I don't know nor do I care what your sex drive is. But I do know that generally men's' sex drive is stronger then women's'. Now, you may chose to ignore it, but I think that most reasonable people (whether they like or hate porn) would agree with that premise.

Look at the original posters question. She states that " [color:"green"] As my situation in not as huge as some of the other posts I have read, it still upsets me. Today I found out that my husband of 1 year looks at porn on the internet..... Our sex life is good. He doesnt complain and says that its not about that. He says he loves me, loves how I look, and loves our sex life. He says he does it out of boredom or because he needs to relieve stress when im not there..... I am very hurt by this, and it makes me feel like he betrayed me. ... And for the men out there, is this normal, or should I be worried? I am scared it will develope into more.[/color]"

She wants to know what she can do. You go on how porn is evil and how it destroyed thousands of marriages (e.g., 19:10, 22 Nov 2005). What you are doing is scaring the daylights out of the original poster, creating problems where there may not be any. This is NOT very helpful. Her description of her situation is NOT like your description of your situation.

My view is, yes, she can battle him on this issue, but that there is another option: although she may dislike porn, it may be simpler just to let him use it on his own time. She stated that it does NOT effect their sex life. He may very well be using porn as she suggests: that he does it out of boredom, or when he wants to relieve stress when she is not there. I wrote that she need not be threatened by it, and that it is normal for some guys to use porn. He simply may be one of millions of guys who have a healthy sexual relationship with his wife, instead of the thousands of guys who blame porn on all their ills in their relationship. She may simply explore the second option. That's all that I am saying.

Hi Breaking thread., Yes he does have a nerve telling those of us directly affected by this issue all about our marriages.......Like you it robbed us of our intimacy, taught my h total disrespect for the scarednedd of his partner and sexuality. It was a huge intimacy destryer. This makes sense as our couselor told us that porn us contributes to intimacy problems and appeals most to those with pre existing issues in this area. So I guess its a catch 22.
Pieta I agree with you, This problem is really only starting to esculate to the seriousness of some situation over the last few year. This is attensted to by the increasing post and couselors discussing the issue. Whilst there may not be a revolt for years.. I believe that whilst once it was enough to be an everyday wife and display it in the best possible way. The increased porn access and severity of it really is changing that within a lot of marriages. I see that the most deeply effected will probably those into the near future. Marriages that do not involve weekly (5-10 minutes or more a week) are unlikely to be impoacted. Your husbands disinerest in this pretty much indicates it will not become a problem within your marriage. Unfortunately for many of us our husbands are VERY interested. So much in fact that they are feeling regret that they are marraid to mere mortal women who bodies will change as they age and have pregnancies.


My expression of my views and sharing of experience is genuine and I have (as many will see ) laid myself open to further abuse by a certain menmber who continues to use chauvanistic views to invalidate my feelings.

Average
The OP has a right to know the possibilities that porn can lead to. If you dont like the fact of what many women state about the use of pornograpghy within THEIR marriages Sorry but thats your problem....

You have yet to tell me in what ways porn makes your wife happier except to state that you will be insatiable???? (hangon cant you masterbate without porn????Gee maybe you should see someone about that addiction????)

Average, I understand that looking at porn makes you feel powerful, I understad that attacking me and any other woman who challenges your god given right to denegrate half the poulation is necessary for you to maintain this feeling of power.

How your wife correlates your using of images other women for your sexual gratification with a fulfilling and commited marriage is beyond me.

Clearly you have MAJOR issues with your masculainity and women........Any man who feel that looking at naked women he does not even know having all manner of strange and persverse things done to them and really really believes they enjoy it (and then defends this behaviour) must.


The truth is that no matter how you justify your use of porn YOU are the one missing out on a relationship of TOTAL commitment to your partner. Incidently you are also missing out on so much you could learn from women if only you were prepared to listen

Sadly I am very aware that I receive your next attack shortly hereafter, after all Im a woman with an opinion that is different than yours and in your world that is obviously unacceptable.

