I was in your WH's shoes just recently. You can see my posts if you search for SNT as the poster. Man, the fog is real and he is dead in the middle of it. The most important thing is to NOT TRUST anything he says. It doesn't matter that he says, it sounds like he is in full blown fog babble. He needs a kick in the pants or somewhere else now because he isn’t going anywhere. Trust me, he isn’t.

It seems like you are coming up on a month or so of "discussing" it with him. I want to tell you what my W did that made me a FWH instead of a permanent WH. Things are going real well between us now and I am so thankful for everyone on this board. It made a big difference. I just want to state a few ideas that helped my situation. There may be some on this board that won't agree but here are some ideas.

1. You really need to establish inflexible boundaries like a bunch of people have said. It sure sounds like you are flexing your boundaries depending on what happens. If he is being nice, it is not time to let your boundaries in some. If he is being ugly, it is not time to extend your boundaries. Keep them there, well defined. By this time in your situation, you should be telling him to sleep on the couch or in an apartment. Granted that would give him more time to see the OW but like others have said, you can't control him. My wife asked me to leave and I did. I did talk to the OW every night for more time than I was but it eventually sank in how much I missed my family. If he is getting his family, cuddling in your bed with you, and getting to stay out with the OW as long as he wants, he is not losing anything so why change? Post your ideas on what boundaries you think are significant and you will get feedback.

2. If you do ask him to leave, ask him questions like when does he want to see his son this week? That drove me crazy. It made me think about what divorced life would be like. If he is an active dad, this will make him stop and think hard.

3. What I would tell him would be something like this (knowing what I needed to hear). Don’t send an e-mail. BE STRONG! You have to let him know that you are strong when it comes to this. You can even read something you have written down so you cover everything you want to.

XXXXX, I want this marriage to work. Don’t say anything while I am saying this. After I am done, I am not going to talk about it anymore right now. You need to think. I can’t control you or your actions. What comes out of your mouth is lies so it is useless to discuss this without creating further damage. It is clear to me that the only way our marriage and our family will survive this is if all contact between you and (the beast) stops immediately. This decision is entirely up to you. I am not responsible for starting this affair and I am not responsible for ending it. I cannot make you stop calling, texting, e-mailing, visiting, or seeing (the beast). You have hurt me emotionally so that I feel it is necessary to create specific boundaries to protect myself from further pain. I do not want you to sleep in my bed anymore. If you are going to continue to have long nights out with the OW, you need to move out so that I will not have to see you coming in at all hours of the night. You obviously do not realize how much that is a slap in my face and your son’s face. I will be polite in front of (son) but otherwise please do not fake it with me as I am in protection mode. I am looking after myself. If YOU decide that your marriage is important enough, we can discuss the steps later that will be necessary to begin to rebuild trust.

If he tries to talk, just tell him that now is not a good time for you to discuss it.

When he comes home, make sure the phone book is put in a place where he will see it but it still looks secret, open to the attorneys page (a la ARK).

And, I can’t agree more with ARK that you need to go out and start doing things with friends on your own. Call your girlfriends and set up a time to go see a chick flick. Stay out and get dessert. Have him watch your son or get your parents to. Just don’t invite him. He needs to know that you don’t need him – that you have the ability to move on. If he is staying with you because he feels sorry for you, you can’t possibly want that. And you really need to do something fun and not sit around and dwell.

You can take what I said or leave it. Like I said, I was just in your H’s shoes. As soon as I went NC, it was SO much easier. I was getting the bulk of my marital advice from the OW. So twisted, I know. When I stopped hearing about how much sex I would get, how she would NEVER do anything that my W did that bothered me, that she would work every day to make me so happy, etc…, things became much clearer. I realized that my W was willing to do all those things too!

Heck, tell him to e-mail me at tsargentjr@aol.com if he wants some real world examples. I was just in his shoes.

I’ll be praying for you “trying”. I hope you are praying for you, your son, and your husband also. My W even told me she would pray for the OW too. Talk about some serious guilt on my part…

Your friend,
SNT

What comes out of your mouth is lies so it is useless to discuss this without creating further damage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

NOW that's one good boundary...................

well stated
no powerstruggle allowed............

perfection!!!!!!

and NOT because you agree with me SNT...but because that is dead on good advice...and good phrasing...........

ARK

I agree with everything that is being said here EXCEPT telling your H that you don't need him and such...

In my situation, that would have driven him straight into the arms of the OW...

The OW, in my situation, not as much of a WHORENA (I don't think)...as your OW is though, gave my FWH the message that she loved and cared for him more than I did and that "I DID NOT NEED HIM"....

