Hi everyone, I am new to this site and board. Today I was in search of advice and ran into you guys! I hope you all can give different views about my situation. As my situation in not as huge as some of the other posts I have read, it still upsets me. Today I found out that my husband of 1 year looks at porn on the internet. He told me out of the blue last night that he looked at porn once while I was gone on a trip for one week. Then today while on our computer I was curious to see if he still did it. And yes, I found traces of his porn from this past weekend. He is not too good with computers and doesnt know that the computer logs all internet activity. So I call him at work and yes he admitted that he does it every once in a while. He said since weve been together probably only 3 or 4 times. This upsets me very much! Our sex life is good. He doesnt complain and says that its not about that. He says he loves me, loves how I look, and loves our sex life. He says he does it out of boredom or because he needs to relieve stress when im not there. My husband was married before and said that he used to to it all the time before because there was no sex and he didnt want to be with his ex-wife. He also said it became a habit after he got divorced because he was a single bachelor. I am fine with all that but scared that I will become like his ex. I am very hurt by this, and it makes me feel like he betrayed me. I dont want to know that my husband looks at other women to "get off"(for lack of a better work, sorry). Eventhough, its only a few times it still makes me cry. Has any other women been through this? And for the men out there, is this normal, or should I be worried? I am scared it will develope into more. He says he is going to stop now that he knows it hurts me. But I am struggling with trusting him. Any advice or thoughts?

All I can say is this:

Whether or not your husband looks at porn, it has no bearing on your relationship. If your sex life is good, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

First off, welcome to the site, while you're here please read through all the basic concepts, there is a lot of information there. I believe in the Q&A section there are some good articles on porn.

So is porn a problem, I personally am against porn, but in your case I would still say it's a problem. Why? Because you don't want it in your marriage. That's a boundary you have and need to enforce if you believe in it. The excuse for using it when he is bored and you aren't there is another red flag to me. What happens when that ain't enough anymore? But the biggest red flag here to me is that he lied the night before. If it were a non-issue then why would he lie or not be totally open with it? When he lies, it's a problem.

I think it would be wise of you to take some time and explore your thoughts and feelings. Then effectively communicate those to him without using any disrespectful judgments.

Use a statements such as this "When you view porn, I feel betrayed as a wife because the I associate it with you getting arroused by other women......"

I think you need to have a very open and safe discussion. Find out how much he truly is using it. Talk to him about it being a boundary in your marriage. If he agrees to stop, follow through and keep checking.....

Another great post by Bill! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I am very hurt by this, and it makes me feel like he betrayed me."

Hi, ssp:

Your h is betraying a boundary, the same that you would be if you were sending naked pictures of yourself to other guys so that they could "get off" on you. Your h would feel rightfully betrayed by that.

I broke up with someone last year over his insistence that strip clubs are okay for bachelor parties, etc. He was actually willing not to do it (to shut me up!) but he defended other guys doing it, and that was dealbreaker enough for me. That showed me a real lack of empathy on his part, a lack of fairness (he admitted he wouldn't want ME taking my clothes off for other guys!), and a lack of several other qualities I'm looking for in a husband. Sounds like your h may have the same deficits as my ex to some extent. (I hope you don't hate me for saying that - I know it's not what you want to hear.)

My concern is that, like me with my ex, you'll lose respect for your h over this. You already seem to have trust issues arising from, or exacerbated by, this behavior. Trust and respect are essential ingredients for relationships, and I hope you are able to work this out to your satisfaction. No one "needs" porn. It sounds like your h has a habit he needs to break if he values your marriage.

Best of luck -

This has got to be one of the biggest piles of horse manure I have ever heard. a good sex life is not the only indicator of the health of a marriage.

I encourage you to spend a few minutes looking at other relationships destroyed by addictions to porn before you dismiss it so lightly.

Jaye's another wise man! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've noticed that in many threads.

Whether or not addiction is present, a loss of trust and respect on the part of a wife, or being made to feel unloved and objectified, obviously *does* have major bearing on a relationship.

Quite honestly, I have a feeling that men's "extracurricular" indulgences (even when no intercourse is involved) are sometimes what contributes to women looking outside the relationship for affection. I know that once I knew my ex might be going to strip clubs with his buddies, I felt no obligation to be faithful to him.

Best to all -

Hi ssp,

Hope you're still with us. I saw your post a couple of days ago, but haven't been able to write back until now.

Your post caught my eye because the combination of my husband's use of porn and my affair nearly ruined our marriage.

Allow me to tell you my story (as briefly as possible), in the hope that it will give you some insight into your own situation.

A little background: We've been married for 13 years and lived together for about 2 years before we got married. We have two daughters, 5 and 2 years old. We both have careers (sounds as though you two do as well?). About two years after we were married, I moved 200 miles away to persue a career opportunity. My husband and I only saw each other on weekends. That lasted for 1 1/2 years. Then a new career opportunity allowed me to move back home. But for the last 10 years, my husband and I have been on "opposite" schedules. I work 3-11 a.m. He works 9-5ish. So we don't see each other a lot during the week. And now with kids, our time is even more divided.

Early-on in our relationship, don't remember exactly when, I found some x-rated tapes my husband had. I told him why I didn't like them (same reasons as you, and probably most women). He told me he used to watch them in college and when he was single, and wouldn't anymore. Then went into a box in the basement. But somehow, some of them grew legs and made their way back into a dark little corner of our entertainment center. Who knows how long they were there before I found them. There was a repeat of my objections... and of his promise to never look at them again. Fast forward a few years. I'm pregnant with our first child. Late one night, I come downstairs to get a drink of water, and find him, on the couch, "taking care of business" to porn. The next day, I do some snooping and find a bunch of stuff on our computer. I write him a long letter explaining very clearly how it made me feel. He's even more apologetic than the other times and promises to stop.

Fast forward a few more years. Our marriage has become almost unbearable. We don't talk anymore. We're alienated from one another. He's short tempered with the children. We hardly ever have sex (maybe once every 2 or 3 months) and when we do, it's terrible. I'm thinking I never really loved him, or if I did, can't imagine what I saw in him. I'm also starting to wonder what's wrong with me because I don't even want to have sex anymore. It has been such a long time since my husband or anyone else has turned me on. Then out of the blue this sexy, exciting, younger man flirts with me and Whamo! I discover my libido is still very much alive and well.

Anyway, I ended up having a brief, sex-driven affair with the guy (Aug/Sept of this year). A couple of weeks later, I told my husband that I no longer loved him, didn't know if I ever did, and that our marriage was in trouble. But I didn't tell him about the affair. We started marriage counseling immediately. Soon thereafter, He told me that he had a confession that he had been watching porn again recently. I kind of brushed it off, saying thank you for telling me, but it was probably my fault since I wasn't very receptive to him anyway.

Three weeks later, with some prodding from the people on this forum, I fessed-up. That was Halloween night. Then last week, as I was explaining to him how lonely and unsexy I had felt leading up to the affair, he came totally clean. He said the porn had been an on-and-off again thing throught the marriage... not much at first... more when I moved away... less when I moved back... more when I started my early morning schedule... more and more and more after the children came... to the point that it had become a nightly thing. (It wasn't just porn. There was also a fair amount of drinking and some gambling).

My point is this: Early on, he said the same things your husband is saying about how he "used-to" do it a lot but only "once or twice" since we got together. And then it was "only when you're not here". Every situation is different, and every individual is different. But the similarities between our husbands -- and their rationalizations -- seem strikingly similar to me. Does that mean he will become addicted to it like my husband did? Not necessarily, but it sounds to me like it could go that way.

So I'm not sure what advice to give you, except don't let him or anyone else brush this off as no big deal. IT IS A BIG DEAL. AND IT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME AN EVEN BIGGER DEAL. Remain vigilant about this.

Fortunately, when faced with the crisis of losing his family, my husband has made a 180-degree turnaround. He fully recognizes how damaging it was to our marriage. And I'm taking responsiblity for the affair. We have a chance to make this work. But his years of porn use robbed us of precious weeks, months, and years we can never get back. I pray your husband sees the light sooner.

Take care of yourself and I wish you and your husband all the best.

--SC

Things I hope you will understand about pornography. Pornography is a drug. And many who view it regularly are addicted to it. For some, it is just like recreational use of drugs and they can move on from it. For others, the addiction occurs due to them wanting to escape from life and experience a state of euphoria that can be attained from using the drug. Many porn-addicts spend hours upon hours using their drug each day.

People with this type of addiction need couseling and help to recover from it. When dealing with porn, you must treat it like a drug.

Nobody quits a drug addiction cold turkey, they need counseling, an accountability partner, and constant monitoring over a set period of time. Complete openness, honesty about what they're doing on the computer is a must (if that is their source). I would suggest moving the computer to a non-private area, possibly even with anti-pornography software installed on it.

I can tell you a couple of things:

You are not alone. I think most women feel the way that you do about porn.

Also, I guarantee your husband is down-playing the frequency or number of times he views it.

On the other hand, as a guy, I can tell you that porn really has NOTHING to do with his satisfaction with the marriage, sex, or you. That's where women misunderstand. They think we have a connection to the girls in the porn which we do not and they also think that we compare or like the porn more than our wife which is not the case either. Porn for guys is merely a tool to get off, some variety, some edginess. But it doesn't mean that we are not getting fufilled at all.

I know that with myself, porn viewing did not necessarily increase or decrease with satisfaction of my real sex life.

I think the only true danger is the hurt that it causes to you and the somewhat rarer cases where the guy associates porn with arousal soo much that he can't get arroused without it-- even when he's with his wife.


So there are dangers. But if you ever were to get to the point where you understood that porn does not mean he's unsatisfied with you, then I see no harm in you giving him the ok.

I would never give anyone the green-light to view pornography. Regardless if it becomes an addiction or not, it is a drug. It does desensitize sexuality & intimacy, it does pervert the mind.

Maybe wasp89 doesn't think it has impacted his satisfaction of his sex life, but I'm sure he also fantisizes in his mind while having sex with his wife as well. Is the purpose of sex with a woman just to get each other off or is there something more to it?

I agree with Wasp 89.

Porn really has nothing to do with you, ssp. Sex with you and the use of porn are really two different things. It has no bearing on sexual satisfaction or dissatisfaction with you, either sexually or emotionally.

If you forbid him from using porn, even if he understands your point of view and agrees with you, will make him needlessly miserable. At best it will make him feel guilty that "he cheated on you" when he used it, and will feel resentful that you forbid him from using it. At worst, he'll continue to use it and lie to you about it. Making him needlessly miserable is no way of running a marriage.

My advice: accept it as a part of his personal life. Think of it as a hobby for him. Let him know that porn makes you uncomfortable, but that you accept him using it and that you love him. Accept his use of it. Really. And he'll appreciate you for it.

Yes, you may want to put down some ground rules. Make sure that he understands that it should not be where kids or visitors may stumble on it, and that illegal porn (e.g. child porn) is unacceptable. But don't make it a point of contention between the two of you. There are bigger things in marriage to worry about then porn.

Yeah, accept his use of a drug. That's good advice. <-- insert sarcasm.

I don't disagree that pornography can be bad. Sort of like alcohol in that it does have the potential to create some serious problems in your life. It all depends on the reasons and frequency of use.

In a small way I get satisfaction out of you saying that I fantisise about porn while with my wife because that tell me that you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. One of the reasons my wife worries about porn is for that reason. And consequently I gave up porn so that she can have peace of mind. But I can tell you that her worries are completely unfounded. I DO NOT think about other people when I'm with her. To me, girls in porns are dirty and "cheap". Contrast that with my wife who is wholesome and smart and irreplaceable. No sir, I definitely enjoy being with my wife and I am with my wife mind and body when I am with her-- and even when I'm not with her.

"So how could you possible view porn and be soo in love with your wife" you might say (I would think most guys would know the answer but you don't seem to). Well, it's because guy's minds are really good about separating the two. Porn can just be "there" and the nakedness and edginess of it can turn me on but there is absolutely no connection at all to what it is that I'm viewing. I've never once wanted to be in a porn. I've never said "I wish that girl were my girlfriend". I've never said "man, she is pretty; wish my wife were like that" "I wish my wife would do that, she doesn't measure up to what I'm seeing". No sir, just doesn't work like that. Porn is porn and wife is a completely separate idea and place in my mind.

If you want to debate the morality of porn, ok, you have the upper hand. But I will not apologize and say that porn makes me thing a certain way which it does not.

ManOfGod calls it a drug. I can only assume that he is talking about illicit drugs, and not medicine. The problems with drugs is that they can take over your life, and ruin your life and lives of people around you. I do not believe that this is the case here. If the use of porn does become such a problem, then I would agree with ManOfGod.

For the original poster I reiterate my view point: porn has no effect on his relationship with you. Look at it as a hobby for him. As with any other hobby, if this hobby does not interfere with his life (devotes too much time to it, cant differentiate between this hobby and his relation with you), then you should just accept it. Even embrace his use of it. Save your fights for something more important.

Once again, I wholeheartely agree with Wasp89

I agree and disagree. I agree that IF she can learn to be cool with it, then he would be happier to have her blessing. But I've really come to the conclusion that women are wired in a way that they can't handle it. It's pretty universal when you ask women why they hate it. It's not like somebody went around and told them why to hate it. They instinctually all seem threatened by it. So as much as we're wired to be able to handle it, if they are wired to not be able to handle it, it's the caring thing to do to go ahead and swear it off. Your wife will be more content and feel more secure and that's important.

However, I will warn her that it's hard to quit viewing porn over night. I probably struggled for about 2 months where I'd agree I wouldn't look at it and then I'd slip up and view it, get caught, hurt her feelings, etc etc. But alass I saw the light and now it's not very difficult at all. It's probably been 3 months or more and I don't feel that I'm missing out. So ssn, give your husband some slack to mess up if he comitts to stop and falls a couple of times.

Just so you know, I've gone to Sexual Anonymous meetings shortly after my wife caught me viewing porn after I said I would not.

What I saw was horrific. Guys that had affairs, guys that spend crazy amounts of money on porn or hot lines, guys that resorted to hookers!!

I was like WOW, this sucks. I told my wife I didn't relate to these people. Personally, from my limited contact with them, I felt their problem was that they did cross the line of getting emotionally involved.

My wife and I went to a strip club once. My wife was being super cool about it and I was proud of her for being soo cool. But she started talking to this young stripper, pretty much interviewing her. Finding out her name, that she doesn't go to college, that she lives with her boyfriend, that she wanted some new furniture... I thought she was getting much too personal as-if she was making friends with this girl (she wasn't trying to make friends; she was just interested in what motivates strippers I think...). And I really didn't like what I was hearing. I felt she didn't understand that the lines should not be blurred. These strippers were objects for sexual entertainment, it's better that you don't know them and "invest" in them as a person. It's better to see it as a business deal. My wife didn't understand what I did about this sort of thing.

Sure enough, as the night progressed, she became very insecure about this particular stripper. She didn't want me looking at her when she danced. She later worried that I was thinking about this girl when we were having sex which was absurd. She pointed out that I still remembered the stripper's name but HELLO, it's because she sat there and asked the girl 100 questions. I had zero interest in that stripper besides that she was a naked girl just like all the other strippers.

Anyway, I chalk that up to us putting ourselves in a bad situation to begin with. We should have not gone to a strip club. But it was clear that she didn't understand what I did which is that porn and real life need to be kept separate and the lines should not be blurred.

Wasp89,

I never said that you thought about the porn or other women while having sex with your wife. What I did say is that you probably fantisize while having sex with her. Pornography does pervert the mind, just because it didn't cause you to go out and have affairs does not mean that it didn't cause issues with you or your marriage.

You went to a SA meetings and saw the damage that it has caused some men. You yourself admit that it was "hard" to stop viewing it and that you'd slip up. Yet, you advocate and say, "go ahead and let your husband do this, it's not that bad". Do you see how ignorant that sounds?

I see what your saying. I do indeed fantacise while having sex but it's fantcies about my wife. I can not lie and say that my high sex drive has not created problems. You may be right.

Indeed, there was a mild quality of addition to the porn. I had viewed it for 5+ years when I was single. I guess the main thing I want to communicate is that women's fears regarding sex are unfounded in the area of liking the porn better than them or imagining porn while sleeping with them. Otherwise, I agree with you. It's still a toss up in my mind if it would be a terrible terrible thing if she gave the green light.

Wasp89,

I am glad that you responded in a positive manner in regards to my thoughts.

