Averageguy...
You say 'He should respect her views, no matter how irrational they are.'

sorry matey but your sexist attitudes are sneakin out again


I can see nothing more irrational than a person even questioning the fact that porn is disrespectful to women.....but I wont go there.

May I suggest a(as you requested some web sites for your education????? Particularly interesting is the recent reserach that has demonstrated a decrease in mens attraction to everday women (wives and gf) after viewing even mild forms of porn

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0388_Effects_of_Pornograp.html

Perhaps you may like to visit this one
http://www.no-porn.com/

it has thousands of postings fr0om women whos marriages have been destroyed (or close to destroyed like mine ) from the effects of porn and men who are trying to fight it.

Have you read any feminist literature????(or do you consider this a dirty word.? ) Rememeber feminism is just the radical idea that woman deserve the same as men.....

May I ask where you draw the line If you consider porn harmless is the sex trade harmless also ? What about sex tourism much of which involves the most powerless of girls and women forced into a life of selling themselves for sex.

How can a man look at this crap and then look a women in the eye walking down the street without seeing her as flesh first , human second.
Personally I know that I wont get through a day without receiving lustful looks from men, several of whom I feel look at me like they are undressing me with their eyes. (other women know what I mean).Do you ever look at women like that

Humanity is in dire straits if there is even one man out there who believes this doesnt disrepsct women.

Sorry if I seem 'passionate about but this it is nt an attack on you but simply my frustration that some people freely give their opinions despiute the fact that they are clearly uneducated without a disclaimer on the top.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html

Dr. Harley has answered a question almost exactly like the question posed by the thread starter.

Look letmejustsay, I understand our point of view. It seems that you are really passionate about it.

You go on how evil porn is, calling me a sexist pig, etc. You totally disregard anything that I write. You totally disrespect my point of view. It appears that you consider your viewpoint is right and my viewpoint is wrong. How enlightening!

You ask several questions in your post. Did you mean to answer them, or are you going to disregard my answers to them as well?

The problem is, dear letmejustsay, that there are, for better or for worse, plenty of guys with a “sexist pig attitude” as I am, who do not see anything wrong with porn. Unfortunately, you have to deal with that. Sorry.

If you want to understand such a guy’s point of view, read what I write. You can find it distasteful, but maybe you’ll understand it just exactly why some guys do not see anything wrong with porn.

And if you just want to unload and scream at someone because of the constant sexual harassment which you and encounter everyday (just like my wife today, or my daughters in the near future <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />), then that’s OK too.

Actually, it is a totally different problem. Dr. Harley answered a question of “JS” whose H’s enthusiasm for sex has decreased, and where the woman and her H make love only once or twice a month.

What “SSP” wrote is that their sex is good, but that it bothers her that he “gets off” by looking at pictures other women.

I agree that the only way to resolve JS’s problem is to eliminate porn entirely, this is not the only answer in SSP’s case. SSP’s answer might be as simple as understanding her spouse and supporting his activities. If SSP’s sex with H is good, then what’s the problem?

I just wanted to let everyone here know how enlightening this thread is, I plan to have my H read it and discuss it. I hope it will open some doors for us.

Happy Thanksgiving!

AverageGuy,

Would you ever advise someone saying. I am simply saying that if W is upset that H uses [HEROIN] then there are two possibilities to resolve this problem: (1) he can respect her wishes and forego [HEROIN], or (2) she can learn to accept him and be supportive of his activities.

By your rational, you should be able to insert ANY ACTIVITY in your "so-called" advice and then it is OK if the wife is "SUPPORTIVE". That is why I consider you VERY ignorant of the affects of Pornography. Pornography is not "evil" it is simply a drug. If you don't get that, it doesn't surprise me, many drug users don't think their drug has negative impacts on them or their marriage.

You defend your drug use, because your wife accepts it. <golf clap>.

Is pornography degrading to women? No, the women in the industry really enjoy what they are doing. It is sad. If you say it is degrading to women without saying the same thing with men, that is only a naive perspective on how big pornography has grown and all the different perversions in which it entails. The subject is not about men disrespecting women. It is about the damage that it does to the mind, just like any drug. And most users don't think that they are being damaged, just like all drug users.

To quote ManofGod

'pornography degrading to women? No, the women in the industry really enjoy what they are doing. It is sad. If you say it is degrading to women without saying the same thing with men, that is only a naive perspective on how big pornography has grown and all the different perversions in which it entails'

ManofGod Im not talking about the actresses Im talking about the way porn degrades women in general, wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, friends, colleagues.
I will believe that porn degrade men as a whole in the same way it disrepects women whene the following theings happen (all of which are unlikely given the society we live in)

1 Every newsagency I enter is suddenly filled with nearly naked mens bodies staring at me. Of course these bodies will only be the bodies of approximately 1% of the male popluation and any diversity will be unacceptable.

