In our case, my WH was told by our pastors not to attend church, until he came in to talk to them. He has refused to do so. It makes me very sad, as we have been members of this church for 20 years.

But one thing that bothers me is that my WH says he is saved, and it doesn't matter that he is still living with OW, who is not a believer.

It's almost like once you are saved you can do whatever you want, and sin as much as like.

I am exremely grateful that my church stepped up to the plate. WH's family support his behavior, and our friends don't say anything to him. It made me feel good that the church took a stand.

As I said, you do not lose your salvation. It says that the church should treat them as a heathen or tax collector. Treat them AS IF they are spiritually dead. Treat them AS IF they have not been saved. That is until they come to repentence.

In His arms.

believer,

I understand your wonderings about salvation and people sinning and continuing to sin knowingly and still being saved. I belonged (for many years) to The Church of Christ, which believes you can lose your salvation. I had to be baptized twice because I'd "lost" my salvation once when I turned away from the church in my 20's.

Although "faith without works is dead"... works alone do not save. It's kind of confusing to me and I know God is not the author of confusion.

I truly believe that whatever *is*, well, just IS. God is one of those issues. No matter what we argue here on earth... God is. If we all decided that God is purple, still doesn't make it so if God is not purple. I can't change God.

Like shunning, then?

And yes, I understand the difference now. Thank you for explaining.

I like Mortarman belive that there is no loss of salvation.

First of all, once bought with a price, you are a child of God. Adopted into His family. If there was nothing you could do to gain salvation, there is certainly nothing you can do to preserve it nor lose it. If there were, then salvation would be by works, which is a direct contradiction to what Scripture teaches.

I liken it to many of us who are born into a family. Over the years, we may do something or a family member does something that causes a separation from the family or breaks ties with the family. A good example is a child that runs away or a family member that breaks off all communication.

In these cases we do not cease to part of the family. We are part of the family becasue we were born into it. Just because one member decides to part or say break communication, does not mean they are no longer part of the family.

Likewise with God, once part of His family, we cannot be removed. Why? Because He said so, and denying it would go counter to God's person. He cannot break a promise and He said once you are in His hand nothing can remove you.

So, I like Mortarman believe that in these cases, we have a simple situation of rebellion, much like the prodical son. At no point did he ever cease being a son in his family and when he reached rock bottom and came home, his father ran after him and welcomed him back home. Likewise should our response be to those that turn around and come home.

I only wish in these circumstances that more churches would follow the Biblical example of Matthew 18.

As my wife continually points out as she looks around at other christians, she sees many of them divorce and then go on and lead (seemingly from the outside) happy lives, and uses that as her barometer! I know it is silly and twisted thinking, but when trying to justify sin, one thinks of all kinds of stuff to fill the void.

johng

I posted this to someone on the recovery board. They were struggling about church. I did not want to type it over hear so I cut and pasted it.

want to apologize in advace for telling my story. If I can help someone or keep someone from making the same mistakes I made I would tell all. I wanted to post to see if I could help some with your decision to leave the church.

DDay was July 6, 2004. I asked my husband what did he and OW think that I was going to do upon his leaving our home. He said they both thought that I would leave the church. I did not. My son and I continued to go there. I beleive that was one of the reasons my husband felt so guilty and confessed when he did.

After DDay we continued to go to our chruch. It was very dificult but we were encouraged by other members to stay. They all thought the OW would leave. Many thought the Pastor would ask her to leave. Well she did not leave nor did anyone ask her to.

Everytime I went to church, for whatever reason, she was there. As I said before we had been there 7 years, my husband played the drums and my son was very active in the youth group.

Seeing the OW was hard. She would flaunt herself in front of me. To be honest with you I do not know how I did it. By Feb 2005 she had joined the church and the drama team. They allowed her to particapte in a drama on marriage. I total freaked out. I had been told that I could not particapte in any ministry because I smoked and I had not forgiven the OW. She could sleep with my husband and it was overlooked. It drove me crazy.

My husband and I did not return. We met with the pastor and shared our feelings. He said they never took any action because they needed a drummer. They needed my husband to play so they allowed her to do what she wanted. I had to sit and watch as my heart was ripped out. He did apologize for the way they had handled things. He said he beleived the OW was a sexual preditor and that he was concerned because she had gotten involved with yet another man in the church.

