I am sorry for the things I did - and did not do - that allowed you to fall into the arms of another woman.

oh no no no no no....that is not what happened...while there may some contribution to a marital environment that left him feeling bad or lonely.........NOTHING of yours allowed him to fall in to the arms of another woman..

never ever speak those words to him.......
like you phrased them in his letter...ever...

I look forward to a future where the circumstances that made it easier for you to turn away are gone forever.

I look forward to a future where I can be for you and you can be for me.........

I have told you I love you and am ready to forgive you,

don't promise forgiveness to someone who is not remorseful...too much for you to commit to now...

I would make the next paragraph about hope...that you have and continue to examine yourself and make and work on changes that serve both you and him and the family well....

I would talk about longing to share the childrens triumphs and sorrows together...and to be a home in which all have a safe place to gather......etc...

These challenges drain my love for you every day, and make it difficult for me to forgive you.

don't put things that make him defensive...in a line above you said you forgave him...now it's different here...

know that you are also hurting and I would give anything to help ease your pain.

don't say give anything....say I would love to help you ease that burdon.....

here are lines in your letter which are good..they just need moved around....


##More than anything and work together for a better marriage

##Pom, my wish for us is a new and better relationship, a marriage that makes us both happy as it once did. My willingness to remain as your wife despite these hard times is part of a promise I made to you 10 years ago, and I do still believe in us.

I realise that I must get on with my own life,

don't say you are getting on with your life he will use that one line against you...see you said you were moving on without me...what you are doing is removing yourself from the chaos...

also you need a mediator...not his job to find someone to communicate with you...why would he bother...that's your job .....

rewrite...

first paragraph..message of love.
second a bit about your changes
third....you need to not be part of a triangle and chaos...
forth conditions and you wish for a family restored ...

search for travelenmans plan B letter his was one of the best...full of hope ..but short sweet and to the point


also is not a condition of return something about the alcohol issues...

ARK

I feel like it will be a short plan B, because he will come back pretty quick and say he is willing to quit talking to her and to be part of the family.

oh no plan b is not over when they SAY no contact..plan B is over when there is a long long time period of consistant actions....

he needs to be addressing the alcohol issues...as do you....

little words matter not here..
all actions

ARK

getting, talk is cheap with a WS and even cheaper with an alcoholic. Like ark said, words don't matter, only actions.

ROFLMAO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would insist that all communication stops, then I would take it from there and consider the above proposal. If he is married to you and he says he's "in" the marriage and this "affair" is over, then he needs to break off all communication IMO. Also, if at all possible, I stress that he should leave that job so he never sees her again; move, lower your cost of living for awhile ... do what it takes.

IMO this affair is still going on. Whether they are having sex or not. Emotional affairs can be even more dangerous. He's either in the marriage or he's not. And if he says he is, he needs to prove it and rebuild the trust. IMO, there should be no friendships with the opposite sex (as opposed to being cordial in a superficial manner only if/when necessary and appropriate). Married couples should behave like married couples and show the world, without question, that they are partners and that nothing and nobody can come into their marriage and effect it, in ANY form. That also includes extended family, IMO.

It's late, so just a quick one before I get some sleep.

Ark, I have adjusted that letter, and will look at all the changes you suggested in detail. Will post the new improved version soon.

A little confused about plan B. How do I assess consistant actions if I am not in contact with him? If he says he has broken contact, how do I know that if he is living somewhere else?

2, there are many adjustments we could make for him to take a lower paying job. Convincing him is the only difficult part, but I have decided that I don't want him while his work keeps him away for long periods. As for female friends, he has always had many, from the time I met him. I don't think I could ask him to change that as I accepted it when I married him. I know all his old friends, and have never had an issue with any of them, but I do have issues with the new 'secret' friends. These are women that he contacts by txt up to 80 times per day, including picture messages. It is usually one at a time that he is talking to, and for a few months, then on to the next. I have caught him meeting one secretly a few times, and lying about each of them in one way or another. Oh, and having sex with one of them. He is still in touch with all except the first, which ended very suddenly about two years ago.