2.When the women dowm the street sudddenly start evaluating men based on whether they fit the 'ideal' ie like we hear men call women dogs, fat s....., nice rack, blah blah blah

3 When ,mainstream porn suddenly consists of men serving womens every desire however sick, ie when men have objects inserted into every conceivable orifice, when popular porn consists of men having body fluids spewed over their faces???

(of course I would never want to see these things as it would be just as bad to turn the tables and disrespect men in this way)

Of course there is all sorts of bizzarre stuff out there that caters to this but it is the vast MINORITY.

Most porn does not celebrate any diversity of the female body, it does not respect womens as sacred (just as men are too). It does not express the true meaning of sex. It lies , it pollutes minds (which I know you said you agree with) This pollution of minds is a huge constributing factor to women being disrespected. You may say ''Oh but that is the man disrespecting not porn, but in my case the porn was wahat created the false ideas in my H mind leading him to disrespect me. Ironically Im guessing its also porn which created enough disrespect in the man (a complete stranger who walkined up to me last month to tell me I should consider 'spreading it for t. magazine..bizzare.
Personally I dont believe most of the actresses enjoy it either but if you chose to believe this its your choice but when I talk about disrespect Im talking about women and the disrepsct for female sexuality .

Sorry Im not more articulate but I have included a link to an article about the topic. Be WARNED it is explicit in part (because of the nature of this topic I do not feel it is gratuitous.) If you care to read it I would be interested in your feedback.
Heres the link.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/justprudes.htm

Avereage I do not mean to shot you down...I simply must stand up and say what I feel (just ike you) There are many out there who agree (and no doubt many who dont ) I guess if that werent the cae=se then we wouldt be havingthis debate........We are all products of our upbringing, experiences and dna.
Its a wonderful world that we are all so unique

letmejustsay,

I hear your point and side, I really do. You are touching on just one small problem with pornography. I say small, because it is MUCH worse than you seem to touch on or may even realize. The fear I have of your argument is that it is much easier to shoot down, reject and chuckle at. Not from me, but those who choose to defend it and indulge in it.

Yes, all the things you describe as negatives are true, but it is becoming so main-stream and it's acceptance by WOMEN grows more and more everyday.

Women like looking at women NOW! They enjoy the sexuality of a woman; the curves, the softness, the beauty. They may not fantasize in the way men do, but they do admire it. Female sexuality sells to everyone, not just men. That is why advertisements use it. This is just another area of pornography in my opinion. And it is accepted by most.

I will say, thank God for Janet Jackson's breast during the Super Bowl half-time show a couple of years ago. That seemed to tone down sexuality in ads somewhat, but it has not gone away by any means either. The government has stepped in to help regulate that more now, but it is still an uphill battle that I don't see getting easier as time goes on. We will soon forget and things will become more and more taboo and explicit again.

I just hope that you know that I wasn't trying to knock you. I think we are on the same side of the fence. I just want you (and others) to understand that it goes way beyond the demeaning of women.

ManofGod You are absolutely rightin all you have said.
It does go beyond. It very complex and is becoming more and more pervasive as it grows in acceptance. I suppose that the only thing to do is to live our own lives according to our values and to hold our heads up and defend what we believe in. Best wishes....

MoG, I am sorry, but I just don't understand you.

One should NOT accept nor support spouse's destructive habits such as heroin use. Heroin will cost the user extraordinary amounts of money, more then he can afford. Heroin will make it less likely for the user to hold a job. Heroin will cause the user trouble with the law. Heroine will be destructive to the user's health, both physical and mental. Heroin will be destructive to user's life, family, friends, and society in general. There are many other problems that the use of heroin causes. And that's why a one should NOT support spouse's heroin use.

If porn were as destructive as heroin, then I'd agree with you. But it is simply silly that in majority of cases porn causes any of the above problems. Read SSP's, the original poster's question; she does not mention any such problems.

Look, a guy simply spends 5 to 10 minutes a couple of times a week looking at porn. He spends a couple of bucks a month on it. He simply let's off steam, which decreases his sexual tension, so that he can go on with his life. As a matter of fact, if a guy has a much greater sex drive then the women, I see the use of porn on his part as a very BENEFICIAL activity.

If a guy does have a stronger sexual drive then she does, he has several options:
(1) force his wife to submit to him more often, and have her serve him sexually more then she wants to;
(2) be sexually unfulfilled and frustrated, resent wife's lack of low sexual drive, wonder if he should have married her in the first place, and even wonder if he can get a little side action going; or
(3) devote 10 minutes couple of times a week to porn and get on with his life.
Which of these 3 options is the best for him? Which of these three options is best for her?

