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Man of gOd is right, nobody is attacking average, only stating the obvious which does clearly escape him.
Average No I am not saying men cant tell the difference between a computer generated image and real life woman but simply that despite the fact we may logcally know 'hey these images are computer generated IT STILL REPRESENT WOMEN. If you have difficulty understanding how abstratct concept and representation effect our mind study some art, read some literature and EDUCATE yourself. If someone puts a computer hgenerated image of someone you love having sexual intercourse with others in the most degrading weay do you then say....hey it doesnt matter ,its not really her, its computer generated????? Imagery is powerful, it sends messages. real or computer generated.
Oh and before I finish, you say that others should not presume because of your experiences...WELL...dont you dare tell me as a woman how porn effects me or the many many thousands of other women who feel the same way. It has destroyed my marriage and I have a close friend whose marriage is broken down because her pathetic litttle hubby couldnt keep his hand off his willy and porn......Sorry guys, but men like average make me understand why sadly many women are losing repect for men (even the decent ones.)

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Quote:

...What a lot of people fail to understand about the point of porn disrespecting women is that it is most definately not just about the 'actresses' .....it is about the messages and ideas that porn produces and sends about what real women are like,. How they behave (or should) how they look (or should) and what their true essence is....




Sorry, but it does not send messages of how women are like. It is just a fantasy. It is not reality. Yes, men know the difference.


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Quote:


What's the difference? Explain it to me. Seriously. Are YOU implying that you and your wife are ABOVE starring in porn? That you're somehow BETTER than the people who do?





No we are not above starring in porn. I would not want to star in porn (and I don’t think that many people would get turned on by me, anyway).

I would not like it if my wife would star in porn, but if she really had a good enough reason (e.g., it would her life long dream), then I’d be supportive. I would be supportive because I respect my wife’s wishes, even when they are in conflict with mine. No, I would not forbid her from staring in porn. It is not my place to dictate what my wife can and cannot do.


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The fact that you cant even understand that it send very clear messages shows that you are missing the whole point. If your best arguement is 'no it doesnt send messages then you obviously are not educated in this are. Like I said EDUCATE yourself. Talk to women about how they are treated, how they feel, what the impact of porn has been on them and the way their husbands feel about them. Until you walk a mile in their shoes dont dare tell us that it doesnt send messages. It is a big part of the reason why women are so clearly discriminated against and rtreated as second class people or sex object even with legislation that attempts to stop. It seems that porn may even be the reason why you so arrogantly refuse to even listen to a womans point of view like mine...My H and I ened up in counseling because he used porn and began comparing my body with these women. I am not overwegight I am healthy but it caused him to complian about things like stretch marks or natural breast changes simply because he compared the body of his wife (ho has had 4 children) with 20yr old porn stars. How can you say it is not damaging????? You have no idea. I feel that trying to have a rational discussion with you is futile and for my own peace of mind I will no longer read this thread as it is just too frustrating to try discussing something that has affected me so deeply with someone like you. Best wishes I hope that one day your eyes are opened ...

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My opinion of AverageGuy has changed from ignorant to dolt.

I'm done trying to help him understand.

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Quote:

ManofGod -- Thanks for the heads-up on Average Guy. But I must disagree. I find him to be arrogant as well as ignorant. The term "Sexist Pig" also comes to mind, but I wouldn't want to be so disrespectful. Oops. Did I write that out loud?

ssp -- are you still around? Is any of this helping you?

--SC




Sexist pig? Sorry, but you are wrong. You do not know anything about me. I have actually written extensively on sexual harassment and ways to combat it. It has actually been translated into other languages. And during my college days I did defaced professors office who was ogling women students which women felt powerless to stop it and the university did nothing about him. There is more.

I simply think that if a guy enjoys porn and the woman he is with is against it, that there are two possibilities: either (1) he should respect her views and stop using it, or (2) she should accept him and be supportive of his activities. The knee-jerk 70’s attitude of “all porn is evil” is simply too narrow-minded.

Why automatically do you discount (2)?


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Quote:


Talk to women about how they are treated, how they feel, what the impact of porn has been on them and the way their husbands feel about them....My H and I ened up in counseling because he used porn and began comparing my body with these women. I am not overwegight I am healthy but it caused him to complian about things like stretch marks or natural breast changes simply because he compared the body of his wife (ho has had 4 children) with 20yr old porn stars. How can you say it is not damaging?????...





I have. Most women who are secure are not threatened by porn.

It is only those women whose H’s thinks that it is funny to do crass things like comparing his W’s body to a model’s body, who feel threatened by porn. It is simply idiotic, disrespectful and immature of your H to complain about your beautiful body. If I’d have a partner who’d put me through what your husband put you through, I’d feel the same way as you.


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Quote:


It is a big part of the reason why women are so clearly discriminated against and rtreated as second class people or sex object even with legislation that attempts to stop.




