Walls and windows...
After going thru my FWH's A I feel quite differently about how I communicate to men other than my H, and the information that my H & I share (good or bad) about our EN's, our personal histories, our feelings, and relationship etc with members of the opposite gender. What can be innocent at one point in your life can turn into something else later. This is outlined so well in Surviving an Affair. I would just urge great caution in these communications with other women. Maybe they don't make lovebank deposits for you, but how can you know how your words and disclosures of your intimate feelings are affecting Kristin or these other women? This isn't to say you are being dishonest with anyone, including Renee. It is saying that it can be playing with fire.

"SAA" is clear that once enough lovebank deposits are made, the Feeling of Love is triggered. Once this happens, it is very hard to go back in time to pretend those feelings don't exist. This may not be happening now, but how can you know if it will happen in the future?

Although I have never had an A, I now feel that I recognize that the potential for it is within us all if we do not put the appropriate boundaries (walls) around our hearts. Why risk it? I don't view that as totalitarian, just wise, proactive, and cautious...

Thanks everyone, first let me reitterate that Kristin is married. And as Ive said before, I have done months of begging for forgiveness. Its all i do, i cant handle guilt very well hence my honesty, and constant groveling/begging for forgiveness. I am not satisfied with my wifes efforts at asking for forgiveness, but cant really address that issue till i get home.

As faar as looking for people who agree with me, it would be nice, but I'm looking for OBJECTIVE opinions on either side of the spectrum. I dont want someone who's signature line says "unrepentant WH has long history of innapropriate friendships" telling me or implying that my friendship is innapropriate. Several others have advised caution, and that is understandable, and reasonable, its the accusations and presumptions that I am taking issue with. For example "Ray - the problem with Kristen is that she is a distraction. Instead of realizing that you have problems communicating your needs to your wife." Would my sister be considered a distraction? Because thats how I view Kristin. I dont have problems communicating needs, i have problems expressing my feelings in a calm, respectful manner (side affect of being a good soldier/leader), but they get expressed. Kristin and I only talk about once every month or two, and if things are going good its usually a short phone call, I also talk to her family and extended family because as I said before, they are my family. Needs were expressed and met very well proir to my deployment (havent i said this before...?). It seems that some people are only reading one post or a partial post, because I keep having to repeat the same information.

I AM TRULY GRATEFULL for your input, even if i get offended, as Lost said, at least it gets me thinking, and I am hopefully doing a good job of not being disrespectfull or offensive in my replies.

Thank you

Ray

I'd like to point ot that I follow MB as closely as I can. It is not a lack of willingness for Squid and I to share each others pastimes but practicality. I hare as much of Squis sport as I can without actually participating ( she is a 23 year veteran of the sport wheile I would be a complete novice. We could not train together). i *DO* help in teh running of the club which makes Squid feel very good , although it sticks in my throat a bit.

My driving pastime scares Squid, so she would have to spend track days standing by a railing watching me pass every 3 minutes....

And my time alone is,well, time alone.

I adhered to plan A as closely as I possibly could , avoided lovebusters as assiduaously as i could against all instinct.

I backed off several "potentially too intimate" female friendships and all of this was in FAITH that Harley knows about this stuff better than I do.

And so far it has worked magnificently well for us.

I always tell folks that they can do whatever they feel like doing. You can spend no time with your W, and all your time with this 'friend' or TEN friends.

Just don't kid yourself that such is healthy for your marriage. It is not.

Now here's a very personal thing I don;t think I have written before - I committed to rebuilding our marriage and did the stuff indicated. At first i RESENTED having to share my personal time with Squid - this woman who hurt me so badly. I had no place of 'my own' in my life. ButI learned it is the ULTIMATE deliberate intimacy to share your most private time with your spouse.

There can be no runnng away from any issues you have, no hiding your feelings away from your FWS when you feel sad or angry or whatever.