Staying at that church really delayed our recovery. I do not think we would have recovered if we had stayed. As long as we were at that church my husband would not do a no contact letter. He said the contact had stopped but they still had to see each other. When we left he could see the damage that had been done to me, him, our son's & us as a couple and a family.

True recovery started Feb 2005 when we left the church. It has been wonderful. It is the best thing we could have done.

I guess I am begging you not to stay. Recovery will be so hard and much more painful if you stay. I stayed until I almost had a nervous breakdown. Don't do that to yourself.

Biblically what does this mean? I gues what I am asking is since IMO the pastor did not handle this like it should have been handle so what happens with him?

Mortarman:

I have tried to use umpteen analogies with my W, but of course when the fog is thick, it clouds the mind.

She wonders why I would persue church disciple and I gave her the analogy of our daughter.

I said if our daughter ran away and became a cocaine addict and prostitue, would we no go and GET her? Would we not try and break this life pattern up? Would we not try and get her help? Of course we would. We would do everything in our power to "rescue" her. So, what is the difference? I am only trying to save you from yourself and a future of misery. Should I not try?

What person would let a drowning man drown? Would we not swim out or throw a life perserver to them? Or would we walk by and simply say, good luck, or whatever you want is best for me too!

I also liken this to people who are stuck in a cult. But in those cases, family members physically remove them and take them to deprogrammers! All of this is done to break that dependency!

I know that I am the spiritual head, and I know in the end, I will be held accountable. Therefore, I will err on the side of Scripture. Maybe my motive is off, but I want my wife back and am prepared to do the hard thing here. I will not tolerate her affair!

It is time for some tough love. She says she does not care what others say or think, well we will see how much she doesn't care when our kids find out the real reason for their mother not coming home.

What is God telling me to do? Part of me wants to believe that He is telling me to press forward and then at times I feel He is telling me to extend an arm in grace and love. It's a tough decision, but if needed, I'm willing to proceed because I have to align with Scripture and leave my emotions behind.

Thanks again.

john

Yes they do. My wife did this also. Used their sins to justify hers. But what she didnt see and didnt know was what really had happened in their lives. how the divorce was passed down to their children, and now all of their children were having affairs, or failed marriages (which is what happened with my in-laws...they met thru adultery...and their kids fro mtheir previous marriage...plus my wife...have all been involved in adultery and in divorce). That legacy of pain and destruction goes down 4 generations according to the Bible.

Or other consequences...like loss of joy, emotional problems such as depression, etc. David in the Bible lost his child!! We never know for sure when or wha tthe discipline and consequences will be. But we can know that they WILL come because God has said so. Which makes your wife's rebellion, as mine did, a very dangerous place to be in.

In His arms.

LiftedUp,

There are several passages in Scripture of how God will handle pastors and church leaders that lead people astray. They are people in authority and will be held accountable.

Can you imagine the conversation your pastor will have with jesus upon his death, when he has to explain the lost souls and stunted believers that were the cause of his ministry? And he will say "But Lord...I needed a drummer." It is almost comical, if it werent so deadly serious.

Your pastor is in trouble with the Lord. And he should know that. That he doesnt means he is not in communion with God, and is leading the entire flock in a direction that God does not want him to go. And unless someone holds him accountable and tells him he is wrong and that he needs to repent, then that church will see discipline fro mthe Lord.

If you have tried to do this, and he still will not repent, then it is best that you move to a church that is interested in God's Word.

In His arms.

But the seed is laid. Do not underestimate that!! Deep down in that fog, that seed is germinating. Trust God in that.


These are all good analogies. And again, they are seeds you have left in your wife's mind. They will sit there. And try as she might, she cant make false what is the truth. That is what will continually cause her anguish and pain.


Your motive is fine. it is God's will that your wife gets back to being your wife. So, nothing wrong with wanting the same thing God wants.


Careful. I know what you mean by this, but be careful. That is their mother. I am not saying that you shouldnt tell them, and I am not saying that you dont tell them it is wrong. Just please be careful in how you say it. if it appears like an attack by you, kids will, no matter what their parent did...come to their defense. There is a fine line here. Just please be careful. And on her caring what other people say...that's fine. But she had better care what Jesus has to say. Because she wont be able to ignore Him soon!


John, then here's what you pray..."Lord, I am not quite sure which way you want me to go. So, I am stepping forward on faith that the church discipline way is what you want me to do. If it is not what you want me to do, then please put up walls so that I will be stopped and so that I can discern Your will. But if it is Your will, please open doors for me." That's it. Then you do not have to worry. You know why? Because yo uare stepping forward on faith, as outlined in Scripture, and asked God to do His will and to show you His will.

