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Pep, Quote: //reviving the already dead// I thought that was what Viagra was for???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> .....& U call yourself a doctor?!?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Luv'ya. L.
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If reconcilitaion with your WW is in "divine order"(give it up to God,) then it will come to pass but by your WW's hand.Unlike Nature, who's WW was reaching out to him without the threat of jail time and coerced NC,your actions must be circumspect right now.Of course we would all love to see your marriage survive and be better just remember to follow all the rules of this "game".
Believer...
I agree whole heartedly with this sentiment....then it will come to pass...beautifully said...
and i am by no means telling cymanca to buy her roses and sweep things under the rug....
BUT
what I am saying is I am fearful of we the collective deciding what is hitting bottom and what is not hitting bottom....for someone else...
AND
I am fearful of our inability to see God's Grace in someone hitting bottom....
her attempts at reaching out are feeble and weak at best...but that is all she has known for a long long time..
the layers of rationalization are deep..
as is her lie upon lie...
and acts of honor are far far removed from her
we should not judge her attempts...
for there is some good in them...
which does NOT mean throw her a party...
but she is very lost...
and what she is offering is better than NOTHING>..atleast that is what I believe...
is Cymanca forced to
or even called to be her savior and way home to the light again...
not necessarily....
BUT I am huge proponent of giving credit to even the smallest of good deeds ...for they can be building blocks...and I believe it is the tiniest seeds of change..one act of kindness
one act of clarity
one act of taking responsibility....
can be the start..
I am not even saying she has done any of this...but when I give up my hope that it can happen....all is lost...
I am not saddened by Cys choice that he has had enough..
I respect that....
and find no problem with that....
no blame no onus of responsibility..
but we should always try to see our own defenses we buildup and obtain to survive the onslaught and horrificness of infidelity....and make sure it doesn't forever cloud our vision to see good things when they do and or might occur...
I may not know when i have hit bottom so I pray that others around have the wisdom to see it and pull me back....
cymanca is a good man....
his journey as been painful and unfair....
and I wish him only respite
there are people that are evil and vile to the core...
and we have jails for them and that is where they belong till they die...without question...
and then we have people who just get so lost and so far removed from things...
that they become just lonely and pitifull...
till they do right by those they have wronged no good will ever come for them....
but...
and here's my but
that doing right by those they have wronged must start somewhere....
I don't know why I am rambling on this topic...
it has triggered something in me...
so I ask for pardon as I use this forum and poor cymanca to figure out why villifying her swarmy attempts at best has me so sad..........
cymanca you are a good man...
and you do deserve better......
ARK^^
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Cym:
Sorry about your sitch but until your ww eliminates any and all contact, it will be difficult, if not impossible for her to reconnect with you. In my experience, the ww must go through WD and the time period they blame the BS for taking away the love of their, their OP.
You must continue to accept the majority of the blame for things you never did, for the marriage problem that you didn't cause, and for the anti-spouse feelings your WW has for you. Your redemption day will come much later. It may take 6 to 9 months for remorse and for some reconnection to happen. In the mean time, you must suffer your just due as all of us BS's had to do for reasons unbeknown to us.
Don't expect a victory over the defeated, don't expect good will win over evil, simply hope that you can survive against the most difficult of the battles to fight, and that is your spouse falling in love with another person at your expense. You must remember they feel the same for their lover as they felt for you when they fell in love with you many years ago.
This love they feel is so real to them, even though it is built on fantasy. Don't give up hope. You are a smart man but you are fighting the devil himself.
TooSoon If I didn't read so much here on the forum, i would be tempted to hope that if and when my WH takes the first steps towards NC with OP and a willingness to reconcile, that there would also be immediate and complete remorse and acknowledgement for all the pain and suffering the BS has gone through. But that is not typically so. There is often a long and painful withdrawal period, breeches of NC that set back to square one. It's not until withdrawal is over that recovery can begin. Cy, I think your WW is showing signs of wanting to save the M, but she is not sure that it is possible or that you want it. Do you? The potential rewards may be great, but it is a long, strenuous, and painful road. Would it be worth it to you? TooSoon and Ark have hit a soft chord in my heart. Amazing that there is a still soft chord there. My WS is in deep fog and doesn't seem a bit fazed by my Plan B darkness at all. Wishing you a continued personal recovery in whatever you choose for your future, Cy...