Be careful about this is what I am saying...

Pay attention to what your WH's particular Emotional Needs are...

I think PLAN A is essential for Marital Recovery even in situations such as yours....

As I have said in other threads, your H sounds NO WORSE than mine WAS....

Even though I am saying this about the need to analyze HIS particular needs...

I do think it's essential to GAIN HIS RESPECT and to DEFINE YOUR BOUNDARIES but all the while continuing to indicate that you want to WORK ON YOUR MARRIAGE...

I agree with the need to communicate with him, as I said before, face-to-face...BLEW MY HUSBAND AWAY when I was finally able to do this, saying over and over: "I DO NOT CHOOSE TO SHARE YOU WITH ANYONE ELSE..

That's my opinion....

Pep:

I hope you don't mind if I quote you here. This says all and so much more of what I was trying to say to TRYING..She needs to evidence BOTH the CARROT and the STICK..IMHO....

[quote]The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

--------------------

I really didn't mean for you to insinuate that you are not trying to work towards a good marriage. I meant that you need to stop letting him walk over you. He needs to know (and figure it out for himself) that there is a decision to be made here. He can't expect that he will be able to go out at night and you will be waiting in bed for him when he gets home. You need to present him "your" option. The option that you present needs to be honest. I can tell you have the ability to be a strong, moral, person. Someone that obviously cares about him and his decisions but also is looking after herself and her son. You cannot be seen as the "weaker" of the two options. That is not attractive. BUT, if you let him know that you want the marriage to work but he has to accept some boundaries, it is honest, it is strong, and it is a defined relationship. If he sees that he can go in and out as he pleases and just say "I love you" or "I missed you" or "Let's cuddle" and you accept, then he doesn't have a decision to make. That comes from experience. My wife bent over backwards to keep me at home and it didn't work. But when she said, "OK, that's enough. Move out. I want to work on this but you are hurting me too bad to be around you all the time. And here's what I expect out of someone who really does love me..." - that made an impact. When she started talkin attorneys, child visitation, etc..., that really opened my eyes and I thought maybe I should give NC a try. After NC for a day, I could already tell a difference in how I saw her. After a couple of days, I really could tell a difference.

What I am saying is, be strong. Don't listen to him because he is a liar. A BIG FAT LIAR (I am yelling). He talks foggy talk. Don't tell him what to do. Just tell him what you need. He will see that a decision has to be made soon. And that is what you want him to see...a decision. He can't straddle the fence forever.

I am going to post this without proofing. I know it is coming off as rambling but I have to go to church. I will recheck it tonight.

I was dead serious that if he wants someone that will listen to all his feelings and understand, that is me. I said the same stuff and pulled the EXACT same stunts. All because I was getting marital advice from the OW. My e-mail is in a previous post. I won't tell anyone that I talked with him. I really think it will do him some good to talk to a FWH just like him. I won't post anything we talk about. I just think my situation would have gone a little easier if someone could have said "Those feelings seem real but they aren't. I know because I have been there. It's OK to leave the OW. She'll make it and she will eventually leave you alone. You need to focus on your wife and son." I know my recovery and turnaround would have been tons quicker.

Keep praying,
SNT

SNT,

Thank you so much... It really does help to get a point of view from an FWH.

Ark and MiMi,

Thank You.. Yes I believe she is a word that sounds like bore. Thank you for helping me to see clearer as I believe I am in some fog myself


I really wanted to call the Harleys but I had to do it when H is not around. Friday I have off work and he doesn't so maybe I can get an appt for then.

Tonight I found pictures of OW and H together in canada. I took them for I may need them for proof later. It put a knife in me meeting his needs tonight. He does not know I have them but I do not even want to be around him.

I am not feeling as good about myself as I did before because she does not look as ugly in the pictures as I had hoped her to. She is getting liposuction this month and then will look really good.... Then I am remembering how ever since he has been with her my small breast size has became an issue for him.... this is really hurting me tonight.

At this point I am having a hard time remembering his good traits... Is this normal?

Yes I do need to earn his respect. I don't know how to do this without love bustng. Without threatening to kick him out or leave how do I get him to agree to NC? He continues to contact her and lie about it after 3 times of telling me he was calling it off. I tell myself to hang in there for 3 more weeks to see if she really goes to Panama. I don't really think she is going.

Ok

I am pc anywhere to his computer at work and accessed his email I am shaking now from what I have found.

What did you find?

Ohh plans for a cruise together, plans to scuba dive in Panama, talk about how good the SA was this morning and last Thursday when they went out. Talk about them going to the mall together. She talked about how when he told her he was in love with her it made her sooo happy. Basically it confirmed everything I thought.