Fair enough. Perhaps my mind is so polluted by porn that I am blind to problems that it causes, as you suggest. I don't think so, but how do I know?

I took a look at the sites that letmejustsay recommended. I took the test on www.no-porn.com to see if I am a "porn addict". Out of the some 30 questions, I answered affirmatively only to one. To each of the other 30 questions I answered NO. No, it does not prevent me from having a loving relationship with my wife. No, I do not use porn and neglect the kids when my wife is out. No, I do not dig through other people's trash looking for porn.... Sorry, according to the site, I am NOT a porn addict.

If someone is sick enough to neglect his kids because of porn, then yes, porn should be eliminated from his life. But in my case, SSP's husband's case, and the vast majority of guys, porn is NOT a destructive force. Don't make it a bigger problem for SSP then it really is. You are needlessly freaking SSP and women like her out.

If my wife would have the same unyielding attitude towards porn as, for example, letmejustsay has, but otherwise be the same wonderful wife that she is, then it would be obvious that I have a choice to make if I wanted to stay with her:
(1) disrespect her views, continue to use porn, and simply hide it from her; or
(2) respect her views, no matter how extremist and irrational they appear to me, be somewhat resentful, and discontinue to use porn.
I'd say that I would chose (2). The trust between us, and support for each other is simply much more important then porn.

AverageGuy,


If you truly want to test this, then stop using Pornography for three months. Start a journal (even computer based in Notepad would work). Every day that you feel a draw to return to use it, write it down and describe the feeling you have (is it a strong desire, a mild desire, etc). Also, write about your emotional state at the time. Were you just horny, were you rejected by your wife for sex, bad day at work, good day at work, etc? Log and note each sexual experience with your wife. Did you fantasize about anything pornographic while making love to your wife? Did you imagine your wife or yourself doing anything pornographic or with anyone other than just you two? Also, log and note each time you masterbated. Did you fantasize about anything other than you and your wife, was it pornographic in any way?

If you slip up and use pornography during the three months, write about it. Why was the draw so strong as to pull you back in? What was your emotional state at the time?

At the end of this three month period, you will have a better assessment of yourself.

Letmejustsay, I understood (though did not agree with) your posting up to this point. But you totally lost me here.

Are you serious with such arguments? Of course porn does not celebrate diversity. Of course porn does not express the true meaning of sex. What do you think porn is, a documentary?

Porn is a fantasy. Guys like to look at women who they consider sexually attractive. They want to see not average body. They want to see the ideal body. They don't want to see diverse body. What would be the point? The porn industry undoubtedly looks for women not who are diverse or average, but who are as sexy to most guys as possible. You know, slender, big boobs, tight [censored], etc. Whatever at the time is considered ideal.

(Aside: Now, some guys get off with women with huge boobs, or college age waifs, or women over 40, or grossly overweighed women, or women of particular race or hair color. So there is diversity in porn, but I don’t think that this is what you were writing about, right? You were complaining that most women in porn are "beautiful", and not representative of the general population, right?)

But porn industry is not the only one which selects actors and actresses on the basis of their looks. ALL of the entertainment industry does this. People want to see beautiful looking models on runways. People want to see good looking people on shows like "Friends" or "Sex in the City" or "Days of our Lives". People want to see a good looking actor cast as James Bond to battle the next villain, and not some pudgy, balding, average or "diverse" man.

Porn films are NOT documentaries. They are fantasies. Complaining that porn does not accurately portray women is as ludicrous as complaining that "Star Wars" does not accurately portray the space program.

Thanks for the link, letmejustsay. I've read it, and I came to the conclusion that there are much better sources of arguments of why porn is evil.

Jensen primarily argues that porn is bad, because of the victimization of women in the porn industry. That women do not have a realistic economic choice. That such women are simply sex objects.

This is pretty weak argument. If a woman is an adult and she chooses to go into porn, then that's her choice. She signs a contract, and gets paid for it. She is the same as any other worker. We all go to work to make money. We all are simply wh0res who do what our employer pays us to do. She is exploited for her body, same as other workers are exploited for their mind or strong back.

Your argument, that porn is evil because it has a negative effect on all women, every day, is much more persuasive.

(BTW, from the introduction to his article, and from his portrayal of himself crying in the embrace of his "friend" Miguel in a Las Vegas bar, I was wondering what his problem was. I looked at his other articles, and then it hit me. Did you happen to read on why Thanksgiving is evil, and why the empire called USA should be destroyed? If you want to argue about evils of porn, you really should find a better writer; this loony guy does nothing for your side.)