Me BS 44
XH 45
M 20 years
D19
D12
DDay 11.29.04
Separated 12.29.04
Plan A 24.02.05
Plan B 10.9.05
Plan D 2.2.06
Divorce 13.6.06
OW - former friend and D12's x-godmother (Skunkypoo)
OWH - philander, XH's former best friend (still shares skunkypoo with XH)
Anger = drinking a rat poison and waiting/wishing the rat would notice you drink it and the rat die from it.
Redhat
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Cy, Your head must be swimming with all these "opinions" coming at you.Hope it's not too overwhelming.You can always say stop. Let's back up a moment: She sent me the NC letter after coming to my office to say she wanted things the way they were and telling me that she couldn't find a better husband. She also wanted me to sign a tax check on which she had forged my name I don't perosnally see where there is a tride and true remorsseful desire here to reconcile.She basically hands you this NC letter that we have no idea if it truly made it to OM or if she is being honest about it already being over,but she also at the same time wants you to endorse a forged check? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Is this the mark of a woman truly hitting bottom or just caught in the act again? Ark,I am flattered you that you quoted me as believer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but referring back to Cy's analogy of the man caught under the rock: no one can ever know what the future holds and by that awareness,we have choice and free will.Whether or not it's divine order or it "just happens",Cy cannot know for certain what his WW is thinking or what her motives are at any given time partly based upon her past actions,she is untrustworthy. Yes he could wait and see if his WW is hitting bottom and be there with open arms or even just a curiosity but we all know that's a fools game with a WS.She admits to wanting things the way they were.No acknowledgement that things CANNOT go back to the way they were in any sense.She hasn't fully grasped the total destruction done here.I suppose I am less "forgiving" in this matter as I expect the seriousness of the severe pain and suffering to be taken into account on some level and ammends made in order for a BS to risk,taking back a WS. The balance must be weighed with taking a WS back and going thorugh those actions and years of recovery,even on the best of terms or following through on the D and what that entails and what CY wants.Not a day goes by,still,that I don't wonder the what if's but those have no weight in my life now since it was very clear that my WH was not going to change or do any self introspsection but more so since that old life is over and I can never go back.There is,for some,a point of no return.It is unhealthy and not in the best interest of the individual to take that path despite how difficult it can be to come to terms with that.We all know that not every marriage should be saved but we are all having this very indepth discussion about CY's life when if you look back to what happened,it was a minor,IMO,action on the part of the WW that for other posters may have been given much less creedence. I beleive we should judge attempts.We do watch and account all actions by a WS.That is how we survive and plan for our futures,with or without them.The term "judge" seems to have a negative aspect as if only God can do this but when you look at the definition:evaluate;estimate,et al,then it is a natural response in our daily lives.WS's are lost but just how long do we hold out for them? How long do we put our lives on hold while they hit bottom and then,are we willing and capable to be the ones to pick them up off the floor and should we? It's an extremely personal decision. Doing "tough love" with my Mom being an alcoholic was the only way she fought her way out knowing I would not be there ONLY AND UNTIL she sought help herself and made the decison to change her life.I could not do that for her.She had to want to turn her life around. I am not a proponent of BS's being responsible for the WS coming out of their WS induced lives.They have to want to do it for themselves and realize what is at stake.They have to take necessary actions to show the BS that they are serious about what they claim.Actions.I am familiar with your lighthouse "theory" but it is also incumbent upon the WS to do what is necessary for reconciliation.That somewhere they start with is at home,themselves. I don't believe anyone is vilifying Cy's WW.But,we are looking at her actions throught the lenses of experience. *Let's be careful not to be swayed by the emotions that can cloud our judgment but yet be clear about what it is we want and need from those in our lives,especially at times like this. O Ok,deeeep breath.......
