Mimi
That is exactly hiw I feel being the second choice. Thats why I decided to go into plan b. I haven't given him the letter yet but will as soon as I see him. It was a very hard decision for me but I guess my mind and heart are in sinc now and I am ready.

This cannot continue like it is. Either he will get a fan and blow the fog away or I will us a fog horn on him.lol

I have been thinking Plan B may work on cake eaters very well.. but as for Plan A or Plan B with an extreme conflict avoider like my WH.. who basically grabbed the opportunity to walk out the door and then Plan B me as well as I had plan B-ed him, it doesn't really work any difference from what I can see. With no kids, you just walk your own paths separately. No contact, no phone calls, no whining, no fence-sitting. Just silence. Quite clear that this type of WS wants you out of their lives.

Good thing is that there's no drama either. It seems to just make things easier for both parties to "move on with their own lives".

~A

Mimi-

When you were Plan A'ing your H, did you also detach somewhat?

When did you tell him you were setting him free--during Plan A or B?

This is what I am strugling with--how can you meet ENs at the same time seeming as though life will go on with/without WS? If you are non-chalant and independent and confident, how can you also be working on meeting ENs (for example, my WW needs Affection, yet how can I provide that while appearing as though I am detached)? I read Dobson's book and it really resonated with me.

Ashley,

I don't know the particulars of your situation but I don't agree with this that you say:



Theoretically, the BS meets the WS' primary ENs during PLAN A. Then, during PLAN B, the OP has to meet all of these needs, fails at this, and the WS misses the BS. You do not mention the significance of ENs which is an essential feature of MB theory and the MB approach. Are you saying that the conflict avoider is not getting ENs met by the OP?

I had not much of a chance to Plan A. WS avoided all contact with me, friends and family after D-Day and when he made it clear he wanted to end the marriage. He refused to communicate after he made his intentions clear about a divorce. Shoved a lawyer's contact to my face. Bunked in the study, and locked the door whenever he was home - which was like 4 am. Heads out to work at 7am. Did that for 2 weeks then moved out of the house 2 weeks later. For good.

He never turned back.
He never contacts me except when we have to discuss about legal or financial matters.
Communication only via text msgs or email. Very short. To the point. Has been like this for 7 mths.

It's almost like I've already been living as a single for 7 mths.

What I'm saying is, it's quite clear the OP is meeting many of his needs. She may or may not fail. After all, there are many pple who end up with affair marriages and stay with it. Even if they are unhappy. But who is happy all the time in any relationship? She may have met many of his needs for months, and I didn't know about it. Maybe she meets his needs better than me. Maybe he communicates way better to her than he does to me. Who am I to argue or question? Since I don't seem to know anything. He refuses to give me any chance to rebuild or discuss anything. He refuses to talk to me so I can't do anything. He has plan B-ed me as well as I have plan B-ed him.

When you have someone like my WS.. Plan B just helps fuel the A. Especially when you do not have kids anyway. You don't need to contact each other on an on-going basis.

~A

Ashley, you said:



I'm sorry to say this but without PLAN A, PLAN B can't be effective. The two go hand and hand...

I don't really think you should do PLAN B or it should be called PLAN B if there has not been a PLAN A...

You need to have the opportunity to do PLAN A...and he, for some reason, didn't give you that opportunity..

Do you feel that he was at some point "in love" with you prior to his A? I don't know your situation. Sorry..

Can you do a PLAN A through your E-mails?

I miss you, etc..

mimi, thanks yr your responses

As for plan A thru emails now. I feel is too late and feels too fake. I myself feel that the love is fading and as I am not a demonstrative or emotive person for most parts. So he'll know that if I try that kind of thing, I'm trying to control him to make him feel guilty.

I know it's not going to be effective, hence I'm not working on the marriage anymore. He has not commmunicated with me for more than half a year and both of us have been living separate lives basically from the on-start of him moving out.

in fact, we just moved to this spanking brand new apartment in Jan 2005. He seemed so happy. Now I know I was fooled. After hunting for furniture and discussing about future plans, and him showing himself ready to move out right after the D-Day on June 2005 tells me alot of things. He has and wants no future with me and has been really lying all these years.