I do not mean to be harsh, but pornography -- just like any other drug -- affects different people in different ways. Tobacco, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, ecxtasy, and alcohol are all drugs (to name a few common ones). Some are more addictive and damaging than others. While some people can do them once and walk away and never be addicted, does not mean that the potential for them to cause major harm isn't there. Pornography is the same, it is a drug, and it has a huge potential to destroy lives.

I just hope that you will view it as such and handle it in the same breath as you would any drug that you (in your mind) have determined as harmful.

Luckily, I have sworn off porn many months ago due to it hurting my wife's feelings. And I have been sucessful. So it really shouldn't be a problem in the future.

But I will ponder your thoughts. A little bit, it reminds me of alcohol though. Just because there is the potential of misuse doesn't necessarily mean that every person who drinks will become an alcoholic. People who see themselves developing a problem with it do have the ability to pull back and quit. I think the same could apply to porn if one choose that route. Or there is the method you mention which is to stay away from alcohol and porn due to the possibility that it could get out of hand. Your approach is a safe one but not necessarily the only one. But I will think it over.

I think that I agree that most women who don't understand why a guy would use porn are threatened by it. I think that I must be a very lucky guy that my W is so supportive, and that she is not threatened by it. She even occasionally wants to view it with me; although it is not the centerpiece of our lovemaking, we do view it together 2 or 3 times a year prior to lovemaking.

My love for her because of her acceptance of me is much greater. And no, I don't spend much time or money on it. And I don't go onto chat rooms or talk lines or strip clubs, all of which I'd consider as unhealthy to our relationship. Never had the inclination to do so. Even if I'd wanted to go to strip clubs, and even if she would never find out about it, I'd know about it; and I could not do that to her.

I'd just have SSC, the original poster, have a long talk with her H about it. Either he'd have to be cool with not using it, or she'd be cool with him using it. She'll either have to learn to live it, or him learn without it. But him sneaking about it is in my book as very unacceptable situation, and toxic to their R.

Hey AverageGuy,

I thought it was very interesting in your original post to ssp that you said her husband would be "miserable" if she made him give up porn. Wow. That's a pretty strong emotion -- misery -- for something that's not supposed to be a very big deal don't you think?

Also, take it from someone who knows, it can start out as a once-in-awhile thing and slowly, incidiously become more and more of a problem. Because it happens gradually -- like a lot of drug addictions -- you don't see it creeping up on you until it becomes a crisis.

Also guys, if your wives feelings are less important to you than your porn "hobbies" -- no matter how irrational you think those feelings are -- that, in itself, is a problem.

ssp -- allow me to repeat what I told you in my original post. Do not allow anyone to tell you it's no big deal. If it makes you unhappy, it is a big deal. And the fact that your husband was at one time a heavy user, then lied to you about using at all, is reason enough for concern. Have you read the article on this site about porn, by the way?

--SC

If the use of porn, or of anything, become insidious, then it goes from being a harmless activity to being a harmful activity. It is quite clear that this activity must have limits, be they place, time, money. Just as with any other activity. If SSC's H lets porn ruin his R with SSC, or ruin his life in other ways, then they have a problem.

I don't see a reason why SSC and her H can't discuss it and come together to some rational conclusion. Yes, maybe the best for the couple is for him to give it up. Or maybe she can learn to accept him. But if they can't come up with a rational agreement, and she insists on forbid him using porn and he insists on using it, then they have a problem.

I certainly agree. If W is totally against any activity that H undertakes, be it porn use or playing cards with friends or taking a job with weird hours, then it is the duty of H not to undertake such activities. Doing something that the marriage partner is totally against is a great way of screwing up a marriage.

OK, we can argue all night on whether pornography is dangerous or a drug, but let's wrap it up in the original posters views and her emotional needs.


Should he stop? Absolutely. Stop encouraging her to talk it out so she can be comfortable with him doing it.

"They instinctually all seem threatened by it."

The same way men would be "instinctually threatened" by their wives taking their clothes off for other men. It's the flip side of the same thing. If your wife did that, would you feel she was being faithful and respectful?

"Using" porn is selfish and unloving behavior. Don't put this back on women, as though *we* are the ones with the problem.

"Also guys, if your wives feelings are less important to you than your porn "hobbies" -- no matter how irrational you think those feelings are -- that, in itself, is a problem."

This is another great point and IMO it gets to the essence of why porn upsets women and girls. It goes beyond a lack of empathy; I feel it borders on outright hostility.

Average "guy," you would be more of a *man* if you didn't even ask your wife to be okay with you using porn. How does her being supportive of you looking at porn make you a better person or husband?

Porn use does matter because it has deeper implications about a guy's emotional competence and availability. Defending its use within a relationship just shows a lack of "getting it."

And this: "These strippers were objects for sexual entertainment, it's better that you don't know them and "invest" in them as a person."

This statement makes me shudder. I feel sorry for any woman who would devote her life to a guy who could objectify other human beings this way. Your wife sounds like a nice woman with abysmal judgment.

Guess what - strippers are someone's daughter, someone's sister, someone's mother. Since my breakup with my idiot ex-boyfriend, which happened over strip clubs, I have given lots of money to nonprofits that assist women transition out of the sex industry so that they can lead healthier, more HUMAN lives, because that is what they are - HUMANS. Often they are girls who have been sexually abused or raped, have drug and alcohol problems, etc. I could post a list of the websites for these organizations if you would like, so you can give a little something back to women that so far it sounds like you've only helped to exploit and dehumanize.

BC --

Preach it sistah!

"BC --

Preach it sistah!"

LOL. Thanks, Jaye. It's been nice encountering men who "get it."

Sorry if I went overboard, but I'm tired of the onus being placed on women, ie - either be cool with it, or you are controlling, jealous, nagging, insecure, uptight, etc. And in fairness to men, alot of those criticisms come from other women! I think quite honestly women with low standards are resentful and defensive b/c they know instinctively that what they are willing to put up with *isn't* very nice.

Best to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is NOT the same thing. It is ridiculous that you can even compare the two.

I do not think that wives should be taking off clothes for other men. I don't think that men should go to strip clubs or ogle naked women on stage.

Porn is simply pictures. It is not cheating with other women. There is no emotional attachment. There is no interaction between the model and the man, as there may be in a strip club.

Do you think that if a man goes to see a western that somehow he'll turn into a cowboy, or if he watches 3 Stooges that he want to get hit by a 2x4, or if he watches Bond films that somehow he'll be a debonair spy? No. It is just a fantasy. Don't insult a man's intelligence by insisting that he is not able to separate the two.

Look, should a man be threatened if he wife read a romantic novel, or watches a soppy love story on TV? Your analogy should be:
>>The same way men would be "instinctually threatened" by their wives reading romance novels.... It's the flip side of the same thing. If your wife did that, would you feel she was being faithful and respectful? <<

How would you feel about a man getting all upset about his wife enjoying a good romantic film?

Women tend to watch romantic films, men tend to watch porn. Deal with it.

Don't worry, I did not ask her for a permission to use porn. After dating a while, the subject came up, and we simply discussed it. I admitted to it, without any sense of shame or guilt. She is a wonderful woman and has more than accepted it. There was simply no reason for her to try to control this very personal part of my life.

However, if she'd be extremely upset, I would take her feelings into consideration, and would quit using it. It just makes sense. Continuing to do something that hurts the other person in a relationship is toxic to that relationship. And I think that if I were to become extremely upset that she enjoys romantic movies, then I am sure that she'd swear them off as well.

BC,
You did NOT go overboard. You cut straight to the heart of the matter. In fact, this part deserves an encore presentation:


BINGO!

--SC

But to answer your question: her acceptance of my activities makes me a better spouse, because I know that she is a supportive partner. Her acceptance of my activities makes me realize how wonderful of a person she is. And love her very much for it. And I am supportive of her activities. It makes for a stronger marriage.

Well let me re-write it a bit, and see what you think:

>>Women "using" romantic novels and films is selfish and unloving behavior. ...

Women reading romantic novels or watching romantic films does matter because it has deeper implications about a woman's emotional competence and availability. Defending its use within a relationship just shows a lack of "getting it." <<

What do you think?

That's fine and good, and I agree with you. But the question of SSC was not about strip clubs, but about porn use: SSP's partner was looking at porn on the Internet.

Yes, there is a difference.

Okay Average,

You say:

To follow your reasoning, porn is okay because there's no physical or emotional contact, right? Soooo.... it would be okay if your wife posed for sexually explicit photos as long as she wasn't in the physical proximity of the men looking at those photos? As long as she didn't have any interaction with them? As long as there was no emotional attachment to them? As long as it was "just" pictures?

As BC has pointed out, those pictures are not computer generaged. They are not, as you suggest, simply fantasies. They are pictures and video of REAL HUMAN BEINGS. Whether or not YOU have any attachment to them, they are still people.

Your arrogance is disturbing!

--SC

Oh, excuse me, BC was referring to strippers. But the same can -- AND SHOULD -- be said about people who pose for pornographic pictures or act in x-rated movies!!!!

"Porn is simply pictures."

Okay, then let me be more specific: how would you feel if your wife were showing naked pictures of herself to other men? You never answered that question, except to say that women shouldn't do it.

I am sorry, but I just do not follow your reasoning. Are you implying that looking at porn should be considered the same as staring in porn?

To answer your question: No, I would not want my wife staring in a porn movie. And she would not want me staring in a porn movie.

Just like there is a difference between watching football and playing football, or there is a difference between watching sky diving and participating in sky diving, there is a difference between LOOKING at porn and STARING in porn.

Next question....

Give me a break!

Yes, actors and actresses are real human beings. So what?

Are you suggesting that a guy is unable to tell the difference between the actress and the woman portrayed on the screen? Do you think that guys should think that women cannot differentiate between Frances Reid, Deidre Hall, Drake Hogestyn, and the characters of Alice Horton, Dr. Marlena Evans, and John Black, on Days of Our Lives?

When women watch soap operas they know that it is a fantasy. When guys watch porn, they also know that it is a fantasy.

SC, would you have a problem with porn that is computer generated? Basically, would you have a problem with porn where no actors or actresses took their clothes off?

Just like there is a difference between watching football and playing football, or there is a difference between watching Nascar and driving a Nascar race car, or listening to a boring speech and giving a boring speech, there is a difference between LOOKING at porn and STARING in porn.

Next question.

Oh Gosh, I don't even know where to start on this one. I just want the original poster and those one this thread who see no harm in porn to know a little bit about what porn has done to my marriage.
My H had a porn habit before we were married. At that time it was Hustler and Penthouse and the occasional video, and I heard the same excuses, "It's no bid deal, I only do it every once in a while, it has nothing to do with you," etc.... I was very naive and thought that once we were married and sex was available to him any time, that the porn would stop. I was dead wrong. Less than 2 weeks after we were married I woke up at about 2 a.m. to find myself alone in the bed. I walked into the living room to find my H watching a porn video. I was devastated. This is when the real battle began.
At first, the hurt came from feeling inadequate, like I didn't satisfy him. Also, I have a very petite build and have always been small-busted, so I thought he was dissatisfied with my chest size. I tried to talk to him about it, to tell him how it made me feel, how much it hurt me, and he always said he would "never do it again." Well, he always did.
AFter a while, the next issue of hurt and betrayal came from the fact that no matter how many tears he saw my cry, no matter how often he say how much it hurt me, he would not give up the porn. Then it was the lying, constant lying, more than a decade of being lied to over and over again. Then the porn starting getting much more graphic and deviant, and the disgust came. How could he find this type of stuff a turn-on??? I cried, I begged, and I threatened. I begged him to go to counseling over and over again, but he would not go, and would not give up the porn, or even admit he had a problem.
Finally, he was caught using it at work, and guess what? WIthin an hour he had made a counseling appt. And that is the final part of the hurt. I was never important enough to go to counseling over it, but within and hour of his place of work discovering it, he was in the therapists chair.......
My H says he has not used it in 3 years. I still don;t think he understands the level of damage his addiction did to me. It robbed our marriage of intimacy completely. Anyone who tries to say there is not emotional involvement in using porn is dead wrong. My H would use these always-acccessible women as on emotional release when he was anrgy with me over any number of things, rather than put that emotional energy towards our marriage. It was easier for him to involve himself with them than to involve himself with me. His emotions were most definitely involved.
I tried everything I could, even resorting to doing things in bed that I was not at all comfortable with, in order to take away his excuses for the porn. All that did was cause more emotional damage to me. Now, I have had a short affair this summer, and our marriage is nano-seconds away from divorce. Can I blame my affair on the porn? Of course not, but it did a tremendouse amount of damage to me and my relationship with my H. I could go on, but I think you probably get the point. Those of you who thing porn is a "harmless habit" are very sadly mistaken.

What's the difference? Explain it to me. Seriously. Are YOU implying that you and your wife are ABOVE starring in porn? That you're somehow BETTER than the people who do?



No, I'm suggesting that porn allows you to treat real human beings as objects.



Yes.

What BreakingThread says is sad but true. She is talking about me and I cannot refute any of it. I was exposed to porn around the age of 10 or so. It was always there as I grew in to a man. It was always the easy way out. Why go through the aggrevation of dealing with a wife's issues when the porn never gives you a hassle?


The urge is still there at times, even though I hate it. Thankfully, I have developed ways to rationalize not to give in to the urges.


I hate to use the word "addiction", but at the very least it is a severe character flaw, or maybe a flaw in the thinking processe. It infilitrates every aspect of one's life.


And now, instead of dealing with this issue and other shortcomings I have had as a husband, we also have to deal with my wife's affair. And all of this may turn out to be too much for our marriage to survive through. As much as it pains me, I do know that her affair was at the very least indirectly associated with my porn use.


Regardless, I know in my mind that according to Christian tenents, her affair was no worse than my use of porn. No sin is weighed more heavily than another. I do admit that in my heart, my human emotions, I am still having trouble accepting that equivalency even though in my mind I know it to be true.

My recomendation is to stop using porn entirely. If you know in the darkest recesses of your mind that you cannot do that, get help. Porn may not destroy your life, but why take the chance that it will? Regardless, it is not a healthy activity for a married man, or for a single one for that matter.


I had a wonderful wife who wanted to be with me but I was too pre-occupied with my own concerns and too lazy to interact with her because I knew the porn was always available. Now I have a wife who doesn't know if she wants to be with me any more, doesn't know if she can love me again.

Hindsight is 20/20... and in my case there is no doubt in my mind what path I would take if I had it all to do over again.

Don't mess with that poison.

BT and DI,

Have either of you posted in the infidelity section of this forum? I ask because the story of Mr and Mrs Cookie (my husband and me) is unbelieveably similar to your story. Married 13 years. Two children. His porn use. My Affair. And we have been getting a lot of support and help from some very wise people in that section of the forum. About two months ago, I was sure my marriage would not survive. Now I have hope. My heart goes out to you both. I truely do know how you feel. And Damage Inc, you were very brave to write what you did. Give yourself a high-five!
--SC

AverageGuy is not arrogant, he is ignorant in regards to relationships and pornography. Many of the posts I've ready form him have led me to that conclusion.

He feels his marriage should be a model for all. He says, it's about give & take (compromise). I don't find his posts insightful or helpful in the least bit.

ignorant - Lacking education or knowledge. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge. Unaware or uninformed.

I am curious what brought a "Happily married" guy "since 1993" with "3 kids" to a website such as this?

Hi everyone. My H and I are going through something very similar. My story is posted in "Living Together..." in the "Mens sexual behaviors", around the 5th or 6th page. If you could spare a moment, could some of you read through it. I really could use some advice and support. I'll add more details tomorrow after some of you get to read what I've written already. I would really like to talk to SC and BT. You ladies have been through what I am going through.

To BT, to the original poster, and to other women who do not like their men using porn: do not start doing things in bed to wean him away from porn. A guy's attitude "you either do this or I'll use porn" is simply away of him blackmailing you into doing things you don't want to do. Don't fall for it.

And moreover, it will NOT work.

The problem with your marriage and porn was not that he used porn, but that he did something that you did not approve of, and that he lied about it. He either should have respected your wishes and he should have stopped using it, or you should have accepted him and respective of his activities and be a supporting partner.

Yes, it is simple as that. One partner cannot continue to do things that the other partner is totally against. And the other partner cannot insist that the first partner do things her way without taking his feelings into consideration. It is toxic to the relationship.

If that is the case than your arguments that your dislike of porn because it exploits women, and that it treats women as sex objects, and that they are HUMAN BEINGS, etc. is out the window.

Admit it: you dislike porn because you want to be able to control your spouse, and you view porn as a threat to such control.

