Add FORGIVENESS to the Mantra.

You've known the worst all along, and you've already forgiven her.

The biggest obstacle you face right now is her ability to forgive herself.

I would stress the difference between the girl you knew, and the troubled woman she has become. That you can help her get her old self back. The one who had integrity and values. That this was all just a mistake.

Be her hero. Protect her from OM. Show the lengths you will go to for that, restraining order, moving away, letting her quit her job...etc.

Dazed,
This is when having a court order against him would be so useful...it has backbone and there are consequences if he oversteps it. Other than that, can you block his incoming calls? With our phone/phone company you can have numbers blocked.

They are right but WW has to choose to put the paperwork into effect. You should have a copy of the necessary paperwork for a restraining order sitting out and ready to go as soon as WW signs it. Fill it out as much as you can and make a couple copies as back up. You just may catch her in a less fogged out moment...get her to sign it and file it immediately. Even if she withdraws it later...OM will go nuts. WW can't get mad at you because she consented to it.

Further, even if she doesn't ever sign she'll likely tell OM you have the paperwork sitting out ready to go. That should make for an interesting conversation.

Anyway...just an idea.

Mr. Wondering

Short Update:
I went home for lunch and the laundry basket is back in the house and her curling iron and things are also back in her bath room.
Weird: A necklace I gave her two years ago for Christmas was out of the jewerly box and laying in her bath room. She must have tried it on today.
She has not worn this in a year. (NOTE: It is a necklace with a cross as the center piece.)
Just the idea of wearing jewerly from me, and symbolizes god... How big is that?

Thank you MM, Lexxxy, Mr.W....

I think I can...I think I can...I think I can...I think I can...Keep going Dazed!!!! So close....to the really hard part....RECOVERY!!!!

Dazed...

Sounds like things are progressing for you. Thought I'd point out something that hit me from Lexxxy's thread...FORGIVENESS.

Give this some thought for a moment my friend...because I hope that you'll be able to process through this a little easier than some have.

Realize you've been in crisis mode this whole time...simply trying to end the affair and get your wife back. Once you're out of that mode and truly starting recovery, you'll start to have the chance to start actually process through what you've been feeling. IF you can...try to give some thought to that now.

Make sure that you truly can forgive your wife for all of this...the anger hasn't had a chance to land yet. I'm not saying you can't forgive her...or shouldn't. On the contrary...it's the only hope your marriage has. Just wanting you to make sure that you've given this subject some thought before hand...

And the reason is this...Lexxxy is right...if you CAN forgive her this (once you know that your marriage and family can/will recover)...make sure your wife KNOWS that you can. It's good that you had this conversation recently...because now your wife will realize that you UNDERSTAND what it is that your willing to forgive. And if she can truly see that you are willing and capable of forgiving this...it WILL give her hope that she can truly come home to you in heart and soul.

All WS's face this...mine did for sure. It's one of the biggest emotional obstacles they face to truly attempting reconciliation. But, once they overcome that...

Hang in there friend!

UPDATE:

The latest ultimatum is WW is to be in OM's apartment tonight by 6PM with clothes in hand.
I got the word third hand from her mother. Not sure what the or else part is....

Not really sure what to do first.
Thoughts are to call WW and feel her out a little. Ask her to pick up daughter from leadership and take he to swim. That will take past 6pm for sure. If I do this I wanted to wait till last minute to make it so she might not be able to give notice back to OM.

I think I am going to call the police and ask for them to help me out until WW is ready to file for protection from stalking and abuse orders.
These orders have much more teeth than an RO. These orders are signed by the clerk of the court. Police will take him to jail the first time he breaks orders.
Help...

Dazed:

Am I reading your post correctly, the OM called your house and left his phone off the hook. He then made it a point to force sex on your wife so you could hear it? Is that really correct?

If that is correct, he just trumped my FWW's card when her OM when he came to the parking lot to let me see him as my wife and I walking to our MC session.

Dazed, this thread is amazing and very SICK. I feel your pain. No man should have to put up with what she is doing to you.

Not long ago I was exposed to a man that was diagnosed as a sociopath so I did a little reading. Your wife may have found one too. These people are dangerous and they are destroyers. All sociopaths don't hurt people physically, but many murderers are sociopaths, like Scott Peterson.

I don't wan't to scare you but for a littl MB analysis from amatures, here it is:
Here are the traits of a sociopath:

Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion, it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love
While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the genuineness of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings. Expects unconditional surrender.

