I've been going to church with her since we married, but she keeps jumping from church to church.

For the last few months I have been meeting alone with the same person she has been seeing at our church. He also saw that she has left the marriage and has been praying and working to try to help us. We have mostly been working on my faith, but wants to get joint counseling started soon. I'm guessing she won't go.

I have started writing little prayers for her and us and putting them in her bible. She hasn't even acknowledged them.

At least I'm at a point where I know it is in God's hands and that things will work out one way or the other.

If your wife says you don't show her enough affection, have you asked her what she wants specifically. From a woman's point of view, sometimes men can try hard, but miss the target. Ask her to tell you exactly what affection means to her.

Some of her behaviour sounds a bit like depression to me. Do you think the removal of her breast had anything to do with her change of behaviour. Self immage is a big thing for a woman, and depression over it might cause her to push you away and lose interest in sex. So could guilt over A, or feelings for another man. Is there any way you can find out for sure?

Don't spend your whole life chasing her if she just keeps running. Whether the problem is 'you' or 'her', you can't help her fix it while she is pushing you away.

I told my H to leave until he is ready to sort out the problems because he was running from me in a similar way. Turned out to be an affair. I do want him back, but whether that happens or not, I am in a better place now than I was when I was with him.

I say leave, and see if she comes after you. If she doesn't, you will know, and be free to move on.

Good luck

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to find out more about what affection means to her. My wife won't talk to me about any real issues. That just gets her more upset.

I've definitely thought about leaving, but that would also mean leaving our three little kids. They would be crushed. To them I'm their Dad, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus.

I'm the only one that shows them affection and laughs with them. I'm the only one that kisses them good morning and good night. I'm the one they come to when they are hurting.

Leaving would also make the kids think I was leaving them.

Funny that she uses religion for the reason that she can't leave... I think that I would be looking into her religion and if it's anything like I suspect... I would tell her that her religion not only says that divorce is wrong... but that the religion would want the partners in the marriage to work together towards reconciliation and commitment...

I think you would probably find that religion was just being used as an excuse at that point.

If not...if she is really concerned about her religion and doing what is right then you have a chance...

Sestep

I've been wondering the same thing. She seems to be hiding behind only part of her religion. She has told me I've been a horrible husband and said justice will be served. But I keep thinking religion is more about forgiveness than justice.

I'm trying to get her in joint counseling with someone at her church. Maybe they can explain her religious views to me.

You can talk this over with her minister and ask for an intervention (with or without you). I can gaurantee you that a good minister is going to tell her that her attitude and behavior runs contrary to her faith and that she must change.

She actually filled out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire for me last night! I left it in her bathroom a few days ago with a religious card and a note saying I want to learn how to make things better for her. It is a start.

Her concerns were that I'm "deceptive and so morally corrupt that things are hidden on purpose. Give her very little emotional support. Mostly a competitive or passive atmosphere. It must be genuine, not wanting something in return, and that I'm not a good moral, spiritual leader for the family. I do not like to be deceived in conversation or judged. I'll only converse if I trust the other person's motives."

Ouch! But at least that is a start to some interaction. I've asked her to sit down with me and/or our spiritual leader to discuss the results.

HeartOnE, I'm writing to you as that wife who emotionally left the marriage and then I finally physically left the marriage.

You are definetly in a tough spot!!! I'm not your wife But if you'll bare with me my story may help you. I'm hoping this will give you some understanding in how a woman's mind thinks.

It's very possible your wife has transfered her emotional feelings to someone else, if not a full-blown affair. She maybe holding back on the sex part b/c of religion. (It's sort of like what the alcoholic tries to tell himself that if I wait till Noon to have my first drink than I'm not an alcoholic.) Something I didn't realize and she may not realize now is that she's still in violation of her marriage vows being emothionally withdrawn. As you know, sex is not the only determining factor of an affair. (This is what I did to cope.)