Averageguy, sorry but I have to say....of course any person with an inkling of intellegence can see that porn even if computer generated exploits, degrades and disrespects women simply because what it represents IS real women. Sure they may be computer images but they are in the form of women....What a lot of people fail to understand about the point of porn disrespecting women is that it is most definately not just about the 'actresses' .....it is about the messages and ideas that porn produces and sends about what real women are like,. How they behave (or should) how they look (or should) and what their true essence is....
People who choose to pollute their minds with this rubbish should not be suprised when they fail to have relationships of substance with real women.

Listen, there is this web site called marriagebuilders.com which talks about the needs of marriage partners. Read it sometimes. Sex is one of men's top needs. Affection is one of women's needs. Getting satisfaction with a fantasy medium such as film or magazines to satisfy guy's sexual needs is just as valid as a woman getting satisfaction from watching soap operas or romantic novels. Just as porn "objectifies" women as sex objects, so do soap operas "objectify" actors as emotional objects.

Actors get paid to be the subject of our fantasies. So what?

Wrong yet again Average. You must be going for a record. Porn is ugly for many reasons, just ONE of which is what it does to those "in the industry". The post above by "let me just say" is a good response. By the way, you gonna answer my question about why you and your wife don't want to star in your own porn flick?

I do not hold my marriage to be a model for all. As a matter of fact, I stated just the opposite: if the couple can agree that porn is OK, then use it, if not, then do not use it. I do not preach that my views are somehow superior to others. I do not think that banning porn is always the solution as some people.

If you don't find my post helpful, then do not read them. Other may find it useful, even if they disagree with it.

BTW, I welcome criticism of my point of view, but not a personal attack on me.

NEXT question? You still haven't answered the question I've asked you twice now: how would you feel if your wife were posing for the same type of porn you look at?

Never mind. I already know the answer. You'd feel "instinctually threatened" by that behavior, as you are wired to. It *is* the flip side of husbands looking at porn. You don't want to acknowledge that because that would actually force you to admit that your behavior isn't very loving or empathetic. And yes, I'm sure you didn't ask your wife's permission. Do your kids know you have that stuff around or on your computer? If so, did you ask their permission? Because if they are aware of your hobby, this affects them too.

It's interesting that I said, "Using porn has deeper implications for a man's emotional competence and availability." Average guy's response: "Men look at porn. Get over it."

"Get over it?" Regarding emotional competence and availability, you've demonstrated my point.

ManofGod -- Thanks for the heads-up on Average Guy. But I must disagree. I find him to be arrogant as well as ignorant. The term "Sexist Pig" also comes to mind, but I wouldn't want to be so disrespectful. Oops. Did I write that out loud?

ssp -- are you still around? Is any of this helping you?

--SC

ssp,
welcome, i personally dont look at porn.i think it is a waste of time.i equate it to women who read harliquine romance novels.but thats just my opinion.
keith

Ignorant: you do not know anything about me. You have no idea what my educational background is. All you can do is judge my posts. I welcome the criticism of my postings, but not attack on myself.

As far as other question: preventive maintenance. Just as with cars or annual physician visits. I want to be the best husband I can, and this forum helps me learn and discuss things so that I can achieve this goal.

AverageGuy,


This statement shows complete ignorance (Unaware or uninformed) of this website. Meeting each other's emotional needs is the key here, not letting HUBBY or WIFEY go out and get their emotional needs met through other means such as pornography or by themselves.

Because you have a limited knowledge of Pornography (in as how it ONLY affects you and your marriage), you speak ignorantly (lacking knowledge or education) of the subject by giving people your uneducated opinion.

I am not attacking you, I am merely pointing out the obvious that seems to elude you.

Man of gOd is right, nobody is attacking average, only stating the obvious which does clearly escape him.
Average No I am not saying men cant tell the difference between a computer generated image and real life woman but simply that despite the fact we may logcally know 'hey these images are computer generated IT STILL REPRESENT WOMEN. If you have difficulty understanding how abstratct concept and representation effect our mind study some art, read some literature and EDUCATE yourself. If someone puts a computer hgenerated image of someone you love having sexual intercourse with others in the most degrading weay do you then say....hey it doesnt matter ,its not really her, its computer generated????? Imagery is powerful, it sends messages. real or computer generated.
Oh and before I finish, you say that others should not presume because of your experiences...WELL...dont you dare tell me as a woman how porn effects me or the many many thousands of other women who feel the same way. It has destroyed my marriage and I have a close friend whose marriage is broken down because her pathetic litttle hubby couldnt keep his hand off his willy and porn......Sorry guys, but men like average make me understand why sadly many women are losing repect for men (even the decent ones.)

Sorry, but it does not send messages of how women are like. It is just a fantasy. It is not reality. Yes, men know the difference.

No we are not above starring in porn. I would not want to star in porn (and I don’t think that many people would get turned on by me, anyway).

I would not like it if my wife would star in porn, but if she really had a good enough reason (e.g., it would her life long dream), then I’d be supportive. I would be supportive because I respect my wife’s wishes, even when they are in conflict with mine. No, I would not forbid her from staring in porn. It is not my place to dictate what my wife can and cannot do.

The fact that you cant even understand that it send very clear messages shows that you are missing the whole point. If your best arguement is 'no it doesnt send messages then you obviously are not educated in this are. Like I said EDUCATE yourself. Talk to women about how they are treated, how they feel, what the impact of porn has been on them and the way their husbands feel about them. Until you walk a mile in their shoes dont dare tell us that it doesnt send messages. It is a big part of the reason why women are so clearly discriminated against and rtreated as second class people or sex object even with legislation that attempts to stop. It seems that porn may even be the reason why you so arrogantly refuse to even listen to a womans point of view like mine...My H and I ened up in counseling because he used porn and began comparing my body with these women. I am not overwegight I am healthy but it caused him to complian about things like stretch marks or natural breast changes simply because he compared the body of his wife (ho has had 4 children) with 20yr old porn stars. How can you say it is not damaging????? You have no idea. I feel that trying to have a rational discussion with you is futile and for my own peace of mind I will no longer read this thread as it is just too frustrating to try discussing something that has affected me so deeply with someone like you. Best wishes I hope that one day your eyes are opened ...

My opinion of AverageGuy has changed from ignorant to dolt.

I'm done trying to help him understand.

Sexist pig? Sorry, but you are wrong. You do not know anything about me. I have actually written extensively on sexual harassment and ways to combat it. It has actually been translated into other languages. And during my college days I did defaced professors office who was ogling women students which women felt powerless to stop it and the university did nothing about him. There is more.

I simply think that if a guy enjoys porn and the woman he is with is against it, that there are two possibilities: either (1) he should respect her views and stop using it, or (2) she should accept him and be supportive of his activities. The knee-jerk 70’s attitude of “all porn is evil” is simply too narrow-minded.

Why automatically do you discount (2)?

I have. Most women who are secure are not threatened by porn.

It is only those women whose H’s thinks that it is funny to do crass things like comparing his W’s body to a model’s body, who feel threatened by porn. It is simply idiotic, disrespectful and immature of your H to complain about your beautiful body. If I’d have a partner who’d put me through what your husband put you through, I’d feel the same way as you.

Porn has certainly been used as a proof of hostile environment in sexual harassment cases, but I am not aware of any case where porn was used in a sexual discrimination case. Please educate me; give me some cites for Title VII sexual discrimination cases. Or even state level cases. Thanks!

There are a number of reasons why women continue to be discriminated against, but porn is not one of them. We must fight against sexual discrimination wherever it is found, and not waste precious resources against things that have nothing to do with discrimination.

If I am wrong, please send me a link!

Maybe I am all wrong. Please help me understand your point of view. I am serious.

Look, guys have a stronger sexual drive then women. Let say that he wants sexual gratification 5 times a week, she just 2 times. Just how do you propose that their sexual relationship should be like? Should he completely disregard his wife’s personal boundaries and should he force her to have sex with him 5 times a week? Or should they have sex only 2 a week, and he just have his sexual needs unfulfilled?

The answer to me is obvious: they have sex 2 a week, and he takes matter into his own hands 3 times a week. She is getting the level of sex she wants. He is getting the level of sex that he wants. Every one is happy.

Forbidding H porn and thus not providing sexual satisfaction that he needs, is a terrific way of having a frustrated husband. This does not make for a good marriage.

Question: if he wants it 5x a week, and she 2x, what do you then suggest?

I am serious about this. I really want to learn how relationships where there are different levels of sexual drive deal with this issue.

Thanks!

OK, but please let me understand YOU. I really want to.

If the guy's sex drive is much stronger than the woman's sex drive, then what should their sex life be like?

Thanks!

OK, my opinion on the sex drive concern.

Females like sex and enjoy sex as much as men, UNLESS:

1. They feel unattractive
2. They feel disrespected
3. They feel pressured
4. They feel unappreciated
5. They feel unloved
6. They feel uncared for
7. They feel used

I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. Keyword here being "FEEL". And I know that abusive and traumatic experiences (from their past) can cause their sex drive to go down as well, but that too is "FEEL".

If a man is caring, affectionate, and approaches sexual relations from a "loving" and "I want to make you feel good first and foremost" standpoint, then he is much more likely to have a woman who wants to have sex with him as often as he does.

I am not proud of the number of women that I have had sexual relations with by any means, but every single one of them wanted to have sex much more often than I did. What stopped that from happening? Not meeting emotional needs and love busters. The times where we were both happy and having ENs met, we made love daily (sometimes multiple times in the same day).

I'll bet if you poll women who say that they have "great sex lives", you will find that they want it much more often then the men they are with. Simple fact is, women can outlast men and often want it more, more, and more when it's good.

You want to have sex more often with your spouse? Then start with what makes them feel good APART from sex. However, if they feel the slightest bit inclined that you're only doing other things to get laid (i.e. the used thing), you're going to be left wanting.

All I know is that when I look at my two sons, I know that I do not want them to have to deal with the "urges" for porn that I have to deal with. In the past, before I had kids, i could rationalize the use. But when I look at my sons, I know that it is a dangerous thing that has had nothing but negative affects on my life, and I would never want them to be caught by the same trap. And when I look at my daughter, well, I always used to think that the porn actresses were doing what they wanted, making a living how they chose to, but I know that is not the case. I would never, ever want my daughter to have anything to do with porn, PERIOD. And thinking of it in the terms that all those women are somebodies daughter, used to be somebodies little girl, really makes me feel guilty beyond description. My little girl is so precious to me. And those women used to be little girls who were precious to their parents as well.

I know that it is a trap. Unhealthy and powerful. It may provide momentary gratification, but its deleterious long term effects greatly outweigh the shorterm "pleasure". I say "pleasure" because even when I was using it, it's use made me feel empty, or should I say amplified my feelings of emptiness that were already present.

I thought it filled a void in me, but I am now realizing that it falsely filled that void, actually made that void worse. Find out what causes you to have the drive to use porn and fix that underlying problem.

I think that with all of the debating going on my post was overlooked, so here it is again.

And you wonder why I called you a sexist pig??? Look, I'm sorry about the name calling. But honestly, you spew so many stereotypes and generalizations that it's infuriating! Statments like "men want it more" and "men know the difference".

You suggest in your most recent posts that men only use porn because they have stronger sex drives than their wives, and deserve to have their every urge satisfied. Did you read the post yesterday by the broken hearted woman who said she never denied her husband sex, but he used porn anyway???

Let me tell you something else --my sex drive is every bit as strong as my husband's. But there was a period of time, right after the births of each of our children, when I really was too tired and overwhelmed to feel like making love. And that's when porn really became a problem in our marraige. Instead of being a man -- showing compassion and empathy, and exercising some restraint -- my husband turned to porn. Then, when I was ready for sex again, the porn had become such a habit, he had lost interest in me. It was just easier to take care of business himself.

Don't get me wrong. He is a wonderful man. Everybody who's been following my story in the infidelity section of this form has been amazed by him and the way he has worked to save our marriage. If porn can become such a destructive force in the life of a secure, loving, mature man like him -- it can happen to anybody.

It's not the first time porn has had a negative impact on MY LIFE either. My brother spent quite a bit of time looking at smutty magazines right before he decided to start molesting me. I am walking proof that this junk has the power to ruin -- or at the very least, severely damage -- lives! And yes, I find it very arrogant of YOU to tell ME that I just don't like it because I want to control my husband. HOW DARE YOU!

In fact, if he were here right now, he would laugh in your face. He has often commented on how uncontrolling and low-maintenence I am. How supportive of him I have always been. How easygoing and fun I am. The use of porn is different than other activities and hobbies. You are the only one here who doesn't seem to get that.

Hi NeedtoTalk,
I'm glad you're back. I read your post from the other part of the forum. Could I suggest that you create a brand new post with your story so we can get out of this thread? That way, You'll have your own thread with people who go there just to help you.
--SC

SC-Should I post it in this section or in teh general questions section. I've read many people suggest the GQ section since there is more activity.

ntt - You're right. There's more activity in GQ. Go for it! I'll see you over there!

ManofGod, are you SURE you aren't a woman? Because often the things you say sound like something a woman would say. I know lots of girls in my life who have wanted to claim that they have a high sex drive and want it more than the guy and having listened to them and asked them questions about their motivations, what it is about sex that they like.... it turns out that they don't have half the drive they think they do. Basically, it comes down to that they don't REALLY understand the male sex drive. They may be willing to have sex often, but the motivation for it is more emotional. At the core, I think women only have about 20% the true, animal drive that men have for sex itself. The rest of the gratification comes from the emotional closeness, the attension, and exclusivity of it but in all honesty, that desire could be filled for them just as easily with a romantic walk on the beach or a bubble bath that has nothing to do with sex itself.
I have yet to know a woman that felt like she was going crazy and would explode if she couldn't have sex-- to the point where her mind is clouded and she can't think straight and sex is all she can think about. I often explain my drive as the same as having to pee really bad. (side note--women usually get offended by this because they say it's reducing sex to a bodily function). When you have to pee really bad, someone could be trying to talk to you and nothing's sinking in. Your mind can't stop thinking that you need to pee. Same thing with sex for man guys. How many women do you know that can actually say the drive is THAT strong for them?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just interested in talking in terms of truth instead of myths or "catch phrases" that women like to throw out which aren't true.

I agree that masterbation is the answer but I do not agree that porn has to be used. From what I can tell, porn is extremely hurtful to women. In the same way that it's hurtful when guys can't get their sexual need fufilled, there's no reason to have to hurt your wife by using porn when you can masterbate without porn and get satisfied without hurting your wife.

wasp89,

The myth or "old wives tale" is that men have stronger sex drives then women. Especially in their 30s and beyond, where male desire decreases.

Society is the culprit here in terms of "expression" or "really being honest" about it. Society says: If men have a lot of sex, they are STUDS! If women have a lot of sex, they are SLUTS! This starts in the adolecent and sometimes pre-teen years and eventually carries over into adulthood.

Everything that I wrote about in my previous post on "sex drive" is truth.

If the woman you are with wants it less than you, then you are doing something wrong. Whether it be physical or emotional, you are doing something wrong. UNLESS, like I said above, there is a history of abuse or mental illness.

To those who have posted here and have tried talking sense to average......
I will not direct this post to him as I have come to realsie in life there are simply some people who do not want to learn or understand the point of views of other.
But I wanted to say that I feel wasp is right...I see nothing wrong with masterbation but porn is totally unnecessary. As a woman in my 30s I do have a sex drive that equals my h but to me a man who uses porn is THE BIGGEST TURN OFF. This may seem harsh but somewhere in my mind it sends out several messages

1 he has no respect for me
2 he has no respect for any woman.
3 He has little appretiation of a real womans body or mind
4 He is desperate
5 He doesnt deserve me
6 He is immature
7 If he gets off on bodies of women who clearly have never given life and have no obvious signs of aging, pregnancy etc and compares a real womans body negatively to them then maybe he is not a safe person to be with.
8 He's a loser

Whether these things are true o not it is irrelevant, it is how I feel (an many female friends have made similar comments)

Contrary to some comments an insecure woman is the one who feels its disrespectful in her heart but is too scared to stand up and say ' This is crap, you choose' A secure and confident woman states clearly how she feels, respects that he has to make his own choices and respects herself enought to choose to walk if he choses porn.

oh , and before any pro porn guys get on here and say ' but I dont compare my wife/partner with these women' Then why is it the vast majority of porn features women who are flawless and show no signs of life experinec or aging? If us real womens bodies are what men liked then all the mags would have women that looked just like everyday women. (I dont know about you but If I look around the supermarket I dont see many us mommys looking like the porn women, myself included)
When do we get celebrated, respected and admired???????