Boy are we in big trouble when people like you consider themselves advocates of gender equality.

Sorry, letmejustsay, this is hogwash. I HAVE validated your feelings about this subject.

I wrote: "Look, letmejustsay, I understand your point of view. It seems that you are really passionate about it." (24 Nov 2005, 9:03). This certainly was validation.

I wrote: "letmejustsay, I understood (though did not agree with) your posting..." (25 Nov 2005, 11:45) Another validation.

I even wrote: "Your argument, that porn is evil because it has a negative effect on all women, every day, is much more persuasive" (25 Nov 2005, 12:47) Just how much more validation do you need? What more can I say to validate your view point and your feelings?

I also validated your point of view in other postings. See, for example my postings on the support of battle against sexual discrimination (22 Nov 2005, 20:31). I have stated that "if a woman is totally against porn, then I agree that there simply should be no porn in the house. Period.", a position which is in line with your feelings (my posting 24 Nov 2005, 2:50). I expanded on this view point elsewhere (22 Nov 2005, 10:18)

How can you state that I have not validated your feelings?

However, it is you, letmejustsay, who has not validated MY feelings. You totally disregarded anything that I posted.

It is you who wrote that I lack "an inkling of intelligence" (your post, 22 Nov 2005, 16:33).

It is you who wrote "don't you dare tell me as a women how porn effects me...." (your post 22 Nov 2005, 19:10). That certainly did not validate my view point. You told me to that I essentially had no right as a man to speak on the subject. And you CALL ME SEXIST? Look in the mirror to see a person of double standards.

It is you who stated that men like me makes you "understand why many women are loosing respect for men" (your post, 22 Nov 2005, 19:10)

It is you who wrote that I pretty much have no right to speak on this issue to begin with: "don't you dare it does not tell us a messages." (your post 22 Nov 2005, 19:43). Further "you have no idea" And "I feel that trying to have a rational discussion with you is futile .." Do you call that validation of my feelings and of my views?

Not only did you disrespect me, but you also disrespected by W, stating that she is a "insecure woman" who is "too scared to stand up" to me.

It is you who stated that "I am done speaking with average as long as he defends porn." (23 Nov 2005, 17:55) Yeah, I'll respect his views as long as his views don’t conflict with mine. Nice validation, indeed!

It is you who writes me a series of questions of my views, and then simply attacks them, instead of considering them (24 Nov 2005, 5:44)

It is you who wrote that "This whole argument about men needing this is rubbish." (25 Nov 2005, 21:48) Another nice validation... NOT!

It is you who wrote "I will once again for the final time excuse myself from addressing you. Whilst at on epoint I entered it thinking we may have some intelligent dialogue..." (26 Nov 2005, 1:18) yeah, real nice validation..

I could go on. But what would be the point, letmejustsay. You state that I don't validate you point of view, when I clearly had. You hold yourself as taking "the moral highground, being idealist" (25 Nov 2005, 17:26), but in reality you simply did not validate my point of view. You did not validate my feelings.

[color:"red"]Can you please let me know why one should not label you a "hypocrite"? [/color]

Look, I understand that you are trying to state that I am not capable of sexually satisfying a women. A pure ad hominem attack. Oh, well....


We have a very good relationship. We make love regularly. We are both very satisfied. I do not insist that she match my level of sexual drive; I respect her boundaries, her needs. She understands and respects my sex drive. And she is certainly not threatened by images or writing in magazines or on the internet. She knows that such fantasies are just fantasies, they just relieve extra stress, and that they satisfy a guy's need just as a soap opera may satisfy some woman's other EN. And she knows that no porn can or ever could replace her. Sorry to disappoint you, letmejustsay, but we are both very happy.

We don't have problems, because I certainly would never be an insensitive jerk to "compare the body of his wife ...with 20yr old porn stars" (see your post, 22 Nov 2005 19:43).