I thought he did love me. Everyone surrounding us thought we were happy. I thought (I did feel) happy. But I guess he didn't. Maybe on hindsight (I don't know?? because this is all based on *HIS* logic - which we all know is [email]cr@p[/email] for a WS), he hasn't loved me for years. Maybe pretended to love me? He's a pathelogical liar? How do I know? I don't even know who he really is now.

His close friend was SHOCKED. Our mutual friends were angry and shocked. His mom was terribly disappointed. Even acquaintances commented that he seemed a decent/ honest man.

We are legally separated because he has messed my finances. He has taken out money frm our joint a/c without consulting me. With my last exposure, he has strengthened his legal position that I should continue to stay out of his personal affairs. This was set down in a legal letter to me.

So based on what I read from familygone020105' story with this 1st W, which seems similar.. I think WS is falling more and more in love with OP and we will continue going our sep ways. He has already changed and believe his lifestyle that we both had were not what he believed in or is his true self. He even switched religions. Told me what we both wanted and discussed for the future what was not what he actually wants. All this he didn't even talk to me about it when he had so many chances. And I'm not the type to be dramatic or nasty. I always believed we could put things on the table and discuss them. But I guess he didn't trust me enough for even the simple basic things (like not paying or able to pay my cr card bills when he was supposed to do so).

I am getting myself ready to D next year.. once I'm able to sell the apt and put my finances in order. That is because he has created heavy damages on my finances as well as joint finances and I'm still finding difficulty getting a job. I'm continuing to concentrate on getting my finances in the black and then also moving on. My parents depend on my financial support so I have to be practical and pare down our standard of living considerably.

If you want to know more and bother to read, I have two threads..
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

~A

i found this on Mimi's old thread:

I just wanted to share what I have learned in hopes that this may help some of you. People here have been so helpful to me that I want to give back some of what I have received.

These are my suggestions:

DO A GREAT PLAN A: Steve H. called it MY PLAN. I tried to figure out what ENs that I was not addressing in my marriage. I worked on these problems. Making these changes was mainly good for me as a person but it also has been an essential ingredient in my marriage today. These changes have become a part of me so that now that my H is back it is not forced. It is natural for me to go to the gym, watch what I eat, cook dinner for the family, consider his point of view, give him attention, etc. These are some of the things that I was not doing prior to D-Day. Of course, I am not perfect. The fact that I am doing enough of these things compensates for my weak points. What I have not been able to accomplish continues to be our primary marital problems. The point is WORK ON YOUR PLAN.

ACCEPT THAT YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED TO GO TO PLAN B: Folks on here told me this but I did not want to believe it. For my H, the A was too addictive for PLAN A to be enough. But true to the Harley text, he has told me PLAN A caused him to think about me a lot while he was with her. Even if he did not want to, he remembered the me that I was during my PLAN A.

THE MORE TIME WS SPENDS WITH THE OP, THE BETTER: This is what I'm repeatedly hearing from FWS. Prior to PLAN B, they mainly met on the the weekends, maintaining the fantasy. When I was out of the picture, he really got to know her. Luckily in my case, she seems to be a nutty, alcoholic. He can't find too many good things to say about her as a real person. She was lots of fun but day-to-day she was not able to do the job of wifey that he needs to make it. Add my SF, physical attractiveness, domestic stuff during PLAN A, he's in love with me again. She's not meeting any needs. He's left addicted to her, hoping and wishing for the drug to take effect again. Let me know if I'm not making this clear because it is an important point.

WS DOES NEED A ROAD MAP BACK HOME (as suggested by Espoir and MM): This is the transition piece that we have been talking about in my thread towards the end of the A. My WS stated that he wanted to end the A, come home months ago but needed to feel that there was a way out FOR HIM . If there was not a way out, he thinks he would have given up and just stayed in his mess. I would imagine that the WAY OUT will look different for different people. For him, he wanted a nice place to stay. A refuge continues to be important to him. Also, he is very proudful and needed to be sure that he would not be humiliated by me, my family or the kids. This all can be spelled out specifically in one or more PB letters. I wrote a couple of letters, I think. My FWS referred back to those. Also, I opened up lines of communication in the end regarding my terms for reconciliation.

HANGING IN THERE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON: Regardless of the outcome of this for me, I am happier with myself. It's unbelievable to me that I am saying this. I am a stronger, more self-confident person. So even if my H goes back to the OW, God forbid, I now will not take it as a rejection of me. I know that I did everything I could possibly do to save my marriage. Now it's on him. If he leaves, it will be his loss. He knows this about me now and has grown to respect me.