Yeah, I get your point. Unfortunately, my question was not if women have the same sex drives as men or not. My question clearly was based on the premise that one partner's sex drive is greater then the other partner's. Should the partner who has a higher sex drive then force the other to perform? Or should the one with higher sex drive just be unfulfilled?

Don't buck the question.

If you change the question around, then your answer, although correct, does not help to answer the original question.

Point conceded.

letmejustsay,

Unfortunately there is pornography as you describe as "like everyday women". There is pornography for every taste and perversion that you can imagine and many more that you haven't even thought of. The worst part is it's free and accessible by anyone who I'd consider computer savvy.

I say pornography is the most dangerous drug, because it affects the mind for life (pictures, movies and stories burned into your long term memory). Sure, over time it becomes more difficult to recall them, but still, why put those things in your mind in the first place. I'll tell you why, lack of education about it. There are warnings for every other drug in high school, why not a warning against the use pornography?

Pornography makes up more than 1/2 of the eCommerse done on the internet. Include the free stuff and you can begin to see just how many people are using this drug.

Get real! Just what have you been reading? Yes, it sounds good, politically correct, to say that men and women have the same sex drive. Look, men and women have the same needs! Look, there is therefore no reason for porn! Look, we are the same!

Reality is different. Men have greater sexual need then women. Deal with it. Some people have. For example there is this website called marriagebuilders.com, where Dr. Harley discusses just this issue. see: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3310_sex.html Read it.

If men and women would on average truly have the same sex drive, why, pray dear MoG, would men have such a great need to turn to porn and women would not? And why would we have this discussion in the first place?

Don’t ignore reality for the sake of political correctness.

Sorry, I feel like you're barking up the wrong tree. Just because car magazines don't feature older, rusty cars doesn't mean that guys don't love their rusty car to death but love to browse magazines of the new models for entertainment.

To me, women go wrong by focusing soo much on the physical. Just because we are visual and are attracted to the physical at first doesn't mean that is what REALLY hooks us. It's not long before the attraction is more about her being "the one" and the features of the wife he is familiar with that he loves than the raw beauty. This is the sort of deal where a husband or wife might find a mole on your butt cute where-as no one else would. This is a good thing because when things start sagging and wrikling, the guy is still attracted to his wife. If he were going on raw beauty, maybe he wouldn't. So when you know someone as a person, you can appreciate their raw beauty and them as the person.

The girls in the magazines, you are just looking at their beauty. There is no connection to her as a person nor does the guy wish there to be. She is literally an object. That's all the magazine aims for it to be and that is how the reader likes it. The qualities that men are looking for in wives are not anything which would interest anyone in a magazine format. "On page 8 we have a dedicated mother, funny, takes great care of you when you get sick, makes a mean Apple pie..." "And that scar on her stomouch... that's the beautiful memory from your 3rd one... the c-section. And her love handles really grow on you. They feel very soft and feminine in your hands". See? All those qualities are actually something a husband would look endearingly at about his wife but mean nothing to someone who hasn't been with her for years or has his life invested in/with her. Nope, no good for a magazine. See?

The part that makes the thing all come together is that guys can compartmentalize things really well. He can view porn and not mix it with his wife. The porn is cheap entertainment. The wife is a whole different compartment complete with a wholesome respect and appreciation of her as a companion and person. I PROMISE you, this is possible. But most women can't wrap their minds around the possibility of that because that is not how their mind operates. SO, that is why it's good for men not to view porn-- because it hurts women and women are unable to understand it.

AverageGuy,


The answer to your question is not black and white, as in, partner with the higher sex drive needs to do BLA BLA BLA to meet their need for sexual fulfillment. There is a reason why they are having this problem. We as humans are sexual beings, if one person has a higher "sex drive" as you call it, there is a problem with one or both of them. Though the term "sex drive" is moot imo, because we all SHOULD love sex. If we don't LOVE sex, there are REASONS; get those reasons (problems) resolved either through talking or counseling.

If I were counseling a couple who were having problems with sexual fulfillment, then I would start with the person who had didn't want to have sex as often. I would find out as much as I could about their sexual history. I would ask them how they view sexual interaction with their spouse. How does your spouse make you feel when you don't meet their need for sexual fulfillment. What could your partner do to increase your sex drive? What is your partner not doing right during sex? What could they do better to improve your pleasure of it? And after all that, I would have them fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire along witht the Love Busters one. Then in turn, I would continue with the person and basically go through the same questions and conversations. In the end there would be a clear solution to the problem and I would provide a plan of action to resolve the couple's problem with sexual fulfillment.

Hi Wasp, Thanks for your answer, I do understand what you are saying and in a way you confirmed what I am saying.
I realise that the hook is about more.....My point was that this raw physiacl attraction considers THE ULTIMATE OF BEAUTY TO BE SO DIFFERENT to everyday wives and mothers. If this were not true then there would be no need to compartmentalise. Irealise that this is something we women have no control over (and you may say men either) but consider the ways in which the epitome of beauty has changed throughout the centuries. Years ago a plum, motherly woman WAS the epitome of beauty to men. Now it seems stivck thin, blondes are it........
Porn is bad, not only because women dont like it but mainly because it polllutes mens minds about what true feminine beauty is........

AverageGuy,

I'm glad you finally are starting to read some of the stuff on this site, but you don't seem to be understanding what is written. Dr. Harley is NOT supporting you by saying the following:


This does not mean this is healthy or normal, nor does Dr. Harley say it is. He's just saying that this problem exists. I'm sure that Dr. Harley would provide very similar advice that I am providing to you when counseling couples that are suffering from sexual fulfillment issues.

Thanks for your input.

Are you then saying that if a person has a lower sex drive, then it most likely means that there is something wrong with her?

People have different sex drives. It is OK. I don't see a reason why the person with the lower sex drive, must automatically have something wrong with her. Maybe the problem is with the person who has the higher sex drive.

Implying that the person who has a lower sex drive is in the wrong, and that she needs to be cured in order to have a healthy sexual relationship with the partner, just seems abhorrent, paternalistic, and disrespectful of women.

If you are a counselor, I'd bet that guys like to hear you say: "if a woman does not perform as often as the guy wants, then we need to cure the situation, so that she does." I just wonder how degraded such a woman feels.

Ok, I see what you are saying. We could say the same about beauty magazines, right?

I do agree with you that porn has the ability to pollute. It sometimes does put ideas in guy's heads such as "I wish my wife would do that particular act". All guys are different and some I'm sure use porn without setting boundaries for themselves.

I personally used it with very good separation between reality and fantacy. I never once wanted to date a girl I saw on porn and none of my girlfriends and now wife necessarily look like the girls from the videos/mags. But I promise you that I love every inch of my wife. I would not change anything about her physical appearance.

AverageGuy,


If you polled the teenagers of today, you would find that more and more girls are turning to pornography to meet their need for sexual fulfillment. Especially, due to the secrecy of the internet.

Main stream pornography is geared towards men, but the epidemic of internet pornography is geared towards both. There is something for everyone now.

A great philosopher once said "Be wary of giving advice, because the wise don't need it, and the fools won't heed it." That is why I said that I was done trying to educate you earlier. Yet you drew me back in with your same ignorant mindset about the subject. I am really done with you now.

AverageGuy,

Gah, you keep drawning me back in. :P


Or the guy might feel bad, because he's not performing well, like he should.

If you keep an open mind, I will speak. Otherwise, I am done with you defending pornography.

Wasp, I think it's great you feel that way about your wife. Unfortunately this is not the case with a lot of men. (my h being one of them , constantly comparing and complaining) I know from my girlfriends that I am not alone in this experience...If only more h had the love and attraction and common sense you obviously do not to pollute their minds....I promise all you men this integrity is the biggest turn on for any wife.......
Like ManofGod says Im done speaking with average for as long as he defends porn.....but you other guys on here have made my day and made me realose that real men of integrity still exist....

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that. People can be soo awful and hurtful sometimes-- doing things to others which they would hate done to themselves. I hope your husband will appreciate and respect you in the very near future.

I am NOT defending porn. I am simply saying that if W is upset that H uses porn then then there are two possibilities to resolve this problem: (1) he can respect her wishes and forego porn, or (2) she can learn accept him and be supportive of his activities. Each couple should be able to decide how to deal with this problem in their own way. The knee-jerk reaction that option (1) is always right and option (2) is always wrong is simply too narrowminded.

Some posters expressed their opinion that porn is wrong. Fine. Although I disagree, I respect that. Why can't people who do not like porn respect the opinion of those who think that porn is OK?

And finally, when a poster is upset with her H's use of porn, and asks on this forum what's with "men and their porn", and "why does he betray me by using porn?", I tried to answer it from guy's point of view, trying to assure her that she need not feel threatened. While you may feel that porn is degrading to women and is wrong, her H may not.

The point of this debate is not to reach a conclusion if porn is harmful or not. The point of this debate is to help the original poster understand her H's point of view, so that they may deal with this problem.

You may not like my point of view, and you may even be disgusted with it. Asking for an opinion, and then shooting it down because it does not jive with your opinion does not really serve much of a purpose.

The question is: do you want to know a guy's point of view of this subject so that you may resolve this problem with porn, or do you want to preach that porn is evil?

If you do not try to even understand why a guy would use porn, then how do you want to even begin approaching the spouse who does use porn?

Averageguy, I guess the only question I ever had about porn was how any guy could justify using it if they know it upsets their partner and that as an ABSOLUTE FACT (regardless of petty justifications) IT IS (in the boldest of bold type) TOTALLY AND UTTERLY DISRESPECTFUL: TO ALL WOMEN.

If a partner knows that his behavior is very upsetting to his partner, then I am perplexed why he would continue doing it. If a woman is totally against porn, then I agree that there simply should be no porn in the house. Period. It has to do with respect for her believes and her feelings.

The question as if porn is totally and utterly disrespectful to all women is certainly debatable. We’ve done it above. And we can have more discussions about it. But it DOES NOT MATTER. Whether a woman’s view point is right or wrong is irrelevant. What is relevant is that porn upsets her. He should respect her views, no matter how irrational they are.

But your question of “Why does a guy use porn even though it upsets his partner?” does deserve an answer. It is because the guy underestimates the strength of her feelings about it (“it’s just pictures, big deal...”), and because the woman misunderstands his viewpoint of porn and his reason for using porn (“he is cheating on me with porn, and he wants to sleep with other women, and he does not love me,...”).

Does that answer your question?

Averageguy...
You say 'He should respect her views, no matter how irrational they are.'

sorry matey but your sexist attitudes are sneakin out again


I can see nothing more irrational than a person even questioning the fact that porn is disrespectful to women.....but I wont go there.

May I suggest a(as you requested some web sites for your education????? Particularly interesting is the recent reserach that has demonstrated a decrease in mens attraction to everday women (wives and gf) after viewing even mild forms of porn

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0388_Effects_of_Pornograp.html

Perhaps you may like to visit this one
http://www.no-porn.com/

it has thousands of postings fr0om women whos marriages have been destroyed (or close to destroyed like mine ) from the effects of porn and men who are trying to fight it.

Have you read any feminist literature????(or do you consider this a dirty word.? ) Rememeber feminism is just the radical idea that woman deserve the same as men.....

May I ask where you draw the line If you consider porn harmless is the sex trade harmless also ? What about sex tourism much of which involves the most powerless of girls and women forced into a life of selling themselves for sex.

How can a man look at this crap and then look a women in the eye walking down the street without seeing her as flesh first , human second.
Personally I know that I wont get through a day without receiving lustful looks from men, several of whom I feel look at me like they are undressing me with their eyes. (other women know what I mean).Do you ever look at women like that

Humanity is in dire straits if there is even one man out there who believes this doesnt disrepsct women.

Sorry if I seem 'passionate about but this it is nt an attack on you but simply my frustration that some people freely give their opinions despiute the fact that they are clearly uneducated without a disclaimer on the top.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html

Dr. Harley has answered a question almost exactly like the question posed by the thread starter.

Look letmejustsay, I understand our point of view. It seems that you are really passionate about it.

You go on how evil porn is, calling me a sexist pig, etc. You totally disregard anything that I write. You totally disrespect my point of view. It appears that you consider your viewpoint is right and my viewpoint is wrong. How enlightening!

You ask several questions in your post. Did you mean to answer them, or are you going to disregard my answers to them as well?

The problem is, dear letmejustsay, that there are, for better or for worse, plenty of guys with a “sexist pig attitude” as I am, who do not see anything wrong with porn. Unfortunately, you have to deal with that. Sorry.

If you want to understand such a guy’s point of view, read what I write. You can find it distasteful, but maybe you’ll understand it just exactly why some guys do not see anything wrong with porn.

And if you just want to unload and scream at someone because of the constant sexual harassment which you and encounter everyday (just like my wife today, or my daughters in the near future <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />), then that’s OK too.

Actually, it is a totally different problem. Dr. Harley answered a question of “JS” whose H’s enthusiasm for sex has decreased, and where the woman and her H make love only once or twice a month.

What “SSP” wrote is that their sex is good, but that it bothers her that he “gets off” by looking at pictures other women.

I agree that the only way to resolve JS’s problem is to eliminate porn entirely, this is not the only answer in SSP’s case. SSP’s answer might be as simple as understanding her spouse and supporting his activities. If SSP’s sex with H is good, then what’s the problem?

I just wanted to let everyone here know how enlightening this thread is, I plan to have my H read it and discuss it. I hope it will open some doors for us.

Happy Thanksgiving!

AverageGuy,

Would you ever advise someone saying. I am simply saying that if W is upset that H uses [HEROIN] then there are two possibilities to resolve this problem: (1) he can respect her wishes and forego [HEROIN], or (2) she can learn to accept him and be supportive of his activities.

By your rational, you should be able to insert ANY ACTIVITY in your "so-called" advice and then it is OK if the wife is "SUPPORTIVE". That is why I consider you VERY ignorant of the affects of Pornography. Pornography is not "evil" it is simply a drug. If you don't get that, it doesn't surprise me, many drug users don't think their drug has negative impacts on them or their marriage.

You defend your drug use, because your wife accepts it. <golf clap>.

Is pornography degrading to women? No, the women in the industry really enjoy what they are doing. It is sad. If you say it is degrading to women without saying the same thing with men, that is only a naive perspective on how big pornography has grown and all the different perversions in which it entails. The subject is not about men disrespecting women. It is about the damage that it does to the mind, just like any drug. And most users don't think that they are being damaged, just like all drug users.

To quote ManofGod

'pornography degrading to women? No, the women in the industry really enjoy what they are doing. It is sad. If you say it is degrading to women without saying the same thing with men, that is only a naive perspective on how big pornography has grown and all the different perversions in which it entails'

ManofGod Im not talking about the actresses Im talking about the way porn degrades women in general, wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, friends, colleagues.
I will believe that porn degrade men as a whole in the same way it disrepects women whene the following theings happen (all of which are unlikely given the society we live in)

1 Every newsagency I enter is suddenly filled with nearly naked mens bodies staring at me. Of course these bodies will only be the bodies of approximately 1% of the male popluation and any diversity will be unacceptable.

2.When the women dowm the street sudddenly start evaluating men based on whether they fit the 'ideal' ie like we hear men call women dogs, fat s....., nice rack, blah blah blah

3 When ,mainstream porn suddenly consists of men serving womens every desire however sick, ie when men have objects inserted into every conceivable orifice, when popular porn consists of men having body fluids spewed over their faces???

(of course I would never want to see these things as it would be just as bad to turn the tables and disrespect men in this way)

Of course there is all sorts of bizzarre stuff out there that caters to this but it is the vast MINORITY.

Most porn does not celebrate any diversity of the female body, it does not respect womens as sacred (just as men are too). It does not express the true meaning of sex. It lies , it pollutes minds (which I know you said you agree with) This pollution of minds is a huge constributing factor to women being disrespected. You may say ''Oh but that is the man disrespecting not porn, but in my case the porn was wahat created the false ideas in my H mind leading him to disrespect me. Ironically Im guessing its also porn which created enough disrespect in the man (a complete stranger who walkined up to me last month to tell me I should consider 'spreading it for t. magazine..bizzare.
Personally I dont believe most of the actresses enjoy it either but if you chose to believe this its your choice but when I talk about disrespect Im talking about women and the disrepsct for female sexuality .

