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And when do I get to see him if we can't share Sat/Sun together? How does one date long-distance and only see each other maybe on a Saturday afternoon? How do you build a relationship that way?

LL:

My Husband and I we were separated by thousands of miles for at least 18 months before we married! We spoke on the phone daily, met up on vacation every 8 months or so, but we managed to build an excellent relationship!

I found that speaking on the phone kept the conversation on track about important things. The phone was used to discuss important matters that would've ultimately been a problem if we didn't get them out of the way early. We didn't spend "empty" hours together, watching television or going to movies. Spending time together is excellent, but if you can't, you just have to have faith in your relationship. Now that we're married, we spend ALL our time together (with the exception of work hours) and we never get on each other's nerves!

You can make your relationship work if both of you feel that it's worth it. The moment that you or your partner begin thinking that it would be easier with someone else, you'll know that it's just not meant to be. Distance can determine how strong your feelings are for each other......

Excellent advice aeri!

I particularly like this, because I think it is appropriate for LL's situation:


I sense that this is where they are now, as is typical after the infatuation phase wears off. And the LAST thing to do when this happens is to think that marriage will resolve these doubts and issues; it will only mask them.

AGG

Well, he came...and he went. Yep, he's on his way back home, before any of my family starts arriving.

Tense beyond belief. He just sat and sort of nervously smiled at me. We tried to talk. Small talk gave way to the topic of the moment. He's say, "LL, this isn't the time." And then we'd sit there, and one of us would bring something up again.

Moral: He just really doesn't see any way on God's green earth that we can put the cookies back in the cookie jar and go on. He's sees nothing but frustration, frustration, and more frustration. He's right...once you start down that path, how do you just turn it around to "Hey, let's watch a movie and eat popcorn on every date?" We're 40, we know what it's like, and we know what it's like with each other. And we were liking it.

So, as the frustration elevated, he finally said, "LL, maybe we shouldn't complicate matters by trying to act in front of your family like there's nothing wrong." I could tell it was very difficult for him to be here, and he admitted as much about getting in the car this morning and heading over. He did it out of obligation, because he doesn't not follow through on promises.

But it made sense for him to leave, so as hard as it was, I agreed. I wanted so much to just hold him, and so put my arms around him. He seemed tense, I asked him if it bothered him. His response (which you'll all agree to): "LL, the more emotion you show right now, the more it's going to make me want to run fast the other direction." (Goes right back to Dr. Harley's info...you'd think I could remember that and back off.)

Anyway, no tears, and I tried my best to smile and keep my voice from shaking when he asked if I would be okay...that I wasn't going to freak out for my family or something after he left. No, if it takes me downing a couple Xanax (I didn't tell him that), I'll be okay. It's just going to make my weekend stink, because I know what's coming down the pipe. He just doesn't want to do it to me today, with my family deal and all, I'm fairly sure.

So, the decision, which was his, was that I need to come over to his place on Sunday. No emailing this stuff, no phone conversations trying to resolve it. I come over Sunday, and we decide what we're doing. Given that I don't see myself just saying, "Okay, let's just keep going at it like we always have" and given that he's not ready to be frustrated, and that he made it VERY clear that my other options (I believe meaning marriage a little quicker) are NOT options for him....

I am seeing only one other option, and I'm NOT ready to face it. But Sunday is the day.

I asked if he wanted some alone time to just sort out his feelings and think between now and then, without phone calls and stuff. He said "no", that I should call him tonight after things settle down and people leave.

(And to make it all so darned much worse, he comes in today sporting the little beard thing that he's been telling me he grows every winter that I like so much on guys. And it looks REALLY GOOD on him. So I'm sitting there looking at this guy I love, and he's looking mighty good, and all I can think of is how he's going to be out of my life because I screwed it all up.)

I know, let go and let God, but right now I'm having a darned tough time. I'm hosting a family dinner, the guy they were going to meet has gone home, I ache for him and for all that's happening between us, and I have to make like I"m happy and entertain these people when I feel like falling in bed crying.