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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believer..
my point is that I am not sure that she capable of tried and true remorsefullness all at one time...
some people self destruct if they view all the horror they have laid in their wake...
sometimes it is small glimmers of letting some of it in and rolling it around on ones tongue to taste the bitterness and swallow a tiny piece...
again I am not saying she is anywhere near reconciling or facing her demons.......
nor am I encouraging cy to do anything.....
perhaps to watch and see...
and give credit where is due...
I don't disagree with anything you say...
except that people that for forever haven't done anything right....sometimes really don't know what is right...and they do need people to show them again.......
and I pray that those people always have someone to encourage the continuation of the journey they MAY be tipping their toe in.........
I say judge the actions...
but attempt to see some if any good in those that warrant it........
and disparage the rest as they should be.........
WS surround themselves with people that offer no objective moral compass...
you say
I am not a proponent of BS's being responsible for the WS coming out of their WS induced lives.
and I think I say as being Christ like on this earth perhaps that is what we are all called to do....
sheesh I don't know....
ARK
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Miss ark, why do you keep calling me believer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Cy's WW may not be capable of remorse yet.True.But how long should he wait for that to come,if ever? I have seen time and time again some people that do realize what their mistakes are and they turn their lives around.It may come in dribs and drabs or a full blown clarity.What I am suggesting: that it is the choice of the BS to decide for themsleves,given what they have been through,to choose if and when to give the time and effort to seeing if the WS's actions and claims are genuine.It is a lot to ask,IMO,for this,what I call,gift of chance after something so dreadful as adultery. Sometimes it all comes years later when the BS is long gone.That is a sad reality.I agree Cy is the only one who can decide if and how long he will wait to see if his WW's actions support any amount of recovery desire.So far,I have not seen anything legitimate,IMO although I cannot know for certain as I am not Cy nor do I know he and his WW personally.It's purely conjecture at this stage. I don't disagree with anything you say...
except that people that for forever haven't done anything right....sometimes really don't know what is right...and they do need people to show them again....... In essence I agree however,there comes a time to be an adult and take charge of your own life lest you continue to make the same mistakes.Cy has shown his WW how she can return to a possible reconciliation.We all do that with our PBLs' right? It's still a waiting game now.But we have also seen the dishonesty even if a PBL is sent and other actions not conducive to R. and I think I say as being Christ like on this earth perhaps that is what we are all called to do.... "Christ like" can have several meanings to every individual.I am not sure what you mean by that but for me,I believe that upholding truth and respect and being caring but not accepting bad behavior repeatedly and living a life close to God is my partial interpretation.Choosing to live a life of dishonesty and deceit,selfishness and carelssness as in a WS 's actions is not being Christ like.Seeking out God and His help is. It's all good ark! This is good to talk about.Get's the wheels spinning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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OH CRAP!!!!!!!!! I am soooooo sorry.........sheeesh...begging forgivenss... did I do it on last nights post also.. what an idiot... sorry sorry sorry... but the good news is there is nothing wrong with being called believer....... anywho..... OCTOBERGIRL...which is my fav month as in birthday month... I am not saying he should seek reconcilliation or not move on the path he is... but perhaps respond in kind to the attempts... point direction is how they SERVE her well to begin to view her actions diffently than she has cocooned herself in to seeing them............... OCTOBERGIRL SAID.........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Choosing to live a life of dishonesty and deceit,selfishness and carelssness as in a WS 's actions is not being Christ like.Seeking out God and His help is. I agree with that...so when they show small tiny attempts who is there to validate them? surely not those that believe in if it feels good...just do it.... In my opinion that is Christ like..to validate the good... and validating doesnt' mean forgiving or accepting..it means modeling and giving credit........ AA is the organization that never turns it back on anyone...no matter the vile acts the disease has created in them and of them... it's alway there.... patiently waiting.... I am not saying his wife has done anything remarkable but perhaps she is like the Grinch..... he stood in the snow with his feet freezing for a long long time..... and he processed it little by little... ARK