You are NEVER wrong in doing this. And you WILL find out the right answer!!

In His arms.

Mortarman:

<But what she didnt see and didnt know was what really had happened in their lives. how the divorce was passed down to their children, and now all of their children were having affairs, or failed marriages

Funny you should mention this. I said this to my wife and my MC even said this to my wife. He said what will you do when your daughter comes to you and wants to end her marriage say after 6 years instead of 23. What will you tell her? Will she see you as hypocritical?

Her answer to the MC and to me as well was, "go talk to your father and ask him what he did to cause me to fall into this situation!"

Yep, continually blame me for the whole situation. She still does blame me TOTALLY. She says she has no blame in it and that if it weren't for "me" and the way I treated her, this would never have happened! No truer words could have been spoken from the addicted! The addicted always find blame in someone else for their addiction or problems and never look at themselves, that is until they reach rock bottom.

I also know that she is headed for destruction of some sort if she does not turn around. Our MC also explained to her that she will lead a life of misery, not happiness as she believes. Eventually, when this relationship fails, she will see herself as a failure and this will only lead to further problems with her selfworth. She will continue to withdraw from God and lead a Godless life, without her children and without her Prince Chraming.

All of us know that it IS inevitable and will eventually make itself manifest in her life. I'm just hoping and praying that it is sooner than later.

You/we can run from God as David tried to do, but you cannot hide from God. Just as with Adam, God knows where we are at. Hopefully, my W finds God before He has to come looking for her!

Mortarman,

If my husband has repented of his adultery, can our children still be affected generationally. This has been a question I have been thinking about so I'm thankful you brought it into this conversation.

Lady

Lady,

Not Mortarman, and don't presume to speak for him, but my answer to you would be know in a spiritual sense.

What we are talking about here is UN-repented sin. At some point, the Bible does say, "your sin will find you out."

Again, you can run but you cannot hide. Now, there are consequences to sin and even sin that has been repented. I am remined of Aiken in the book of Joshua. He committed a sin and the penalty was death. He repented, but he was still stoned to death! Think of the murderer, bank robber etc. Even if they repent, they still suffer the consequences of their behavior.

As in the case of repented Adultery, the consequences might be lack of trust, children that have a hard time accepting the fact that a spouse cheated on the other parent, etc. Most of all, just as with accidents that leave scars to remind us of what happened, there are those emotional scars that remain a lifetime.

Yes, there is forgiveness and healing, but many scars will remain for a lifetime. Remember though that God will bury any sin in the deepest depths and never remember it again. Problem is, we are not God and the scars from an affair will probably last forever.

just my 2 cents.

Can he be? Of course! God can do ANYTHING. He heals the blind.

Will He take it away? I do not know that. Sometimes He leaves the consequences for reasons that are not readily apparent to us.

You see, the consequences are there no matter what. We CHOSE to sin. Thus we CHOSE the consequences. But when God gave out free will, He didnt give up his own freewill. So, even though we are responsible for the consequences, he might CHOOSE to take away some or all of the consequences. And He would be right in doing it or not doing it. And whether He did it or not take it away, the consequences still rest with us.

The easy thing to have done is to not have done it. And when we screw up, we hope that it wont be passed on to our kids. But even in repentence, sometimes it is. just ask the crack baby or the woman that passed on a disease to her baby because of adultery.

So, the short answer is "Yes" he can take it away. but He might not. And if He doesnt, you will have to trust that the reason is for His glory and probably to help those involved.

In His arms.

Good stuff John. But one thing I will say...they wont last forever. When we get to Heaven, all of our sins will be gone. We will have new, perfect bodies. There will only be one person in Heaven with scars...you will know Him!

In His arms.

Mortarman:

Forever? I guess I should have been more accurate in my term forever. I did mean only in this world. I realize that once in heaven will will have glorified bodies and all the wood, hay and stubble will be burned up.

Clearly, the scars of our sins are ever present in this world whether visible or not. Afterall, Adam and Eve needed fig leaves to cover themselves after they fell into sin whereas before the fall, they were naked and not ashamed. Likewise, we are constantly trying to cover the scars from our sins with those figurative fig leaves!

Believer, I wanted to respond to your post because it seems like something you said has "gotten lost" in all the posting, but it's a very important thing to consider.