Porn has certainly been used as a proof of hostile environment in sexual harassment cases, but I am not aware of any case where porn was used in a sexual discrimination case. Please educate me; give me some cites for Title VII sexual discrimination cases. Or even state level cases. Thanks!

There are a number of reasons why women continue to be discriminated against, but porn is not one of them. We must fight against sexual discrimination wherever it is found, and not waste precious resources against things that have nothing to do with discrimination.

If I am wrong, please send me a link!


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AverageGuy #1521526 11/22/05 09:48 PM
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Maybe I am all wrong. Please help me understand your point of view. I am serious.

Look, guys have a stronger sexual drive then women. Let say that he wants sexual gratification 5 times a week, she just 2 times. Just how do you propose that their sexual relationship should be like? Should he completely disregard his wife’s personal boundaries and should he force her to have sex with him 5 times a week? Or should they have sex only 2 a week, and he just have his sexual needs unfulfilled?

The answer to me is obvious: they have sex 2 a week, and he takes matter into his own hands 3 times a week. She is getting the level of sex she wants. He is getting the level of sex that he wants. Every one is happy.

Forbidding H porn and thus not providing sexual satisfaction that he needs, is a terrific way of having a frustrated husband. This does not make for a good marriage.

Question: if he wants it 5x a week, and she 2x, what do you then suggest?

I am serious about this. I really want to learn how relationships where there are different levels of sexual drive deal with this issue.

Thanks!


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Quote:

My opinion of AverageGuy has changed from ignorant to dolt.

I'm done trying to help him understand.




OK, but please let me understand YOU. I really want to.

If the guy's sex drive is much stronger than the woman's sex drive, then what should their sex life be like?

Thanks!


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OK, my opinion on the sex drive concern.

Females like sex and enjoy sex as much as men, UNLESS:

1. They feel unattractive
2. They feel disrespected
3. They feel pressured
4. They feel unappreciated
5. They feel unloved
6. They feel uncared for
7. They feel used

I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. Keyword here being "FEEL". And I know that abusive and traumatic experiences (from their past) can cause their sex drive to go down as well, but that too is "FEEL".

If a man is caring, affectionate, and approaches sexual relations from a "loving" and "I want to make you feel good first and foremost" standpoint, then he is much more likely to have a woman who wants to have sex with him as often as he does.

I am not proud of the number of women that I have had sexual relations with by any means, but every single one of them wanted to have sex much more often than I did. What stopped that from happening? Not meeting emotional needs and love busters. The times where we were both happy and having ENs met, we made love daily (sometimes multiple times in the same day).

I'll bet if you poll women who say that they have "great sex lives", you will find that they want it much more often then the men they are with. Simple fact is, women can outlast men and often want it more, more, and more when it's good.

You want to have sex more often with your spouse? Then start with what makes them feel good APART from sex. However, if they feel the slightest bit inclined that you're only doing other things to get laid (i.e. the used thing), you're going to be left wanting.

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All I know is that when I look at my two sons, I know that I do not want them to have to deal with the "urges" for porn that I have to deal with. In the past, before I had kids, i could rationalize the use. But when I look at my sons, I know that it is a dangerous thing that has had nothing but negative affects on my life, and I would never want them to be caught by the same trap. And when I look at my daughter, well, I always used to think that the porn actresses were doing what they wanted, making a living how they chose to, but I know that is not the case. I would never, ever want my daughter to have anything to do with porn, PERIOD. And thinking of it in the terms that all those women are somebodies daughter, used to be somebodies little girl, really makes me feel guilty beyond description. My little girl is so precious to me. And those women used to be little girls who were precious to their parents as well.

I know that it is a trap. Unhealthy and powerful. It may provide momentary gratification, but its deleterious long term effects greatly outweigh the shorterm "pleasure". I say "pleasure" because even when I was using it, it's use made me feel empty, or should I say amplified my feelings of emptiness that were already present.

I thought it filled a void in me, but I am now realizing that it falsely filled that void, actually made that void worse. Find out what causes you to have the drive to use porn and fix that underlying problem.

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I think that with all of the debating going on my post was overlooked, so here it is again.

Quote:

Hi everyone. My H and I are going through something very similar. My story is posted in "Living Together..." in the "Mens sexual behaviors", around the 5th or 6th page. If you could spare a moment, could some of you read through it. I really could use some advice and support. I'll add more details tomorrow after some of you get to read what I've written already. I would really like to talk to SC and BT. You ladies have been through what I am going through.



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Quote:

Admit it: you dislike porn because you want to be able to control your spouse, and you view porn as a threat to such control.




And you wonder why I called you a sexist pig??? Look, I'm sorry about the name calling. But honestly, you spew so many stereotypes and generalizations that it's infuriating! Statments like "men want it more" and "men know the difference".

