for his marriage, then he will be abused by his wife on some level or another.

Dazed has done well with some of the abuse. In the beginning, he allowed her to talk anyway she wanted to him and to DD. He has put his foot down many times on that lately. He has calmly told her that wont be allowed, and hung up the phone or left the room.


Again, this is THE question!! Not Plan A, not Plan B. Wha tdoes the expert say on how to protect DD and still continue to do what SH is counseling Dazed to do. THAT is the question, and I agree it must be taken care of immediately by Dazed.


She may be cycling up...a part of the rollercoaster. Dazed must be ready. But, the Plan A is working. He will know when she doesnt want this marriage anymore when she isnt home and the "cycling up" stops. it is at that point he will know that Mrs. Dazed no longer cares.

But, my bet is with the fact that they both the OM and Mrs. Dazed are looking at each other as lying cheaters...abusers. They both now have the rose colored glasses off. This relationship is over!! It jsut needs to be buried. Dazed cannot hasten that end. But he can lengthen it.

When the enemy is self-destructing...dont help him!!

In His arms.

I agree!!!!!!!!! Bravo!!!


Excellent advice!

In His arms.

More evidence that she is slowly getting it.

In His arms.

I am glad he is getting help from people who care here..

despite the fact it seems that he is getting different ideas about what is best to do.

it doesn't matter.

my opinion will stay the same.

so stop trying to make me change it.

won't happen.

since everybody is trying to get me to back off...then so be it.

my views may not be "in line' with the harleys thinking now...but it is what I believe to be correct.

and yes...if the ww is in the home, the dd is around her abuser. the ww is still ww and is cruel and hurtful to her own child...

and yes.

to her husband also.

since everybody wants me to bow out, then dazed, you have had my opinions for several months now. and you've not followed it.

that's fine. you do what you will. I hope and pray your sitch turns out positive and will pray for it.

however, sometimes mb is not all encompassing. sometimes we need to seek advice and help from other sources (psychologists, lawyers) to get the correct picture and focus.

in closing to you, I hope and pray you open your mind to a little dazed. your ww is nowhere being a broken woman. her affair is ongoing. and it may go further underground.

keep a careful eye for it and watch out for dd. I am so worried for her. please do not allow her to be hurt anymore.

will continue praying for your family and for a change.

until then, I am who I am. and I believe what I believe.

kindest regards,
peachy

This is all I have to say for protecting DD, I say let the family therapist deal with that part. Let SH deal with the Plan A part. I have to agree that Plan A is working on dazed wife. She is cracking but is heavily addicted. I see no reason for Plan B until Daze can't take it anymore, and or the family thearpist recommends that she, WW, be seperated from DD.

Dazed and all the caring posters:

For what it is worth, MB is not an absolute science, it is a general roadmap on how to deal with infidelity. I took heat 2 years ago from many different MB advocates for going against the MB program and by stairstepping exposure by threatening and/or blackmailing my FWW away from the OM. I used the tactic of promising to bring complete humiliation and pain to my FWW. I promised to ruin her and her lover's reputation and carrears if the affair didn't stop.

I heard the talk, that is not what MB is all about. Personally, I have followed Tony Robbins much longer than Dr. H and MB and I believe Tony Robbins is an expert in human nature too. His theory is simple, when the pain exceeds the pleasure for anybody or any situation, the person will make the needed change.

Let us have a reality check on this thread. All marriages are not savable and all marriages should not be saved. MC don't always save marriages. In many cases, they become divorce Counselors.

Back to Tony Robbins a minute. MM, I am going after you again. Plan B DID NOT save your marriage. It allowed you to cope with the pain your wife was putting you through. What brought your wife back to you was the intense pain that you brought on your wife by taking away her children from her. It was not MB's although MB's gave you the roadmap to make you a better husband and person, to help you cope with the pain of infidelity, and to show you how to protect the little bit of love you had left for your wife by having you implement PLAN B. At the end of the day, your wife could not stand the loss of the custody of her children and the children came with a package, which included you. That is OK because you now have the chance to rebuild your marriage and to fall back in love with each other. MM, you did a good job of making yourself more appealing, taking control by building your custody case, beating your wife in court, taking away the kids from her, and forcing her against her will to accept you as a package with the children, which was perfect and acceptable because it allows for the chance to rebuild love.

Lemon, you threw me into the catagory with everyone on this thread for advising Dazed to go and find out waht Steve H says. I didn't say that. Here is exactly what I said:

Quote to Dazed: "Eventually, you will tire of the abuse and put your foot down. When you do, you will make the difficult decisions to be firm with her and force NC, to give her ultimadum, you or the OM but not both, or to go into Plan B or D".