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Miss ark,
why do you keep calling me believer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> LUV IT! Arkie is getting old! Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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The general conversation here has been in regards to her state of mind, is she truly contrite, and has she done enough to effect a reconciliation. this is pretty key for me ... because you and I have discussed your wife's mental illness a little bit, off and on. ... and you realize that her "state of mind" is very , very mobile (for lack of a better word) her stability and reliability may never reach the level of where she can be depended upon to make choices that will be benificial to the marriage ... I just don't know if she is capable due to her illness ... she will likely continue to show weaknesses in decision-making whenever her illness becomes less manageable ... and it does not mean you cannot love her and reconcile with her ... you can <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... but I think you need to be very real with yourself about her inate capabilities and lack of ability in certain areas of her personality
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I really don't mind being confused with Lady B so no worries there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> October is my favorite month too. Ok so if Cy responds to the(feeble) attempts his WW has made,how should he proceed? Like Doc Lem said,his WW has not made any claims to want to reconcile only that she wanted things to go back to the way they were (IMO only because she wants to time travel back to before her problems existed hence not taking responibility for her actions),he also said that the e-mails represented a lack of respect for him,doesn't know for sure if the OM received the NC letter or that she blocked her e-mail address form him or other's,and they are continuing on with the D mediation without any mention of the WW saying "Stop this D,I want to work this out or anything similar,at least I have not seen Cy mention that as of yet. Too many negatives working here to say,ok,there is a glimmer of hope to take hold of,at least for me.Small attempts I think many of us can spot but also we can spot feeble attempts that are not true in nature,that is my feeling thus far.I could be proven wrong,who knows? In my opinion that is Christ like..to validate the good...
and validating doesnt' mean forgiving or accepting..it means modeling and giving credit........ I agree but,giving credit where credit is due is my mantra.So far I don't see much to be worked up about.Maybe on a very superficial layer we could say,yeah,this is great,Cy finally got his NC letter but too many Q's remain unanswered related to that( as stated above). AA is the organization that never turns it back on anyone...no matter the vile acts the disease has created in them and of them...
it's alway there....
patiently waiting.... Agreed and I witnessed this firsthand with my Mom and me being in Al-Anon.However,a good portion of the recovery of these people is a desire to want to help themselves get better and stick with the plans to that path.AA does not go "hunting" for members but rather they do wait pateintly for the discovery of those individuals of realizing they need help.But there also has to be growth and an undertanding that you do take responsibility for your actions and adultery has yet to be declared a "disease",to my knowledge. It may very well be that his WW grows without Cy.Who knows but what it comes down to for me,is a personal decision with which way you want your life to go.That is not dependent upon anyone but yourself,IMO.If I had waited another 6-10 months for my WH to "get it" or hit bottom or whatever,I would be in terribly bad shape now.I know it.I was dying a slow painful death waiting for my WH to do anything that meant he cared for me,fog or not.I had to make decisions based on what was happening to ME.Not on what was happening to *WH.That is the difference. Plus,the Grinch wasn't married.LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> O P.S. I am definitely NOT an enabler.
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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10Girl,Ark, Pep and Susan,
Sorry about not acknowleging your posts sooner but I have had a couple of very trying days. I was going to write a long response to what appears to be the main point of contention but at this last moment I decided to just post an email just received from WW
///Dear Cymanca,
Got a call from my lawyer. Guess we have a meeting set for Dec. 5th. I hope this isn't going to be a waste of yours and my time. I know you started on an email to me a few days ago. I hope you don't think my intention was to place blame on you. I'm not...............and never will!!!! I know I can't say this enough, but I'm truly sorry for everything.
C
PS Enjoy Thanksgiving with your family!!!!!