Sorry Im not more articulate but I have included a link to an article about the topic. Be WARNED it is explicit in part (because of the nature of this topic I do not feel it is gratuitous.) If you care to read it I would be interested in your feedback.
Heres the link.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/justprudes.htm

Avereage I do not mean to shot you down...I simply must stand up and say what I feel (just ike you) There are many out there who agree (and no doubt many who dont ) I guess if that werent the cae=se then we wouldt be havingthis debate........We are all products of our upbringing, experiences and dna.
Its a wonderful world that we are all so unique

letmejustsay,

I hear your point and side, I really do. You are touching on just one small problem with pornography. I say small, because it is MUCH worse than you seem to touch on or may even realize. The fear I have of your argument is that it is much easier to shoot down, reject and chuckle at. Not from me, but those who choose to defend it and indulge in it.

Yes, all the things you describe as negatives are true, but it is becoming so main-stream and it's acceptance by WOMEN grows more and more everyday.

Women like looking at women NOW! They enjoy the sexuality of a woman; the curves, the softness, the beauty. They may not fantasize in the way men do, but they do admire it. Female sexuality sells to everyone, not just men. That is why advertisements use it. This is just another area of pornography in my opinion. And it is accepted by most.

I will say, thank God for Janet Jackson's breast during the Super Bowl half-time show a couple of years ago. That seemed to tone down sexuality in ads somewhat, but it has not gone away by any means either. The government has stepped in to help regulate that more now, but it is still an uphill battle that I don't see getting easier as time goes on. We will soon forget and things will become more and more taboo and explicit again.

I just hope that you know that I wasn't trying to knock you. I think we are on the same side of the fence. I just want you (and others) to understand that it goes way beyond the demeaning of women.

ManofGod You are absolutely rightin all you have said.
It does go beyond. It very complex and is becoming more and more pervasive as it grows in acceptance. I suppose that the only thing to do is to live our own lives according to our values and to hold our heads up and defend what we believe in. Best wishes....

MoG, I am sorry, but I just don't understand you.

One should NOT accept nor support spouse's destructive habits such as heroin use. Heroin will cost the user extraordinary amounts of money, more then he can afford. Heroin will make it less likely for the user to hold a job. Heroin will cause the user trouble with the law. Heroine will be destructive to the user's health, both physical and mental. Heroin will be destructive to user's life, family, friends, and society in general. There are many other problems that the use of heroin causes. And that's why a one should NOT support spouse's heroin use.

If porn were as destructive as heroin, then I'd agree with you. But it is simply silly that in majority of cases porn causes any of the above problems. Read SSP's, the original poster's question; she does not mention any such problems.

Look, a guy simply spends 5 to 10 minutes a couple of times a week looking at porn. He spends a couple of bucks a month on it. He simply let's off steam, which decreases his sexual tension, so that he can go on with his life. As a matter of fact, if a guy has a much greater sex drive then the women, I see the use of porn on his part as a very BENEFICIAL activity.

If a guy does have a stronger sexual drive then she does, he has several options:
(1) force his wife to submit to him more often, and have her serve him sexually more then she wants to;
(2) be sexually unfulfilled and frustrated, resent wife's lack of low sexual drive, wonder if he should have married her in the first place, and even wonder if he can get a little side action going; or
(3) devote 10 minutes couple of times a week to porn and get on with his life.
Which of these 3 options is the best for him? Which of these three options is best for her?

Fair enough. Perhaps my mind is so polluted by porn that I am blind to problems that it causes, as you suggest. I don't think so, but how do I know?

I took a look at the sites that letmejustsay recommended. I took the test on www.no-porn.com to see if I am a "porn addict". Out of the some 30 questions, I answered affirmatively only to one. To each of the other 30 questions I answered NO. No, it does not prevent me from having a loving relationship with my wife. No, I do not use porn and neglect the kids when my wife is out. No, I do not dig through other people's trash looking for porn.... Sorry, according to the site, I am NOT a porn addict.

If someone is sick enough to neglect his kids because of porn, then yes, porn should be eliminated from his life. But in my case, SSP's husband's case, and the vast majority of guys, porn is NOT a destructive force. Don't make it a bigger problem for SSP then it really is. You are needlessly freaking SSP and women like her out.

If my wife would have the same unyielding attitude towards porn as, for example, letmejustsay has, but otherwise be the same wonderful wife that she is, then it would be obvious that I have a choice to make if I wanted to stay with her:
(1) disrespect her views, continue to use porn, and simply hide it from her; or
(2) respect her views, no matter how extremist and irrational they appear to me, be somewhat resentful, and discontinue to use porn.
I'd say that I would chose (2). The trust between us, and support for each other is simply much more important then porn.

AverageGuy,


If you truly want to test this, then stop using Pornography for three months. Start a journal (even computer based in Notepad would work). Every day that you feel a draw to return to use it, write it down and describe the feeling you have (is it a strong desire, a mild desire, etc). Also, write about your emotional state at the time. Were you just horny, were you rejected by your wife for sex, bad day at work, good day at work, etc? Log and note each sexual experience with your wife. Did you fantasize about anything pornographic while making love to your wife? Did you imagine your wife or yourself doing anything pornographic or with anyone other than just you two? Also, log and note each time you masterbated. Did you fantasize about anything other than you and your wife, was it pornographic in any way?

If you slip up and use pornography during the three months, write about it. Why was the draw so strong as to pull you back in? What was your emotional state at the time?

At the end of this three month period, you will have a better assessment of yourself.

Letmejustsay, I understood (though did not agree with) your posting up to this point. But you totally lost me here.

Are you serious with such arguments? Of course porn does not celebrate diversity. Of course porn does not express the true meaning of sex. What do you think porn is, a documentary?

Porn is a fantasy. Guys like to look at women who they consider sexually attractive. They want to see not average body. They want to see the ideal body. They don't want to see diverse body. What would be the point? The porn industry undoubtedly looks for women not who are diverse or average, but who are as sexy to most guys as possible. You know, slender, big boobs, tight [censored], etc. Whatever at the time is considered ideal.

(Aside: Now, some guys get off with women with huge boobs, or college age waifs, or women over 40, or grossly overweighed women, or women of particular race or hair color. So there is diversity in porn, but I don’t think that this is what you were writing about, right? You were complaining that most women in porn are "beautiful", and not representative of the general population, right?)

But porn industry is not the only one which selects actors and actresses on the basis of their looks. ALL of the entertainment industry does this. People want to see beautiful looking models on runways. People want to see good looking people on shows like "Friends" or "Sex in the City" or "Days of our Lives". People want to see a good looking actor cast as James Bond to battle the next villain, and not some pudgy, balding, average or "diverse" man.

Porn films are NOT documentaries. They are fantasies. Complaining that porn does not accurately portray women is as ludicrous as complaining that "Star Wars" does not accurately portray the space program.

Thanks for the link, letmejustsay. I've read it, and I came to the conclusion that there are much better sources of arguments of why porn is evil.

Jensen primarily argues that porn is bad, because of the victimization of women in the porn industry. That women do not have a realistic economic choice. That such women are simply sex objects.

This is pretty weak argument. If a woman is an adult and she chooses to go into porn, then that's her choice. She signs a contract, and gets paid for it. She is the same as any other worker. We all go to work to make money. We all are simply wh0res who do what our employer pays us to do. She is exploited for her body, same as other workers are exploited for their mind or strong back.

Your argument, that porn is evil because it has a negative effect on all women, every day, is much more persuasive.

(BTW, from the introduction to his article, and from his portrayal of himself crying in the embrace of his "friend" Miguel in a Las Vegas bar, I was wondering what his problem was. I looked at his other articles, and then it hit me. Did you happen to read on why Thanksgiving is evil, and why the empire called USA should be destroyed? If you want to argue about evils of porn, you really should find a better writer; this loony guy does nothing for your side.)

Mog-
"Women like looking at women NOW! They enjoy the sexuality of a woman; the curves, the softness, the beauty. They may not fantasize in the way men do, but they do admire it. Female sexuality sells to everyone, not just men. That is why advertisements use it. This is just another area of pornography in my opinion. And it is accepted by most."

I'd like to throw a curveball into this debate. Recently, a relative of my H went through a D after his W had an A with another woman. This couple addmittedly watch porn and occasionally went to strip clubs together. She was okay with his use of porn. Was she born to be attracted to woman or did an unfulfilled EN along with what MoG has said above draw her to have an A with a woman?

needtotalk,

Perversion of the mind indirectly caused her to have an A with another woman. I say indirectly, because nearly everything is about "choice".

I'd be curious to know if this affair was just to meet her need for "Sexual Fulfillment" which obviously has been perverted by the porn and strip clubs. Or is there problems in the marriage as well.

Either way, this is an example of playing with fire and then getting burned by it.

Hi all, needtosay , sorry to hear about this couple, very sad, I agree with MoG that this is a case of playing with fire.
Average, Thanks for taking the time to check out some of these links. I didnt expect to ''convert' you to my way of thinking simply to open the path for other Povs. Anyway, its great for you that your naot an addict (as you say. Great for you that your wife is fine with it all. So all I ask now is what you do in your life to contribute to the fair and equal treatment of women. AIf porn is OK then is there any problem with your daughters using it??????After all is just a little 5 to 10 minutes a week that guys use it? Right.
Are you happy to leave your w with a man who consistemntly views porn? say on a weekend work conference. It seems that you in no way believe it contributes to men viewing women as 'meat'
(I havenet read all the Jensen articles but will go back and check them out.....Im here in Australia so thankgiving is not something we celebrate but I will be interested to have a look.)
Im glad that you can at least see some sense in the concept that porn is degrading to women as a whole.
In relation to the choices made by those in porn you must remember these choices are made within a context. In this case the context of a society where porn, the sex trade and modelling are the only industries where women can earn the same as men. Is it also a choice that young girls in Singapore make. NO it all about context.

It is probably not worth trying to ask a man who view porn to understand the choices women make and the ways in which society influences them.

Sure porn is not about diversity......I understand that all media is not...So why encourage it??????? By viewing this stuff you become part of it. I guess the question is to YOU want to be part of the problem or the solution???????

Personally I believe that a defeatist attitude of 'well thats the way the world is, thats what men like' is not good enough .

Yeah sure Im taking the moral highground, being idealist blah blah blah, but I wont be part of something that denegrates half the poplulation

This whole arguement about men needing this is rubbish...so often we see the old 'oh but its better he uses porn than has an affair' but are you really saying men are so incapable of integrity, honesty and faithfulness that it must be one or the other????Personally I reall would hope thats not true as most men I know are able to rise above this menatlity????

Just one extra question Average. Are you really trying to tell me that given a choice your wife would prefer a husband who shares his sexuality lusting over women in a glossy mag (for those 5-10 minutes a week) or would she prefer a husband who exclusively shares his sexuality with her and saves his lust for her.
Despite the fact she may say it doesnt worry her but given the honest choice which would she prefer.

My relationship with my husband has changed dramtically since he gave it up and we started counseling. The counselor told us they are seeing more and more cases with problems like ours especially since the internet became so available. My h says its like having his eyes opened after living in a fog.....he respects me much more now and our marriage has improved incredibly. We now have what I would consider 'true intimacy'.
In the days of his 5 -10 minutes a week of porn things were different. Like the counselor said 'many couples mistake the eroticism created by porn for intimacy, where in fact it decreases the true intimacy. We have found that our new found intimacy has made our relationship much closer and more erotic too. In fact he now says he cant understand how any man with a loving wife would even bother with porn??????

Does your 5 - 10 minutes a week of porn make your wife feel like the most important , respected beautiful women in the world to you????? ASK HER

You tell me: I’ve ordered and supervised the implementation of sexual harassment policies (it was a proactive not a reactive implementation). My writings on solving sexual harassment problems have been picked up by a number of sources (if you were to Google my real name, it would be in the top few dozen entries), and has been translated into other languages. In college, in view of total lack of ability of the otherwise progressive school stopping filthy leering by a certain professor, in my frustration I defaced the prof’s door. There is more.

No, I don’t deserve a medal, nor do you see my name in the forefront of battle for women’s rights. No, my employment does not involve investigating or punishing unfair or unequal treatment of women. But everyday I do work for fair and equal treatment of women. After all, my wife is a woman, and my 2 daughters will one day have to live in this world as women.

Now, tell me, what have YOU done in your life to contribute to the fair and equal treatment of women?

Yes, yes, their choices are made within a context of their surroundings. Just as you are exploited in work for your mind or strong back, so are women in porn exploited for their assets. We all have to make choices about our employment.

Stating that women are incapable of making money outside of porn, that the only thing that women can do in our society is modeling or sex trade is extremely demeaning to women. It is exactly this kind of paternalistic attitude, this kind of “oh-my--the-women-must-be-protected” attitude that has kept women down. It is offensive to all women who have achieved great strides in all areas of employment.

If a guy would want to star in a porn film, would you complain that he would have no other choice because of a “context”? No, you’d say: that’s his choice. Maybe you would even blame him for contributing to the smut which you dislike so much. So why do you think that women are some pathetic creatures who cannot take care of their employment? Why the double standard? Why are you so sexist?

(BTW, your note that women make as much money in porn as men is totally off base. Supposedly a good actress in porn makes 50 times the amount of a good actor. Guess why.)

If a woman enters the porn business, than that’s her choice. Who are you to criticize her choice of employment? Who are you to treat her as a second class citizen?

Very good average.....but why stop there why support porn when you clearly state that you see it (at least in some way ) demeans women???

I find it interesting that they asked a man to create a anti discrimination policy. (were any women aware that the person creating policies that effect them secretly reads porn??? How do you think that would make them feel. Personally I dont want any guy who thinks about women this way creating policies affecting the lives of me, my daughters or women I know....


What have I done......Well

Im a woman with 4 children (2 boys 2 girls,) I raise them all according to good honest values of equality and respect for all humanity...
I work outside the home teaching...In this I try to instill the same values of equity and respect for diversity , (whether this be gender, race, ability, sexual preference.
I support the right of women everywhere to make the choice of working either in the home or outside of it.

I have completed 7 years of study at university to better educate myself in the areas of education, gender equity and Indigineous issues. (and yes I have studies the topic of porn quite extensively)

I have made one television appearance here in Aus to talk about the some aspects of our legal system negatively impacting the lives of women in situations of domestic violence.

BUT more important than any of this is that I am prepared to challenge some of the many issues still affecting women around the world...

You see the difference between you and I is that your views support maintaining the status quo, mine support change.Change to our attitudes, change to our behaviours. This is sure to rock the boats of those who have throughout history enjoyed the many advantages of the current system....in this case white middle class men

PS have you asked your wife in what way she feel porn enriches her marriage to you

and are you comfortable for
a) your daughters to appear in these mags (if they choice )

b) for them to know you indulge in this rubbish????

I notice these are questions you have not as yet addressed

What are you talking about? What problem? If a viewer watches a film, the viewer wants to see nice actors and actresses. The viewer is NOT interested in some sort of a diversity. The viewer is interested in idealism. That’s what fantasy films are about, be they James Bond films, TV soap operas, or porn.

Films are NOT accurate representation of reality. They are NOT supposed to be. What would be the point? People live in a reality. They mentally escape into the world of make belief. If film would be just a true representation of reality, the viewer would say: hey this is completely as reality, so I don’t really need to watch it.

Out of curiosity, would you be happy if your husband viewed porn where there are women of all shapes, colors and sizes? Or would you be just as upset as if he viewed porn where there are only the “ideal” women?

What “anti-discrimination” policy? It was a sexual harassment policy. There is a big difference. Really. Ask your favorite attorney or human resources person.

And there was no “they”. Read my post again. "THEY" did not ask me to create sexual harassment policy. I was the one who asked that it be prepared. Other people wrote it and implemented it. I simply ordered it, devoted sufficient resources to it, and oversaw that it be carried out within legal guidelines and appropriate regulations.

Any moron can prepare such a policy. But it is a person who really believes in women’s rights that pro-actively seeks to institute such a policy.

You still don’t get it, do you? Don’t you understand how strong a man’s sex drive can be? Don’t you read the posts on MB? Have you not learned anything?

Look, men in general have a stronger sexual drive then women. Their need for sexual satisfaction is stronger then women’s. Deal with it.

Men do NOT see porn as dishonest or unfaithful. They see it as healthy release. They use porn for the same type of emotional satisfaction as women who read romantic novels or watch soap operas.

If a guy wants sex 5x per week and she 2x, then what do you suggest? That she submit to him, and serve him even if she does not want to? Yeah, that’ll work. Forcing a woman to sex will do wonders for their marriage, right?

Or that he just be a big boy, and suppress his sexual urges until she is ready? Yeah, that’ll work. Having a sexually unfulfilled and sexually frustrated man will do wonders for their marriage, right?

Or that he simply takes a matter into his own hands, and have his sexual tension released within 10 minutes a go on with his life instead of being preoccupied with sex until he can get some from his W.