Spending only part of your time together is like working - something you do because you have to then returning to chill out and relax in your OWN space. It is very hard and intimate to invite the woman who hurt you to dwell in your retreat space, but VERY worthwhile IME.

You need to decide if you WANT this sort of R with your wife Ray. Only then will the extreme MB tenets make sense to you.

***I dont want someone who's signature line says "unrepentant WH has long history of innapropriate friendships" telling me or implying that my friendship is innapropriate.***

What you fail to realize is that someone with a sig line like that is the very one in a position to KNOW where you are headed.

I do sincerely apologize for wasting my time on you. Won't happen again.
Mulan

I hear you, ray...my affair worked wonders for my marriage, too.

ray, I will be blunt.

Your words sound like those of an immature man who has more confidence in himself than he should have.

You don't understand your battlefield. You've done a poor job of threat assessment. You are naked on the battlefield. An you don't seem to know it.

That's what the folks here are trying to tell you.

Ray - all this Kristin stuff aside, how is your wife? Do you get to talk to her or at least email her? Do you ever have conversations where you just talk about stuff? Not marriage stuff or affair stuff, just talk. About the weather, friends, whatever!!! Maybe you could both use a conversation like that.

Please open yourself up to what people are saying to you here. Sometimes it's hard to hear, but often times it is the truth.

yes, we talk. we talk every day. sometimes about the marriage, and sometimes about other stuff. we have set a goal of 7 hours a week. this is due to the deployment, and our schedules. if we can meet that I would like to increase it. She is also in IC, were both in MC. She works full time, i work full time half way around the world, but we are making due.
Things are going really going well (despite my continued "innapropriate" contact my friend).
It seems that noone sees that I am conceeding to most of what they are saying, they are focused on the fact that I have a female friend...HOW DARE I!!!! they are only reading what they want to read, so i guess its moot to continue trying to explain it, but Ill try one last time...
Loworbit, if I call kristin with a problem, and she says "well, have you told renee how you feel?" and I say "yes, but she just got upset and wouldn't talk to me about it, just shut me out.", "well how did you say it?", " i just said.....", "well ofcourse she got upset, you cant talk to her like that, I would have hit you if you said some crap like that to me", "well, how should I have said it?", "how about first telling her that you love her alot, and that there is something you need to talk about, then say...", if this is in some way destroying my marriage, then yes, I am immature, overconfident, and just plain stupid, because as far as both RENEE AND I are concerned, we are both greatfull to have had kristin ther to help US through some tough times.
bobpure, i have said it a dozen times, I AM NOT HIDING STUFF FROM MY WIFE. not feelings, not activities, not phone conversations with kristin, not bank records...NOTHING. Please feel free to re-read my other posts on this thread, because I have said it a dozen times. I have also said that WHEN IM NOT DEPLOYED TO A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY FIGHTING A WAR, my wife and i spend almost all our free time together. I may go to the gym without her once in a while if she doesn't feel like working out, or if its time to change the oil, she usually doesn't accompany me for that, but prety much everything else we do together (again, EN's prior to my deployment were being satisfactorily met by both parties).
and thank you mulan for confirming my thoughts on your arrogance. nice to see that you KNOW what will happen in the future. I bet that little trick probably came in handy for you a few times so far...

Ray those words are like gasoline poured on fire.
My husband and I both knew the o/w before she and my husband started their EA.
We both liked her for her compassion and care for my mil at the facility where o/w worked and mil lived.
My husband, over a period of a year, poured out his problems and cried on HER shoulder. She then shared HER Marriage problems.
All was innocent in the beginning. But along the way, my husband fell in love with her, breaking my heart in the process.

Ray, Please listen to me, the o/w also told us in the beginning, that she believes men and woman can be best friends. Ray, they can't. My husband EA is proof of that. I have been married for 26 years to my husband. He has never and I repeat never given me any reason to worry about him having an affair. He would be voted the least likely guy to have an affair.

Do you see what I am saying Ray?

I hope you and your wife find your marriage restored.