OOpps I went to print one of the emails and didn't realize it was printing to his office printer and not my house printer. OOpps.... I hope he has his own personal printer, I don't think so though ha ha ha ha.

What do you know he has a late meeting tomarrow night. Wait a minuite last Thursday he had a dinner, this Thursday a late meeting.

I have only been in plan A since really Sept 03 so about 2 mos. He has seen changes but I don't think he is convinced they are long term. What do you think to early to go dark?

SNT how long did your wife try to make it work before she made you leave?

Can I ask you a question? What about your Wayward's behavior since this all came to light needed "confirming" by these emails?

I think truthfully your Wayward Husband has been extremely honest and forthright (with his ACTIONS mind you) regarding his opinion of you and how much (or little in this case ) he respects you. His view and his itentions of your marriage and his affair have been very transparent.

I don't have any advice on the Plan A or B's or going "dark", but if I were you I sure as ****** would not let that man near my body with all of the potential "organisms" that he is carrying that can give you things like "lesions" "sores" "Crusting wounds" "chancre".....all nice and tasty huh....? Consider yourself warned.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add: On review I do come off as harsh, but a little "HARSHNESS" may perhaps save you a lifetime of pain and embarassment and shame (if you get an STD).

Your WH is a wayward....so I can only assume that you know the risks. NOONE says that you can't have affection with him, but Sex at this stage is 100% NOT EVEN DEBATABLE.

Trying -

Crap. So sorry about what you found. I remember how hurt I was when I found letters and handwritten notes from WH to OW. It's a feeling in your stomach that is indescribable. Something I had never felt before.

As far as Plan B is concerned, I think you have been making some ground with WH. I know it doesn't seem like a lot but like Mimi has said - your WH will not acknowledge right now the things you are doing in Plan A. However, when you go into Plan B these things will stay in his memory.

How do you feel?? Do you feel like your lovebank is getting empty? You go into Plan B to protect the love that you have for WH.

Kim

MAN! AOL just kicked me off and I lost my entire response. OOOOOOOOO...I hate when that happens. I will try to re-type it.

My A (either as EA or PA) had gone for over a year. My wife says she suspected it for about that long but didn't do any digging for fear of losing me or for fear of what she might find or whatever. Anyway, in July, she found her "first" evidence...concert ticket receipt. When she confronted me on it, she asked me to move out. I told her I would except I would come home after work, see the kids, eat dinner with kids, help kids with homework, bathe the kids, and put them to bed. After the kids were asleep, I would leave. She agreed. That was OK but kids still asked questions about where I was in the morning and she was feeling more and more uncomfortable having to see me and be "polite" to me. So, when she found the next big evidence - cell phone records - she said that we would have to start scheduling my visits with the kids so she could minimize the amount of time she would see me. When I came clean with her, that was better. However, I still was not in total NC with OW and when she found that out, she told me that she had no choice but to divorce me. That was in mid October I guess.

What is your timeframe? When did the A start? When did you first suspect? When did the EA start or when do you think it started? When the PA start or when did you think it started? When did you find evidence supporting either one? When did you confront him on it for the first time? Just curious.

SNT

I don't mean to thread jack but I just wanted to comment to SNT how brave you are and what a wonderful job you are doing in helping everyone understand the feeling of a WH.

I wish my WH could see what you have and come home. But he is in "LOVE".

Your wife is a lucky woman, I just wish I had the chance she is to try and save her marriage. God Bless you SNT and your wife. I hope things all work out for you....

Trying... I hope things work out for you as well.... God Bless you....

Hurting

You need to write your plan B letter soon and proceed to follow through with it ..

there are WS and OP in affairs...still lost in their fantasys...still carrying on.....holding on to a belief of what they have is a good thing...and the pain this brings to their spouses and children is yes a trajedy but it is out of and not of their control...

are they right in believing that...ofcourse not...but they believe it.....


and then there are people in affairs who are using the affair as a nuclear weapon and the affair itself has NOTHING to do with feelings of "love, respect, tenderness and compassion for one another and for those caught in their sick twisted wake..

woe be to the WS who can not see the pain they inflict...

but greater woe be to the WS who USES their affair and allows their OP to inflict direct pain and confrontation on to the BS....

and greater is the need for complete removal from this chaos..

what I am saying is that some people in a affair in their warped thinking really are not trying to hurt their spouse..

and others every so often wield their affair like a weapon...
and they are dangerous....

the fact that your husband and OP use their own so called magical affair as a weapon speaks volumes of their own belief in it being any thing worthy of respect for they themselves are the first in line to disrespect it...

