I think we are all agreeing to the same principle just saying it differently.


I don't agree with.This conflicts.What makes you you then?






Applying changes does mean action/choices and that is what we base our "judgments" or responses to.Reality is ever changing.

Labels belong on jars not people.

And that is all I have to say on the subject. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi {{weaver}}!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~~~~waving enthusiastically~~~~

Hey O!!!!!!!!!

At work, but just popped in and lookie who's here...you!

Can't chat though, gotta run.

Anutha day anutha dolla! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well missy,

you best be getting yourself back here and give us an update soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Miss ya! Hope you are well~

We are who we choose to be as long as we're conscious of our choices.

We all have our weaknesses and possibly we all have our addictions.

If we're not conscious of our weaknesses, we can't necessarily be who we choose to be.

WSs have a weakness for affairs. Alcoholics have a weakness for alcohol.

Overeaters have a weakness for food.

Victims have a weakness for victimhood.

We all have weaknesses, same as we have strengths. And if we keep looking at our weaknesses we can minimize their impact. If we fail to recognize them....they keep smacking us around until we choose to deal with them again.

We all have them....some weaknesses are more problematic than others.

I think the quote...

"The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

has something to do with what everyone is discussing.

If we re-write it as...

"The measure of a WS's real character is what they would do if his BS would never find out."

If the WS KNOWS he/she would never be found out, would he do it again? Of course, if the answer is "yes", then the WS is a cheater/liar. He is what he is. Now, on the other hand, if the WS has changed his feelings and the answer is "no" even though at one time it might have been "yes", he IS something else. He is no longer a liar/cheater. If the WS desires to change, his goal should be to make the answer to the first question, "no". No, he would not lie/cheat/have an affair/hurt his S if given a "free ride" (no pun intended).

That quote may be reaching but I think it's a goodie!

SNT

Quote should have been credited to Thomas Babington Macaulay. Oops.

Don't want to get sued by the Macaulay estate, LOL...

SNT

Here's another I like that has floated around MB periodically:

"Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking".Similar to what you mentioned SNT.

CSue,

I agree that we choose to be who we are and what we do but I find it particulary troublesome when certain people use the,as I see it,excuse,that they didn't know what they were doing and that it wasn't right(this can relate to any addcition or bad behavior).I am not singling you out in any way but you brought up a good point.

Unless you have some kind of organic brain disease or mental illness,etc,as adults we are aware of choices in this society.We don't live in the stone age,this is 2005.And for this post I will maintain my view for us living in this country.

Case in point:I watched a segment this morning on the Today show.This news reporter working for NBC met with several men,one at a time, who thought they were meeting a 13 year old boy at his home.See,they were duped into believing that they met a 13 year old boy in an online chat room for the intention of having sex.Of course these men were solicited by actual adults who were pretending to be 13 y.o. boys.

So,the camera shows them all happy and walking into the kitchen area only to be approached by Chris,the newsman and it's all over.At this point,the names and contacts have already been sent to the authorities but they wanted to see how far these men would go before they got busted.It was very clear.They knew exactly what they were doing and it showed on their faces the anxiety of getting caught.One was even a Rabbi who resigned the following week(puke).It was their choice to do this purely based on selfish needs I would bet.They didn't care it was a 13 YEAR OLD BOY.The didn't care it was illegal.The moral compass was indeed either broken or not there.

Now,whether or not it's a disease is not the point.Even the worst alcoholics have to want to be helped in order to stop their behavior.We don't go rounding up people like this unless it's illegal activity and adultery isn't in most states.It's a choice to give into these weaknesses or to seek help.We do have to acknowledge these areas and work on them as you said.

Again,I would venture to guess that anyone who uses/abuses and/or overuses alcohol,drugs,cigarettes,porn,adultery,etc already is aware it's a problem by doing it but chooses to use that form as a crutch,an escape,a way out of their dreary and painful lives anyway.This is what fascinates me.Why make that choice and not the right one?

People are conscious.If you look at the very definitions,it's not so much a matter of that but why the choices are made.IMO.Just discussing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O

Do we really want to accept that WHAT we DO defines WHO we ARE?