To make me feel secure, he would have to break contact with all of them and explain a good deal about each relationship, especially why he lied about them.
He would also have to tell me if he so much as got a phone number of another woman. Just wish it made some sense.

Thanks again, more tomorrow

Change is inevitable and necessary in life, and in every marriage. You say that you accepted these behaviors when you married him, what was the basis of that? Was that with the acknowledgement that there was potential for cheating on his part? I think not or you wouldn't be here. It sounds like it was a mistake to make such an agreement, upon reflection now, don't you think? You have nothing to feel guilty about, you are human and made a simple mistake, which you did by accident (which is why accidents are not called "on purposes.")

To make you feel secure, under the circumstances, due to the changes in his behavior, I don't feel your proposal is asking too much at all. IMO, that should have been a given when you married anyway, it's just plain wrong. Married couples need to behave like married couples IMO, otherwise, others DO SEE that "the door is open," so to speak. It's not worth it to live in fear. And until you both close that door and lock it, a life of fear is what you'll have. Not worth it IMO.

Also, IMO, it is the responsibility of both people in the relationship to address the needs for trust, safety, and security on every level. "Outsiders" should never be "let in" at the expense of the other spouse. Again, my opinion, based on experience. We have choices every day. You made that choice in the past but that does not mean you have lost your ability to choose and adapt to the present.

Tell him to contact you when he has ended all contact with ALL WOMEN, other than his mother and sisters. Have him send the OW a no contact letter. Have him open up his life to you, ie: give you all passwords, spyware reports from his computer, constant contact during the day. You can then see him - not live with him - for awhile so he can demonstrate he is being truthful.

But you don't want to let him come back until he has PROVEN that he has a) stopped drinking and b) ended contact with all other women.

What he will probably do is lie to you initially and tell you that he has ended contact. Just don't take him back until he has done all the above things and you BELIEVE him.

I am still working on the letter, almost finished. I have everything in place, but now am having second thoughts.

He has refrained from drinking for three visits now, has asked me to go out this weekend, and has been calling and paying me attention. These are things I have been asking him to do, and feel like I can't plan B him while he is being so nice. He does keep his phone out of sight, sound off, and all records of messages cleared. He does still talk heaps with women. Discussion about A is still off limits. I asked if he had spoken to OW, he said "no, haven't spoken to her" then changed the subject. I know that the call lists on his work phone had her as the last two calls in and two calls out, not sure of the dates, but he makes lots of calls, so probably the previous day.

I still don't feel satisfied that he is being open, but wondering if it is just too hard for him right now and maybe he will do it if I just leave him alone. Is plan B the right thing to do???

Okay, I read only the first post. In answer to your question, what to do when others ask (in reference to exposure) ... my first reply was:

"Why do you ask?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

BTW ... that has worked in a lot of sticky situations! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just my personality though, direct and to the point. I found it to be a very effective way to rid myself of the ones that just "wanted the beef" to "share it freely" when they, themselves, may have been doing the same ... one side or the other. I guess the word I'm looking for is gossip? And I've learned that a lot of people can really twist and distort gossip to suit their behavior ... even if it's totally unacceptable. But I guess the gossip and the justification is both one and the same, is it not? LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

In situations such as these, I see no problem with "questioning the motive" when someone asks. Heck, if they're BOLD enough to ask (given it's typically none of their business, those who ask), I can certainly be BOLD enough to answer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

2T, that might be a good way to handle it. The reason I started saying 'yes' was my feeble attempt at exposure. Pity I didn't find this site until later or there may have been an onslaught of 'letters from OW' turning up at company fax machines.

I think my post above about whether to go to plan B now should be whether to go to plan B or plan D. I spoke to a friend today and explained the plan B thing. she said "seriously, even if he does all those things, can you really take him back after all the lies". She thinks that plan B would just be stringing him along with the promise of a marriage, just so I could see him be repentant. Maybe I wouldn't have him back anyway and that it would be dishonest to let him think I would if he cuts the 'mattress strings'.

Do I need to know now if I would ever have him back, or can I go to plan B without being sure I want him?

You ask questions that are hard to answer. This is very "couples individual" IMHO.