but when their affairs focus and makeup becomes a bonding experience of them against the spouse it is in my opinion time to get the heck out of dodge...because of the insidious evil they are perpetuating and it's effects on you...the BS

It is my opinion that you go to plan B..
It is my opinion that this affair is doomed based on their own actions that they themselves on one hand would like to claim that they share an intimacy like no other..then tolerate one of the partners turning to another person on this earth and using their own intimacy as a weapon to hurt them....speaks volumes of the lack of anything real...

when you share true real love..it is never a weapon...

they are doomed
but they are also lost....right now.........

if you are going to call the Harleys do so ASAP if it is tomorrow...I pray you can talk to them...but use this time to write your plan B letter...and really look at how you are going to make this work..

these two need total seperation from their game of being able to focus on you and your response to their cruelity...
and need to start staring each other in the eyes...and begin to realize how very little is likable about them right now.......

ARK

When will you be financially and emotionally ready t/d plan B? You need to get out of A and into B, ASAP.

Change your cell so the OW can't call you. She is gloatinga nd psycho. Remove yourself from their drama but secure your financial future.

Make your moves decisive and swiftly.

JMHO,
L.

My opinion is for you to scrape up whatever money you can, wherever you can get it, and schedule an appointment with Steve Harley ASAP.

I think that he is the one who can best answer this question for you.

I'm not so sure that he would recommend PLAN B UNLESS you feel that YOU are at the point of losing your love for him..

PLAN B is certainly likely to be necessary in your situation. IMHO, I'm not so sure that the time is now...

I agree with ARK in the view that this A certainly will end and your WH knows this. He certainly is mainly having his FUN with her.

What has not been taken into account is that this is an ADDICTION, just like a COCAINE ADDICTION...ADDICTS like your WH will do anything necessary to maintain their FIX...
ANYTHING...

YUK...I KNOW HOW DISGUSTING AND PAINFUL THIS IS....

However, it is the REALITY of this TRAGEDY for YOU...FOR US...

mimi addictions explain the need for contact...

it does not explain the need for evilness and while I realize I am splitting hairs in the fact the ALL acts of the affair are toxic and disrepectful...

there a the majority of WS that still seperate and protect their spouses from their OP...and then there are those that sic them on to their spouse...which in my opinion is a whole new ball-game...and not under the realm of addiction...because the truth is there are no BOUNDARIES prohibiting contact.....they have and practice free range..so the fact they are attacking under such freedom in my OPINION ups the ante of what one is really truly dealing with...........
using themselves as weapons to inflict damage..
it is sick and twisted............

there are those affair partners that cross lines that need/ require instant accountability for the SAKE of the BS or eventually it just becomes a BS consent for exposure to gross abuse.................

ARK

I'm not sure how us discussing this will be helpful to Trying. I hope she will call Steve Harley...

BUT...



It does. Addicts/infidels work on justification and rationalization for continuing obtaining their HIGH..That's where the EVILNESS comes in...

To explain this better, I will use my FWH as an example...

He becomes addicted to the OW...He can't stop seeing her...He has to rationalize this to himself in order to continue behaviors that are in direct contrast to his moral value system...The irrational beliefs may have included there is no God..my wife is evil and deserves this..my wife is the one that is evil not me...

It does not matter what the beliefs are as I was making these thoughts up here...WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE ADDICT HAS TO COME UP WITH IRRATIONAL BELIEFS TO JUSTIFY CONTINUATION OF THEIR ADDICTION...


Ark,

I am agreeing more than disagreeing with you...

I'm saying to not consider any infidels as being MORE SICK AND TWISTED THAN ANY OTHER.... I don't think it's OK to make such judgments..untested..

I think it's OK to assume that most if not all WSes are SICK, HAVE TWISTED BELIEFS, AND ARE TEMPORARILY INSANE....

Some may LOOK healthier but IMHO (an opinion, I would acknowledge) they are not....

Maybe this has to do with not wanting to see my FWH as not being all that bad. but he WAS AWFUL...had lost all sense of human decency and was evil to me...hated me...

NOW, OUT OF THE FOG, AWAY FROM THE OW, FREE OF HIS ADDICTION, HE IS DEFINITELY HIMSELF AGAIN AND IN LOVE WITH ME...

So my opinion here, I acknowledge, is based on my own personal experiences with this..

Others' experiences may be different....

What about losing her love for herself!?!?

At what point does the BS cross over from Plan A to Plan CA??

Please call Dr. Harley!! I don't see how anyone could stay in this cesspool of disrespect and betrayal and stay centered WITHOUT the direct help of a professional.

I am lighting a candle for you....prayers of peace and courage to you.