If there is difference in sexual drive, then porn is actually VERY beneficial. What else do you suggest? I am really curious!

Average Guy,


First off, I would suggest you find out why you are unable to please your wife enough for her to want to make love to you more often.

Secondly, you challenged me earlier, I responded and you tucked your tail between your legs and started attacking the women. Are you not up for the three month challenge that I presented for you? Are you afraid that you would have to come back here and say that I was right?

Leave the ladies alone who are in pain and hurting over what Pornography has done to their lives. Does it really make you feel better to bash them and make their pain worse with your ignorant banter? Because that is all you are really doing. Do you speak that way to your wife as well when you disagree with her?

Oh, I know what she would say. I’ve asked her when the subject first came up.

If she’d ask me not to use porn, then she’d have a choice to make. She either have to drastically increase the amount of sex with me, (say, from 2 to 5/week), or she’d have a very lusty, horny and sexually frustrated guy on her hands who could not do anything except think about sex. Neither is a good prospect for a wonderful marriage.

And even if she did want to increase the amount of sex with me, I just could not force her to do that to herself. I’d loose all respect for myself. What kind of a guy would have sex with a wife if she does not get anything out of it? She would then be no more than a masturbation aid. It would simply churn my stomach.

My W fully supports me using it. And yes, she is a feminist, and she understands my sex drive. It indeed is very beneficial for our relationship.

Average WHAT ARE you talking about . I NEVER said that this was all these women could do???or made any sexist comments . If you care to read the post. What I said is That these professions ar the only ones in which womens earning equal or better mens (on average) Hopefully you understand statistics


'Any moron can prepare such a policy. But it is a person who really believes in women’s rights that pro-actively seeks to institute such a policy'

Yes I must say I am now convinced any moron could but why would one such moraon care if they then go home to watch porn . That is the question???

'You still don’t get it, do you? Don’t you understand how strong a man’s sex drive can be? Don’t you read the posts on MB? Have you not learned anything?'

No its obviously you who doesnt realise how strong a womans sex drive can be when she is with a real man....a man who is not sleazily reading his porn....


Ohhhhhh, I get it , of course how could YOU possibly have ever had this opportunity????

We’ve been through this once already. You cannot seem to understand the basic premise of my question: we have different sexual drives! This is totally consistent with the teachings on this site. What is it that you don’t get?

It would be great if we had the same sex drive. It would be great if we can find the time to the extra 3 sessions a week. But we live in a real world with different needs, with time limitations, with schedules to keep.

There is nothing wrong with having a lower sex drive. I fully support her. I will NOT try to force her to have sex with me, because you think that I am doing something wrong, or because you think that there is something wrong with her. Why can’t you just accept it that different people have different sexual needs?

I ask you, MoG, once again: if you forbid porn to a guy who has a higher sexual drive then she does, does she have to submit to him, or does he have simply be sexually frustrated?

ManofGod Thankyou for defending those of us who have been hurt by pornography...you are a true gentleman and your wife is one lucky woman.
(Incidently my husband has been reading this thread and whilst he is appauled by averages comments saying they remind him of his old porn fog he says you are an inspiration)

'And even if she did want to increase the amount of sex with me, I just could not force her to do that to herself. I’d loose all respect for myself. What kind of a guy would have sex with a wife if she does not get anything out of it? She would then be no more than a masturbation aid. It would simply churn my stomach'

So long as you wife is happy for you to use other women as your masterbation aid then I gues you have no problem......YET

Sorry that I don’t respond to all your questions, all your challenges.

I simply do not understand your challenge. Are you saying that I could or that I could NOT use porn for 3 months? Are you saying that you want to prove that I can be weaned from porn and that I don’t need porn, or that I am addicted to porn?

What would you be right about?

Once again Average you support porn on the premise of your arguement that 'men have higher sex drives.....how the ****** do you know what my sex drive is, or every other woman. (Oh sorry I forgot your the expert, drawing up sexual harassment policies and all. )

It does not suprise me that every woman YOU have been with has a lower sex drive than you, afterall I would too given your extracurricular activities. Your wife happiness at your consistent fantaising about other women may suggest insecurity issues but it seems like you are in control enough for the both of you anyway. Its kind of sad that you have convinved her porn is necessary for you masterbation....Here in Aus we have a name for people who do what you do. But rather than label you this name I think I will once again for the final time excuse myself from addressing you. Whilst at one point I re entered it thinking we may have some intellegent dialogue I have come to realise that people like you and I are on a different wavelengths...Only one thing has become clear to me, when you defend porn and talk about your wife liking it, and the way you speak to me and about other women....That regardless of what you say

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT FOR ANY WOMAN WHATSOEVER

Oooh, so it has come to this, eh? Challenging my manhood? Telling me that I am not a real man because I don’t or can’t satisfy my W? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, all is fair in love and war, and now internet postings.

Look, letmejustsay, for all your postings about diversity, you certainly do not celebrate diversity in sexual drive. Everyone should have equal emotional needs, right? And if the guy’s need is different than woman’s than there must be something wrong with either her, or with his technique, right?

The fact that man’s sexual needs are stronger than woman’s is actually pretty well accepted. As a matter of fact, you may want to read the introduction to the marriagebuilders web site. If you think that it is not, you may want to write to Dr. Harley, and set him straight.

No matter how unfair it seems, no matter how it fails to conform with your naïve idealistic world of how things should be, you have to address the fact that on average, men simply have stronger sexual drive then women. Deal with it.

I don't use other women. I simply use images of other women. Yes there is a difference.

And yes, there is no problem. Just like with the vast majority of guys who use porn. Never was, and never will be.

Nice corresponding with you, I gotta go, ....

I do not challenge your manhood Average (you are most surely male) only your integrity and attractiveness as a sexual partner for any educated woman. But take care I think you and I best end this conversation.....Ill even let you have the last word...despite the fact that according to your stereotypical view of men and women that should be my perogotive lol

LMJS signing off for a couple of stiff drinks and a hot night with my 'now non porn viewing h'....XXXX

Average Guy,

A man's sex drive (as you call it) is NOT much stronger than a woman's.

Dr. Harley says that generally a man has a "much greater need for sex", meaning that men seem to want sex more often. He even clearly says that it is sometimes the woman. If you've ever read any of his books, you'd also understand he goes into HOW to help increase the other partner's interest in sexual fulfillment.

However, you FAIL to even understand or learn why there is a difference in sex drive. It is not genetics as you may think. It is generally, because the woman (or man) is NOT satisfied with their sex life. That the time to do it is NOT worth the emotional and physical dissatisfaction that s/he receives from it or that it doesn't meet his/her expectations of the encounter.

I guarentee that ANY and EVERY woman that I would have an intimate and loving relationship with would want to have sex with me everyday. This is not about being arrogant, this is about being knowledgable and aware of the WHYs.

You are completely ignorant about the "WHYs" of both "sexual drive" (as you call it) and pornography and it's impact on the mind.

My three month challenge was pretty detailed about what it would do for you. I really don't care if you take it or not, but you asked for something that could give you self-awareness and I did.

You really have a lot of nerve to try to tell me what was wrong with my marriage. What do you think makes you such an expert?? My H's pornography was a compulsion, an addiction, and it was way more than him doing something I didn't want him to do. It robbed our marriage of all intimacy because he was seeking emotional and sexual fulfillment with the porn. You are naive at best if you think this type of issue in a marriage can be described in the simple terms you used.

Goodness,

I do miss those days before computers and VCRs when pornography was something you downloaded on the hard drive of your brain!

Back around 1985 My husband received two Playboy magazines in a Christmas grab bag at work. He thought they were so racey he hid them on the top shelf of the closet so the kids wouldn't find them. We forgot they were still there until my 17 years old found them the other day.

Now the crap that comes over network television before 9 PM is sexier than those magazines.

It was on this forum that I first learned of pornography addictions. I heard first-hand from the women posters whose husbands had become addicted to pornography. One poor woman said her husband actually purchased a plastic vagina. She had to beg him to have sex with her.

What has changed and why? Is the pornography more interactive? Truly, how big is the problem? What are the statistics? Are there tens of thousands of men out there who use pornography with little or no adverse impact on their marriages?

We wives used to think the looks of the average centerfold or porn star as icing on a cardboard cake. If our husbands were going to look at two dimensional images of something they couldn't have, they cared about every little detail. But when our men were having real sex with a real woman those things were not important.

I think most men are practical. The wife they have is better than the woman they don't have. To be blunt, I always believed that it was not what I 'had' but how I displayed it--and what I said and did to make my husband lust after me. At age 53, this is still serving me well.

Walk down any street in America and look at the married women. How many are not up to some pornographic standard of beauty? About 99%? How many of husbands use pornography of some kind and to some extent? 80%? 50%? It would seem to me that if pornography addictions were culturally systemic, there would be a woman's revolt to make Prohibition look life child's play.

I don't know nor do I care what your sex drive is. But I do know that generally men's' sex drive is stronger then women's'. Now, you may chose to ignore it, but I think that most reasonable people (whether they like or hate porn) would agree with that premise.

Look at the original posters question. She states that " [color:"green"] As my situation in not as huge as some of the other posts I have read, it still upsets me. Today I found out that my husband of 1 year looks at porn on the internet..... Our sex life is good. He doesnt complain and says that its not about that. He says he loves me, loves how I look, and loves our sex life. He says he does it out of boredom or because he needs to relieve stress when im not there..... I am very hurt by this, and it makes me feel like he betrayed me. ... And for the men out there, is this normal, or should I be worried? I am scared it will develope into more.[/color]"

She wants to know what she can do. You go on how porn is evil and how it destroyed thousands of marriages (e.g., 19:10, 22 Nov 2005). What you are doing is scaring the daylights out of the original poster, creating problems where there may not be any. This is NOT very helpful. Her description of her situation is NOT like your description of your situation.

My view is, yes, she can battle him on this issue, but that there is another option: although she may dislike porn, it may be simpler just to let him use it on his own time. She stated that it does NOT effect their sex life. He may very well be using porn as she suggests: that he does it out of boredom, or when he wants to relieve stress when she is not there. I wrote that she need not be threatened by it, and that it is normal for some guys to use porn. He simply may be one of millions of guys who have a healthy sexual relationship with his wife, instead of the thousands of guys who blame porn on all their ills in their relationship. She may simply explore the second option. That's all that I am saying.

Hi Breaking thread., Yes he does have a nerve telling those of us directly affected by this issue all about our marriages.......Like you it robbed us of our intimacy, taught my h total disrespect for the scarednedd of his partner and sexuality. It was a huge intimacy destryer. This makes sense as our couselor told us that porn us contributes to intimacy problems and appeals most to those with pre existing issues in this area. So I guess its a catch 22.
Pieta I agree with you, This problem is really only starting to esculate to the seriousness of some situation over the last few year. This is attensted to by the increasing post and couselors discussing the issue. Whilst there may not be a revolt for years.. I believe that whilst once it was enough to be an everyday wife and display it in the best possible way. The increased porn access and severity of it really is changing that within a lot of marriages. I see that the most deeply effected will probably those into the near future. Marriages that do not involve weekly (5-10 minutes or more a week) are unlikely to be impoacted. Your husbands disinerest in this pretty much indicates it will not become a problem within your marriage. Unfortunately for many of us our husbands are VERY interested. So much in fact that they are feeling regret that they are marraid to mere mortal women who bodies will change as they age and have pregnancies.


My expression of my views and sharing of experience is genuine and I have (as many will see ) laid myself open to further abuse by a certain menmber who continues to use chauvanistic views to invalidate my feelings.

Average
The OP has a right to know the possibilities that porn can lead to. If you dont like the fact of what many women state about the use of pornograpghy within THEIR marriages Sorry but thats your problem....

You have yet to tell me in what ways porn makes your wife happier except to state that you will be insatiable???? (hangon cant you masterbate without porn????Gee maybe you should see someone about that addiction????)

Average, I understand that looking at porn makes you feel powerful, I understad that attacking me and any other woman who challenges your god given right to denegrate half the poulation is necessary for you to maintain this feeling of power.

How your wife correlates your using of images other women for your sexual gratification with a fulfilling and commited marriage is beyond me.

Clearly you have MAJOR issues with your masculainity and women........Any man who feel that looking at naked women he does not even know having all manner of strange and persverse things done to them and really really believes they enjoy it (and then defends this behaviour) must.


The truth is that no matter how you justify your use of porn YOU are the one missing out on a relationship of TOTAL commitment to your partner. Incidently you are also missing out on so much you could learn from women if only you were prepared to listen

Sadly I am very aware that I receive your next attack shortly hereafter, after all Im a woman with an opinion that is different than yours and in your world that is obviously unacceptable.

Boy are we in big trouble when people like you consider themselves advocates of gender equality.

Sorry, letmejustsay, this is hogwash. I HAVE validated your feelings about this subject.

I wrote: "Look, letmejustsay, I understand your point of view. It seems that you are really passionate about it." (24 Nov 2005, 9:03). This certainly was validation.

I wrote: "letmejustsay, I understood (though did not agree with) your posting..." (25 Nov 2005, 11:45) Another validation.

I even wrote: "Your argument, that porn is evil because it has a negative effect on all women, every day, is much more persuasive" (25 Nov 2005, 12:47) Just how much more validation do you need? What more can I say to validate your view point and your feelings?

I also validated your point of view in other postings. See, for example my postings on the support of battle against sexual discrimination (22 Nov 2005, 20:31). I have stated that "if a woman is totally against porn, then I agree that there simply should be no porn in the house. Period.", a position which is in line with your feelings (my posting 24 Nov 2005, 2:50). I expanded on this view point elsewhere (22 Nov 2005, 10:18)

How can you state that I have not validated your feelings?

However, it is you, letmejustsay, who has not validated MY feelings. You totally disregarded anything that I posted.

It is you who wrote that I lack "an inkling of intelligence" (your post, 22 Nov 2005, 16:33).

It is you who wrote "don't you dare tell me as a women how porn effects me...." (your post 22 Nov 2005, 19:10). That certainly did not validate my view point. You told me to that I essentially had no right as a man to speak on the subject. And you CALL ME SEXIST? Look in the mirror to see a person of double standards.

It is you who stated that men like me makes you "understand why many women are loosing respect for men" (your post, 22 Nov 2005, 19:10)

It is you who wrote that I pretty much have no right to speak on this issue to begin with: "don't you dare it does not tell us a messages." (your post 22 Nov 2005, 19:43). Further "you have no idea" And "I feel that trying to have a rational discussion with you is futile .." Do you call that validation of my feelings and of my views?

Not only did you disrespect me, but you also disrespected by W, stating that she is a "insecure woman" who is "too scared to stand up" to me.

It is you who stated that "I am done speaking with average as long as he defends porn." (23 Nov 2005, 17:55) Yeah, I'll respect his views as long as his views don’t conflict with mine. Nice validation, indeed!

It is you who writes me a series of questions of my views, and then simply attacks them, instead of considering them (24 Nov 2005, 5:44)

It is you who wrote that "This whole argument about men needing this is rubbish." (25 Nov 2005, 21:48) Another nice validation... NOT!

It is you who wrote "I will once again for the final time excuse myself from addressing you. Whilst at on epoint I entered it thinking we may have some intelligent dialogue..." (26 Nov 2005, 1:18) yeah, real nice validation..

I could go on. But what would be the point, letmejustsay. You state that I don't validate you point of view, when I clearly had. You hold yourself as taking "the moral highground, being idealist" (25 Nov 2005, 17:26), but in reality you simply did not validate my point of view. You did not validate my feelings.

[color:"red"]Can you please let me know why one should not label you a "hypocrite"? [/color]

Look, I understand that you are trying to state that I am not capable of sexually satisfying a women. A pure ad hominem attack. Oh, well....


We have a very good relationship. We make love regularly. We are both very satisfied. I do not insist that she match my level of sexual drive; I respect her boundaries, her needs. She understands and respects my sex drive. And she is certainly not threatened by images or writing in magazines or on the internet. She knows that such fantasies are just fantasies, they just relieve extra stress, and that they satisfy a guy's need just as a soap opera may satisfy some woman's other EN. And she knows that no porn can or ever could replace her. Sorry to disappoint you, letmejustsay, but we are both very happy.

We don't have problems, because I certainly would never be an insensitive jerk to "compare the body of his wife ...with 20yr old porn stars" (see your post, 22 Nov 2005 19:43).