I have a Mentor. I was instructed:

If you don't know the answer right now, then do nothing. The answer(s) will come.

So I suppose my advice is: The same. And ... you are following very good guidelines to help you make a decision as far as preserving and/or terminating your marriage. Remain flexible. See what happens next. Please don't base any decision solely on your emotions/feelings. If the substance abuse issues are treated, I feel like you have a GREAT chance to repair the marriage and will most probably succeed as long as there is consistency on both parts.

Substance abuse issues ... OH NO, NOT THAT!! Been there, done that too! First ... you will see your spouse change; it could be awhile, but I suspect you will see a full return on your "marital investments" if your spouse stays true to recovery. However, now we're getting into another "broad spectrum" that everyone can/may/will chime in on. The person will change ... then you will see the "true" nature of the relationship evolve.

Perhaps it's healthy to lean on your friend for support if the friend is trustworthy, honest, and most of all ... NEUTRAL! As a matter-of-fact, use care with friends .... they can actually become another MAJOR marital "issue" that must be overcome. I can't help but wonder about how your spouse feels about all this "sharing" with your friend, given my feeling that you share things with the friend that you may not share with your spouse?

Be choosy about the company you keep! Realize that substance abuse problems/issues take time, on both parts. Then, once your spouse is actually "present" (no substance) you can get to the real deal! Hang in there!

Prayers!!

getting, if you don't want to do Plan B, then don't do it. But using Plan A on an alcoholic is a futile waste of time. Plan A is useless with an alcoholic. He will just use it as an opportunity to exploit you and play you for a while. And yes, he is playing you. He has you right where he wants you while he carries on his adulterous lifestyle. He really has no reason to change. What he wants is for you to "leave him alone" so he can continue doing what he has been doing unimpeded. If he has to play nice for a couple of days to get you off his back, that is what he will do.

And you may not want to continue this marriage. I can certainly understand that. But there is nothing that would prepare you better for that eventuality than Plan B. It would allow you to detach so you could make that decision with a sound, clear mind.

I agree. If he is not addressing the substance abuse issues, your efforts are futile! Luckily, my husband took recovery seriously. Al-Anon can help you with that, the plans in this forum are only part of the spectrum of recovery in such a case. I would suggest that you first address the substance abuse. With that going on, no plan will work. Your spouse is not thinking rationally at this time.

Melody, you are right, he is playing me. Read 'unsure' as 'afraid of the unknown'. I decided to do it. I wrote a new letter, which follows Ark's guidelines. It has been a stressful couple of days, and meantime, he calls every night being as nice as possible. I wrote the letter and sent it in one day, then put everything into place, including some financial arrangements. Then I sent him a txt to tell him what I had done. He asked if he is what I want. I said 'I need time to clear my head, wait for the letter' He said 'just when Ithought things were going well, at least let me know what is happening' I said 'OK'. He said 'what did you do with our savings' I told him where they were and that we could still get to them if we both signed a form. Sort of a forced policy of joint agreement. He said why don't you just sell everything and split what's left' I said 'wait for the letter'. He said 'have you found someone else'

Thats right, he said 'have you found someone else'. I nearly fell over. I said 'no'.

No more calls. I don't know how he is reacting, He will get the letter today. So far, he is not angry, which was my biggest fear. I fully expect a visit on the weekend as he has two days off. I don't know how to react to it. he will ask the kids to get the door, or come around the back and see them outside. I can't tell them not to let him in, so not sure what to do. I am afraid of being drawn into a discussion, or more likely, of being convinced that it is all in my head and that I am being silly. I don't want to change my mind now.

2T, I just don't know about the alcohol. My letter said that he had to show me that it would not be a problem for me anymore. That meant talking to his doctor about it and making a plan, and showing me what it is. I am just not sure yet about the giving up altogether or not. According the Alanon definition, he may not actually be an 'alcoholic', but just abusing. They say that this type of person may be able to drink again safely. It is part of our culture, and not sure if it would be possible to get him off it altogether. It's a compromise I may or may not make, but not sure right now. I will decide on that later, but for now, at least, he has to stop. I have told him that I will not put up with his drinking around me, and that if he doesn't do something about it I will. He knows what that means, strong action that I don't want to take, but I am prepared to do it. That means that if he comes back to me later, the same rule applies. One drunken night and he will be out of the house (legally enforced). By Harley's definition, he is an alcoholic, so have to treat it as a condition of his return. He is in complete denial, so Alanon is not an option for him. He does not believe in help or advice or groups.