These are my thoughts for now. Hope this helps somebody.

Bumping for River Tam for Thoughts on Plan B...

bump

WOW!!! What an amazing thread!

Thanks so much Mimi, and Shugah too (I was unaware of your story until now), and everyone else who's contributed. It's given me a LOT of insight and info, and has been a powerhouse of motivation and hope.

I am CERTAIN that Plan B is the only way for me. One way or another, whether my marriage survives or not, I will succeed, and I'm committed to staying dark. Forever, if need be, at the expense of any relationship other than a marriage. (When WH moved out and he was still behaving decently, he said we would always be friends. Within a few weeks he was VILE and I have no idea what kind of "friend" he had in mind to want to be. As my BIL, who is a pastor, says: There is no such thing as remaining friends when a couple splits up. If there was true friendship, you wouldn't split up.)

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have heaps of questions about this subject pop into my head so I've bookmarked the thread!

OK...

I have a couple of questions, although they're not really questions. They're concerns.

The toughest thing for me about Plan B is the fact that it's achieved the "preserve the remaining love you feel for the WS" thing too well: I miss my H like crazy, and can't seem to get past this, even though my life is full in every desirable way. It makes me sad. Any hints on handling this?

The next thing is, I'm worried that my Plan A wasn't perfect. That is to say, it wasn't a strict Plan A b/c I didn't know about Plan A and Plan B, and WH moved out just a few days after our our "fight", but I went with instinct and took the high road. After I saw that pleading, appealing to common sense, etc., didn't work and he told me they made him feel "manipulated", I stopped. I also stopped all LBs immediately, was warm, friendly, light and stopped discussing the R. But back in November something snapped within me and I brought up our R. This led, if not to LBing, but fairly intense convos that got him very worked up and defensive; I told him some home truths which were NOT pleasant; and I wrote him a letter (8 pages!) that was meant to bring me closure b/c I was ready to give up at that stage. I know that he found the letter extremely hurtful. I worry that my actions in November cancelled out my exemplary behavior during the Plan A phase. Mimi, I know you say to do a great Plan A, but what if my A just wasn't good enough?

Finally, it's occurred to me that this might be an "exit affair". Maybe WH was ready to go after all, and stopped loving me long ago, and since we always said that having an affair would be the point of no return for either of us, maybe he's making SURE that there is no return. He exposed himself and proceeded to parade her around town straight away. This is probably what worries me the most. Maybe I'm hanging on when there's nothing to hold on for.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

*bump*

Mimi's not around?

*bump* again...

RT:

I'm around but I've been SUPER BUSY this week at work...

I promise to get back with you SOON...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No worries! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that, just like the WS has to go through WITHDRAWAL from the OW, the BS has to go through WITHDRAWAL from the WS. I'm not that familiar with your situation, RT. However, it seems like you are having a lot of contact, although indirectly, with your WH. So, you are unable to complete the WITHDRAWAL process from him which could take 3 months of NO CONTACT. I didn't really get over missing my H until that amount of time had gone by and by then we were reconciling....



Well, of course, there's no PERFECT Plan A... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, I do think a good PLAN A is essential. RT, you be the judge. Do you think it was awful enough for you to go back into PLAN A? Along with PLAN A, a COMPLETELY DARK PLAN B is also ESSENTIAL. The WS needs to miss you during PLAN B...So given the contact you are having, sliding back into PLAN A for awhile might not be difficult. I'm just throwing this out based on what you are saying in this post. I don't want to confuse you or mess things up for you. This may be a controversial suggestion, I know. Why did you decide that you needed to go into PLAN B at the time that you did?



I very, very much doubt all of this....IMO, AN AFFAIR IS AN AFFAIR...Any of them can be an EXIT AFFAIR if the BS gives up and hands the WS over to the OP. I believe in FIGHTING FOR WHAT'S RIGHTFULLY YOURS...despite the fact that the WS maybe ATTEMPTING to EXIT the R..I read that EXIT AFFAIR literature before finding MB and dismissed it right away. I'm thankful that I did...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

River Tam this could have been me saying the exact same things. In fact I believe I did. So i know exactlly how you feel. Like I said before our stories remind me so much of each others. Only difference is my WH has filed the divorce.