This is something that Paul addressed extensively regarding "Christian liberty" and "Sinning so that Grace might abound." I won't rehash all of that now, as you can look it up easier than I can type it all, but I want to talk about it and opine about it, perhaps as something you could discuss with your husband.

There is that "pesky" little Parable about the soils and the sower. There is that "pesky" little stuff that James wrote about "faith without works." There is that "pesky" little thing that Christ said about sin and "church discipline." And there are other "pesky" little things that touch on reality according to God (and not what we conjure up in our own "fallen" minds to justify sinning).

Believer, a true conversion experience results in a "new creation" spiritually. The Holy Spirit indwells(becomes a permanent part of) ourselves, convicting, teaching, revealing to us God's will and guiding us on the pathway of Sanctification. According to Christ (who is "pretty good" authority on exactly WHAT God means and says), "NO ONE" can snatch a "saved one" out of His hand. In short, it is impossible. Yes, a "saved one" can fall into sin and "get lost" for a while, but, like the Prodigal Son, they never stop being a "child of God." In those cases, Jesus goes looking for them to help lead them back to the "fold." It's really not hard for Jesus to "find them," as the Holy Spirit is "along for the ride wherever they might try to hide or whatever "excuse" they might try to hide behind.

So, let's look at the "logic" of your husband to justify his sinning in adultery.

1. He is saved, so he can do whatever he wants to do. Christ did NOT die on the cross so that he could have a "get out of firey jail free" card, but have NO change in his behavior to become more "Christ-like." What he is saying is the same thing that Satan said to Eve, "God didn't really mean what He said, you will NOT die."

In the parable of the soils, believers are cautioned to "examine thyself" to know that your belief is not merely an emotional reaction to "the moment." When trials come, it is to Christ we are to cling, not to Satan's lies.

I would submit that NO ONE who is living in UNrepentant adultery CAN be "saved" if they die in that state. The Scripture is QUITE CLEAR that among those who will NOT be in heaven are Adulterers. Since adultery is NOT the "one unforgiveable sin," those who have repented of their sin and "returned" to God will be forgiven and will be in heaven. This is the idea behind "you can run but you can't hide from God" and "your sin will find you out." Sin, in the lives of believers, WILL be confronted so that the Holy Spirit can cause "conviction" of the sin in the believer SO THAT they will repent and "get right with God."

IF they steadfastly refuse to repent, and still claim to be a believer, Christ tells the church to "get involved" in the process. We are NOT islands, as believers. We are all part of "One Body, Many Parts." What your husband is saying is essentially that since he is a part of Christ's body (the bridegroom and the bride become "one flesh") it is "OKAY" for Christ to sin and do as He pleases without ANY need to submit to the Father's will. That's precisely WHAT Jesus taught us in the Garden of Gethsemene, right? Jesus chose to "obey His own will" instead of submitting His will to the Father's will, right? Therefore, Christ DID NOT die on the cross FOR US because HE was saved and didn't "have to" be obedient to the Father's will, right?

2. Your husband is NOT saved. There will be many, at the last day, who Christ will tell "away from me, I never knew you." They believed SATAN and not God. They chose to believe a lie and not the truth, in order to satisfy their selfish desires. They, like Lot's wife, "looked back" in disobedience and did not "obey God." After all, what harm can come from "one little look?"

"THOU SHALT NOT"...is no mere suggestion. It is a command of God that allow NO "wiggle room," no "justification" for indulging willful sin, no "trampling underfoot" the tremendous price that Jesus paid for us to rescue us from the penalty of sin.

Does your husband honestly believe that because you are married, it's for LIFE, regardless of what he chooses to do? Don't be ridiculous or that blind. We ARE all "children of God" in the sense that all humans are the created creatures of God the Father. But that will NOT guarantee us the "inheritance" of eternal life with God. Jesus the "bridegroom" brings with Him the "dowry" of forgiveness, restoration, reconciliation, and a "re-creation" of our souls when we "marry Him." It "changes" from an "unevenly yoked" marriage situation to an "evenly yoked in Christ" marriage.