Best wishes,
K.D's Heartbreak

Ray, I don't care.

You seem to want permission to have a female confidant and a seperate life from your wife.

It all SCREAMS "red flag"

Good luck. I'm through.

Ray, I just read through all your posts and the replies here.

I guess I am in the same shoes as Kristen regarding so many of my friends. I am the sounding board for many questions regarding their lives.

Male friends have mainly asked me for ways out of financial problems. I know of ways simply because I have had to crawl out of my own debts.

Female friend ask me lot on how to handle personal issues. I have never ever had any sexual thoughts to them, nor received any sexual advances from them. I have always been very honest with my wife about these discussions. I also respect their confidentiality and do not tell my wife everything said – but of every encounter. Most of these encounters are in our home.

Why? I’m not sure. Twenty years old I joined the police in a smallish city/town. Due to a lot of officers going on pensions that year within a year I was assigned a rookie and had to shoulder responsibility. A lot of domestic violence and the dark side of people really age you fast. Nearly 22 years old I come home to my then fiancé in bed with OM. I had the fortitude to channel the pain into something positive and reevaluated my life and direction. Helped to be able to completely leave her and although I didn’t know it at the time do a Plan B. So at the young age of 22 I had more life-experiences than most of my peers.

Went through university along with work. Met my present wife. Changed careers and started a company. Was financially screwed by an unethical partner. Worked it out and am now in a great place in life. All in all my wife and I have stuck together through it all, including a severely premature child.

I guess the reason these people look to me for advice is that I have been in so many situations and always land standing. I am analytical, fair and consistent – even in my mistakes. I also think I have high morals and am fortunate in having a strong religious belief.

Mind you – I’m not saying I’m brighter or better than my friends. If I were smart I would have gone straight to university and then straight for my MBA – rather than slaving away at night school. I did tings to my finace that might explain (but not justify) her affair. I guess I just have the right experience and attitude to listen and answer very honestly – just like Kristen sees to have.

Am I doing anything wrong to my relationship? I have asked my wife and she says she does not resent this. BTW she sometimes hates my analytical mind frame.

I started reading this site when we had some problems that we are working on right now. I also realized some of my problems stem from the affair 20 years ago. I have told you I did not agree with some of the answers I received – but I agree with the principle of MB.

I for one can see a spouse do NC while still working with OP. It’s harder but I could even talk decently to my biggest enemy – as long as the ground rules are set. I see the NC more of a commitment not to carry the affair any further rather than completely ignoring the OP existence. No unnecessary contact with unnecessary being anything to do with the affair. Like I say it is harder – but God gave us a free will and it is up to us to use it. We are not animals controlled by urges. I know for a fact not many agree with this view.


If Kristen was an anonymous user on this site and answered your questions online would that make her better? If she was your MC (yes – the MC has to either male or female) should you cut off contact? If Kristen is helping you and your wife then please carry on talking to her. Take the benefits of MB and use them. Review them analytically and logically – not only the way you want to hear them. Be very honest in your evaluation – even when you hear things you don’t want to hear.

I must say I am a bit disappointed that some of you have just given up on Ray. I understand that we all see things differently from him, but just because he does not fall over and agree with us does not mean we should give up on him. He is a man looking for help. In the end he will probably "get" everything that we are all saying.

IMO it seems to happen a lot here when someone does not 100% agree with the advice given people just stop trying to help. What works for one does not always work for another. We are all either BS or WS and have dealt with our situations differently. That is what is so great about this site and the world. People are different. Situations are different. What I do is read and ask and take bits of info from everyone and apply it to my own situation.

Bob - I really hope you are not through with Ray because your advice is good and from one man to another is sometimes better than advice from all us gals!

Sorry if I upset anyone, but this is just MHO.

Ray needs our help. There are not many of us, if any over in Iraq right now fighting for our marriage. This must be awfully hard for him.

And Ray - My advice to you is...listen to what these people are saying to you. You sound so angry all the time. Really take some time and read and absorb before you post an emotional reply. I believe you are trying to save your marriage. Let us help!