I say it again to Dazed, When your pain you feel exceeds the rewards of winning your wife back or when the pain imposed on your daughter is greater than the reward of wanting to win your wife back, you will do what it takes to stop the abuse that brings daily pain on you.

It was when I couldn't take the daily pain myself anymore that my FWW and her OM imposed on me that I finally found the strength to say NO MORE. It was then that I said to my FWW. Make your choice, the OM or me and the family. If you choose him, I will bring the ultimate humiliation to you and the OM by fully exposing you and him to your workplace, to your aging mother, and to evey one of your family members. Further, I will do my best to ruin both of your carrears. I told her she has reach the "Y" in the road and the roads do not parallel and they will never meet again. MY pain finally exceeded the rewards and benefits of bringing my wife back to the family. My FWW did not want to endure the humiliation and pain that I was going to bring on her so she gave her two weeks notice to quit her job the next day. Finally, her pain exceeded the benefits of being in the affair.

Ok guys and gals, let me have it for not following the MB concept to the "T". In my case, I followed the concept to the "Y" and I saved my marriage.

TooSoon

Dazed -- there are a LOT of choices and a LOT of methods and a LOT of paths you can choose. Take the good, leave the bad. Only you know all of the details and all of the intricacies of your situation. And only you have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

I hope everyone stays here to give you support, help, and opinions.

Everyone has the conviction of their own experiences. I'm a big supporter of Plan B. Why? Because I know what worked in MY situation, and I feel like I can relate to your WW.

Others relate to YOU, and support Plan A. Thats good too, becsuse they can help and support you through that phase.

Others are looking at your situation from your daughters perspective, and are very concerned for her. Thats a really important piece of this puzzle and you need to consider the impact on her.

There is benefit to you to read what everyone has to say. It will broaden your understanding and give you new ideas.
Even the non-MB ideas are valuable. I think the Tony Robbins philosophies about pain = reason for change are directly related to these affair situations (really interesting stuff TooSoon!)

You are correct...Plan B did NOT save my marriage. Plan B saved ME from throwing my marriage away! Plan A saved my marriage, as you eluded to! Added to that, the Plan A I was doing, coupled with the loss of the kids...was a mighty powerful duo. SH even told me that my best asset was the fact that I had the kids.

But, would my wife have come home JUST with Plan A? Nope. Just with losing the kids? Nope. Just with Plan B? Nope.

That is why I have always said that this is a battle. We have the basic orders of how to fight that battle. But it is up to the individual commanders (BS) on the ground to determine timing and how to implement, based on the conditions at the time.

TooSoon, I think we agree on this. In your case, things were slightly different in approach and timing. But the basics of the MB philosophy remained. And that is when in the fog, only pain will get the WS up and walking out of the fog. The pain of the addiction to the BS. The pain of seeign the BS change and the WS actually wanting them. The pain of possibly losing the BS. The pain of being puleld in two different directions. All of that moves the WS.

In your case, the pain was delivered to her in a little different fashion. But that principles remained. Increase the pain. Show yourself as the attractive alternative. Dont love bust. These are the basics....the individual applications may vary depending on situations.

In His arms.

Yes, I totally agree Lexxxy. There is many methods and paths to take in order to save a marriage. Although many WS do and say the same things, each sitch is unique because of the person.
I also believe the Tony Robbins theory of motivation. (Pain vs. Pleasure) or (Cost vs. benefit). This is correct. Many of us all agree that a WS must have motivation to change.

Everyones opinon is very valueable to me. I have routinely asked for each of you to comment and make suggestions. Even if they vary widely.

Each and everyone of us have learned from our own experiences. That experience is so priceless.
I do very much listen to everyones comments. I use what many of you give me and develope my own approach and plan that best utilizes the help given to me.

I think most can agree that I need to look at several key area's.
1) Health and wellbeing of daughter.
(Protecting daughter from WW), (Continue family concepts)
2) Saving the marriage.
(Ending the Affair and removal of OM), (Recovery and Healing)
I may have left something out, but that is the ten thousand foot overview. There are many steps to take and corrections to make in order to accomplish these high level goals. Also, many times each other overlap.

Recommendations how to get to each goal is great. Just what I need to help me keep focused on the big picture and not blinded by the battle. Thank all of you for that.