Divorced:
"Never shelter anyone from the realities of their decisions": Noodle
You believe easily what you hope for ernestly
Infidelity does not kill marriages, the lying does
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Hi, Cyman.
Quoting Cyman's wayward wife:
===============================================
///Dear Cymanca,
Got a call from my lawyer. Guess we have a meeting set for Dec. 5th. I hope this isn't going to be a waste of yours and my time. I know you started on an email to me a few days ago. I hope you don't think my intention was to place blame on you. I'm not...............and never will!!!! I know I can't say this enough, but I'm truly sorry for everything.
C
PS Enjoy Thanksgiving with your family!!!!!
===============================================
I know you want honest opinions, so here are a couple of translations for you.
First off, here is what I think you want to hear;
"Dear Cyman.
I am so sorry for all the hurt and suffering I have caused you. The things I have done are wrong. I can never provide appropriate restitution for my actions. Please forgive me and consider taking me back. I promise that I will never do those hurtful things again."
Here is what I think she is really saying;
"Dear Cyman.
I am really sorry for everything. Let's just be friends and make this difficult time easier for me to get through. Please don't be mad at me."
I am sorry for your pain, Cyman. I pray that God will bless you with clear choices and peace in the choices you make.
Gimble
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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Cy, My WH has been saying the same exact lines to me since DDay,e.g: "I am truly sorry for everything". But you know what? It didn't have one shred of meaning to me because his actions NEVER backed up his words.Yes he claims he was sorry but went right about doing the same old things all along,even just the past few months. If he was truly sorry he wouldn't have kept doing those painful things to me.It's more about being sorry that he caused all this pain but that it was worth it since he didn't choose to make it stop.I was still as I was back in 10/03-not worth fighting for so why would I want him back? I don't. Anyway,I wouldn't personally read more into the e-mail than is there.See how the mediation goes. Also: I have been tied up the last day trying to make flight connections for my aunt's funeral I hope all goes as well as can be expected for this Cy and you have a safe flight,whenever that is.Prayers to your family~ O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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You were all correct. It was a sham to get the money.
Divorced:
"Never shelter anyone from the realities of their decisions": Noodle
You believe easily what you hope for ernestly
Infidelity does not kill marriages, the lying does
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That really bites, Cymanca.
You know what to do now.
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You were all correct. It was a sham to get the money. Oh man. I'm really sorry to hear that. She was just playing you. In some ways that makes it all easier for you I guess? God Bless you.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Cy,
I am sorry. R u sure? Boy even when it sure does look that way......when it is confirmed, it still hurts.
Hugz,
L.
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Boy I am sorry too. I am more sorry for her though. How awful to go through life never knowing what it is like to truly love, or to know the joy of putting someone else above yourself.
What I wish for you is to be done with this and to find yourself in the loving arms of a really good woman. I know you are going to have that and that your pain is almost over now. It would have been nice if God's grace would have found her...but I guess that was not the plan right now.
You've done your time now Cy.
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Cymanca's request... 11-15 BTW God if you are listening, I don't like subtle signs. Make it BIG. WW email... 11-16 ///Dear Cymanca,
Got a call from my lawyer. Guess we have a meeting set for Dec. 5th. I hope this isn't going to be a waste of yours and my time. I know you started on an email to me a few days ago. I hope you don't think my intention was to place blame on you. I'm not...............and never will!!!! I know I can't say this enough, but I'm truly sorry for everything.
C
PS Enjoy Thanksgiving with your family!!!!! Cymanca, I don't know your whole situation. I have only began to read this thread. Anything prior to that...I have no idea. But could this be the answer to your prayer? My sympathies to you. Lady
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Good luck with your mediations. Hopefully sometime soon after the mediations the WW will have an epiphany <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> and wake up to what she's doing / going to loose. Perhaps then she may become willing to work on restoration or your M. Until then protect yourself. She is becoming increasingly desperate.
WTF
*** Warning *** Make sure brain is engaged before shifting mouth out of Neutral.
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