Your husband is playing with his faith as if he were an "unbeliever" married to Christ. IF an unbelieving spouse chooses to "leave" (that is, to take up in adultery with some "other" spouse or chooses to abandon YOU (you being yourself or Christ)), Christ the bridegroom will LET him/her go, just as Paul advises believers caught up in that same situation. Adulterers WILL NOT be in heaven (and therefore are NOT saved)...IF they continue in unrepentant sin. The "works" of the flesh are EVIDENT and EVIDENCE against their self-serving claim to be "saved."

believer - sin, temptations, trials, etc. WILL happen to all Christians. We are admonished to put on the "full armor of God" so that when those things do happen we will be able to withstand, and be able to STAND for God and not be overwhelmed.

Your husband is "playing with fire" in more ways than one. Does he really think that he can "presume upon God" to say "it's okay, you go right on willfully sinning one of the worst sins, and it'll be alright, I won't do or say anything against you." Like God won't say, "Away from me, I NEVER knew you." What awful words awaits many who are caught up in self-delusion by Pride and Selfishness.

Your husband seems to be hiding behind the misuse of the phrase "judge not." Christians ARE commanded to "judge" other Christians, and to use their outward "works," and the statements that proceed out of their mouths(reflecting where their heart is) as evidence of where their soul is...in concert with or enmity with God. The intent is NOT "punishment," the intent is "I AM my brother's keeper." We are to come alongside of struggling Christians to help them to repent and reconcile with God concerning known and willful sin that leads down the WIDE path to destruction. To warn them. To cry out, "Beware, the bridge is OUT if you continue in that direction no matter how "safe" you think you are."

believer, if there is any way that you could print this post out and give it to your husband, I'd urge you to do that. If there is any way to involve the church in "church discipline," I would urge that. IF your husband is saved (and only God knows for certain), then it is incumbent upon us as fellow believers to CONFRONT sin and "call it, and his actions" for what it is.....anathema to God and NOT a part of an Christian's life....regardless of personal feelings. "Thou shalt NOT..." leaves NO room for human argumentation...God HAS spoken and given His decree and judgment. "....nevertheless, not MY will but your will be done, Father."

God bless.

Hey Nyneve,

I blame in all on that old Martin Luther...


One could claim the "prodigal son" approach, but it seems more like a legalistic excuse the Pharisees would use.

Our relationship with God isn't a legal one---we aren't going to win our argument to enter the kingdom with Perry Mason at our side doing an excellent job of advocating all our good points, while minimizing our failures. It's a familial relationship (father:son/daughter). But I think it's a grave misreading of scripture to believe that one's salvation is simply based on "acceptance of Jesus as your savior", with complete disregard to your efforts to follow Jesus's teachings.

Be safe. Believe. Do good. Do not do ill. Pray for forgiveness. Seems to be pretty simple, at least in theory...

Hi K <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,

You know, what you say makes perfect sense...

We must take responsibility for our actions. I totally believe this. And there are consequences - always - for our actions.

...and yet...

I spend my life asking forgiveness... for each and every time I mis-step... sin...

Underlying it all is a fear I'll lose my place in the 'family of God'...

I don't have to ask my mom and dad to let me back in the family when I go against what they have taught... have said... have shown me though example... because I am *always* their daughter... whether I ask forgiveness or not. Am I always God's daughter? I thought so. I think so.

Faith without works is dead... I see that in the Bible. I believe it, too. I can say I am loving, but if I don't act in a loving and compassionate way... who would know it? Who would believe it?

Reminds me of a saying I used to hear: If you were on trial for being a Christian, would they find enough evidence to convict you?

I find this discussion interesting, although it has nothing much to do with divorce and remarriage. Or does it?

Hmmm...

Oh, and the 'shunning' aspect to some people's belief system seems especially cruel to me. Even Jesus went to those we would consider less-than-desireable and drew them into the fold.

I'm in complete agreement with your "rules" and do live by them. Sometimes it concerns me that it isn't enough, that's all.

K - not at all sure what you were referring to, or whose comments you were talking about. But you said something that prompted me to think a follow-up question or two, to you, was in order.

To refresh what it is you said, you said the following:


So, K, are you advocating that salvation is NOT a free gift of Grace and that it must be earned by some modicum of "good works?" If that is so, was the thief on the cross lied to by Jesus when he was told that he would be saved and in heaven THAT day? If not, what "Following of Jesus' teaching's did the thief do other than to believe on Him and accept Him as his Savior?

The "grave misreading" of Scripture you refer to....would that be "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."? (Eph.2:8-9)

Looking forward to your response, to better understand what you might have been trying to say.

btw, K, how did you get a registration date of 1969? I didn't know that MB even existed in 1969!

God bless.