We don't have problems because she would never describe me as unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality as some women would: "my h being one of them , constantly comparing and complaining" (see your post, 23 Nov 2005, 17:55)

We don't have problems because my W is sexually secure, and understands that porn, just like other films, is a fantasy, and not a documentary, and is not jealous of women's bodies in porn, like some women are (e.g.: "(I dont know about you but If I look around the supermarket I dont see many us mommys looking like the porn women, myself included). When do we get celebrated, respected and admired??????? (see your post, 23 Nov 2005, 16:52).)

We don't have problems, because we can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. We do not "feel regret that we are marraid to mere mortal women who bodies will change as they age and have pregnancies" (see your post 26 Nov 2005, 22:32)

And we don't use porn as the scapegoat for marital problems as some people naively do (see your post 25 nov 2005, 21:48).

You have GOT to be kidding, right?!

IT IS YOU WHO CANNOT ACCEPT OTHER PEOPLE's VIEWS. Not me.

I very plainly several times stated that original poster can solve her problem by either banishing porn from her house, or learn to accept her partner's use of it. I am very much for letting people chose their own choices.

I stated several times that I understood your point of view.

But it is you who simply cannot accept porn. It is you who is totally closed to anything that I wrote. It is you who thinks that men who use porn automatically must not be able to satisfy their spouses, and cannot consider any other view point. It is you who degrades women as "insecure" if they chose to let her spouses use porn.

My attitude is that if porn is harmful in a marriage then you should get rid off it, but use it if it is beneficial. Your attitude is: Average Guy's view point is wrong. In your narrowminded view, it does not matter if people are happy, they must be educated and converted to your view point.

(For a person who supposedly studied Indigenous issues (25 NOV 2005 23:54) , and who undoubtedly learned about what horrible things the though well meaning, paternalistic attitudes of "we-know-what-is-best-for-others" did to the Indigineous peoples, you certainly don't learn from history well.)

Why can't you just let people make their choices? Why do you have to force your views down their throats? Why can't you just accept that people have different view on certain things? Why do you have to try to control people's viewing habits, even thoughts? You even have the audacity to try to dictate how a guy may or may not masturbate? Are you for real?

Sorry, letmejustsay, it is you who is totally closed minded.

And you don’t even see it!!

Averageguy I could sit here and pull out all your rude disrespectful quotes that have shown chauvanism and a contempt for women, but frankly why bother.

You state that you would never be and insenstive jerk (only one of your insults to my h who is obviously a stronger man than you) and never compare your wifes body to the porn stars????then why do you have a need to look at their bodies anyway???isnt your w enough for you??????

Clearly you do not have a statisfactory sex life , otherwise you would have no need for porn.

Go on with your patheitic views that show contempt for women , regardless of what you ell me I could never believe any woman could be happy being married to amn like you.......


If masterbating to porn is so acceptable to you then do you share the fact that you have this pasttime with friends and family....Your w is foolish enough if she really believes your rubbish but GOD HELP YOUR DAUGHTERS>>>>>>>


I have NO MORE to say to you......as my h has just said 'he's not worthy of your time'. Now dont you have someones naked daughter to go off and masterbate too????


Letmejust say signing off hereby making a commitment to herself to not read anymore of averages posts...

How about we try to have an intellectual convo about porn use that might help this poster instead of attacking each other? Morality is different for everyone depending on their religious, cultural and social backgrounds....so discussing porn use from a standpoint of right and wrong will simply create conflict and muddy the discussion.