Does anyone have any ideas about whether affairs are hereditary. Both his father, his grandfather fooled around on their wives. His grandfather fathered his niece's child. Both ended up divorced. What chance do I have. Did I mention that his grandmother (on the other side) also indulged in a bit of extramarital foolery.

Oh well, that's enough rambling, feeling a bit better after having executed plan B. Better than worrying about it. Will let you all know how it goes.

If he comes to the house, meet him at the door and ask him if he would please respect your request for no contact and not come back until he has met the conditions in your letter. Politely shut the door.

I would explain to the kids that you are not seeing their dad right now and that he will have to pick them up for their visitations. Did you send him a visitation schedule or make any plans for that?

And remember to not answer his calls or texts after he gets the letter. Good job!

I haven't been sure what to tell the kids until I see if he comes or not. They wont have me sending him away as they only see him once a week and he always has presents. I will think about the best way to do that. Thanks for the idea. I didn't give him a visitation schedule because he insists that he must fit around his job. I have asked him to let me know what he wants in terms of time with the kids. If he doesn't give me set regular times, I will come up with my own and lodge it at the court. Or I will not let him see them at all until he commits to a time.

I will take it as it comes for a week or two, then tighten the loopholes. I will install an answering machine tonight to screen calls. Might investigate getting caller ID on my phone.

Here's hoping for a stress free weekend.

Thanks for your support.

getting, if he is a typical WS, he will go out of his way to test you and get you to break contact so I would have a plan in place and be prepared. He will want to keep things status quo and often they do or say anything to avoid having to change. If you let him get you to break contact, you lose credibility and as a result, lose any leverage you have. So please carefully consider a better way to hook him up with the children than letting him barge in as usual. Lest he will have no reason to take you seriously.

Not sure what sort of plan I could have. I asked him for times he wants to see the kids. I can be out when he picks them up, I could send him a text to tell him we are at a park or somewhere that he can collect them from. I could drop them off outside his van and leave. The hard part will come if he drops them off or I pick them up. I expect he wont have them ready, or he will say 'we are at the beach, meet us there', and the kids will be still in the water or something like that. If he drops them off, he might come inside. I will have to be ready to ask him to respect my wishes and leave. He can be very persuasive, and I am not good at standing my ground, but I am fairly determined right now. If he really insists, though, there is nothing I can do without a court order. I don't want to get into an argument over him not leaving, I don't want to just disappear into another room until he goes either or he will just make himself at home. What do you think would be the best way to handle it?


It's like a game of chess, trying to guess ahead what his move will be.

Keep the good ideas coming.

He got my letter. Just got text. Says he can't live with these rules I impose on him. Wants to enjoy life not have to answer to someone. Says the problem is not other people but us - that we don't agree on anything. I think that was his way of saying the plan B conditions are unreasonable. Just got another one. Not fair of me to put savings away in a 'two to sign' place. And another. 'Not happy'.

I am worried now because he is angry.

Of course he will be angry; he is supposed to be. He doesn't like losing control of the situation. He is used to having his cake and eating it too. He doesn't like that you are standing up for yourself. That is ok. He won't be motivated to change unless you give him reason to change.

Don't respond to anything he says. Like I said earlier, he will do his best to see if you are serious and will test your will. He will rant and rave and make threats. Just don't respond and he will get the message.

Like I said before, figure out a visitation schedule and tell him you will send the kids out to the car and he can send them in the house when he returns. If he comes to the house, refer him to your Plan B letter and politely shut the door. If he doesn't respect that, I would change the locks. If he asks you to pick them up at the beach or something, don't respond. You are in Plan B now.


I know this is all hindsight, but I sort of wish we had had this discussion before you went into Plan B. But since you already sent the letter you will have to compensate the best you can without messing up your Plan B.