In my case what has been working?
Well many things. My plan A has not been a set back and wait passive approach. I have learned to be as aggressive as long as I am not pushing her comfort level and become smothering. It took a little practice to get a feel for what is the comfort level.
I have learned as much about my enemy as possible. Learning what OM does well and does poorly is very key to learning timing and as well as adjustments to my plan.
There are a lot of little things that I have learned how to communicate with WW. Such as; Things in writing have a greater meaning to her than talk. I can speak to her for hours and she retains very little. She loves to read. I can send her little notes with one paragraph on it or 33 page book about obession and she reads it immediately. When she reads it she committs it into memory much easier.

This validates Mortarmans theory about how a WS only gets bits and pieces of what you tell them. Yes, I see this. That is why writing is much more affective.

I also have to remind myself of the time line that I am on.

D-Day was 9-6-06: It has been 19 weeks or less than 5 months.

Found MB on 9-26-06: It has been 16 weeks or four months.

Learned Plan A basic concepts w/out LB's 10-13-06: It has been 14 weeks or less than four months.

Last big LB (Broke up her lunch date with OM and his sister)11-10-06: It has been 10 weeks or less than three months.

Affair started March 2005. They had 26 weeks or 6 months in fantasy island with out light of day.

My marriage prior to affair was just about 13 years. Which was build on a foundation set by two kids at 20 years old.
That marriage was based on love like they all are suppose to be. We both did many things wrong for many years. The focus of WW is of course on all of my time away from the home over the past four years.

I really believe that in order for me and wife to continue we will have to basically separate our past marriage from a new marriage. Salvage is the best word that comes to mind. Basically scrap our previous marriage and salvage the good and throw out the bad.
Like rebuilding or restoring an old house. Starting at the foundation. Repair and replace until there is a strong base that will allow a new frame work to set in place. Then strip out the bad and damaged areas and hold on to and keep the good things that will make the new home unique and special.
Call me crazy but I see rebuilding a marriage with my wife just like saving an old home that is run down and in need of a complete remodel.

Having taken a quick review of the time line and remind ourselves of the damage.

It took me a short period of time to asses where I stood and then some more time to even know where to start.

This assesment was so very painful. I basically had Satan pull the blanket off of me and left my eyes open to what my time away from the house and my marriage had done.

I neglected my wife and hurt our friendship and marriage by being selfish, thoughtless, and just not a good husband. Also, learned that i was guilty of really screwing up the basic concepts of a relationship and love busters came natural to me.
I also identified many area's that my wife was needing help in long before the affair. These issues for her have also lead her down this path she has traveled.

The learning curve for all of this has at times been overwhelming to me. So very steep and painful to learn.

I am not a quiter. One thing I have always been blessed with is perseverance and a strong will. Or you can just call it stubborn and hard headed. Either way I care deeply about my wife and will not let her sink into ****** without doing everything in my power to save her.
My wife and I have been together for all of our adult life. It is not fear of moving on that motivates me. It is the love for the good that I know is still inside that lost woman.
I believe that Plan A was the first approach that I had to take in order to give wife any glimpse of what a new marriage with me could look like.
To overcome years of damage and get WW to believe in a great marriage with me happen overnight... No way I believe that much less expect WW too.
Yes, I have learned so painfully the major things I have done wrong. Even more painfully what WW is doing wrong now.
At times I feel in over my head, yet can't let WW see that.

Then on top of everything else that I have one of the worst OM's there has to be.
A guy that is totally obsessive controlling. A real loser that even when she goes home and wants to end it with him, he continues to manipulate and pull her back. Of course she could just walk away and one day will have to in order for there to be and us again.
He was out to get her out of our marrige from day one when she took a job at the place he worked.

Ending this affair has not been easy by no means.
Let's look at the average affair life span. Harley says the average affair dies 6 months from the light of day.
It has been less than five. Harley says affairs also die with in one to two years from the begining. It will be one year in March.

There has been movement and the affair has taken on much damage. Keep in mind the main attraction to this guy was "happiness" by him being funny and making her laugh.

Now what is keeping her with him. It sure is not funny laughter now. It is control, fear tactic, manipulation, and promises of happiness.

This guy threatens her, threatens to kill himself, begs her to stay, then at first promises of hers to she will, he resorts back to demands and threats.

The fun and good times of fantasy island have to long ago sank. He is telling her that they fun and good times will come back once she leaves me and daughter will come around to him. He tells her that it is her husband that is the problem and once they are together... Fantasy Island will come back.