My background is this; A lot of things happened with my first husband that I can now realize happened b/c both of us were young and immature. I started to withdraw from my husband b/c he didn't seem to care about my feelings. He didn't seem willing to try and understand me. He could be harsh and uncaring. He worked many hours, didn't seem to want to help with the kids or the household chores and didn't have an interest in church or a relationship with God. I would try and talk with him and he often discounted my feelings. I would do activities that he wanted and he refused to do things with me that I liked. I felt like I was doing all the giving. I was hurt, angry and frustrated!!! My husband would not share his inner thoughts and everything we talked about was surface.

To survive, I started making friends, getting involved in hobbies, devoting my time to the kids, etc. Before I knew it, my husband and I were just housemates. He too learned a way to cope with whatever was going on for him, he started drinking more. The drinking only made things worse between us. We really lacked communication skills!!!! I lacked boundaries! I thought I could talk to other men and be alone with them and not get caught up in crossing a line. I was wrong! Emotionally, I would end up crossing the line. It was something I needed desperatly and I began looking for it from just about anywhere.

By the time my X decided to try and change things, I was too far away, too angry. (We'd been married about 20 years at that point.) I look back now and can see all the wonderful, loving things he tried to do to make me happy. He brought me flowers, gave backrubs, would tell me to go out and do something for myself, etc. I couldn't see them as they happened unfortunatly. I dismissed them b/c I wanted more communication on a deeper level between us. In many ways, I became very selfish. I ended up initiating the divorce. I stayed in the relationship 23 years. The emotional divorce started in the 7th year. Hmmmm! Not so good.

I shopped a lot also. Your wife is probably using shopping and material things as a way to feel better. Maybe the material things are the only things she ever felt she could rely on from you. Unfortunatly, material items only bring happiness for a short lived time. Then a person has to move onto the next item in order to feel relief. Also, shopping is a diversion. It can help occupy the mind so one doesn't have to think about that "other" stuff.

I don't know if any of this sounds familiar and I'm not sure if you can get your wife's attention or not. If my X-H would have gently taken my face,looked deeply into my eyes and apologized for not being there for me when I needed him, whether he or even I would have known it at the time, he would have caught my attention. If he'd of lovingly talked about how he understood why shopping was important to me and again apologized for not being there for me emotionally and now realizing that this was the reason I had turned to outside activities, I would have felt like he'd crawled inside my head. I know I sure would have been watching his words and actions to see if he was for real. Him apologizing would have caught my attention. This is not something he would do. (I've learned that this is something most men have a hard time doing.)

I had gotten to a point in my life that I just figured he would do things for a little while and then it always felt like things would go back to the way they'd always been. I didn't trust him. I didn't trust him to care for my emotional needs, he'd failed in the past. I don't think my husband was as uncomfortable as I was with what was going on. He didn't become uncomfortable enough until I filled for the divorce and he was served.

You will have to make some decisions for yourself. How willing are you to stick with this? How willing are you to set boundaries? How patient are you with wooing her back? If you really want to make it work, what are you willing to do to get her attention and get her where she's willing to consider working at your relationship again? There's no right or wrong answers. You just need to decide where you are at and what you want to do. You could decide to do everything to make it work and still she may want out at this time. Most women though, do think, if they really seem something different going on in their husbands.

Some great books by Gary Smalley, Dr. Harvey, Emerson Eggerich, James Dobson to name a few are out there. These people talk about the differences in husbands and wives and explain how we can work thru them. Check out the website at www.loveandrespect.com. It has a lot of great articles and tools. Emerson Eggerich has some great ideas on what women/wifes and what men/husbands need to hear from their spouses. He talks about Men's most important need is respect and women's most important need being love.

Continue to help yourself. Learn about yourself. It's important. (I don't think men are encouraged enough nor allowed to feel and share their emotions.)

You and your wife both have some spiritual decisions to make. If you don't learn the lesson now, believe me life will give you another opportunity somewhere along the way to learn it. Get into another relationship and after the "In-Love" phase dies down, the same type of issues will surface with your new partner. Your new partner maybe harder to deal with then your first wife. (My 2nd husband is much harder to deal with.)