Bigger, it is obvious you don't know the concepts behind MB or else you wouldn't feel that it was ok to council members of the opposite sex, and then offer your own life example of it working for you.
One of the main reason one should not use a friend of the opposite sex to confide one's problems is because every single time you share a personal problem with the opposite sex you build up love points. All these encounters add many points to your lovebank. If you reach a certain level and you love bank overfills, what you have is another person involved in a EA, and if both parties respond and continue on, eventually it will probably lead to a physical affair. Heart break for everyone.

IMHO, if one must confide in another, choose a person who has favorable opinion of your marriage and is of the opposite sex.

Sincerely,
K.D.'s Heartbreak

If I come across as angry or emotional, i apologize, but again I offer that fact that some on this board are ACCUSING (not asking) me of things with no possible knowledge of MY situation. For example bobpure using the word "seperate" when I have repeatedly said that I am totally open and honest with Renee. Or Mulans crazy accusation that I complain about "HAVE"ing to spend time with my wife. Can someone plese show me where in any of my posts i complained about spending time with my wife? Its nowhere to be found, why? because i never said anything of the sort, she fabricated this, probably from her own experiences with her WH. They are of the mindset that "this is how it happened to me, so this is how it will happen to everyone, period."

In everyone of my replies i have tried to address the issues and questions posed by posters, but not too many have directly answered any of the questions I posed in respose, for example my challenge to Mulan to show me where i complained about spending time with my wife, no answer, instead, she gave up.

I will pose the same question here as I did under the post for bobpure, (which everyone is welcome to read, but i was afraid he wouldnt come back to this thread, so made a new post)

What specific characteristics define a friendship as innapropriate? KD listed one confiding marital problems to a member of the opposite sex, I am guilty as charged. What are some others? And of those other characteristics, how many of them does my friendship meet? You post the characteristics, and Ill reply honestly as to whether or not it fits my situation.

"I know that in practice, it would "affair proof" your marriage, but it seems like you give up any other types of freedom."

"why should you give up something you enjoy doing?"

"Im a pretty black and white, right and wrong kind of person, but this one seems to totally eliminate any grey area, no wiggle room. "

"so why cant i go for a run without her, and why cant she go to water aerobics without me?"

"It almost sounds like a totalitarian type of control, "zero personal time, zero personal space"

You did not post here asking how you could spend more time with your WIFE.

You posted here asking how you could make it okay to spend time with KRISTIN.

If you do not understand how backward this is, then I submit that you are not a married man at all -- you are just a single guy who has a wife. It's NOT the same thing.

And just for the record, my WH (who is indeed not a married man, but just a single guy who has a wife) uses many of the same phrases you do. He complains mightily that all this stuff is "controlling" on my part and that marriage SHOULD contain "grey areas."

He also says that I am "crazy" and that I "fabricate things" - even when those "things" are in hard copy black-and-white printed out from his e-mail.

Good luck. You'll need it. Try ordering and reading *Not Just Friends* by Shirley Glass. Oh, and you're welcome.
-- Crazy Mulan Who Fabricates Things

ray3,

Hello. I too am in the Military and understand completely the issues you deal with on a deployment away from home. I did a tour in Korea. I am on a stateside deployment now. If you are in an area where it is hot, stay safe and do the things you have been trained to do. Time will pass and you will be home soon.

Being open and honest is a great thing. Never stop doing that. My guilt-ridden personality acted opposite and my MO became hide everything from everyone. Unfortunately, my behavior made accountability impossible, and that was fertile ground for me to listen to temptation. No one would know. All that. For you, remain accountable. In everything. That helps an M.