AGG,

I don't think that for me it will be any easier with anyone else, unless there's some guy out there who actually shares my beliefs about waiting until marriage for sex--and I'm truly thinking the only ones that exist are either total geeks or lunatics (the ones that aren't yet married by 40 and there's a reason), or they're already married to some wonderful Christian woman.

I do believe BF is a believer. And even he said today, we have pretty much 99% of what we need to have a great relationship. But that 1% that I just pulled away is a huge thing.

His latest statement is that maybe had I been in a few more relationships (something even he doesn't really see the point in, because they just cause pain when you break up), I might have a different view on the sex thing. I don't necessarily think so. I may have just failed more times.

Anyway, sicker than sick. Gotta go make happy for company will be here shortly.

LL

[color:"blue"] GNP [/color] - if you happen to browse this thread again,

Somewhere within this lengthy thread I have, you wrote me, and you said:

Of course, faith and divine direction are not as simple as I may be making them sound. Very much in the vein of that experience, I have found myself in a place in life where I am confident that I am on the right road for me, but that road itself makes no sense to me at all, and indeed seems to be going nowhere but into frustration and loneliness and pain. If I am honest, I must acknowledge that in my heart that's where I believe it will end up. Despite all the evidence of God's guidance in my life, and the logical conclusion that His direction must be to some purpose, I can no longer claim to feel that He can or will ever bring that purpose to pass.

I walk in faith anyway.

Truly, you seem like a very strong person. I feel very weak right now. I feel incredible pain because I broke someone's heart (right or wrong).

But the one thought that keeps coming back throughout my life situations, even this self-inflicted one, is that I have this feeling in my gut that God wants for me the one thing I am the most afraid of--never being able to share my life and myself with a Christian man who will be the spiritual leader of our home, and who will love me and be committed to me for the rest of our lives. I prayed for it for probably the last 5-10 years of my marriage and never truly gave up hope until he walked away with OW.

Then I thought "maybe this is God's plan". It's SO hard to even find someone half compatable, and so when I found this guy who was so right in SO many ways, I thought this was it. But I feel God saying it's not (and I think that will be confirmed when I do my drive to his place on Sunday per his request, so we can "discuss things".)

It breaks my heart. I know I'm suffering because I allowed myself to get into a situation I shouldn't have been in, and we suffere the consequences of our actions.

But how do you go on and stay positive, facing that feeling that you'll always be alone?

You didn't screw it up...you made a conscience decision for YOU and now YOU have to live with it. He can't live that way...that's HIS conscience decision. Neither are willing to compromise so it's time to move on. Why drag it out any further for either of you.

Glad to hear there weren't any tears! Very strong on your part!!

Hugs!

LL,
I don't think you screwed up at all either. You just became aware of a mistake that you were making that you couldn't live with... GOOD FOR YOU!!! You took the steps to change it, and if he can't deal with it, then he isn't the one for you! It just means God's got something BETTER in store for you. Will you be alone? Maybe you need to be right now... but it doesn't mean forever. Take care of you, get yourself in a place where you won't falter again. Stay on MB!!!! Now we now if you go away you might be struggling...uh-oh! Now I've got your number and know where you live!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The thing is, you can now live with your decision without your guilt and shame... you are FREE!!! And after meeting you, hon, I've got to tell you, that I think it's his loss...you are definitely a fine woman, and I'm excited for your future and so glad that you have chosen the path that you need for you... a closer walk with God, HE will never fail you, us poor humans ALWAYS will.
If sex won out over YOU, then BF is a fool...
Take care of you!!! Keep praying...be still and wait for what God's plan is for you...He will reveal it soon enough! If you need me, you know how to reach me. I'll be thinking of you and you'll be in my prayers!!!

Alluring & Drita,

Thanks for your support of my decision. I really think if I were to give in and take it all back just to keep him, the guilt and eventually the resentment would eat me up.

As for BF, I did call as he requested this evening and we had another of our hour-long talks. About half of it was about poker and Surviver and other stuff, so it was lighter. But then, and actually he was the one who started down the path, we got back on our subject.