Just some food for thought. . .

Wow, this is exactly the type of insight I was looking for!!

How do I start being there for her emotionally? I've suggested us spending time together each day talking, I've asked her out to spend time together, I try to be understanding when she is upset.... What does it really mean to be there for her emotionally? I'm dying to be able to talk to her and share my concerns and feelings. And I want to know what is going on deep inside her. But when I do bring up my deep concerns, she takes this as been an attack on her. Or she gets mad that I'm so weak and needy (when I'm not!). I want to be able to share with her without feeling she will be mad or upset.

I'm the giver in this marriage, and she is a definite taker. I'm always helping with the kids, helping with the housework, helping fix things around the house, going to church together, etc. I do all of the hugs and kisses and I Love Yous and love notes, flowers, and putting prayers in her bible. But she doesn't return any affection and has never been able to say she loves me. I do all of the things she suggests and let her follow her dreams. But when I have ideas or want to pursue something, I usually get dismissed. She also dismisses my affection as unreal and just trying to save the marriage.

I don't think another partner would be any different and would probably be worse. Maybe I'm just not that good at being a husband. I want to be with her. It would just be nice to know she also wanted to be with me.

Quest is so right. I was the leaving wife as well in my first marriage. My exh was so selfish and nothing I could do would wake him up to that. He promised to change so many times but didn't. By the time he woke up, I had already emotionally divorced him. He tried, but it was just too much and at the time I thought it would be easier to go than to stay. I was so wrong. My exhusband is still selfish and hasn't changed but I still have guilt that I couldn't give more or do more to change the marriage.

I'm not being critical of you, you sound like a wonderful husband. Truly, a man most women would want. I think perhaps some tough love might be in order?? I know my opinion differs from some here but have you read Love Must be Tough by James Dobson?

Right now, your wife has emotionally divorced you. You guys live like roommates but she has all the advantages of being married while you don't. I think you should tell her that the only way you guys can stay together would be to go to marriage counseling. Otherwise you are going to upset her little apple cart by separating. As much as she is about appearances she won't like that. Tell her that you now want to start getting something out of the marriage if you want to stay and the first way to do that is with joint counseling.

If my exh would have read Love Must be tough he might have been able to save our marriage. The book tells you at length what not to do. He did everything it says not to and I'm ashamed to say that I didn't listen to his begging and pleading. He deserved more than that from me after 13 years of marriage.

My second marriage is much happier than the first. I feel like a partner and lover. I still regret hurting my first husband however and wish someone would have given me some straight talk at that time.

Some how, some way, you will have to win her trust. It's going to take time. It's going to take patience. Before you can get to the deeper issues, you have to be able to comfortably talk about the lesser ones.

What has happened that she feels your deceptive? What makes her think that when you do something for her, you are expecting something in return? Did you maybe give her a backrub, she started to relax, you start getting sexually excited and sort of pushed for SF? My X-H use to do that and it really made me distrust his motives. Did she ask you to do something she enjoyed and you complained and mopped the entire time you were doing this event? She is basically telling you that she doesn't trust you. Are you courageous enough to ask her to give you one example in your lives that would help you understand what she's talking about? Are you willing to listen to what she says? That means you can not discount what she felt or thought about that example. It's important not to defend yourself. It's very important to just listen. . . Think you can thank her for sharing and helping you to understand why she's hurt? These are the ways you rebuild trust. This is very tough stuff!

Can you pinpoint what events happened in your lives that you felt her pulling away emotionally? There's a book out there called "10 Lies Husband tell their Wives." You might benefit from reading something like that. I glanced throught it today at the bookstore and found an insight that was so true. Often times husbands tell us they'll do something next week but next week never comes. (Cut the grass, fix the broken fixture, change the oil in the car, etc.) If this pattern continues, a wife will feel lied to. Are there other things you've only told a half truth on to your wife? Have you with held information on something b/c you thought you would just spare her from worrying? Just think about it. . .