You suggest in your most recent posts that men only use porn because they have stronger sex drives than their wives, and deserve to have their every urge satisfied. Did you read the post yesterday by the broken hearted woman who said she never denied her husband sex, but he used porn anyway???

Let me tell you something else --my sex drive is every bit as strong as my husband's. But there was a period of time, right after the births of each of our children, when I really was too tired and overwhelmed to feel like making love. And that's when porn really became a problem in our marraige. Instead of being a man -- showing compassion and empathy, and exercising some restraint -- my husband turned to porn. Then, when I was ready for sex again, the porn had become such a habit, he had lost interest in me. It was just easier to take care of business himself.

Don't get me wrong. He is a wonderful man. Everybody who's been following my story in the infidelity section of this form has been amazed by him and the way he has worked to save our marriage. If porn can become such a destructive force in the life of a secure, loving, mature man like him -- it can happen to anybody.

It's not the first time porn has had a negative impact on MY LIFE either. My brother spent quite a bit of time looking at smutty magazines right before he decided to start molesting me. I am walking proof that this junk has the power to ruin -- or at the very least, severely damage -- lives! And yes, I find it very arrogant of YOU to tell ME that I just don't like it because I want to control my husband. HOW DARE YOU!

In fact, if he were here right now, he would laugh in your face. He has often commented on how uncontrolling and low-maintenence I am. How supportive of him I have always been. How easygoing and fun I am. The use of porn is different than other activities and hobbies. You are the only one here who doesn't seem to get that.

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Hi NeedtoTalk,
I'm glad you're back. I read your post from the other part of the forum. Could I suggest that you create a brand new post with your story so we can get out of this thread? That way, You'll have your own thread with people who go there just to help you.
--SC

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SC-Should I post it in this section or in teh general questions section. I've read many people suggest the GQ section since there is more activity.

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ntt - You're right. There's more activity in GQ. Go for it! I'll see you over there!

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Quote:

OK, my opinion on the sex drive concern.

Females like sex and enjoy sex as much as men, UNLESS:

1. They feel unattractive
2. They feel disrespected
3. They feel pressured
4. They feel unappreciated
5. They feel unloved
6. They feel uncared for
7. They feel used





ManofGod, are you SURE you aren't a woman? Because often the things you say sound like something a woman would say. I know lots of girls in my life who have wanted to claim that they have a high sex drive and want it more than the guy and having listened to them and asked them questions about their motivations, what it is about sex that they like.... it turns out that they don't have half the drive they think they do. Basically, it comes down to that they don't REALLY understand the male sex drive. They may be willing to have sex often, but the motivation for it is more emotional. At the core, I think women only have about 20% the true, animal drive that men have for sex itself. The rest of the gratification comes from the emotional closeness, the attension, and exclusivity of it but in all honesty, that desire could be filled for them just as easily with a romantic walk on the beach or a bubble bath that has nothing to do with sex itself.
I have yet to know a woman that felt like she was going crazy and would explode if she couldn't have sex-- to the point where her mind is clouded and she can't think straight and sex is all she can think about. I often explain my drive as the same as having to pee really bad. (side note--women usually get offended by this because they say it's reducing sex to a bodily function). When you have to pee really bad, someone could be trying to talk to you and nothing's sinking in. Your mind can't stop thinking that you need to pee. Same thing with sex for man guys. How many women do you know that can actually say the drive is THAT strong for them?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just interested in talking in terms of truth instead of myths or "catch phrases" that women like to throw out which aren't true.

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Quote:


The answer to me is obvious: they have sex 2 a week, and he takes matter into his own hands 3 times a week. She is getting the level of sex she wants. He is getting the level of sex that he wants. Every one is happy.

Forbidding H porn and thus not providing sexual satisfaction that he needs, is a terrific way of having a frustrated husband. This does not make for a good marriage.





I agree that masterbation is the answer but I do not agree that porn has to be used. From what I can tell, porn is extremely hurtful to women. In the same way that it's hurtful when guys can't get their sexual need fufilled, there's no reason to have to hurt your wife by using porn when you can masterbate without porn and get satisfied without hurting your wife.

slimjim #1521537 11/23/05 02:59 PM
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wasp89,

The myth or "old wives tale" is that men have stronger sex drives then women. Especially in their 30s and beyond, where male desire decreases.

Society is the culprit here in terms of "expression" or "really being honest" about it. Society says: If men have a lot of sex, they are STUDS! If women have a lot of sex, they are SLUTS! This starts in the adolecent and sometimes pre-teen years and eventually carries over into adulthood.

Everything that I wrote about in my previous post on "sex drive" is truth.

If the woman you are with wants it less than you, then you are doing something wrong. Whether it be physical or emotional, you are doing something wrong. UNLESS, like I said above, there is a history of abuse or mental illness.

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