We don't have problems because she would never describe me as unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality as some women would: "my h being one of them , constantly comparing and complaining" (see your post, 23 Nov 2005, 17:55)

We don't have problems because my W is sexually secure, and understands that porn, just like other films, is a fantasy, and not a documentary, and is not jealous of women's bodies in porn, like some women are (e.g.: "(I dont know about you but If I look around the supermarket I dont see many us mommys looking like the porn women, myself included). When do we get celebrated, respected and admired??????? (see your post, 23 Nov 2005, 16:52).)

We don't have problems, because we can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. We do not "feel regret that we are marraid to mere mortal women who bodies will change as they age and have pregnancies" (see your post 26 Nov 2005, 22:32)

And we don't use porn as the scapegoat for marital problems as some people naively do (see your post 25 nov 2005, 21:48).

You have GOT to be kidding, right?!

IT IS YOU WHO CANNOT ACCEPT OTHER PEOPLE's VIEWS. Not me.

I very plainly several times stated that original poster can solve her problem by either banishing porn from her house, or learn to accept her partner's use of it. I am very much for letting people chose their own choices.

I stated several times that I understood your point of view.

But it is you who simply cannot accept porn. It is you who is totally closed to anything that I wrote. It is you who thinks that men who use porn automatically must not be able to satisfy their spouses, and cannot consider any other view point. It is you who degrades women as "insecure" if they chose to let her spouses use porn.

My attitude is that if porn is harmful in a marriage then you should get rid off it, but use it if it is beneficial. Your attitude is: Average Guy's view point is wrong. In your narrowminded view, it does not matter if people are happy, they must be educated and converted to your view point.

(For a person who supposedly studied Indigenous issues (25 NOV 2005 23:54) , and who undoubtedly learned about what horrible things the though well meaning, paternalistic attitudes of "we-know-what-is-best-for-others" did to the Indigineous peoples, you certainly don't learn from history well.)

Why can't you just let people make their choices? Why do you have to force your views down their throats? Why can't you just accept that people have different view on certain things? Why do you have to try to control people's viewing habits, even thoughts? You even have the audacity to try to dictate how a guy may or may not masturbate? Are you for real?

Sorry, letmejustsay, it is you who is totally closed minded.

And you don’t even see it!!

Averageguy I could sit here and pull out all your rude disrespectful quotes that have shown chauvanism and a contempt for women, but frankly why bother.

You state that you would never be and insenstive jerk (only one of your insults to my h who is obviously a stronger man than you) and never compare your wifes body to the porn stars????then why do you have a need to look at their bodies anyway???isnt your w enough for you??????

Clearly you do not have a statisfactory sex life , otherwise you would have no need for porn.

Go on with your patheitic views that show contempt for women , regardless of what you ell me I could never believe any woman could be happy being married to amn like you.......


If masterbating to porn is so acceptable to you then do you share the fact that you have this pasttime with friends and family....Your w is foolish enough if she really believes your rubbish but GOD HELP YOUR DAUGHTERS>>>>>>>


I have NO MORE to say to you......as my h has just said 'he's not worthy of your time'. Now dont you have someones naked daughter to go off and masterbate too????


Letmejust say signing off hereby making a commitment to herself to not read anymore of averages posts...

How about we try to have an intellectual convo about porn use that might help this poster instead of attacking each other? Morality is different for everyone depending on their religious, cultural and social backgrounds....so discussing porn use from a standpoint of right and wrong will simply create conflict and muddy the discussion.

Is there such a thing as porn addiction? Well, that's a hotly debated subject, but there is some real evidence to support that, as well as some compelling empirical evidence that support that view. Here on MB....we don't just have wives showing up and saying "my H uses porn!" We also have lots of men who say "I'm a recovering porn addict." "I can't stop using porn" "My porn use is ruining my marriage." If you plug "sexual addiction" into your google engine, you'll be shocked at how much help is available for folks who are struggling with this issue....and since most services grow out of a need for them....that's pretty telling. It's interesting that "porn addiction" is showing up in places like "wikipedia" and other online dictionaries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction Aside from that....there is plenty of research, including research with fMRI's that measure brain activity that clearly show that porn use stimulates the natural opiods created in our own bodies (look at the research of Bartels). And unlike substance abuse....where you can get away from the drug...you can't get away from your own body and porn images can be stored forever in your brain.

None of that changes the fact that most folks safely and recreationally use porn....and will not become compulsive users. I personally have an objection to porn use that has nothing to do with morality, religion or squeamishness about sexuality. I think the industry itself is exploitive and sleezy and as long as there is a market for increased stimulation, things like child porn will not go away. As a marriage advocate, I have an objection to how it can interfere with real intimacy between husband and wife. Masturbating to porn is such an easy release, that it makes the sexual dance between man and wife sometimes appear slow and clumsy. Let's face it....real sex is more complicated....so I dislike seeing men or women just avoiding real intimacy out of laziness. While AG may not compare his wife to porn stars....I have seen and heard many men who do....and many wives who believe they do. I think porn use should be POJAd like the other stuff in a marriage so that everyone is respected.

In AG's case, if his wife is enthusiastic about his use....who am I to say that there's something wrong with that....but that doesn't mean he can make blanket statements that it's good/right for every marriage, because it simply isn't.

According to researchers....dose matters. According to research by the late Alvin Cooper of the Silicon Valley Psychotherapy Center, people engaged in any kind of online sexual activity for less than an hour a week said it had little impact on their lives; people using it for 11 or more hours a week said it affected both their self-image and their feelings about their partners. Anywhere between one and ten hours a week is ambiguous terrain. It may just be a way to release stress, but as Cooper has pointed out, "the Internet is... a very powerful force that people can quickly develop a problem with, like crack cocaine."

Michelle Weiner Davis has a book out called the "Sex Starved Marriage" that has some good advice and guidelines for folks trying to navigate this issue. The important thing to remember is don't panic!! Most men use porn at some point....and it's up to each couple to decide mutually how much is/if any is okay for their sitch.

Starfish,

everything you say is accurate. It oes appear that increased use leads to a greater likelihood of problems. Additionally I think that the increase in more explicit porn may also mean that issues MAY devlop within a shorter time. In our case it was brief weekly porn use but over a period of many years.
Despite what porn has done to my marriage (and the marriage of many others ) I am aware that many people do feel they use it without ill effect.
Unfortunately as you point out the amount of marriages negatively impacted is increasing.
I will keep my eye open for the book you mention sounds interesting. Cheers LMJS

I'm sorry but CLEARLY you are looking at this from a woman's point of view that refuses to believe that (at least some) men can think in ways that women do not. In the same way that it's a mistake to expect women to think and act like a man, it's a mistake to decide that men are out of line if they do not think like women.

I think what is fair to say is that men have instincts which are not necessarily good ones and should be overcome. A similar instinct for a woman might be to (this is kind of a lame comparison but) nag. But realizing it's hurtful to the relationship, she overcomes it. I think it's fair to look at porn the same way-- as normal desires for a guy but hurtful to the bigger picture of family and society.

But I do not like that you are telling him that his sex life is lacking or that his wife is not good enough for him. As a guy, I know for a fact that the two really have nothing to do with each other.

Of course I look at it from a womans perspective after all I am a woman. I undertand what your saying though.. what I wrote was probably not articulated in the way it should have been because I was sick of average throwing comments at me like

Saying porn is not disrepectful

That men only use it for 5 - 10 minutes a day so whats the problem?

Saying my husband is an inconsiderate jerk and that porn is an excuse for our marriage problems.

Saying that I am jealous of other womens bodies.

He was wrong on all these counts and after what Ive been through I have had enough ....

Porn is disresepctful to women in general as far as I am concerned.

Yes my H acted like an inconsderate jerk when he was using porn in the past.


NO , porn was not an excuse for our marriage problems....IT WAS OUR MARRIAGE PROBLEM


I am actually very happy with my body and proud of it, it is healthy, fit and has brough 4 beautiful lives into the world, why on earth would average imply I should be jealous because I wear the badges of motherhood and my H acted like a jerk by making comparisons, Its upseting that he obviously feels a mothers body is somehow inferior to a 'porn body'


Having said all this, I do understand what your saying in that many men see things differently. All Im saying is many women see it the same way I do and its not a nice feeling for those of us that feel we live in a world where those we love disrepect us and feel its OK because 'they think differently. '

Well, of course. You have a right to present your point of views, but my views are labeled as sexist, or worse, if they don't conform with your views. You can have woman's opinion, but I don't have a right to have a man's opinion.

How enlightening!

And you still have not validated my viewpoint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Oh, so I see. You are sick of me saying that your H was an inconsiderate jerk, but in fact you admit that he was an inconsiderate jerk. As a matter of fact, pretty much all of the other posters who responded to your original post several months ago had the same opinion.

Interesting!

No Average I totally agree my h ACTED like an inconsiderate jerk when using porn but now he no longer uses it he is the gentleman I once married.

Just like you say 'and yes there is a difference'. Hey maybe he compartmentalised his jerk self lol

Average--



At last, a point of agreement between the two of us. This whole thread has gone so far astray, I bet it ceased to be of any help to the original poster long ago. That's why I stopped chiming in awhile back. But PLEASE pay attention to my following point:

How do you think most porn misuse/overuse/compulsions/addictions start??? I'm no expert. All I know is what happened in my own marriage. Several years ago, I could have been ssp. My husband could have been her husband. Our situation THEN was very much like the one she describes NOW with hur husband. My H used it once in awhile. I felt threatened by it at first, and learned to look the other way after awhile. And slowly but surely, it very nearly destroyed our marraige.

Can some couples accept the occasional use of porn in their relationship and keep it an an "accpetable" level over time? I suppose it's possible. But in my case, when the going got tough in our marriage, the lure of the porn as a quick and easy escape sucked my husband in. It became a way to numb himself. And eventually, a terrible, destructive compulsion. An addiction. And it happened so gradually, that we didn't see what was happening and deal with it until we had a crisis on our hands.

I wish someone had "scared the daylights" out of me and my husband years ago. Would that have prevented what happened to us? Who knows. But at least I might not have felt so blind-sided by it.

Last night, my husband sat with me and cried. He is heartsick over the lost years and all the damage done to our relationship. I have forgiven him. Completely. But he has not yet forgiven himself. Women aren't the only ones who get hurt by porn. Men can be deeply hurt by it too. IT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO RUIN LIVES. That SHOULD scare the daylights out of all of us.

Period.

--SC

Yes I really do believe porn can be at least as damaging to men as it can be to women, I too have seen what my h has been through and wouldnt wish this on anyone.

I was wondering how one finds help groups? My husband looks at porn daily we have got in constant arguments about sites like Ratemyfaceadult.com or Ratemybody.com and recently about Myspace.com He always gets angry and dismisses my feelings but he has made comments to women about their bodies and things he wants to do to them. I get upset and he deletes them but only to go finad another site to do it. Why cant he just stay off of them? He has had 2 affairs in teh past and I dont think I have ever been able to heal from them because this stuff always comes up. I do not trust him at all. I dont even know how I feel anymore I am just growing tired of feeling like the lowest peice of crap on the earth.......

Does he want to stop? If he does and you are looking for a group that will hold him accountable there is one called xxxchurch.com

If you are christians, there are several good books Every Man's Battle is very good.

I'm sorry you are hurting.

It appears that most people even those who use porn agrees that it can be unsavoury and AG even said quaote that if his wife would allow him to take photos he would digard the porn, so then isnt it all just excuses guys.....
No matter how you justify it, you are doing something which on some level at least you believe is 'less than ideal'....
Like Ive said before - it takes a stronmg man to put his integrity above his willy..

In relation to another comment made by Ag about sexual harrassment being commited by men who desire more orgasms. Well I must disagree,m sexual harassment is commited by men with VERY limited respect for women. porn only feeds this.

After completing my thesis on this topic I came to understand that one of the greatest misconceptions we have about rape is that it is provoked by sexual desire. Despite the fact it involves acts of sex , rape is actually an act of hate, not sex...
Sexual harrassment likewise is a milder form of hatred.

When people justify porn by saying it gratifies sexual desires thus decreasing rape they fail to acknowledge this. In triuth porn promotes disrepesct of women. (in the least)

Hi LetMeJustSay.

I know your heart is in the right place but I do feel that you are bull-dozing with comments like "guys are just giving excuses". We have explained numerous times why it is not as hurtful as you think yet you reject all those reasons and say we are just throwing out disengenous things for excuses to view porn. That is not the case with me. I have thought much about it. I will add a few things on morality since I haven't covered that yet.

1. Porn in a vacume is perfectly OK in my opinion. Guys are not wired to be manogomous. Yet, family and feelings and all of that demand manogomy. Shoot... I would be hurt if my wife really wanted to sleep with someone else. So I must treat her by the same rules I want to be treated by which is to not actively want to have sex with anyone besides her. But porn can be a way of having just that little tiny outlet for the instinct to have sex with multiple females in a safe and "non-threatening" way in terms of cheating.

2. If girls in porn were just special effects computer graphics, I would not have an issue with the morality of it. But since they are real people, getting paid to have sex... that is unethical and me viewing porn is somehow condoning that. That IS a moral things which I tried not to think about because I did know it was wrong to condone the "sale" of a girl's body at my expense.

3. I think that porn can be used in bad ways. Guys who can't get hard without it or that develop some kind of emotional enfatuation or connection with it have some serious problems and are kind of gross and creepy if you ask me.

4. Finally, I think that women are wired in a way that porn threatens them. So this becomes unfair that we demand they change the way that they are wired. That'd be like them trying to tell us that having a sex drive was wrong. So if your wife really resents and is hurt by porn, it's best to just give it up.

That is my honest to God feelings on porn. I really don't think that viewing porn in itself is wrong but that the hurt it causes others is big enough that overall, it's not a good thing for a married guy to engage in (unless the wife is 110% cool with it).

Hi Wasp, I really sorry if my stating the fact that men have many excuses for viewing porn makes you feel bulldozed...

You and I differ on some very important points.
1 - Unlike you I dont belive porn is OK

2. - I dont believe guys are hardwired not to be monogamous any more than women. (I believe it is a totally moral choice for both sexes.. ****** I too would have sex with many men if it didnt hurt my husband but because it would I choose not to).

I think many men like to kid themselkves that women dont crave variety just as much as them or enjoy the eyecandy but we CHOOSE not to behave in this way out of respect for both our partners and ourselves.

So where you contend that men and women are wired so totally differently I would challenge this and say that this is only ONE view on the social construction of gender.Our socialisation plays a huge role in how we behave and these behaviours are totally within our control. To allow 'bad behaviours that hurt others is to basically behave like an animal. putting basic desires (not needs, because they are no more needs for men than for women.) above morality and integrity.
These are my honest views on porn and no doubt they will offend all who look to justify this character weakness in themselves and I am sorry for them but I must speak my truth just as you speak yours. For too long women have sat back and accepted this bulldozing by men and society in general.
I do not ask any man to change....all I would hope for is that each one of us , men and women alike would strive to do the most honorble thing and seek to really know ourselves. (without justifications and excuses).
Of course each one of us lives as we see fit but there it must be acknowledged that as a man you can never really be aware of how women feel about their husbands using porn. To assume we are all wired to hate it is so false......
each individual man and women is unique and has their own reasons for loving or hating it.

You may say, well I cant understand why you like porn and you are right but simply because you enjoy using it, does that mean that women may not make a judgemnet on you fgor this choice?

After reading another more recent post on men and porn I quite frankly was disgusted by the excuses....

My sex life with my wife is not as frequent as I would like

It means something different to men than women

Or the best ever

Men are just more visual than women.


sorry if calling a spade a spade offends anyone...but truth is they are nothing more than sorry excuses for choices that are made purely for the mans orgasm, despite the fact that many women (and yes women he doesnt even know) are being hurt by this indutry....

How can people be so callous as to nopt care about the big picture of how this impacts???

I m sorry...I know I still just dont get it.....How any man can justify an activity that hurts so many women and so many marriages just for his orgasm....and you know what....I never will...

To me this is supreme selfishness and anything short of an apology is simply an EXCUSE

Yes it really is that black and white

To those who may believe porn is fine and may choose to flame me for daring to challenge the staus quo I say....
you are LYING to YOURSELF IF YOU THINK ANY "REASON" makes your choice to hurt so many (whether you directly see their hurt or not) makes your choices the right ones..

Ugh, here we go again....

Look, letmejustsay, it is not porn that creates problems in some marriages, but the fact that H uses porn instead of devoting time and energy to his W. Porn is NOT the problem. If a H drinks instead of devoting time to his W, then drinking is a problem. If H goes fishing and hunting with his buddies instead of devoting time to his W, then it is a problem.