I am going to have to look at home and see what Gary Smalley book I read that talked about winning someone back. I do remember he told this husband to give her what she wanted and more. So I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Have you decided that you will do and be everything you can be to win her love back? It's going to take a lot of work to do this. You are somewhere along the line going to need guidance. You are getting guidance and insight from this website. That's a good start and I believe I read that you are also speaking to the pastor. Continue to build your faith and reliance in God, it's important!

In the book "Love & Respect" Eggerich explains that the most "mature" person is the one who is going to work on improving the marriage. This can mean your wife is 90% at fault and you are going to own up to your 10%. This is hard work believe me, I've been trying to do it. Some very wise people keep reminding me that I can only change myself. Hopefully because of these changes, my husband will be compelled to come along. I'm going to challenge you to the same thing. Work on yourself. Stop worrying about fixing her, leave that job to God. Build your relationship with God, and he'll guide you, honest!

I wish I had time to say more. I will check back again and keep your situation in thought and prayer.

Thanks for the excellent advice!

After she filled out the emotionally needs survey I thanked her for being so honest with me and asked her if we can spend some time talking about the results. She said she will think about it.

I will definitely ask her why she feels she can't trust me. I think a lot of it does go back to the porn that I used to hide in the house. Didn't look at it much, just hid it. It's been gone for about 8 years now, but the suspicion is still there.

Lately, I've been hiding relationship books and books like the the Praying Husband. Not from her, but just so the kids don't get into them. If been visiting the pastor and going to small group meetings in the church without letting her know where I am going. I just feel my walk with Christ is something I need to do for myself. I don't want her to know about it so that she thinks I am doing this just to win her back. I've been saying prayers with the kids only when she isn't around. I didn't feel comfortable doing that in front of her because she might think it was just fake. But yesterday I did finally do it in front of her.

The emotionally separation is probably due to several events. She said I wasn't a supportive husband when she had breast cancer. And when the kids were born, it didn't feel like we really connected during that time. Also, when we used to go places together I was never very outgoing and talkative. She also likes going to small church groups. We quit going because she felt I wasn't really enthusiastically into it. I think all of those may have contributed to the emotional divorce.

She has complained that there are lots of things I don't get fixed right away. Our patio door broke and it took me a long time to get the part I needed. She kept harping on that. But after the part came in 6 weeks later, she realized I hadn't neglected it.

How did you know I gave her a backrub once and pushed the SF key? But that was 10 years ago and we haven't done that since. Maybe now I know why.

I've decided to try everything and keep trying until she either divorces me or I die. Some nights I feel I have already died. But I just don't want her to feel I'm too desperate, because that would drive her away. I think fault is more 50-50 or even more my fault. I haven't been there for her emotionally and the porn issue really hurt our marriage. Nights are so lonely I often just want to give up. But after kissing my kids goodbye in the morning, I'm recharged for awhile.

I have realized that I can't change my wife and if she does leave there is nothing I can do about it. I've put my faith in God and have been doing things for myself and to make myself better. Like biking, walks, church groups, volunteering, Tai Chi (oops that's another thing I did that I haven't told her about). Right now we are planning to build a house, so it looks like we will physically be together for awhile. But I think she just wants to stay in roommate mode. I don't think she wants the marriage back. Sometimes it just feels like she is using me to get the house and kids that she wants without having a real marriage. Her emotionally needs survey said she was very happy not having sex again. Ouch!

Thanks. How long have you been trying? I'll be praying for you too. Good luck!! Keep strong!

Your welcome. I'm glad that the experiences I went through are giving you some insight into what maybe going on in your relationship with your wife.

I hold a lot of sadness about my insistance to divorece my 1st husband and not work things out. At the time, our relationship seemed hopeless and while I thought I was walking with God. . .Well that's another story in its self.
All I can tell you on that is I never got out of God's way so some of the miracles could happen.

