She is very stubborn. I asked, but I don't really expect her to respond in a helpful way. Stressmeter just maxed out again.

So at this point it sounds like she's totally back out of the repentant and bottomed out mode back into "ME ME ME!" mode?

My take is this...if you let her start establishing these 'boundaries' again, things are going to go right back to where they were. My take is this...confront her with that weekend that she went haywire...make it VERY clear that you're not going to sit by and idly watch something like that happen again. You're not going to accept her doing things like what she's described...once was a mistake...a HUGE mistake...but still a mistake. Doing so again, KNOWING what the risks and the impacts are going to be...is not a mistake...it's a BAD CHOICE.

Personally...I'd lay down the line here...let her know that she needs to make her choice NOW...RIGHT NOW. No more waffling, no more "ME ME ME" mode. Either end the teenage porn queen lifestyle, or find a new place to live...one completely without you and the family. That's the only choices I personally see at this point...grow up or get out.

I don't mean this as an attack...but if something doesn't happen to make her make a decision to fix things here, she's just going to keep cake eating...living the lifestyle of a young unmarried woman, while having the benefits of a home and family and husband to take care of her while she's doing that. If you don't change the equation, you'll ALWAYS get the same answer.

You can let her know that you don't want her to go, and if she does go, you will assume the worst, that she is going to meet the OM and to have sex.

A couple of things will happen...

She will try to assure you nothing is happening, and will prove it in every possible way...

She will try to assure you nothing is happening, and will try to defend her 'freedom'...

She will not go...

In anything but the last option you can assume something is going on...and when she gets home, more STD and pregnancy testing, and although you may never get the entire truth, will know something is going on...

Why would a married woman, in recovery, not want to protect her H's love and NOT travel away?

Yes, you can assume she is going there to meet OM, and things are far worse than you can imagine...

The burden of proof is upon the WS to PROVE there is NC and they are not up to something...this is not PROVING to you that nothing is up...

You can tell her something like, "Honey, we have been trying to rebuild our M and this trip is not helpful. If I were convinced you were going there for solely business purposes, then I would be OK, but I will assume you are going there for OM."

You will hear her be indignant, apologetic, denying, angry...you name it...trying to manipulate her way into going...to get her fix...

I can understand where the conference MAY be required by her company for her to attend...even if she didn't have to attend last year.

BUT...she is going to have to come up with some SERIOUS measures to keep herself out of trouble...she's going to have to come up with some definite methods to make sure that YOU are aware of what she's doing the whole time...and she's going to have to be able to PROVE that she's not doing anything on this trip...even if she doesn't want to.

I didn't ask..is this an overnight trip? Have you considered calling her boss and ASKING if this is a mandatory trip? Perhaps simply saying "Pardon me, but I'm 'so and so's' husband, and I know that she's got this trip that she has to go on...right now we're having some major difficulties in our lives, and I simply wanted to verify with you that this trip was indeed mandatory for her to attend.". See what the response is.

As for the going out on Thursday...you got my thoughts there.

Thanks Owl and Still. Sorry I wasn't clear. It's not an overnight trip. Conference is in our city tomorrow and Wed at least. It may go more days; not sure. There would be no reason or excuse for WW to be out overnight. I don't expect that she would do that. I just can't understand why she would want to attend, knowing OM is likely to be there. OM lives in our city too.

It particularly bothers me that the happy hour is Wed night - I suppose that's when she is most likely to see OM - and then Thurs night is WW's request to go out by herself. Okay maybe nothing's up, but surely WW must realize that the combination doesn't look nice.

I understand the argument to discuss with her boss, but of course I will not. That would be inappropriate, and could embarrass her professionally. I care about her far to much to do that. Worst of all it would be controlling, and I very sincerely want to keep control out of our M from now on.

I want to discuss with WW face-to-face tonight. Have already sent WW an email with my questions and objections. Will listen to her and discuss.

Why would a married woman, in recovery, not want to protect her H's love and NOT travel away?

BECAUSE YOUR WIFE IS "NOT" IN RECOVERY. YOU MIGHT BE BUT NOT YOUR WIFE. AS EVIDENCED BY THE RECENT EPISODE IN THE CAR.