I wonder how many Christians understand that this is contrary to Christian theosophy.

This is why "fruit inspection" is an erroneous application of of Paul's description of "fruits of the Spirit".

A person indwelled by the Spirit will produce good fruits...they may also make some mistakes and errors. When they make these errors (or even get sidetracked into a rebellious period), it's wrong to assume that they are no longer WHO they were in the Spirit. I believe it is, in fact, sinful to make those kinds of judgement about an another individual because you elevate your own judgement in the place of God's.

So what defines WHO we are? It is our birth. I will always be a male, born of a specific genetic set, in a certain country, into a sinful human nature (although, I don't ascribe to "total depravity"). Jesus said we have to be born again...of the Spirit. When we are, we are then given a new nature and even a new name. WHO WE ARE IS FUNDAMENTALLY NEW!

By virtue of FREE WILL, we can CHOOSE to behave in a manner contrary to WHO we are.

I was a Christian when I had my A. That was my nature, that I chose to disregard. A non-Christian could behave EXACTLY the same way, yet we are completely different people because of our birth.

So, no, even in the midst of a lie...I am not defined by it. It is not my nature.

In fact, if I accept that it IS my nature to lie, wouldn't it be so much easier to simply accept that "that's just the way it is" and live with NOT changing it?

The very fact that there is a delta between WHO I AM and WHAT I AM DOING is what enables me to change. I am driven by the loss of integrity.

HOWEVER...I may choose to resolve that delta in one of two obvious ways...

Low

How about 'You are what you are, but you're not what you were'? Today is not yesterday. Humans have remarkable capacity for growth.

when an active WS is not getting anywhere ... sometimes I deliberately change my choice of words from the gentle "wandering spouse" to the more accurate "adulteror" or "infidel" .... if they complain ... I know they are not ready for prime time ... and I usually wish them luck and stop posting until they have better hearing. If they can't handle the WORD adulteror but don't mind doing the adultery ... it's pointless as far as I'm concerned. At least for that day.

Bramble:

I am going to say something here that I don't say to many people. When I read your posts, I sometimes wonder if I am just too "dumb" to be reading. You speak the way I wish I could speak. You say what I want to say, but just don't know how to say it.

You "got it", and I don't know what "it" is, but you most certainly have "it".

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well Mr. Sour ~ thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On the nose bramblerose!

This is of course MORE important for the WS than the BS. Acceptance of reality is the ONLY way to personal recovery for a WS.

This is not a bad thing or a good thing...it just is!

I caution any BS that has not witnessed their FWS take this step (and the subsequent personal fall out).

It takes this step to realize that an A is not due to external factors, but internal choices. A painful reality, but also very empowering...I AM WHO I AM means I AM IN CONTROL!

Aaaah....becareful there....

I wouldn't say it's more important for the WS, it's just probably applied differently.

Acceptance is the gate to recovery for both WS and BS.

As a BS, it wasn't until I accepted the reality of who-my-husband-was that I was able to make choices for myself based on reality, instead of self-willful (wishful!) thinking.

As a BS, it wasn't until I accepted the reality of who-I-am that I was able to begin healing, and seperate my husband choices from my self-esteem. Once I realized that my husband's choices were not a reflection of who I was, and that *I* was not who he said I was, and in fact that he was powerless over who I was...I began making choices that pleased myself (ie, choices I could respect myself for).

Personal recovery started for me with acceptance of both realities.

Marital recovery was not far behind ~ but if my divorce had gone through ~ I would have been just fine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I suspect that for a FWS, acceptance of self is probably the first thing that has to occur...whereas I believe acceptance of 'others' (ie a WS) is what has to happen first.

BR, very wise and very true. I think part of the reason I am still on the fence but more comfortable about a D is I am getting to that point myself. I no longer see myself through the eyes of my WS. Good start, huh? I am starting to accept who he is as well, though I still believe he is slowly becoming the man I used to know only wiser. I could be wrong which is why I am on the fence.

Lemonman, I AM a FFFFWW. I will never be one again. So that is who I am.