As for your relationship with Kristen, here's the real poop as I see it. She may be a friend from way back. Just one of the guys and such. A fact is a man having a relationship with a woman that is not his wife is a risk factor. If this friend is also a friend of the wife, then the risk is lessened. A mutual friend is better than a female friend singular to you. Talking to this female friend about your personal relationship with your wife increases the risk. If she knows things about your relationship with your wife, like happiness or lack thereof, friction between your spouse and you, problems you have, it is POSSIBLE that your friend COULD use this knowledge to her advantage and play into the things you WANT so you start to fall for her. It's possible. Then again, it is possible that you could have a friendship-boundaried relationship with Kristen and never sleep with her. Some of the important factors to pay attention to is does Kristen fill any need for you that your wife is not? If so, risk increased. Does your wife totally agree with you talking to Kristen and, possibly, does she talk to Kristen as well? Mutual friend and all of that? If so, risk decreased.

The point is having a relationship with a woman that is not your spouse is a risk. Doesn't mean you are guaranteed to sleep with her. Doesn't mean you are guaranteed not to either. A risk. So, identify it as a risk and then you have to make your decision as to what you want to do with that. I am not going to tell you to be all out or all in because I do not know your situation exactly, but I will tell you it is a risk... because it is. Driving down the road is a risk. People participate in that all the time, and for as much as some here might want to shoot that down as an example, the fact remains. It is a risk. Writing off any risk out of hand because "oh come on... nothing bad will happen on the road" is shortsighted. Identify the risks in your life and then place control measures against them to lessen those risks. Standard military risk assessment. Maybe that means you stop talking to Kristen period. Maybe it doesn't mean that. You will be the one responsible for managing that risk in your life.

For your interpretation of the principles here, I don't think there is anything wrong with going on a hunting trip. It can be made wrong(strip club runs, women on the trip and so on) but it doesn't sound like you are doing that. Your wife will have at least one thing she likes to do that either you don't like or she just likes to do herself. Same for you. Look at POJA for your answer on this. But be careful to not make it a 'win/lose' discussion. POJA is about NEGOTIATION. You want something. She wants something. Then you negotiate. It is hard to negotiate if you are not used to it. Frozen(my wife) and I have made it a win/lose deal for a long time. We are learning about this stuff too... but NOT making it win/lose sure seems to be helping.

last thing. Filtering your thoughts through another woman before you talk to your wife. Might seem like a harmless, and even helpful, thing to do. I think a better way would be to learn how to communicate with your wife. Talking to her directly without anyone elses influence ensures she gets the absolute truth from you. Just something to think about, but I can imagine scenarios where you filter something through kristen and the message changes a little to become something not so real. Not really you. Just learn to have tact with your wife. You can learn that. You can learn to communicate the way she likes and needs.

Anyway, I hope I have given you some things to consider, and maybe I have helped.

Take care of yourself.

Ray,

What a thread! There seems to be a lot of great information and advice floating around amidst some pretty rampant emotions!

First, I applaud you for seeking the answers to your questions. I, like you, ask a lot of questions and then play devil's advocate. It sometimes comes off as defensive, but really it's just me trying it on and seeing how it can apply to my situation and to understand it completely. It sounds to me as though that is what you are doing here.

Keep in mind that infidelity is a subject that is touchy. A lot of the responses you receive may be based more on someone else's past experiences and some of that will often influence a poster's position. Every situation is not alike, and just because someone else sees similarities to their own situation, that doesn't necessarily mean that your situation is identical.

You seem like an intelligent guy and I trust you'll be able to discern between advice and someone reading something into your words that triggers something about their own situation, which of course can result in some pretty strong emotions on both sides.

I don't think you sound defensive, in general. I think you are trying to learn. Again, I applaud you for that.

The important thing is to keep an open mind about true advice and let the other stuff roll off your back. The open mind thing is important, though. I hope you don't allow any judgments to hinder you from learning or sticking around. Again, this can be a highly emotional place.

I wanted to point out something you said that shouted at me because it relates to my situation...



Does your wife feel like want to spend time with her? I realize you are deployed right now, but what about pre-A?