He is selling her on the past on both fronts.
1) He will go back to good time funny man once she does what he says and she is divorced. he is selling the memory of fantasy island before D-Day.
2) He keeps telling her that BS is a liar and will not change and will go back to his old ways. He is only jealous of the love they have for each other. OM thinks that I owe him for teaching me how to love my wife. WW actually told me that.
OM is selling WW that the past is the way the future will be. NOT the present...

At the end of all this...
I feel there is much work to do. I have only just started.
Yes, I have improvements to make.
Daughter, Myself, and Marriage.

As many of you have pointed out and made suggestions: I need help and encouragement to identify each task, develope a plan, and getting it done.

More later.....Thanks...
Dazed

Dazed, I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you and here to support you. I think you are doing great. I know that you love dd and will do what you need to in order to protect her. You are a strong man (and sometimes stubborn is good!).

good luck and take care,

Dulce

This is EXACTLY right, Dazed!! This is the movement I have spoken of!

Before, OM was the happy guy, the future. Dazed was the nasty past, with all of the things she didnt like about him.

But Plan A has flipped this whole thing upside down...hasnt it Dazed? Now, the OM is the one that isnt funny anymore. Actually, he has begun to be downright scary to Mrs. Dazed. Dazed is now the bright light, the funny one. The guy she sees that has changed. The guy she can collapse on the couch with. Man...things have changed.

Look at 3 months ago. Dazed is telling his wife "I can change...we can have a better marriage." Now, it is the OM who is saying "This can change...we can get the fun back."

Does everyone see the difference?? Dazed WAS on the defensive...now he is on offense. The OM had EVERYTHING going for him it seemed. Now, he is pulling up the past in order to get their future.

And let's look at that for a sec, shall we? The past....

The OM has a very short past, filled with fun times, fantasy island stuff (to borrow from you Dazed). It is a very short period of time. It is filled with very selfish people taking everything they can. It is a meal of candy.

Now look at the Dazed past. Sure, there are the things she left him for...the neglect, the loneliness. But in there are YEARS of good things also. Their daughter. Their first Christmas together. Their first house. DD's first steps. Sure, maybe not as exciting as the "candy" of the OM's past...but the things of Dazed's past are REAL and substantive. They are a meal! And instead of a few months of candy...there are years of history.

And now, the OM wants her to compare their recent "candy" past to Dazed's years of history. It has now come down to this. Sure, there is negative stuff in Dazed's past...the stuff she left him for. But NOW...the OM has shown his negative side.

Dazed is right. This thing has run the average course. The time is just about average in what the Harley's speak of. His whole situation is TYPICAL.

Stick a fork in it...that thing is done! The OM is now playing on Dazed's turf. Dazed is now calling the shots. That is why I have said for everyone to go back and read this whole thread. See the movement. Even the OM has begun to see out of his fog and see that maybe he has been lied to about who Dazed is. And what he is realizing is that he cant compete.

Dazed...you are doing just fine. As always, protect your daughter. And keep on mission. This is almost over with.

And then starts the hard part!

In His arms.

I know you realize the absurdity of this statement but thought I'd have some fun with it.

OM teaching you is like the Lion taking credit for teaching the Gazelle to run fast. The Gazelle's ability and yours to love your wife are inate abilities..it's who you are and always meant to be...you merely got neglectful for a time only to discover your wife had wandered to close to the tall grass outside your watchful care. OM's ability to destroy is his inate ability, like the Lion he searches out the weak ones (whether temporary or permanent weakness - he cares not) to satisfy his innate hunger. Your wife needs to realize herself the danger she is in and be the fasttest Gazelle in the hurd to outrun that beast. Once she does, she'll cleave to the hurd and likely learn the tall grass spells danger.

Not the greatest analogy...tried to work with it but I think you know my point anyway.

Good luck Dazed,

Mr. Wondering

He's like our own Marlin Freakin' Perkins, isn't he?

UPDATE:
Wanted to mention that OM is still pressuring (Love Busting). He instructed WW to leave the house Sunday night and move back to the apartment in order to be with him.

As you have read, she did not like his love busters and stayed at home knowing he was going to be really mad.

I asked her last night if he called her at 8:05AM at work and give her the riot act. She confirmed that he did call and gave her all the same old song, angery outburst, more demands, and judgements. Same old guilt, shame, pressure and blame game of his.

After suggesting she not give him the oppourtunity to allow him to treat her that way, she was not very receptive to any good conversation.

She was really foggy last night so there was not much good to report other than I inforced my boundries again about what is acceptable behaviour.