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge, yet testing the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules, punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exert power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the behavior as necessary for their (or the group's) own "good" and deny the abuse. When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. The followers only see them as near perfect.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group. Blame reinforces passivity and obedience and produces guilt, shame, terror and conformity in the followers.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Totalist leaders frequently practice promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. This is usually kept hidden from all but the inner circle. Stringent sexual control of their followers, such as forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from parents, rules for dating, etc.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future. Many groups claim as their goal world-domination or other utopian promises. Great contrast between the leader's opulent lifestyle and the followers' impoverishment. Support by gifts and donations from the followers who are pressured to give through fear and guilt. Highly sensitive to their own pain and health.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and to increase income and to recruit a range of members. Is able to adapt or relocate as needed to preserve the group. Can resurface later with a new name, a new front group and a new twist on the scam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:


Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

What exactly are you concerned about?
Let her go.
Why are you trying to cushion the impact of his demand?
Let her go and be miserable.

Are you thinking that by preventing her from going that he will suddenly disappear? Nope, he won't...he'll just escalate and keep raising the stakes.

Imaging this: he has DEMANDED her presense. How happy do you think she is going to be? He's going to be in an ugly mood and so is she. He has this enormous sense of entitlement -- he has given everything up for her and now its her job to compensate him for that. Do you really think in her frame of mind that she is up to that task? Heck no.
Let them Lovebust the ****** out of each other.

Tell her good luck and help her pack her bags, carry them to the car, and wave goodbye.

You don't want her in the condition she's in now. You want her back when she is BEGGING TO RETURN and WILLING TO DO ANYTHING TO BE WITH YOU. She won't be that person until you let their affair explode.

You keep trying to stop her from hitting the bottom.
You keep trying to put pillows down to cushion her fall.
Make it as hard as possible! She leaves tonight and gets NO FURTHER CONTACT WITH DD.

Lexxxy is correct in hat you dont need to worry Dazed. As I have said before, if the enemy is self-destructing...dont try to help!!

I disagree in the fact that you need to help her to the bottom. You need to do NOTHING to intercede or help. Your mantra is still the same. You are for the marriage. Do not help the OM get her. Dont force anything. But at the same time, dont make it easier for her to do the wrong thing. I am with Lexxxy that you dont cushion her fall.

You are best to just stand there and tell her that she knows the real deal now. She knows what she has there...and what OM is going to demand.

And then let her choose! If she goes, it wont mean the end. As Lexxxy said...paradise will look a lot like He!!.

Be the lighthouse, the rock. Dont move. If she leaves, then you protect your daughter. You do what you need to do. but infront of your wife, you DO NOT CHANGE! She is liking what she sees in you now. If you change, she wont trust it...wont believe in it. If she goes she needs to have the view of Dazed that you have created in her mind.

You notice that in jewelry stores, they lay diamonds on black velvet? Know why? Because the diamonds show more brilliantly on top of black. Good always looks a lot better when it is laid in front of darkness.

You and OM are now laid out before her. Good and darkness. everytime she sees or hears from him, you only look that much better!

Do not screw up that image of you!

In His arms.

Hey Mort:

What do you think of my dime store Analysis of the OM? Control freak, abusive, Mr. Wonderful, shallow, etc. Do you think there is something there?

Nobody can change the case and I agree that the affair is faltering, but Dazed is not home free yet. Big dics and egos get the best of OMen.

Don't give up yet Dazed. Your WW has some serious issues beyond the affair, I am afraid to say. Maybe not deal killers, but issues that cannot be ignored.

TooSoon

I think you may have something there. I have said all along that this guy may be dangerous. Dazed needs the protective order...AND he needs some home protection (read: gun). This guy may come unhinged when the WW goes home for good.

Dazed,

I am thinking after going over TooSoon's stuff. One thing that may make it tough for your wife to come home is her being scared and thinking this guy might hurt her or you or DD. So, in some way she may go be with him to protect you. I know, weird!! But the fog will make stuff like this happen.

One thing I would add to your Plan A is a plan that your wife can see on how to protect the family from OM. I like the idea stated previously about having the RO paperwork sitting out so she knows that you are actively looking to protect your family. She may feel a lot safer if she knows you are going to take care of this.

In His arms.

Where I come from, forcing someone to have sex is called "rape."

And holding someone against their will, whether by force or by threat, is called "kidnapping."

Why in the world are you posting here instead of calling the police???
Mulan

If that was the case, my wife would have never had an affair, so I thought I would use the name TooSoon, LOL! Thanks for the compliment.

TooSoon

LOL. Sorry for the mistype! Long day.

In His arms.

Mulan,

It isnt rape. She willingly did these things. She willingly keeps returning. He is abusing her. He isnt raping her. She hasnt said "no."

In His arms.