Not necessarily any better news than before, because he's still just thinking it's an impossible thing with our distance and the time involved before either of us could move, and he's still saying he doesn't want this to cause either of us to make irrational decisions (which in his eyes would be to ever get married and do a distance marriage).

But, a couple things that made me feel a little better about my decision came out of it--sort of helped me to feel like it I wasn't 100% to blame for all the pain flying around:

First, he said that he's used to being the one having more of the control in a relationship (i.e., in his marriage, his wife was very introverted, so he did everything financial/business related/etc. until she got involved with someone else and took control by divorcing him and she's pretty much maintained control, by controlling custody and visitation, ever since.) There have been other times when he's had control yanked from him. And so while he still continues to tell me he understands WHY it is that I feel the way I do and he doesn't expect or want it to change my beliefs, it feels like control has once again been yanked from him without his input, and that may be making it more difficult for him to deal with.

But the better thing that came out of it was this (which I won't remember come Sunday when/if he decides we're done because it's just too difficult):

He told me that the decision I've made based on my beliefs, which he knows is a difficult one for me, and my unwillingness to compromise is proving to him that I am the woman I said I was back when we first started talking in July. His words, "Your actions in August didn't really show that." (Late August-when we first started sleeping together). Now, granted--he's been very happy with that "August" person and that's the problem now, but I truly DO want to be the Christian woman I told him I was back when we met. I SO wish it could be with him, but regardless, I want to be that person.

Of course now his desire for a Christian woman (he was even searching some Christian dating sites when he met me) is coming back to bite him.

He said something to the effect that that was what's making this more difficult, because I am proving to be who I said I was and he wants to be able to prove that he's who he said he was, too, but he just doesn't see how we can do this for 2+ years. (I don't either...)

So, basically we're pretty much back at square one (and I'll probably wake up tomorrow shaking again), except that this means at least there's a teeny, tiny part of his brain saying, "Okay, I may actually have the Christian woman that I was looking for. Do I want to give her up and find someone who is more willing now, but perhaps not the right person to be married to?"

I guess I'm not totally certain that Sunday is the end. However, I'm not holding my breath because he's just so darned certain that we can't maintain and that he is not able/willing to deal with the sexual tension and frustration. One day at a time--right now we're set to talk on the phone again tomorrow night; he's to call me this time.

And Drita my lady, like I said, you DON'T look your age!!
Thanks again for helping me pull off the holiday festivities, even if they didn't end up being very festive.

LL

Yep...woke up, first thought that hit me was "Oh my gosh...2+ years dating and celibate. There's no way this is possible with a guy who doesn't even share my views on it." Panic attack hit again.

It's not helping that I did decided to go back on my A/D's which always make me feel like crap for the first couple weeks, AND that I had this awesome dream last night where BF and I agreed to work on this for several months, which meant he was contemplating dropping his 2 year clause down to 1 year. It was one of those really vivid, real dreams that make you wake up feeling really good, and then you realize it's fake. (I used to have those about my ex, when were still married and I was hoping he'd not leave me for OW.) They stink!

LL

Well, he's still calling. We talked again tonight. Still hesitant and tense and tip-toeing around. But we were able to have some football talk and some other small talk about our days that went okay.

Then he asked me if I was still coming on Sunday and what time that might be. He warned me that his parents have not been told that he didn't end up meeting my family at thanksgiving, so they still think things are peachy between us.

I told him yes, I was still planning on coming over, though am quite nervous about what he might have to say. I can't quite remember how it all played out, but he reminded me that he has a high sex drive (yep, know that), a VERY high sex drive (yep, still know that). And he asked what would happen if at some point he perhaps tested our boundaries, and what exactly are our boundaries.

Well, I explained, my boundary is "no sex". "Understood", he says. So we sort of discussed other things (don't be thinking Clinton and the Oval Office here!) and that they might be alternate possibilities to at least alleviate some of the tension. The problem, I told him, is that if we're not careful we'll get to that point of no return and end up back in bed again, and if that happens, we're going to have to reassess this whole thing again.