After speaking with her breifly today about daughter and swim practice tonight, I get the impression she is still being told to leave the house.

I was very kind and pleasant on the phone with her while asking if she was coming to daughters swim team meeting tonight. She said, I don't know what to do.

I am reading into this that there are still move out orders being placed on WW by OM. (More Love Busters)....

LOL -- he's imploding!

If I were you, I would begin detaching as much as possible.
Don't try to educate her or tell her what to do.
I absolutely think you need to stay in Plan A and keep all lines of communication open. Talk to her about plans -- if she says no, CHEERFULLY go on without her.

I also think you should co-mingle some of the divorce-busting 180 techniques into your Plan A. Let her see that you are preparing to move on (with or without her...)
She needs to see that you have confidence, strength, optimism, and a bright future (with or without her...)

I don't like the 180's that imply you are having an affair. But I like the ones that show your upbeat attitude.

MM:

I think we both have a decent understanding of the MB concept and how it can work if it is studied, followed, and implemented.

Fear of losing the WS seems to be the number one reason that so many BS's are afraid of implementing the needed tools to break affairs. Dr. Harley points out that you must go against your own logic and rational judgements to break affairs.

Tough love is so important to be implemented by the BS and other supporting players in the game. Wishing, praying, allowing the affair to take its course, pleading, or using the kids as a lure is simply not enough. You must bring so much pain and disruption to the affair, that the affair becomes "not worth it" to the WS.

Take the drug away from the addict, and you have a chance of Recovery. Allow the addict to have the drug, even in small doses, the addict cannot recover.

Dave

Agreed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

Update:


First let me say that OM is still giving out orders to be carried out.
1) Leave family and family home immediately and move temporarily into apartment.
2) Go back down the lawyers and get divorced ASAP. Once divorce is final, move into his daddy's apartment that he has spent all of his ex-wifes money on remodeling for WW.
3) No contact for life with BS.

Discovered last night what I think is appears to be a major issue with WW.
During conversation last night, the phone call that OM made to the house 12/17/05 came up.
The point of bringing it up was to support that OM was suppose to be happy funny laughter guy but that phone call proves otherwise.
I pointed out that the phone line was open for several hours.
I have done some things that have hurt you over the course of our marriage. There has been times that have not been so good and I was not the greatest husband to you. Okay- Have I ever treated you like he did that day? Have I ever yelled at you and said things like that to you? She says, NO. Then I said, after her yelled and screamed all that horrible stuff that had you reduced to bawling and begging. Then once he can't yell and scream another word what does he do? He then allows you to come in and prove yourself to him for the next hour or so.
WW says, what are you talking about. I said, WW the sicko called the house and left the phone line open for hours.
I know that he made you prove yourself to him sexually. I am not going to go into details but, just know the phone picked up on everything that happened while you were there.

At that point I felt I needed to leave the room and collect myself before I said something I would regret later.

WW needed the time as well. She went into the bathroom and got sick. Apparently she thought I did not know about her having sex with OM.

After a few minutes WW came down to the basement to find me. She was shaking like a leaf. Told me how sick she is and how she never thought she would have a talk with me like that. How she is and adultress $lut and how can I look at her. She said, that she can't even look at me much less ever be able to have sex with me again.
I said, WW I have known about this for over a month. It does hurt but does not change my love for you. WW, you don't need explain this. I know about it. The truth does not hurt like lies do. He is nothing more than an abuser WW. That is a perfect example of what he is all about.
He mentally abusses you for hours by beating you down with words saying things so horrible with no intent other than to hurt. Then he is so sick that he follows that up by making you perform sexually... He is a sick person WW, very sick. That is not love. I don't know what to call it but it sure aint love.
She said, that I just can't look at you. You should have a wife that loves you back the right way. Someone who is not an adultress $lut. I don't know what I am doing, where I am going, but I can't stay here.

I said, WW. Let me tell you again. I believe in forgivness and redemption. Many marriages go threw this and we can too. Are you really ready to leave here?
Can you say that you have done everything as my wife and daughters mother to be home and have a great marriage.
If so, well then you will have no regrets and can go on your way without anything on your contious.

WW tosses some cloths into a laundry basket and headed upstairs. I told her that she was making a huge mistake. She said, well that is all I am and I do any more.

We talked for another fifteen minutes and she left. (12PM)

WW came back home this morning at 6:30AM. Wanting to get some rest. She wanted to hug me and tell he she was sorry. She said she did not sleep for a minute last night and spent most of the night in her car.
She called in to her work and said she would go in at 10:15AM. She asked if I could let her sleep in our bed and wake her up at 9AM to get ready for work.