If porn, or drinking, or fishing, or whatever is the reason why H does not fulfill his W's EN, then it needs to be eliminated, mitigated, or somehow dealt with.
.
In an ideal world I'd do nothing all day but sit around, read, eat, travel, and have sex 2x a day. But I live in a real world. With schedules. And work. And meetings to go to. I really wish that W and I had SF 5x a week, but I know that for many reasons it simply is not realistic. Thus, whether I like it or not, I have SF with W as schedule allows, and use porn other times. Though sex is important to us, we are simply not willing to sacrifice so much of our other facets of our life so I could get off with her 5x a week.
.
.
Look, I know what you are trying to imply. "Yes, AG, you just have a strong sex drive, and if you don't have as much SF to satisfy your sexual needs, then you should just hold it in. Be a big boy." Do you simply wish guys to be sexually unfulfilled because of your aversion to porn?
.
.
.

You are confusing your terms. Rape is not an act of hate. Rape is an act of violence. A guy may hate his boss, or the other sports team, or particular food, or his neighbor. Does he deal with his hate by raping them? No.

If a rapist rapes a woman he has never seen before, is it because he hates her? Why would he hate a stranger so much that he would rape her?

If most rapes are committed by men against women, are you suggesting that men do not hate other men, or that women do not hate anyone?

Look, I understand that rape is a form of violence, and that you cannot say it is based on sexual desire, because sexual desire and love are good, but rape is bad, and thus sexual desire and rape cannot coexist in your academic model of this vile act. But to think that a guy rapes a woman because he hates her, and his sex drive has nothing to do with it, simply ignores reality.

LMJS,
I TEND to agree with you. I agree that Sexual morality really is a choice. I also understand that women choose to be monogomous. But I wonder if the male instinct to not be monogomous might not be higher. If you aknowledge that there are major differences between male and female in general, why are you soo convinced that our drives and interests would be perfectly matched?

I reserve the possibility that I'm lying to myself but what I can tell you is that conserns that you or my wife have about porn... they are unfounded and based in fear. My wife and I have viewed porn together and she would say things like "do you like that girl's boobs?" And I'd be like "hm. They are alright". "Do you think they are too big?" she'd say. I was having a hard time answering the questions because my mind wasn't really going like that. I just get and overall picture of if I like what I see or not. I don't break it down and analyse that way. Then she says "because I have a similar body type; I'm wondering if my body type is your #1 pick of body types". And I'm thinking to myself "Oh my God. Way to complicate and ruin this fun with such serious thinking. I love my wife's body; why can't it be as simple as that and stop digging and trying to second guess me?". As you can see, the porn made insecurities come up in her mind. But her insecurities had zero to do with my real thoughts. Porn wasn't an excuse to look at something better than my wife. It was just porn... something edgy and different.

To get off the topic of porn, how do you think it is best to handle situations of insecurity in a marriage? Let's say you going to the mall by yourself makes your husband insecure that you will meet another man. Do you not go to the mall? Or do you tell your husband to get ahold of himself? So far in my relationship, we've leaned towards "not going to the mall" (that's figurative and not literal) or a compromise where maybe we'd "go to the mall together". That is working for us now. But I can forsee times when one person is simply being too insecure or irrational about their fears. Porn aside, what is your view on that?

Hi AG and Wasp, thanks for your replies and may I just say I pleasantly greeted by the respected responses you both gave..
AG , whilst rape is an act of violence it is also an act of hate...I made not confusion of terms. Men who rape women usually do so because of deep seated hatered and anger towards women. Sure they may not know the women they rape but it is a way of asserting power against women in general.

It is true that it is not caused by his sex drive but rather from deep seated psychological urges.
Through your way of seeing it (that rape is a result of sex drive - you basically position all men as potential rapist) I dont believe that. I feel rapist are deeply disturbed people who seek to abuse women and use rape and sexual violence as a weapon.

In terms of the quote about 'being a big boy'. they are not my words....
But no I dont expect you to not use porn because of my feelings about it, I would hope you would not use porn because you recognise the hurtful effect it is having on many women and marriages and would make a conscious choice not to support such and industry.

Also You say that porn per say is not to blame it is that it takes away from the relationship just like fishing etc. This is wrong because the attention it takes away from the relationship is only PART of the problems porn can create. My situation is a classic example with porn creating a dissatisfaction with the w. Of course your w is only one person not a never ending supply of 'perfect body parts' It sets many men up for dissillusionment and although you say you are not one of these men I would chanllege you as to what body parts you have consitioned yourself to aesthetically admnire. Do you find the 20yr old body typically found in porn more desirable or the 40yr old bodyt that has born children. of course I ask that you put emotions aside and decide puely on looks. If you were single and your w body was next to the porn body which would you choose??? if you knew neither. belive it or not you were not born to desre the porn style body.(You might even say men were designed to prefer this but a quick look through history shows us how our desires and perceptions of the perfect body change) You have been conidtioned (like the rest of society) and whilst I acknowldege that media in all forms (womens mags, tv etc) are all responsible for this, porn is an extreme form which included the 'so called perfect idea of even the most intimate parts of a woman. You may see no harm in prefering the porn body (if you didnt know your wife and say 'I have so many levels of attraction to my wife that are deeper' but why take away from considering your partners body the most perfect by viewing porn. What I guess Im saying is that by not viewing porn your wife takes up the whole of you visual stimulation. As my husband described it, before there was porn and me, seperate. Now the porn is gone there is more room for me . I have become his sole seual focus and as a result his feelings for me have grown. (my feelings sadly are a whole different ball game, please read my personal message to you below).
If you believe your w body more 'perfect' then I trust you sek out women in porn whos bodies, age and looks are similar to hers Right???? Just my thought......

Wasp, Hi I see that you seem to at least understand a little bit of where Im coming from as it seems you have heard many similar things from your wife.
Perhaps you might consider that simply because we see things differently perhaps we have some valid points. I

I know what your saying about insecurity in marriage , it is a difficult situation and interestingly it turns out my husbands porn use was largely a result of his insecurity. Porn allowed it unlimited access to women without the possibility of rejection (not that it happens too often lol). Had I been more insecure I may have stayed silent about his porn use and allowed myself to feel this way...

So wheras many men mistakienly feel that women who dont like porn are insecure I actually think many of us are intellegent secure confident women who simply see it for what it is.
Sure I wouldnt stop going to the mall if he didnt like it. The mall hurts nobody. I could nevcer compare him to the mall, never give away a special part of myself meant for him to go to the mall.

Wasp, it sounds like your in a similar place that I was.....when I listened to othere who said 'oh its no big deal', 'all men do it' men and women see it diffrently' etc. I watched it with my h for a while in the hopes I would 'get over it'. Believe me, this was the worst mistake ever, because all that happened is a I began to resent my husband so much.
When I looked at this stuff I felt pity for the 'actors' I felt contempt for those who consume it (and disgust with myself for being part of that group).
These were my 'political' views

There was also of course the personal side ' Yes it did make me feel my husband compared me ( and his ridiculous comments didnt help)
Yes, I did feel less attractive and special to him...
Basically it was almost the nail in our marriage.

I know what your saying though my husband also says he dint think those thoughts (about comparisons etc) but I think the main thing I can say is that all women (and probably men too) need to feel special to their husbands.....

I have never met a wife yet who says ' Wow, my husband watching porn makes me feel so special'.
Wasp, I really feel for you, it soo hard but my honest advice, is please repsect the fact that your wife is not being irrational, she has a valid reason to be hurt....
She is sharing with you her most precious gift, her heart, body and soul and you gave the same to her. When you choose to share this with some 20yr old bimbo you have never met....(on paper of not) dont be suprised that she is hurt....

So the truth, and I say this not to hurt you, is that your wife is speaking her heart, she is opening up and making herself vulnerable by sharing these feelings and this takes guts and confidence, so why assume she is insecure.
But if she is insecure in other ways then I think couseling is really important. It is not reasonable to expect normal activities that hurt noone to casue insecurity.
This is where AG and I really disagree. whilst he believe porn is one of these 'everyday activities trhat causes no harm ' I really disagree. So I guess your situaltion requires you to look inside and decide whether you agree that it is harmless (and not just to yourself) or harmful...
When you maker this judgement for yourself the most important thing will be to put desires aside and look at it purely rationally.

Best of luck, I really hope things work out for you both

One of the most interesting things I have noticed its the readiness of some men to label women as irrational in the way they feel about porn....

If it is true what some say about men being naturally pulled towards porn then surely these same men must recognise that women are in a far better place to rationally analyse the impact of porn and would therefore be able to better see the truth about its impact. ????

If men are so interested in porn then perhaps these urges color the way they see it and make them unable to rationally look at the big picture????

Just a thought.

That is very sad. So what exactly are these things that are so important that y'all put them ahead of meeting each others emotional needs?


AG, if the only reason your using porn is because y'all refuse to make time for each other then I would tend to think that the better solution for a more fulfilling marriage would be to rectify the time y'all are together.

***edit***

Hi LMJS, I feel exactly the same way you stated above. Did you get advice that you can share?

Most of the people defending the use of porn are men. As a woman, I don't see the problem of it. If you have a good marriage, the only problem it can cause is if you are so against it that he feels he has to hide it from you. This is different than going to strip clubs because those are real women, that he could have real contact with. This is just my opinion, but I really think that you are turning this into a problem in your marraige. He knows how you feel and if he stops because HE WANTS TO, great, but if he stops because you tell him to, it is with resentment, and will eventually lead to him doing it again, just trying harder to hide it. I just think that there are lots of other things to worry about in marraige, and this shouldn't be made into more of an issue than it is. But then anyone who's read my posts, knows how screwed up my personal life is so maybe you should take my opinion with a grain of salt...

Some women are okay with it, true. Actually, most of my female friends are okay with it. It IS a problem if it makes you feel replaced, though. My H and I weren't having sex very often at all, he was rejecting my advances. I started snooping because I felt as if something was going on. He wouldn't open up, so I went looking. I was actually looking for drugs, or a phone #, that is how bad things between us were. To this day, I still don't know what his problem was, and he claims that he doesn't either. As one person put it in another post, porn isn't nessaccarily the problem, but may be a red flag of a deeper problem.

I'm just posting out here some old posts on this same subject (from this same board).

Takola: "Here is a good point I'd like to make. Let's say your W liked to masturbate to nude pictures of your best male friends. Heck, let's say she masturbates to videos of your best male friends masturbating. Let's say she does it a few times a month. You complain, and she just changes so that she does it behind your back and doesn't tell you...would this be satisfactory to you?"

Dean: "OH MY GOD! YOU ARE ON THE BORDERLINE OF BEING DISGUSTING. YOU ARE MAKING ME WONDER IF YOU ARE AS INTELLIGENT AS I THOUGHT YOU WAS IN THE PAST POSTS."

Takola: "Dean, I have a point here. Yes, this is disgusting. The point here is that you draw a differentiation between knowing the subject of the pornographic matter and not knowing them. Some people, and you seem to be one, don't know the person in the porn or their name. It isn't really a person, it is seen as a pornographic work. Others don't really see a differentiation between knowing and not knowing the subject in the pornography. There is a person there (in the cases we've discussed before a woman, so I will use that) - a real live breathing woman with a name, a face, livelihood, and a family. People who know her and love her. This is a person. To them, it is not a work of pornography - you are masturbating to pictures and scenes of a live person who is not them. They see it as sharing your sexuality with this person, when it should be reserved for them.

It is not all about the people in porn looking more attractive and making people insecure. It isn't all about moral or religious objections to porn. It is about a different perspective, one that (I am guessing based upon your posts) you do not share.

You say that my scenario is disgusting, and I agree with you. What I am saying is that some people see the use of pornography in the same light in which you see my scenario."

Just something to think about...I'm going back to lurking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate your faith in my view points, but I am not sure that I can offer anything more insightful then has been provided to you here, or in your parallel post Married me because he could get better!!!!! (Sorry I could not get to this earlier)

First of all, you have my condolences. I cannot believe that a guy would EVER say to his W anything like what your H to you. His comments, as others have noted, is so incredibly insensitive and inappropriate, it just boggles ones mind why he would say such a thing. A H should be worshipping the ground that his W is standing on, and not pushing her face into it.

As wasp89 mentioned, do not let him get away with this vitiating treatment of you. Perhaps anger, exasperation, logic, crying on your part would be an appropriate responsive and preventive method of mitigating his inappropriate behavior. I don’t know what works on him.

It is perplexing by an adult would do such a thing. Surely he must know that one should not say such things to one's spouse! Perhaps he is immature, perhaps he misunderstands the RH concept, perhaps it is a cry for help ("you devote much time to our 4 kids, and not enough to me! I am jealous."). I don't know.

But to your present query. Your self-esteem seems to be tied to his approval of your looks. Obviously, the first prong of attack is the eradication of his hurtful comments. The second prong is to taking care of your outward appearance (I am not in any way implying that you are not doing it already; indeed, you may be already overcompensating already). I see this as essential not because it would necessarily change your looks to meet his approval, but to (a) make yourself feel better about yourself, (b) not to leave any doubt in your mind that he may just be right, and if you only tried things might be different, and (c) to demonstrate to yourself and to him that you are taking care of yourself and that you care about yourself.

But the most important prong from my view is to understand that his physical attraction to you is not dictated solely by the volumetric dimensions or perkiness of ones breasts or by the presence or absence of stretch marks. It is dictated mostly by the attitude about one's body, and confidence about self. If you feel sexy, and act sexy, then you will be sexy; your looks are secondary. To paraphrase wasp, to guys, women's good looks are dictated only about 40% by their photogenic qualities and 60% is her attitude. Be confident and happy, and he WILL find you irresistible. On the other hand, a woman who has a body of a 20 yr old porn star, and has a poor attitude, is full of insecurity, will simply be very unappealing to all guys.

I don't know if I helped or not.

Thank Ag , I agree with what you say,
It totally perplexes me because I was so very confident about myself prior to these comments and his change s of attitude. But I think one of thew things you noted jumped out at me...he is immature.
I am slowly gaining my confidence back...I think h is starting to feel a little bit of heat as a younger and (I proabbaly shouldnt say this but better looking man) has started taking a bit of an interest in me...Not that I would ever act on it but its funny because my friend reckons men can sniff out when a married womans is not being appreciated. I think he's feeling more than a little nervous about the whole thing at the momen. And wrong or right Im not doing a lot to reassure him at this point in time.
Anyway , thanks again for you kind advice, hopefully my h will come to his senses. I think one of the reasons I became so upset by our last discussion is that my wounds here cut deeper , it seemed to upset me to hear a man say he used porn but didnt consider his wife to be less attractive than these women, because I knew my husband did. - Although I dodnt think I will ever agree that porn is not degrading I can at least see that it effects relationships in different ways. Unfortunately for me it effected my marriage badly, no doubt largely because of my h immaturity......Thanks again, it is graet that even though we have different view we can come together on such a forum to help one anoter, best wishes, bella

Ps I wanted to add that it was only through reading the insightful sensitive comments to other post of people who were in trouble I was able to put aside differences and realsie that each one of us offeres our own unique wisdom. Thanks again

I have had the same problems as you. I have got my husband looking at porn on the internet. I have also caught him masturbating to magazines in the garage. What I don't know doesn't hurt me, but what I do know does. He said that most men look at porn and it is normal. He accuses me of being jeolous of the women in the mags. I am certainly not jeolous of them. I am an attractive 26 year old women. But, I just don't think men should do the same things that they did when they were single. I would suggest you stand your ground. That is what I did. I am sure my husband still looks at porn, but if I catch him again I will continue to stand my ground. He says that he should be able to do what he wants in his own home, but isn't this my home too. I don't think we will ever agree on the issue. I try to ignore it, but it sometimes creeps intor my head. When I am away, I sometimes wonder if he is looking at it. I am sure you may have the same type of feelings. And it just isn't fair. Is porn really that important.

It's unfortunate that a lot of men believe that porn does not affect the relationship. My husband has a warped view of sex because of it. I hate porn period and my husband knows it. It's a boundary in my relationship. My husband's use has decreased, however, he still views it on ocassion. I am not happy with it and I let him know. I have now found that it does no good for me to beat him over the head with it.

I think its wrong to assume that "most women" feel the same way about porn. I'm a 27 year old woman and sometimes i like to watch porn too. Like anything else if you do it too much, or if the sex you're having becomes all porn all the time then it is a problem. Obviously, you can take the advice of each person and consider it but consider it carefully. It's your relationship and in the end you need to think about how its really affecting it. If you really cant stand porn and are so against it then that is something you need to express. Communicate with your husband and if you cant then that is the bigger issue here.