2soon-
You are spot on with your analysis of OM the control freak.
He fits everything you wrote. He also fits every aspect of a person obsessed.
Some one had a link to an interview with John Moore that authored, "Confusing love with Obsession". I sent WW that interview that bascially defines how and what an obsessed person does. He met every criteria. The WW was so taken by how well he fit into the criteria, that she went to the library and checked out the boook.
She even said, he matches on every point for being obsessed. Again, providing her reading material works 100 times better than talking to her.

Thanks for the concern of me stopping her from leaving. You don't need to worry. I am not going to do that. I will not ask her to leave at this point and make it easy for her to leave. Don't worry about that. In fact I have agreed with her comment about leaving several times now in the last couple of weeks.

I called the lawyer today but he is out until late tonight or in the morning.
I got word last night that WW's lawyer is still trying to talk WW to going through with the divorce. I seen her doing this in the court house on the 9th right in front of me. So of course I believe it when I hear that her lawyer is trying to talk WW into going on with it.
I asked my lawyers legal aid to pull my file and look for anything new. There was nothing new in there.

Last night WW's sister came over and hung out with us for an hour or so. Then sister took WW with her to the store and they set out front of the house and talked for another 1-1/2 hour.

I seen OM drive by once. I was told that he drove by many times while WW ans SIL set out in her truck.
He was texting her and telling her what to do.

She came on inside and was pretty fogged over again. She wanted to talk about OM. I told her that she needed to turn it all off for tonight and go upstairs and get some sleep in a bed.
She kept saying that he was going to be mad and that she should call him and tell him she was not coming as promised.

Of course I plan Aed the deal perfectly. It was another hour or two and she finally put on her pj's and went upstairs and slept in our bed. I was prepaired to go to the guest room but she asked for me to stay and lay down. So, I did. I think she slept all night. There was several times that I woke up and checked.

Yes, OM is love busting big time. I am not sure what all he said last night on his texting, but I did intercept Monday nights text.
15 messages still on his secret cell. All guilt trips/lies/promises/fear tact/ more guilt.

She must have deleted anything he sent yesterday and last night while in SIL truck.

I did call the police. I got everything there is to know about PFS orders, and RO filing.
The PFS is the best thing. It's free, processed the same day, police serv OM with the court orders. If there is a claim made that he violates the orders, police take him straight to jail and charge him with atleast, "violating court orders", and stalking.

I really would like to have WW go to the court house and do this.
Cops said that they can not charge OM with anything with out an PFS in place. If he is driving by the home, we can call and report him doing. The police will contact him and if given the sitch, will really be stern with questioning of him and try there best to scar him away.

I am thinking of going on line and looking for more information on a PFS and present the print outs to WW.
Lawyer is to call and visit once he gets a chance.

Another OM demand left empty last night. I know he is a stalker and as an obsessed person, he may try to harm WW, me or daughter just to get even for not getting his way.

Of I seen some of his Monday night text.
All hateful/guilt infested/fear tact/ pressure/ BS bashing demands and crap.

I suggested to WW that she just not give him the chance to hurt her any longer. You don't have to listen to him or take his crap.

There was more good signs I am skipping over. I will try to tell more later.

I just looked up that "stalking" is a felony on the first offense.
Man, I would really like to get WW to file for an PFS. Yes, I know paper does not protect you from an assult. It may be just enough to scar him and create some closure to the affair.

Can YOU file since he's stalking your house?

Sounds to me like he's digging his own grave...which is good news.

Myself, I might have considered telling WW that if she's choosing to stay home with you instead of going to be with OM, that in your eyes it seems she's choosing to end it with OM and and rebuild your marriage. See what her response is to that. It sounds to me like she needs a 'nudge' in the right direction...and if she agrees with that statement, then I would use that to help her decide how to end it completely with OM and take the steps you know she needs to take.

Overall, it does appear as if it's coming to a head of some kind my friend.

Yep, I have to agree that working on YOURSELF if your only option right now. If she wants to come into counseling after you've been going for a while, that's up to her.

Even if she comes off of her emotional high from the new boyfriend--and she will--, that doesn't mean things will be hunky dunky between you two.

Work on you. Become the person you want to be and that might bring her back. It might be the only way to get her back.

Can We Really Control A Spouse Who Wants To Leave? single choice

No (80%, 12 Votes)

Yes (0%, 0 Votes)

Sometimes, but only if we change ourselves. (20%, 3 Votes)

Total Votes: 15 Voting on this poll ends: 0 seconds ago

Man!!! Any thought of just you, the wife, and DD just hopping in the car and go on a vacation with no cell phones. Just everyone take a break!! Preferably after OM violates that PFS and then stews for awhile. Just a thought!!