Is there such a thing as porn addiction? Well, that's a hotly debated subject, but there is some real evidence to support that, as well as some compelling empirical evidence that support that view. Here on MB....we don't just have wives showing up and saying "my H uses porn!" We also have lots of men who say "I'm a recovering porn addict." "I can't stop using porn" "My porn use is ruining my marriage." If you plug "sexual addiction" into your google engine, you'll be shocked at how much help is available for folks who are struggling with this issue....and since most services grow out of a need for them....that's pretty telling. It's interesting that "porn addiction" is showing up in places like "wikipedia" and other online dictionaries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction Aside from that....there is plenty of research, including research with fMRI's that measure brain activity that clearly show that porn use stimulates the natural opiods created in our own bodies (look at the research of Bartels). And unlike substance abuse....where you can get away from the drug...you can't get away from your own body and porn images can be stored forever in your brain.

None of that changes the fact that most folks safely and recreationally use porn....and will not become compulsive users. I personally have an objection to porn use that has nothing to do with morality, religion or squeamishness about sexuality. I think the industry itself is exploitive and sleezy and as long as there is a market for increased stimulation, things like child porn will not go away. As a marriage advocate, I have an objection to how it can interfere with real intimacy between husband and wife. Masturbating to porn is such an easy release, that it makes the sexual dance between man and wife sometimes appear slow and clumsy. Let's face it....real sex is more complicated....so I dislike seeing men or women just avoiding real intimacy out of laziness. While AG may not compare his wife to porn stars....I have seen and heard many men who do....and many wives who believe they do. I think porn use should be POJAd like the other stuff in a marriage so that everyone is respected.

In AG's case, if his wife is enthusiastic about his use....who am I to say that there's something wrong with that....but that doesn't mean he can make blanket statements that it's good/right for every marriage, because it simply isn't.

According to researchers....dose matters. According to research by the late Alvin Cooper of the Silicon Valley Psychotherapy Center, people engaged in any kind of online sexual activity for less than an hour a week said it had little impact on their lives; people using it for 11 or more hours a week said it affected both their self-image and their feelings about their partners. Anywhere between one and ten hours a week is ambiguous terrain. It may just be a way to release stress, but as Cooper has pointed out, "the Internet is... a very powerful force that people can quickly develop a problem with, like crack cocaine."

Michelle Weiner Davis has a book out called the "Sex Starved Marriage" that has some good advice and guidelines for folks trying to navigate this issue. The important thing to remember is don't panic!! Most men use porn at some point....and it's up to each couple to decide mutually how much is/if any is okay for their sitch.

Starfish,

everything you say is accurate. It oes appear that increased use leads to a greater likelihood of problems. Additionally I think that the increase in more explicit porn may also mean that issues MAY devlop within a shorter time. In our case it was brief weekly porn use but over a period of many years.
Despite what porn has done to my marriage (and the marriage of many others ) I am aware that many people do feel they use it without ill effect.
Unfortunately as you point out the amount of marriages negatively impacted is increasing.
I will keep my eye open for the book you mention sounds interesting. Cheers LMJS

I'm sorry but CLEARLY you are looking at this from a woman's point of view that refuses to believe that (at least some) men can think in ways that women do not. In the same way that it's a mistake to expect women to think and act like a man, it's a mistake to decide that men are out of line if they do not think like women.

I think what is fair to say is that men have instincts which are not necessarily good ones and should be overcome. A similar instinct for a woman might be to (this is kind of a lame comparison but) nag. But realizing it's hurtful to the relationship, she overcomes it. I think it's fair to look at porn the same way-- as normal desires for a guy but hurtful to the bigger picture of family and society.

But I do not like that you are telling him that his sex life is lacking or that his wife is not good enough for him. As a guy, I know for a fact that the two really have nothing to do with each other.

Of course I look at it from a womans perspective after all I am a woman. I undertand what your saying though.. what I wrote was probably not articulated in the way it should have been because I was sick of average throwing comments at me like

Saying porn is not disrepectful

That men only use it for 5 - 10 minutes a day so whats the problem?

Saying my husband is an inconsiderate jerk and that porn is an excuse for our marriage problems.

Saying that I am jealous of other womens bodies.