As for the backrub, I didn't know that had happened in your life, I was sharing what happen in mine. (I felt tricked and violated back then.) I've been learning more about the differences between men and women and have a greater understanding of how a "backrub" can become such a misunderstood event. Men are more visual in most cases than women. It only makes sense "physically" how a H can become excited. On the other hand, a woman is appreciating the nurturing. Most women want to know that they are more than a sex object to their H. I wanted to believe that my husband was offering an act of love/nurturing and when he started pushing for more, that's where the misunderstanding took place. Something I once heard at a therapy group was "Hurt people, hurt people." (It's true. When I feel hurt by what someone has done, I often want to hurt them back so they know how it felt.)

It sounds like there are lots of hurts from the past that never got resolved. Again in studies it has been found that men will let go/forget about the little problem the day before. Women on the other hand, if we don't feel like we got to talk about it or if we don't feel that our H understood, it's not resolved. We have the tendency to put that little problem/event in our "Unresolved Events File" for safe keeping. Have you ever noticed how well a W is at reminding a H about all the facts to a past event? We can be very historical when we start arguing! That's how we are wired. On the other hand, you probably can barely remember the event and don't know why it's such a big deal. That's how you're wired. If we start to understand our differences, it's easier not to take things so personal.

Your intuition about not making a big deal about the books you're reading or the church things you're participating in is probably wise at this time. You are right, she might feel you are doing these things to win her back. It's important to own them if she asks about them.

It does sound like your wife might be fighting depression. I'm sure it's a compilation of hurt from the things that happened between the two of you, the demands a woman faces being a Mom and finding out and dealing with Breast Cancer just to point out a few things I've read in your postings. She may not like her self-image when she looks in the mirror. I've not had to deal with the loss of a breast so I don't know what that's like. With all the attention that's placed on appearance these days, I know I would feel ashamed possibly about what my body looks like due to that illness. (I fight with being overweight.) There's an unspoken message that the commericials on TV and society gives about aging. For men, it seems that as they age we call them "mature." Having gray hair and a few wrinkles is a mature look for a man. For a woman, we say she looks old. "Rode Hard." Not very attractive statements.

As I'm sure you can tell, I read a lot and research on the web. I can rattle off tons of great books to read but one I think could be very helpful at this time is Love & Respect by Emerson Eggerich. With your knowledge aboun LB and EN from this website and Dr. Harvey's book, I believe that Love & Respect will help with the spiritual side of things. It talks about some of the differences between men and women. He gives insight into the Bible passages that talk about men loving their wives and women to respect their husbands. I had never looked at these things from those pespectives. It was very enlightening.

I've been wanting a better relationship with my husband for about 3 years now. I have trouble with boundaries. That's the part I have to work on and learn, at least at this time. I actually needed to learn this in my first marriage. I take too much responsibilty for the other person and don't allow them to live with the consequences of their actions. I've got to learn some balance in my life. Hang in there. God knows your heart. Read the book of Job. Now that guy had some problems. LOL

I have noticed my wife's talent for total recall. The last time she blew up on me, she brought up something I said in jest about 10 years ago!! She had been talking on the phone with my sister for a few hours. Afterwards I said "Is she like your best friend now?". She took that wrong and I didn't hear about it for 10 years! It makes me wonder what other dirt she has been saving on me for the last 20 years!

There might be some depression involved. She had major depression a few times before. I can't imagine how it must feel to a woman to only have one breast left. I guess I haven't been that concerned about how she looks. I still thinks she looks great. I have never seemed to care that much about what women look like after I first meet them. Beauty attracts my attention at first, but then I usually look for an inner beauty and some connection. We had that for a while, but the connect died years ago.

I hope this is only a test of my faith and love for my wife. I wonder if I'll pass. It does seem like these relationship problems shouldn't be that important to us when we consider all of the people in the world suffering from illness, dying of hunger and wars. Overall, we have it very, very good, and I guess we should be happy with what we do have.

I would never resort to begging and pleading. I told my wife if she really wanted to leave, I would help her move, but I would prefer to work on fixing our marriage. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me. If I truely make her totally unhappy, I would do the honorable thing and leave.