Point being, he's NOT happy. My best guess is that he feels like his happy life has just been up-ended, one of his most fave activities has been taken away, and he's feeling a lot of frustration and loss of control. And I totally feel for him!

But I said, "BF, I want to obey God. If we are meant to be together, I want it to be with God's blessing." He understands that. I think he even agrees on some level that what we have been doing isn't right in God's eyes, but when emotions and hormones get involved, it gets all messed up and hard to think straight and he'd rather rationalize his way out of it than have to give it up.

So, Sunday at some point I'll see him for a little while. I don't know about anything beyond that. It sounds right now like he's entertaining thoughts of at least trying. But it's going to be like re-inventing our relationship, and because it was a one-sided decision (mine), it's a huge obstacle. He really still sounds fairly defeated.

So, what do I do? How do I not blow this, and yet stick to my boundaries? I know we moved too fast, but I really do love this guy! There's a smidgen of hope. I don't want to screw it up.

By the way: One of you suggested "Boundaries in Dating" as a good book. I went out and bought it at B&N tonight. (Actually, I read half of it in the store, and then decided I'd sat in the aisle and blocked it for long enough and got up and purchased.) I don't see BF reading it, but it's got good ideas for me. I just wish it gave more real-life ideas of what to do on dates and when developing a serious relationship, to stay away from sex, and how boundaries can be maintained.

LL

LL: I am hardly one to give advice since my life is about as screwed up as it gets, but you seem stronger in your last couple of posts. Keep up this attitude and you will be OK, with or without Mr. Wonderful.

Good luck tomorrow, and remember, no nervous breakdowns allowed!!

LL, I agree with starving-you DO sound a lot better than you did. I think the thing to do is just pray for guidance, and let it come-accept it, and that peace we've been looking for...you could use some of that.
Also, my other advice to you as I said the other day....just be YOU! Be who he likes to be with!
I have seen another book you could get-I think it was written for teenagers, but it would work here. It was something like "1001 things to do with out doin' it" or something like that... I'm sure it would be in the psychological self help section...So see, there are PLENTY of other things to do.
I think just the fact that this guy is still thinking, still in it, says a lot. He doesn't want to lose you either! So hang in there, be you, and be willing to discuss other things that ARE within your beliefs that you can do... Sounds like there needs to be comprimise on both sides. (not comprimising your faith, mind you) but what you can do to alleviate some of his fears.
Good luck to you! Drive carefully!
I'll be anxious to hear how it went! Hang in there! It ain't over yet!

LL, You've made a decision about how you want to live your life. Instead of focusing on what you can or can't do for two years, remember "one day at a time". Live your life the way you've chosen today and tomorrow will take care of itself.

Hi LL,
I haven't chimed in yet, because I wasn't sure what all to say. But I want to share something with you.

I have been dating a man for several months. WHen we started dating he was not divorced yet. We got sexual, and after about 2 months of semi-regular sex I started really feeling the guilt and told him I didn't want to have sex again until after his divorce was final. Did he feel the same way? NO. He felt he was not marreid anymore, and that it wasn't a problem. Well, guess what? His response to my request: OK, and CM, don't compromise yourself for me.

So anyway, just because you have been sexual, doesn't mean that you can't stop and keep the relationship. We even still had some slumber parties, and did not get past kissing and cuddling.

I shared with him your recent dilemma, and asked him how he thought he would react NOW if I said I felt I couldn't have premarital sex, and it would be 2 years until we could again. His answer: OK.

It's a matter of respect. Does my BF love sex? Absolutely. Does he show love by sex? Of course, most men do. But he seems to care enough for me to respect whatever I decide, even when he DID NOT share the same belief, which he did not when I "cut him off" a few months back.

I do not share your belief that the physical relationship you and your bf are having is wrong. But I do want you have a BF who will respect your decision. And, BTW, I also gave him my news 'out of the blue" and he still was ok with it.

you need to feel ok with yourself. I'm not sure you do, whether you keep this relationship or not. You say you have boundaries but this is the second man you've crossed boundaries with. Somehow you've got to address that within yourself.