He was wrong on all these counts and after what Ive been through I have had enough ....

Porn is disresepctful to women in general as far as I am concerned.

Yes my H acted like an inconsderate jerk when he was using porn in the past.


NO , porn was not an excuse for our marriage problems....IT WAS OUR MARRIAGE PROBLEM


I am actually very happy with my body and proud of it, it is healthy, fit and has brough 4 beautiful lives into the world, why on earth would average imply I should be jealous because I wear the badges of motherhood and my H acted like a jerk by making comparisons, Its upseting that he obviously feels a mothers body is somehow inferior to a 'porn body'


Having said all this, I do understand what your saying in that many men see things differently. All Im saying is many women see it the same way I do and its not a nice feeling for those of us that feel we live in a world where those we love disrepect us and feel its OK because 'they think differently. '

Well, of course. You have a right to present your point of views, but my views are labeled as sexist, or worse, if they don't conform with your views. You can have woman's opinion, but I don't have a right to have a man's opinion.

How enlightening!

And you still have not validated my viewpoint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Oh, so I see. You are sick of me saying that your H was an inconsiderate jerk, but in fact you admit that he was an inconsiderate jerk. As a matter of fact, pretty much all of the other posters who responded to your original post several months ago had the same opinion.

Interesting!

No Average I totally agree my h ACTED like an inconsiderate jerk when using porn but now he no longer uses it he is the gentleman I once married.

Just like you say 'and yes there is a difference'. Hey maybe he compartmentalised his jerk self lol

Average--



At last, a point of agreement between the two of us. This whole thread has gone so far astray, I bet it ceased to be of any help to the original poster long ago. That's why I stopped chiming in awhile back. But PLEASE pay attention to my following point:

How do you think most porn misuse/overuse/compulsions/addictions start??? I'm no expert. All I know is what happened in my own marriage. Several years ago, I could have been ssp. My husband could have been her husband. Our situation THEN was very much like the one she describes NOW with hur husband. My H used it once in awhile. I felt threatened by it at first, and learned to look the other way after awhile. And slowly but surely, it very nearly destroyed our marraige.

Can some couples accept the occasional use of porn in their relationship and keep it an an "accpetable" level over time? I suppose it's possible. But in my case, when the going got tough in our marriage, the lure of the porn as a quick and easy escape sucked my husband in. It became a way to numb himself. And eventually, a terrible, destructive compulsion. An addiction. And it happened so gradually, that we didn't see what was happening and deal with it until we had a crisis on our hands.

I wish someone had "scared the daylights" out of me and my husband years ago. Would that have prevented what happened to us? Who knows. But at least I might not have felt so blind-sided by it.

Last night, my husband sat with me and cried. He is heartsick over the lost years and all the damage done to our relationship. I have forgiven him. Completely. But he has not yet forgiven himself. Women aren't the only ones who get hurt by porn. Men can be deeply hurt by it too. IT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO RUIN LIVES. That SHOULD scare the daylights out of all of us.

Period.

--SC

Yes I really do believe porn can be at least as damaging to men as it can be to women, I too have seen what my h has been through and wouldnt wish this on anyone.

I was wondering how one finds help groups? My husband looks at porn daily we have got in constant arguments about sites like Ratemyfaceadult.com or Ratemybody.com and recently about Myspace.com He always gets angry and dismisses my feelings but he has made comments to women about their bodies and things he wants to do to them. I get upset and he deletes them but only to go finad another site to do it. Why cant he just stay off of them? He has had 2 affairs in teh past and I dont think I have ever been able to heal from them because this stuff always comes up. I do not trust him at all. I dont even know how I feel anymore I am just growing tired of feeling like the lowest peice of crap on the earth.......

Does he want to stop? If he does and you are looking for a group that will hold him accountable there is one called xxxchurch.com

If you are christians, there are several good books Every Man's Battle is very good.

I'm sorry you are hurting.