I tried some tough love. I told her if she wouldn't go to counseling with me that I wasn't building her a new house. But she sold our current house anyway and has kept working on the new plans. I gave in and have let her continue working on the new house. I guess that was a major mistake, but we already had lots of money sunk in the new house and had to move anyway.

I guess I need to read the Tough Love book.

I think I have another reason I haven't left yet. I'm afraid of what it would do to her mentally since she has had severe depression before.

I went with my last girlfriend for 3 years (lots of affection both ways, good communication, lots of groping but no real sex). We were very young and decided to split up while we went to different graduate schools. Right after she told her mother, her mother committed suicide. I think it might have been because of us, because her mother was strongly in favor or us being together. I don't think I could handle the emotional stress again.

That was painful memory!

Wow, you sound like you can be held hostage easily with guilt. Do you have trouble setting boundaries?

It's sad to hear that people take their lives and those of us that are still around never seem to forget. I've had a couple of people I know commit suicide. They had a lot of underground problems and pain that most of us had no idea about. I use to wonder what I could have done differently. Truth is, in the long run I think these people still would have done what they did.

How about you, are you fighting depression? You too are under a lot of stress.

I think I am over the worst of my depression, although it still comes back sometimes. When I'm around my kids (without my wife around) the depression is gone. Sometimes late at night or early in the morning things get though.

My counselor and pastor have been helping with the self-esteem and depression. And for making me realize that her anger is HER anger, and she would be directing it at anyone that married her. I now realize her anger is not all about me so it is easier for me to not let it hurt me. I've been a lot happier lately: whistling all the time, enjoying the kids, socializing, etc. I think my happiness is really eating at my wife.

Setting what boundaries? Do you mean how much I let other people affect me? With my wife originally I had no boundaries because I thought I could trust her completely to be supportive and not hurt me. She had assess to all of me. Now with the strained marriage she still has total assess to any part of me she wants to hurt. But now that she has broken my trust, the barriers are coming up for protection.

I divorced my husband in 2003 thinking it would solve these same sorts of issues. Now it is 2005 and we miss our life partners because as difficult and painful as it can be to stay where you are, it is unimaginable to divorce especially where children are involved. You will be divorcing your wife, her friends, and her family. What is helping us understand how we went from soul mates to divorced after 10 years and raising 2 kids together is a book by Dr. Gary Chapman titled The Five Love Languages. It sounds like Acts of Service may be her primary love language, Receiving Gifts might be high on yours. He also wrote one for kids. If she has been a SAHM to three kids her mothering skills are likely very important to her. Maybe try giving her that book The 5 Love Languages For Kids and have each kid write how they would like to receive her love. When we are in it we can't see it. Only time passing can help us see that. Divorce is so much more painful than any other thing in life I've experienced...and I've experienced some pretty painful things. Living it is very different for people who still carry love for their life partners. It seems obvious you love her. Keep trying...Show your kids what true commitment is really about..

Thanks for the excellent advice and support. I have been close to throwing in the towel a few times, especially late at night. Thanks to notes like yours I make it for another day. Then when I see the kids the next day I remember why I haven't given up.

Today I came home to all three of them with huge smiles singing the preamble to the constitution and tonight the house was filled with laughter as the kids chased the dog around the house. Then my oldest (8) gave me a Subway discount card. He knew I eat there almost every day and bought it by himself with his own money! How can I not keep trying for them?

We did the love languages about 7 years ago. Mine was physical contact and hers was time together. Service used to be near the bottom of her list. I wonder if we took it again if her's has changed?

I'll have to get the one for kids. Great idea!

I realize a divorce will be painful for everyone and will not make things better. I hope someday she understands that too. I do love my wife for who she is. She is a great mom, a great cook, she watches out for everyone's safety, she is very friendly and talkative, she is desperately searching for God, she is very smart and wants to learn about everything, she still looks great, when she is interested the sex is fantastic. It is just hard because she has no interest in my #1 love language and her anger is my major love buster.

I hope in time she will realize that I do love her, and she will want to try to be married again. And I hope she will someday be happy and fullfilled, feel loved, and be at peace.

Thanks for getting me through another rough night!