Also, my FWH (Patriot) had some great points about risk assessment and POJA. We did have a lot of difficulty applying this principle - still do, but we are just beginning to recognize how black and white we were making things. We WERE making it out to be a win/lose scenario. The key to POJA is negotiation. We weren't negotiating at all. We were each stating what we wanted (which often were opposing wants) and then feeling like one of us had to give something up in order to make the other happy - win/lose. We were focusing more in the AGREEMENT portion of the concept, as opposed to the NEGOTIATING part of the concept. The key is in the negotiation. It's difficult to find some agreement on an issue without the negotiation factor.

Keep posting. Keep feeling your way through these concepts. Keep researching. You have stated a lot of hypothetical situations - what about a real issue? I can understand why you might be hestitant to throw out a real scenario for fear of feeling attacked, but try sifting and focusing on those posters who you are able to identify with and understand until you master that. Maybe then you can fend of any attacks - perceived or otherwise - and gain something from those, too. Baby steps. You don't have to master all of these concepts at once, just one bite at a time. If not, you can find yourself pretty overwhelmed.

Which of your questions seems like it would be something you might be able to use and apply RIGHT NOW?

You're doing something positive by exploring. Maybe you're trying to understand too much in too short a time frame.

Hang in there.

Froz

Mulan, nice to have you back. I apologize again for taking offense at some of your remarks, but they seemed to be (and some still seem to be) intended as attacks on me and my moral character, and the moral character of my friend. I will say that you quoted me out of context above. The "runnig with my wife", and the "wiggle room" posts were in reference to the Recreational companionship chapter of HN/HN where it says basicaly that you should not engage in ANY activity that your wife cannot enjoy with you. Through this post (i.e. bob pures post about his racing), i have come to understand that it is more of a POJA issue, as long as both parties are happy with the arrangement then it is OK, and infact beneficial to the marriage. I NEVER complained about spending time with my wife. Then you go back to making accusations again, saying that I am not a married man, and then comparing me to your wayward husband, and being generally condescending. Ill take the advice from others on this board, and take your advice as words of caution, rather than the direct personal attacks I percieve them as, and say thank you. I hope in my future posts you continue to offer your experiences for my benefit.

To everyone else, am i basically correct to view my realtionship with Kristin as a possible threat to my marriage (if Im not careful), but a threat that is controllable as long as I am aware of it, and take some simple precautions (not terminating the friendship, but keeping it like it is, open, helpfull, and pro marriage, and being on the lookout for anything that would become detrimental)?

Ray, the problem is, even if your friendship with this woman is purely innocent /platonic… even if you are totally open and honest with your W about this friendship… even if your W is 100% okay with the friendship… even if the friend is sincere in her efforts to help… even if YOUR motives is 100% pure and you can be 100% trusted… even then... this friendship is STILL a danger to your M…

WHY?

Because:

1) This friend is filling some very important EN’s for you – she is filling your love bank.

2) You are already emotionally attached & depended on this friend and for this reason you might be at risk of "falling in love" with her sooner or later (this might happen as soon as the amounts of love units in his love bank reaches the threshold and trigger romantic love for her). At this stage you might think it will never happen because you see her as your “sister” but the fact is, she ISN’T your sister or a family member of yours.

It IS very inappropriate for a man to discuss his marital problems with a opposite sex friend and doing this (discuss marital problems) is one of the components of an EA. So you are partly involved in an EA with your friend already… This friendship is inappropriate and the fact that you are so unwilling to put up proper boundaries with this friend and stop having intimate conversations with her about your M, is another warning sign to me…

IMHO, if this woman is a REAL friend of you, your W and this M, she will set up healthy boundaries with you and discourage you from discussing your marital problems with her. In stead she will encourage both of you to seek Marriage Counselling together or at least NOT allow you to discuss marital problems with her alone... This woman must be aware of your unhealthy and inappropriate emotional attachment & dependency towards her, yet she continues to allow you to discuss these things with her... Therefore I will be very doubtful of this woman’s REAL motives if I were you… She's too willing to be your 'counselor' and 'confidant'. She is not your sister or a qualified counsellor and it unhealthy to treat her as such. Also, you might view her as a SOLUTION to your marriage problems, but at the moment she is PART of the problem because again, you are emotionaly dependant and attached to her... So much that you are not willing to reduce the friend's involvement in your life and reduce the friendship to a level where it will be appropriate & not dangerous for you and your M...