I hope your man does the right thing. Will it be difficult? Of course, you've both been sharing something special. Can it work? I think it can, if you both want it to. If he can't do that, he IS NOT the man for you.

CM

Hi gals,

Thanks for the support. I go from feeling a little better to feeling totally sick and nauseaus. I'm trying to figure out why that is. Part of it, I'm sure, is that I'm going back on my A/D's and each time I do that, I feel utterly cruddy for a week or two--extremely anxious and sick.

However, the more I talk to BF, while he really is trying to figure out a way to keep this moving forward and not include sleeping together, some of the compromises I'd suggested that he's now okay'd are starting to make me nervous, or just not feel right.

I don't think it's the suggestions themselves, because my intent was to try and help him with some of the excess sex drive but not taking it to sex. However, it's more his additude that is concerning me. I told him I'm willing to go along with it if I don't feel like he's constantly consumed with some kind of passionate lust that he can't control, and that it's sort of making me nervous that this is such a huge deal for him. It's almost like he can't or isn't willing to do anything to control it.

He just keeps saying, "LL, you don't know much about guys, do you? It's what we think of 24/7."

I know he wants me, but does he want me for me, because he loves me? Or does he want me because he's very sexually attracted to me and his desires are more important than anything else to him?

Does this make sense? In one sense, I never considered it a problem when he told me some time ago that he had a high sex drive. He was faithful to his wife for 17 years, and he's never had anything to do with porn or the like. But he's always had an outlet of some sort. Now he doesn't, and he's getting pretty emotional about it.

I'm a woman. I know I'm wired differently. First, although I truly enjoy sex and if I were in a marriage, I don't think I'd have a problem with daily. But it's someting that I don't constantly "lust" over. So I have a hard time understanding this.

He's said a couple times in frustration, "LL, I think if you'd date for a few years, you'd have a much better understanding of guys. Have you ever been in a long term relationship with a guy that wasn't sexual?" (The answer: no).

But I don't want to believe there's not a guy out there somewhere my age, widowed, or divorced because of infidelity on a spouse's part or because they were abandoned by a non-believer, who truly WON'T wait for marriage. But everyone in this world seems to think I"m nuts.

I'm very uneasy about things right now. I'm going to see him tomorrow afternoon/evening.

LL

If he didn't want you for you he certainly wouldn't be willing to put up with everything he's put up with so far. Guys can get sex any and every where. You are letting your mind wander again and you really need to stay focused.

MoG, good input, as always.

But your note reminds me of a time when I was in college, and my roommate told me that over the break he is flying back to India, and that when he comes back a couple of weeks later that he'll probably being his new wife.
Me: Congratulations! I did not know that you are even engaged!
Him: I am not.
Me: So just exactly how are you going to go, meet someone, fall in love, get engaged, arrange the wedding, and get married in a couple of weeks?
Him: Look AG, you don't understand. I am in the point of my life when I am ready to get married. My father prepared a dossier on about dozen women who he believes would be appropriate for me. My father and I will sit down, go through the girls bios, and pick the 3 or 4 best ones. Our family will invite each woman and their families to separate parties, where I'll get to talk to her for about 20 minutes. Afterwards, we'll pick. If both families agree, we'll have a wedding a couple of days later. No hard feelings with the other women.
Me: What? How can you do that? Arranged marriage? How do you know that you are compatible?
Him: My family knows who would be compatible with me more then anyone else. They know it better than even I would. They are in a much better position to judge if a woman will be happy with me, and vice versa, because they can see my faults as well as my good points. And they love me, so they are looking for my well being.
Me: That sound very sterile, and calculating. But what about love?
Him: Who you marry is a very important decision. It should indeed made in a very methodological and calculating manner. Emotions such as love should not enter into the equation, because people in love do not see and act necessarily in the best manner. You need to think about marriage from a logical point of view, and not through a cloud on confusing emotions. It truly is best if you chose your life long partner with your head and not with your heart or loins.
Me: OK, I guess it makes sense. But what about love? How can you get married to someone you don't know much about? How do you know you'll love her?
Him: Easy. If you are compatible, then love WILL grow. No two ways about it. Look, AG, if you go and get a puppy from a pound, you take it home, and love for the puppy will grow. Same way with a spouse. If you can get used to a dog, you surely can get used to a spouse.

And you know, I think that the system of arranged marriages would be preferable to the Western system, where people marry out of love (which is the worst reason to get married) and where half the marriages end in divorce.

Although Dr. Harley and other wonderful people have studied relationships in detail, I think that Chris Rock summarized men's needs rather succinctly and pointedly:

A man need just 3 things from a relationship with a woman:
1. Sex,
2. Food, and
3. To be left alone.
Crude, but not inaccurate.

LL,

The way that I view it (I am sure that others will correct me on this), is that when a women waits too long in a relationship, then weird things start to float through a guy's head:
(1) is she afraid of intimacy? Does she have some emotional baggage which will interfere with future lovemaking? I want no part of that!
(2) what is wrong with me? Why does she not want me in? Am I doing something wrong?
(3) Is she purposefully delaying intimacy? If she does this now, then she'll surely play these games during our relationship.
(4) does she have zero or very low interest in sex? Will I be able to be happy in such a relationship?

Bump- we're waiting for an update to your visit today, LL.

AG,

Interestnig input. I actually agree with you on arranged marriages seeming to have better odds than Western marriages. I also think that marriages of 30-40 years or more ago, where the dating/courting period was probably a lot shorter than the 2-3 years people often take now (time which frequently includes living together) lasted better than today's marriages do. It's all about commitment. I maybe agree with you on your "three things men need, too". However, while I can see a guy's point on the other and understand people don't share my beliefs, but I believe if a woman is upfront with a guy at the beginning of the relationship and explains WHY she is withholding, that should count for something. In my case, my BF is well aware that I am interested, that I don't have intimacy issues, and that I don't lack a sex drive. It was my beliefs that finally pulled my head out of the sand, and I asked to bring it to a halt.

As for today's update:

I had to take my son back to college, and BF is sort of but not really on the way. So we had decided last night during our painful phone call, that at whatever time I took my son back, if I wanted to come over for an hour or two, I could.

So, I dropped off my son, and then very hesitantly called BF to see if he was still up to the visit, as I was about an hour away. He said, come on over, he was at his parents' watching football.

So, I went, and put on my "game face" like nothing was wrong and went knocking at their door.

We hung around over there for a few hours which for me took some of the tension away, because his parents don't know of our issues at all. And then once the game was over, he invited me back to his apartment, which was much scarier at first.

We watched a movie together and snuggled. I watched him do some stuff on the computer. We talked a little. There was one point where he mentioned how hard it was not to want to do things, because of his feelings for me, he wants to just sort of melt into me--I was well aware he was struggling, but he didn't push me. He told me how excited he was when he got my call today, and knew he was going to get to see me.

We weren't perfect angels, but all clothing remained on. It was PG rated at best, much better than we've done in the past. It's just that I can tell how difficult it is for him, and I don't feel that it's right for me to just tempt him either, and frankly, just being there seems to do that. And we only spent about 3 hours together alone at his place.

I really do think that as he's digested all this, that he does on some level understand why I'm doing it, and does agree it should be this way. He said on last night's call something about not being surprised that I was the one who brought it up, that women tend to be the ones who wake up and smell the roses, and that men tend to just ignore them and walk on by.

And once I got home and called to let him know I'd made it, he sounded a little more tense and made the comment about 3 cold showers. All I could say was, "One day at a time, BF." I have no idea how to make it through the next date. But I do believe at this point that he's still willing to try. I'm just worried that it will get the best of him and he'll throw up his hands and give up.

I'm trying so hard to have faith, that if this is supposed to be, it will be. I just wish he wasn't so dead set on no long-distance marriage for any length of time, or that 2-year minimum thing. If we weren't looking at so darned long, if it were just several months, I'd feel a lot better.

The scary thing is that if it's not supposed to be, I'm going to need some extreme strength to get through it. I truly do love him, and it becmes more evident all the time.

LL