This raises great concern for me and should for you too. What does happy hour have to do with this event? It is a purely social event and not necessary. I face this occasionally with my FWxW and her work. I remain steadfast and she agrees NC with her long ago PA. Her EA with the guy at her office (that went PA AFTER our divorce) is different. There are no social events, nothing at all, even "all" e-mails from him. We do not attend anything (NOTE I SAID WE) he will be at as there is one thing I have promised and that is to not be mature about him in the same room with me. Last night we (NOTE I SAID WE) attended the wake of the owners parent. I have not seen these people in years and they were great to me, gracious for my attending. Thing was I was awfully wound up about her "not thinking" about how I would react if he was there. He was not there when I was. I went for her (she begged me to go) and out of respect for the owner. However, it could have ended up "all about me"...cause I would have cracked him where I saw him, in the parking lot, the line, inside and that angered me somewhat. Many people from her office have never seen me and apparently one young woman commented to another that "I was gorgeous, how could she have been w/ OM"...she got quite upset...and angry...and for the first time commented on how she hates it that people feel its OK to make comments like that....she alienated herself there wnh...I did not need to do a thing....I feel really strong as an executive and an employee....you do not have "friends" at work...ad you certainly do not crap where you eat....

My point is your WW is not considering your feelings at all. Ask if you can go with her.

The fact that she wants an evening alone is worse. I think that you need to keep your boundries and prepare for plan B....this is a step backwards

You won't like this any more than I do. We talked about it last night. WW was apologetic, and said she should have approached the topic in a better way so as to not make me defensive. People make mistakes. We all do. I think she just made a mistake in approaching the topic with me the way she did.

WW feels she needs to be at the meetings. She volunteered that if OM were there she would walk away. Under no circumstances will WW speak with him. I don't feel good about it, but she has a strong need to be trusted right now, even though she hasn't earned trust yet. So I'll trust her while grinding my teeth and getting ulcers.

I plan to discuss again with WW tonight to make double sure she understands how I feel about it and intends to stick to her plan. Similarly re Thursday night.

WW is well-aware of her self-destructive behaviors, and is determined to get it under control. She is seeing a therapist for that purpose. That also makes me feel a bit better - at least she's not denying and ignoring the problem!

I've called OMW too; OMW thinks OM won't even be at the event. Anyway she will keep informed as to what he is doing this week, particularly Wed and Thurs nights.

If something inappropriate should happen either night, I think I'll be able to tell.

WNH-

She needs a better plan than "I'll just walk away". Suggest to her that she hang with a female friend the whole time that she's there...so that there is no way that OM can get the chance to talk to her alone.

Let her know that attending any kind of associated "happy hour" with this event is NEVER mandatory, and would be a VERY bad idea considering all that she's been going through recently. Ask her bluntly to come home directly at the end of the meetings, instead of attending something like this.

As far as Thursday...same deal. Make it clear that going out by herself right now is a BAD idea...period. Perhaps...JUST perhaps, you might suggest that she go out with a female friend that you BOTH trust to help her keep out of trouble? If that's not acceptable, then she needs to stay home...right now, she's not safe to let out on her own...and she should know that. What does her therapist say along these lines?

Continue to compare stories with OMW.

Perhaps you could get one of her co-workers to keep an eye on her while she's at this event? I'd even suggest you show up at lunch time at the event and see if she goes anywhere with OM.

So she's humble and apologetic...if she wants to make up for what she's done...she needs to change her actions so that she doesn't do it again!!!

Man, you have this SO wrong...

You NEVER extend trust to an untrustworthy person. It takes time for her to earn that trust back. From what I can see she's not done much to earn it back.

I don't want to be mean, but you are foolish for extending this trust to her. I'd bet my bottom dollar she's up to no good.

Why can't you go with her? I wouldn't give her the choice...tell her you WILL be there and you are looking forward to having a wonderful time WITH HER!

Low

I could understand why he can't attend a conference session for her work...no more than my wife could attend one where I work at.

BUT...if my wife were truly worried about my behavior, I would look for ways to reassure her that I'm not going to get into trouble...I would come up with a PLAN on how to avoid trouble. My expectation is that his wife should do the same.

And I totally agree that he shouldn't trust her...SHE shouldn't trust her at this point!!!!!!!!!!

He needs to tell her this...bluntly, calmly, even as lovingly as possible...but tell her the TRUTH. She ISN'T trustworthy yet...and she's going to have to take some measures to regain that trust...starting with learning how to earn that trust back...both for herself AND for him!