Mog-
"Women like looking at women NOW! They enjoy the sexuality of a woman; the curves, the softness, the beauty. They may not fantasize in the way men do, but they do admire it. Female sexuality sells to everyone, not just men. That is why advertisements use it. This is just another area of pornography in my opinion. And it is accepted by most."

I'd like to throw a curveball into this debate. Recently, a relative of my H went through a D after his W had an A with another woman. This couple addmittedly watch porn and occasionally went to strip clubs together. She was okay with his use of porn. Was she born to be attracted to woman or did an unfulfilled EN along with what MoG has said above draw her to have an A with a woman?

needtotalk,

Perversion of the mind indirectly caused her to have an A with another woman. I say indirectly, because nearly everything is about "choice".

I'd be curious to know if this affair was just to meet her need for "Sexual Fulfillment" which obviously has been perverted by the porn and strip clubs. Or is there problems in the marriage as well.

Either way, this is an example of playing with fire and then getting burned by it.

Hi all, needtosay , sorry to hear about this couple, very sad, I agree with MoG that this is a case of playing with fire.
Average, Thanks for taking the time to check out some of these links. I didnt expect to ''convert' you to my way of thinking simply to open the path for other Povs. Anyway, its great for you that your naot an addict (as you say. Great for you that your wife is fine with it all. So all I ask now is what you do in your life to contribute to the fair and equal treatment of women. AIf porn is OK then is there any problem with your daughters using it??????After all is just a little 5 to 10 minutes a week that guys use it? Right.
Are you happy to leave your w with a man who consistemntly views porn? say on a weekend work conference. It seems that you in no way believe it contributes to men viewing women as 'meat'
(I havenet read all the Jensen articles but will go back and check them out.....Im here in Australia so thankgiving is not something we celebrate but I will be interested to have a look.)
Im glad that you can at least see some sense in the concept that porn is degrading to women as a whole.
In relation to the choices made by those in porn you must remember these choices are made within a context. In this case the context of a society where porn, the sex trade and modelling are the only industries where women can earn the same as men. Is it also a choice that young girls in Singapore make. NO it all about context.

It is probably not worth trying to ask a man who view porn to understand the choices women make and the ways in which society influences them.

Sure porn is not about diversity......I understand that all media is not...So why encourage it??????? By viewing this stuff you become part of it. I guess the question is to YOU want to be part of the problem or the solution???????

Personally I believe that a defeatist attitude of 'well thats the way the world is, thats what men like' is not good enough .

Yeah sure Im taking the moral highground, being idealist blah blah blah, but I wont be part of something that denegrates half the poplulation

This whole arguement about men needing this is rubbish...so often we see the old 'oh but its better he uses porn than has an affair' but are you really saying men are so incapable of integrity, honesty and faithfulness that it must be one or the other????Personally I reall would hope thats not true as most men I know are able to rise above this menatlity????

Just one extra question Average. Are you really trying to tell me that given a choice your wife would prefer a husband who shares his sexuality lusting over women in a glossy mag (for those 5-10 minutes a week) or would she prefer a husband who exclusively shares his sexuality with her and saves his lust for her.
Despite the fact she may say it doesnt worry her but given the honest choice which would she prefer.

My relationship with my husband has changed dramtically since he gave it up and we started counseling. The counselor told us they are seeing more and more cases with problems like ours especially since the internet became so available. My h says its like having his eyes opened after living in a fog.....he respects me much more now and our marriage has improved incredibly. We now have what I would consider 'true intimacy'.
In the days of his 5 -10 minutes a week of porn things were different. Like the counselor said 'many couples mistake the eroticism created by porn for intimacy, where in fact it decreases the true intimacy. We have found that our new found intimacy has made our relationship much closer and more erotic too. In fact he now says he cant understand how any man with a loving wife would even bother with porn??????

Does your 5 - 10 minutes a week of porn make your wife feel like the most important , respected beautiful women in the world to you????? ASK HER

You tell me: I’ve ordered and supervised the implementation of sexual harassment policies (it was a proactive not a reactive implementation). My writings on solving sexual harassment problems have been picked up by a number of sources (if you were to Google my real name, it would be in the top few dozen entries), and has been translated into other languages. In college, in view of total lack of ability of the otherwise progressive school stopping filthy leering by a certain professor, in my frustration I defaced the prof’s door. There is more.

No, I don’t deserve a medal, nor do you see my name in the forefront of battle for women’s rights. No, my employment does not involve investigating or punishing unfair or unequal treatment of women. But everyday I do work for fair and equal treatment of women. After all, my wife is a woman, and my 2 daughters will one day have to live in this world as women.

Now, tell me, what have YOU done in your life to contribute to the fair and equal treatment of women?