One of the things to keep in mind with opposite sex friendships is that the element of opposite sex attraction will always exist and be a possibility between a man and a women who are not blood-related…especially if the friends begin to share personal & intimate problems and have personal discussions like marital problems etc. This type of discussions cross boundaries; builds emotional intimacy & attachment between friends; deposits love units in love banks and make the element & possibility of opposite sex attraction more intrinsic and a possible danger to a M.

Why taking the risk? Rather seek out a same sex friend or professional counsellor and keep the friendship with this woman purely safe & platonic (and this includes stop sharing intimate and personal details about yourself and the M with her alone). Also, become friends with this friend and her H as a couple and include your W in the friendship. It's much safer, it will help to "safe-guard" your M from a possible threat and it will help to protect you and your W.

Suzet, I agree with most of what you say in the context of a "POSSIBLE THREAT" to the marriage. Except the part about "I will be very doubtful of this woman’s REAL motives if I were you", its here, as before, where the accusatory nature of the statement is causes me to take issue. PLEASE do not accuse my happily married friend of 10+ years of INTENTIONALLY trying to disrupt my marriage. Also, its not an affair if i would do it infront of my wife, Dr. Harleys own words. So the EA accusation may not be accurate (I havent researched EA's much, but I think it has to do with falling in love w/o the physical contact), I love kristin like a sister, nothing more. The thought of kissing her on the lips, much less any other physical contact, makes me feel uncomfortable. It turns my stomach just like the thought of sleeping with my sister would. NOT an exaggeration, im an getting naseaus writting this post now.

I do have a question though. Right now my life is turned upside down. I have no mature male friends i can talk to (they are typical macho juvenilles "id leave the B...", or "Your a wussy, reading thos books...", that type of crap), and if I dont talk to anyone I wont survive this. I talk to my family, and to Kristin, and her family. They are the only ones who support my decision to work things out. So again I ask how this is detrimental to my marriage. This is not argumentative. I HONNESTLY dont see how we can categorically make that kind of statement. Again, i see the risks, but they can be mitigated with proper precautions. But limiting the conversation, and not discussing anything remotely personal, to me seems to say "hey sis, I know we been through alot together, but i cant trust you. you are a woman, and therefore trying to seduce me, so from now on we will only discuss stock prices and the mating habits of the south american grub worm." What kind of intimate details about the marriage are forbidden? Can I discuss prior issues that have already been solved? Can I discuss things that are not problematic in out relationship? Can I discuss things we are doing together? I have often (in the past) asked Kristin for sex advice (how to better please women, tricks of the trade... etc), but can easily see how this could be innapropriate NOW that we are both married. Havent done that in years, so lets not start the scheisse storm im sure that would have brought... LOL.

Now that I understand the definition of an innapropriate relationship with other women (i think i do anyway), what about innapropriate conversational topics?

Ray - You have lots of "friends" to talk with, both male and female here on MB. I still recommend that you place most of your rebuilding efforts on hold until you return. Keep in daily contact with your W, but try to limit the relationship talks.

Rebuilding your M is hard enough without a deployment thrown in... Right now, it seems that your W is willing to rebuild with you and you with her... that's great news for both of you. You can try to do this while your deployed, but for me, I found that it was just too much and it was too easy to misread an e-mail or take things out of context when we'd talk over the phone.

Keep reading here and posting your questions here... You've got to stay focused over there and not try to "fix" everything in your M right away. You'll have the rest of your life to rebuild your M once you get home.

Thanks for your service and for all that you are doing for our nation... keep your head down and let your "friends" here at MB help you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,
RIF