I think WW somehow sees this as a trust-building exercise. If I trust her and she does the right thing then she will feel stronger etc. The difficulty is that she's taken so many wrong turns lately. I really want her to take the right turn for a change. It could happen.

It's really Thursday night that concerns me. It's just not like WW to go out by herself, it doesn't feel right to me. It would be right after our group MC. She wants to take 2 cars to group MC, then leave by herself after that. But that group MC location is a good 40 miles from downtown, where she normally hangs out with friends, and where OM lives. It just doesn't feel right. I need to understand.

Sorry - your wife has it all wrong. FIRST she does the right thing, and THEN you trust her. She sounds very, very foggy to me.

Exactly, believer...

The only "trust building exercise" that really works is to make you life an open book and INVITE your spouse to scrutinize you.

Is you wife doing this? NO...she's keeping the book closed and hoping you'll not pry.

As far as going to the conference...I was speaking more to the associated social events.

The last conference I had in another city - I took my wife with me. She shopped and goofed off during the day and came to all social functions at night.

Why can't you make this work?

I agree that the Thursday thing is a really bad idea. You should ask her if you can with her...her response will be telling.

When she says "You don't trust me" simply tell her "You're right, I don't. Letting me see what you are doing will help rebuild my trust in you. Are you willing to help me do that?"

Thursday is bad.

Low

I couldn't agree more re the trust-building. Completely upside-down and backwards.

But wait there's good news. WW just called to say she was going with a couple (old friends of ours) Thurs night, and invited me along. Man what a relief! I've rarely heard better news.

So what was that all about?! Was she just testing to see if I trusted her? Temporary loss of sanity on her part? Maybe she did have plans with another man and he cancelled? Or WW realized it was wrong and cancelled? I just really really really don't get it. We'll talk tonight.

I'll just mention that for Wed (tomorrow) night she is committed to leave by 7PM in order to be home for the kids by 8PM. It's still not good that she's going to the cocktail hour at all.

this will do nothing to "build trust" but will erode it. How in the world do you think that arranging to go to a meeting with the OM will "build trust?" That is nuts. If she wants to build trust, then she should demonstrate trustworthy behavior. And trustworthy behavior means avoiding the OM [/i] all costs. What y'all are doing is playing Russian Roulette with your recovery.

As Harley says: "I am adament that all contact end for life even if it means a career change or moving to another state."

Breaking her avowed no contact will NOT build trust, it will ERODE it. She needs to END ALL CONTACT for life, wnh, if you want this to work.

wnh, the idea is to end contact FOR LIFE with the OM. She should avoid any place where he will be. That is the LEAST she can do if you are willing to take her back.

I am confused about why you are relieved, you shouldn't be.

wnh..I'm beating a dead horse with this but I'm with Mel...avoiding the OM is something she must do at all costs. In my case she when she was contacted via phone she told him no contact not even for work. He then sent an e-mail months later. I told her to flat out tell him never again. He has absolutely no reason to contact her when there are others she can and has delegated the work to. She knows if he contacts her again I will get in my car and make the 7 hour drive to his house (or office whatever)and tell him myself.

You have little reason to trust her. My XW gets upset when I look at her e-mail. She says it is because I do not trust her. My response is I trust no one blindly any longer. There are reasons why I check on her and it is insecurity not trust. I would not be where I am with her if I did not trust her. However, she has been capable of pulling off some pretty ugly actions....

Be relieved when she accepts your lack of trust as something she brought on.

I'm just not getting the logic behind the "building trust" by seeing OM angle here. If I am a newly recovering alcoholic am I "building trust" by having a small "social" drink? Or do I "build trust" by abstaining altogether and staying out of bars?

I don't know if I could have stopped myself from bursting out laughing when she said she was going to see OM at a meeting to "build trust?" I mean, I have heard alot of WS fogese around here, but that one is a beaut!


My H said this to me once. And I agreed! I said "OF COURSE I DON'T TRUST YOU!! Otherwise I would have no reason to check your email." I was shocked that he would imagine that I would trust him after he had had an affair and lied to me. What a strange notion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

p.s. just for the record I do trust my H again because he EARNED that trust by demonstrating trustworthy behavior. I will never blindly trust anyone again.