It was a rough morning anyway. Daughter started her period last night and needed products and her tummy hurt and did not want to go to school.
I had WW run to store and get supplies. Then I rushed daughter off to school.

So, I called WW as she requested to make sure she was going to work. She tells me that OM had already tracked her at our house and called there right after I left.
She said, she did not look at the caller ID just knowing it was going to be me, and he went off on her for being there.
I told her that I really did not want to hear what he had to say but I could guess it was not nice and good. WW said, yeah, pretty much just mad and yelling.
I really thought it was going to be you and I answered all nice and he just started in. So needless to say I got absolutely no sleep at all.

This morning when she got home the clothes basket was in her car. Not sure where it is now. For her to get dressed and get ready for work, she had to bring something back in.

I really believed that sex was an underlying issue that had not been addressed yet.
As I have posted before, she used to brag about how there relationship was not sexual and they did not need it. Also, that sex has always been an issue for her. In our past she always viewed sex as dirty and she was always reserved.
I all ready knew that control freak was also a sexual freak by what his ex-wife said about him.

It seems that she thought if I knew what she was doing with OM in the bedroom that would be it. She said,"this changes everything". Now that you know, I can't look at you the same now.

I really need some help how to address this issue!
Turn this issue around on OM and further pressure the affair to break.

Okay, Dazed.

This sex issue is just another layer, kinda like an onion being peeled back...to reveal more onion.

She didnt know you knew or listened in. She knows now you know EVERYTHING! Her embarassment and shame is now public. Before, she could hide it...lie about it. Even to herself. She cannot due so now. It is why I am a huge proponent for getting as much intel as you can.

When a WS realizes how much you know and knew...and you still stayed, they wont understand. They would have done different. They would have left. They DID leave for far less reasons. But here the BS is...still there.

If she had known all along that you knew, it wouldnt be as powerful as it is now. Why do I say that? Well, because she now can think back over the past time when she now knows you knew, and look at how you reacted. How you treated her.

You knew she was an "adulteress $lut," as she put it. You knew it...but you NEVER treated her as such. You treated her with respect and as your wife. You dont even really need to say a word, Dazed.

Let it sink in to her over the next several days. Let her really grasp what has gone on here. Right now, she is concentrating on the depth of her fall. But as she looks at this, she will also see the depths of Dazed's love.

When she is ready, she will change her outlook on this. She will be humbled...not by her transgressions...but by the incredible love this man has for her. The man that SHE chose to spend her life with.

If anything I would say to her, it would be this:

"Mrs. Dazed, I have always loved you. By now, since you know I know...you should understand the depth of my love for you. It is why I couldnt just stop and divorce you. It is why I have continued to pursue you. It is because my love for you is greater than all of the things you have done. You think you are a screw up. And while you have made some mistakes here...let me let you in on a little secret. You didnt screw up when you chose me! A man with less love for you would have walked away. But you chose a man willign to walk thru all of this to rescue you. You chose a man that has been willing to overcome all that you have done...and love you more! I would say that isnt a screw up. I'd say that you chose well.

Of course, I deserve better. But deserving better really has nothing to do with love. I love you and have shown you this. You have done your worse and it has only strengthened my love for you. If I deserve better, it is only in the fact that it is you and I that can have better. I deserve Mrs. Dazed.

You can walk away again...and I will still love you. You can walk on toward what OM has done to you and toward that life. Or you can stand by your original choice. Honey, you chose well!"

Something like that. Really, you dont need to say anything. As a matter of fact, in the theme Lexxxy outlined about pulling back, I would suggest not saying much anymore. Let her talk. Let her let this stuff out. Ask questions, instead of lecturing. Example?

Mrs. Dazed: "How could you still be here after all I have done to you?"

Dazed: "Sounds incredible, huh? Why do you think I have stayed and tried so hard?"

Mrs. Dazed: "I dont know. I dont understand it. But it cant be love."

Dazed: "Really?" While scratching his chin. "So, you think after all I have heard, after all I have seen, after all that has been done...that it was somethign besides love that motivated me?"

See how that works? You dont tell her how it is. You lead her to draw her own conclusions. She is a smart lady, from what you have described. If you stand back and use questions, you will find that she will begin to put the pieces together.

She is coming out of the fog Dazed. Let her. Just let her figure this out. She has to figure it out. All you can do is stand there and be the rock.

In His arms.