But I still in my heart don't believe its over yet. Yup we may get divorced but I now in time this A will end. The cracks are already there but not big enough yet for H to find his way out. I am just sitting back and letting time do its job and continue to live my life. Things will get better, they do.... I still miss my H very much just like you but I am surviving and doing just fine....

Take Care of yourself and let WH wallow in his own mess. In the meantime you live and be happy.....


Hurting

Thanks, Hurting. I appreciate that.

Mimi,


Three months... OK! That makes me feel a lot better because someone said three weeks and I was feeling nowhere near better!

I haven't had much contact with WH at all. It probably seems that way because I have posted about the last two emails we sent each other. But other than that, there's barely anything there, and even what's there is strictly about kids and finances.


It's good to hear that there's no "perfect" Plan A! But no, I cannot go back to Plan A. It's not that it "didn't work". It's that it basically became unbearable. Or rather, he became unbearable. It has to do, I suspect, with the OW stepping up her efforts "backstage", so to speak. Despite some really bad behavior on his part, he began to respond to my Plan A behavior after some months, and things were going fine and we were getting along well. Then came our 20th anniversary. I wrote him a love letter, and it just unglued him. The OW (who was "just a friend" at that stage) rang him after he read it, found him in tears, and decided to come to his place to "support him through it" that day. About three weeks later, WHAM! He was behaving the worst he has ever behaved. Just horrible, horrible, abusive behavior out of the blue, for no reason. What I believe happened is that in those three weeks the OW stepped up her efforts because she realized he still had feelings for me, and things got physical; his guilt kicked in and the horrible behavior began. It was ghastly, Mimi. It was destroying my love for him. And eroding my self-respect. There was no way I could stay in touch after what he did leading up to Christmas. So I honestly think Plan B is the way to go. At the VERY LEAST, I know that his A with this woman makes him a not very nice person, one I don't like, and if I were to meet him for the first time ever right now I'd think, "Who IS this jerk?" and would want nothing to do with him. Either she, or the A, brings out the worst in him, and I just cannot be around that any more.


This is REALLY good to hear. I read the stuff about exit affairs but couldn't work out how, if at all, it would apply to me and so many of us here, given that so many Ss say that the marriage is over when they take up with the OP. In my case, when I asked WH why he thought he could begin a new R before the old one was finished, he said, "Because I considered our marriage over the moment I walked out the door." Hmmm...

Anyway, thanks so much for your input. I will continue Plan B. WH appears to have lost all the respect he once had for me, and this is the last opportunity for me to demand it, in keeping my word that I will have nothing to do with him until the OW is out of his life, and in insisting he respect my wishes for NC. I HOPE he misses me. He alluded to missing me back on Christmas Eve, but words don't mean much when a WS is speaking them. It would be good if he missed me as much as I miss him, but it's unlikely because he's got this addiction/self-medication in the form of an A, and it's telling his mind and hear, "Don't go there!" I have no such thing. No addictions, no self-medication. Just pure unadulterated feeling, 24/7.

RT:

Based on your report about your sitch..feeling that you were losing your love for your WH due to his "GHASTLY" behavior..combined with him recognizing that he still has "feelings" for you..sounds like PLAN B is the BEST for you! I agree!!

Just want to make sure that you know if you already don't..YOUR WH seems to be following the STANDARD WS SCRIPT..This must be written down somewhere in a RULE BOOK for them to follow. His "behavioral pattern" sounds almost just like my H's. Positively, though, at least, your WH is maintaining his contact with your children. I think that's a GOOD SIGN that the OW probably is anxious about and may cause LBing between them.

I like it that you seem to understand the significance of gaining your WH's RESPECT. THAT IS KEY!!

You said:



SO TRUE!!

You also seem to understand the ADDICTIVE PROCESS..Maybe, you like I DID, can really SEE how your WH resembles a DRUGGY!! The look in my FWH'S when he had seen her or was about to see her was really WIERD and UNFORGETTABLE..It's a look I pray to never see again in my lifetime. Plan B protects you from all that craziness..that's for sure...

I admire your understanding of all this , RT, so early in the game. You will be able to help a lot of people on this forum if you choose to do so.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />