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Earth to DI -- you threw a tantrum right on this thread not even two days ago.





That was far from "blowing my stack". I got aggrevated by the continued insistence that I am a wife beater and gave a sarcastic smart as$ reply.

If that is your definition of "blowing my stack" then I will never make you happy.

As far as doing something..... I work on myself. I only go to IC once a week. By myself, I check myself, my behavior, trying to change my habits and ultimately my behavior.

Last night I was with a friend watching a basketball game at a bar. I started my old way of having fun by criticizing other people, being obnoxius and sarcastic, not to the other people, but with my friend. When I started, I actually stopped mid-sentence and told my friend I shouldn't be doing that. That I need to stop having a laugh at others expense.

At home I try to actually listen to my kids. Hear what they say. Validate their feelings. I still have a ways to go with them. They are conditioned from both me and my W to ignore us until we yell.
My kids have noticed a change. Both boys have told me they notice my change of less yelling and critical behavior to one of more carefree joking around, having fun, laughing.

I continue to hug my W goodnight every night, before we go off to our seperate beds, and I hug her and say goodbye in the morning when I leave for work.

When at work, i have been making a conscious effort to go out and interact with others, be cheerful to them, be self depreciating about myself, try to make the effort to be the one initiating interaction with others instead of waiting for others to make the effort to interact with me.

I have been trying to change my general outlook to one of empathy for others, to be less critical, to not ignore the plank in my eye while pointing out the speck in others eyes.

It's a start. Gotta start somewhere.

And if my W was here, she would have to say that regardless of her attitude towards me, I have been nothing less than pleasant towards her for the past 2 weeks.

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It's a start. Gotta start somewhere.





May I suggest that you use your imagination and pretend there is a camera on you at all times ... and behave in a way that you would not mind the entire country viewing on the evening news.

If you find yourself experiencing tightness in your throat muscles, clenching fists or breathing harder than usual ... take a break ... go for a short walk, do jumping jacks ... pull yourself out of that early anxious feeling that probably has been what triggered explosive anger in the past.

Anger is usually a response to an earlier emotion that you could not face ... like fear of abandonment, or embarrasment for feeling cheated, .... stuff like that. The trick is to catch yourself trying to escape the primary emotion, and take a look at the primary emotion ... facing things tends to take the anxiety out of the situation.

It is very unrealistic for someone to tell you not to experience anger ... you're human. Can you think of an alternative ACTIVITY to engage in whenever you feel anger rising?

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Quote:

Quote:

Earth to DI -- you threw a tantrum right on this thread not even two days ago.





That was far from "blowing my stack". I got aggrevated by the continued insistence that I am a wife beater and gave a sarcastic smart as$ reply.

If that is your definition of "blowing my stack" then I will never make you happy.






Ok, so according to you, you're planning on never stopping this kind of behavior. In that case BT should get out fast because you have not intention of becoming fit to be married. Even the above is more of your same old same old -- no one actually called you a "wife beater". I for one said you're physically abusive because you are by any useful definition.

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Ok, so according to you, you're planning on never stopping this kind of behavior.




no ... I believe he said ... gotta start somewhere.

are you trying to get him angry?

seems that way to me.... just wondering....

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Quote:

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Ok, so according to you, you're planning on never stopping this kind of behavior.




no ... I believe he said ... gotta start somewhere.




He said, "If that is your definition of "blowing my stack" then I will never make you happy." -- sounds like planning on never changing that behavior to me.

Quote:


are you trying to get him angry?

seems that way to me.... just wondering....




Nope, just pushing back when he waffles. Anger or not is his choice. What books I've read written by those who work with people who use the same attitudes and behaviors DI has been displaying talk quite a bit about how sympathy and praise for changing tiny bits of monumental problems tend to make such people worse, not better -- it's enabling for such people, not supportive. What's supportive is pushback against their self-serving rationalizations, so that's what I'm providing.

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Quote:

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Ok, so according to you, you're planning on never stopping this kind of behavior.




no ... I believe he said ... gotta start somewhere.




Geez... His "tantrum" was merely using some mild sarcasm, I thought. Compared to T_D's postings right after his d-day, I thought this was a major improvement.

And, yes, T_D never said he had "no intention of changing" - he just outlined all the steps he is taking to change.

He has reason to be angry, and it is unrealistic to expect him to become the Buddha overnight - or at all.

And, although no-one actually used the term "wife-beater", I got the distinct impression earlier that he was being painted that way, especially over the vase incident which, as we have seen, did not quite occur the way BT initially described it.


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Anger or not is his choice.




Really? Anger is an emotion, and I thought the choice he has is how he deals with it, not whether he feels it.

Even Christ got angry.

Quote:

What books I've read written by those who work with people who use the same attitudes and behaviors DI has been displaying talk quite a bit about how sympathy and praise for changing tiny bits of monumental problems tend to make such people worse, not better -- it's enabling for such people, not supportive.




I'd actually be interested to see one of these books. Do you have any titles or authors handy? I am serious, here, because I would like to know more about this topic.


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Sure, the ones most widely known on this forum are "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft, and to a lesser extent "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans, though she does more on identifying the behavior than on working with behavior recovery. There's some relevant material in the Boundaries books, and even in Love Busters though for some reason that part of Love Busters doesn't seem to register with a lot of the people who've read it. For others I'd have to check. A good self-help set of exercises can be found in "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns.

As for anger being a choice, in many cases it is. Much of the time it's our thinking, which we control, that creates our anger. If DI considers this thread as a source of information that might help him and uses it as such, he has no reason to get angry no matter what anyone posts -- either a post has info he can use or ask for help on using, or not. If he loads expectations onto the thread about what he decides it's supposed to contain, then sooner or later he's bound to get angry when the content differs from what he wants. What thinking to use is what determines whether the thread makes him angry, and it's completely his choice.

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CC,
Quote:

Anger is an emotion, and I thought the choice he has is how he deals with it, not whether he feels it.




The following has helped me control my AOs....

I prefer to think of ANGER, not as an emotion, but as an ACTION. The emotion may be sadness, disappointment, disillusionment, surprise, hurt, etc....what I do with that emotion is the ACTION.

As a result I can...
...A) ACT ANGRY run around hit doors and yell (I'm talking about myself here TD/DI); or
...B)I can listen to my emotion and have an ASSERTIVE (but not aggressive) conversation helping my wife understand what I am feeling and making a request so that I don't get hurt/surprised etc.
...C) I can swallow and repress that emotion and build up resentment that I'm 'being good' while she abuses me (not recommended BTW).
...D) I can channel the feelings into another activity like exercise, poetry, journaling, writing a short story, etc.

But, the point is you may not choose your initial emotion (sad, hurt, disappointed, etc) but you can CHOOSE to BE or NOT-BE ANGRY.

Regards


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Well, I went to IC last night. Things ahve gone much better with him the last 2-3 weeks, since he made his diagnosis and we have settled on a treatment plan.
However, just as Dr Harley said, IC's are not in the business of saving marriages. My IC told me that. He said his job with me is to work on me. If working on my issues have a beneficial effect on saving my marriage, great, but that is not his focus. I asked him, but can't you and my old MC, who I guess is now wife's IC, talk between yourselves with the intent to help save my marriage? He said no. He is not a MC.

So, I am now going to IC with no focus at all on saving my marriage. W has gone to our MC once for IC in the past 6 weeks (of our seperation), for I guess, IC. W will not resume MC. W will not respond to requests from Dr Harley to accept his assistance in getting us back started on the MB program. W is seeming to be going further downhill emotionally and physically (continuing to lose weight when already underweight). W refuses to let me try to give her some emotional support and comfort.

I just don't know what to do or where to go or what to think.
I am still dedicated to continuing IC for my issues. But I am frustrated at what do do about my marriage, and am equally frustrated if not more so about not being able to help my wife during her obvious emotionally and physcially weakening state.

I know I can't force W to resume MC, or force her to accept a phone call from Dr Harley, or force her to start IC to help her with her issues, or force her to let me try to give her comfort or support. But it as so frustrating......

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Something that might assist you in your approach to recovery:

If a man has been powering over his wife for years with angry outbursts, displays of physical violence at objects or walls or doors, professes to be in recovery once the relationship's balance of power has shifted, the wife has to see certain things:

1. Recovery is not with the intent of salvaging the relationship - the wife knows that if she buys into this, as soon as the balance of power shifts to equal footing, she will lose her equality of power in the relationship. And the old status quo of tolerating angry outbursts and violence will be expected.

2. Recovery must include an absolute turning from controlling behaviors - anything to lead the wife to marriage counseling is a signal that the change is only temporary at this point in your recovery process.

3. Recovery includes finding God in your life - not the phony display of religious activities and devotion, but a quiet, heartfelt turning of one's life over to HIS care, and allowing Him (AND TRUSTING HIM) to soften your wife's heart ONLY when your heart has truly changed in HIS sight.

4. Recovery would look to me like my husband absolutely cares for my welfare and needs, and places no expectations or demands. He would consider that he had already lost the marriage and that he just wants to spend the rest of his life if necessary making amends and being a good, kind, compassionate loving man.

D, Inc. - please be mindful that God wants your marriage to succeed, but You must get out of His way. And Trust Him. Turn your life and the molding of your character over to Him. He already has your wife in His hands, but you don't seem to recognize that. A mighty change of heart looks entirely different than a pity party because you're in counseling just for yourself and abandoning the hope and focus on marital recovery.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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I understand and agree with all of that. That is my intent.

However, one cannot escape the facts of what W did and the effects they have had, and continue to have on me. It is unreasonable to expect me to be able to continue in a realationship with W without some sort of addressing of that. And regardless of whether we are actively attempting reconciliation or are seperated we are still in a "relationship".

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D-Inc, it IS reasonable for you to continue your relationship with W WITHOUT addressing what she has done wrong. You both have addessed it and there has been enough. She knows what she did, and she knows it hurt you. She is not stupid. She was just selfish.
In Harley's book SAA, he states that the BS may want to make the WS feel really guilty about the A. However, Harley says something like, "Have you ever tried set someone straight?" Don't do it. She doesn't need to hear it anymore.

She needs forgiveness now. That means practically forgetting about things she has done to hurt you. Don't bring them up ANYMORE! If you tell her, "I forgive you, but you need to feel bad about what you did." -that is NOT forgiveness.

You even stated yourself, "What I have come to understand is, I can be mad at her all the time or I can try to save my marriage, but I cannot do both. Also, we can both wallow in that pain, which will no doubt result in a divorce, or we can both move forward together as if we have never been hurt. If we do the latter, our marriage stands a chance."

She has stated, "I know my having the affair hurt my H, devestated him, and I expected anger, but I do not deserve the things that have happened."

Listen, I would almost bet that she is still in love with OM. Why? Well, first she still sees him in the neighborhood. Also, IMHO, it is a sign if she is still losing weight. However in reality, even if there is NC, her love bank is still full from the OM, and your's is still empty. Regardless of how wrong it may have been, she remembers how nice it was to have OM who was so kind to her, and maybe even loved her for all her imperfections. He met her EN and did not create love busters. You need to do that even better than he did or you can forget it. And you CAN do it. As difficult as it is to accept, she needs someone to love and accept her, even if she cheated. If fact needs even more that acceptance. She needs admiration. Your finacial support and family commitment are great, and that is probably the only reason she is still around. But she needs more or she will eventually leave. Give her a reason to fall in love with again. She remembers the OM as a source of happiness. YOU be that source.

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She needs forgiveness now. That means practically forgetting about things she has done to hurt you. Don't bring them up ANYMORE! If you tell her, "I forgive you, but you need to feel bad about what you did." -that is NOT forgiveness.





And I have made efforts to not bring her actions up. I hardly ever do. However, conversely, I still get my past actions thrown up in my face routinely. I told her I was ready to start over, starting again as if she hadn't hurt me, and I try to do that. BUT, she needs to return that action for it to be successful in saving our marriage. And she is either unwilling or unable to do so. And she is unwilling to go to IC or MC to do anything about it.

It is difficult for me to put her actions in the past but continue to have mine thrown in my face without getting resentful. And that is where I am starting to get, VERY RESENTFUL.


Quote:

he states that the BS may want to make the WS feel really guilty about the A.



I am not worried about making her feel guilty. I just need to feel WANTED. Dealing with what she did is very, very hard. Dealing with it while she pretty much acts like she could care less about me is close to impossible. I cannot tolerate the daily resentment, disdain, and lack of caring and keep a smile on my face.

Quote:

Well, first she still sees him in the neighborhood.




And refuses to consider moving. She wanted to,and even suggested it right after d-day, but now won't even talk about it. I have made it clear to her that from my perspective we are moving, either together or seperately. That may be a LB in your eyes, but it is the truth in my eyes. I CANNOT live here any longer. Especially when baseball season starts for the boys. They WILL NOT be in the league here in town, PERIOD. I do not deserve to have to endure all of those triggers regardless of whether I am still mariied or am divorced.

Quote:

she remembers how nice it was to have OM who was so kind to her, and maybe even loved her for all her imperfections.




Give me the scenerio where I only see my W on dates or mid-day sex rendevous, where household finances, kids, etc are not an issue, and I bet we can have a stress free relationship as well.

As far as him loving her, I am sure that she still probably believes that he did. I can understand how it can be hurtful for her to view it as being used. However, in reality, his W, who did not suspect an A either, twice set up appointments with a lawyer to D him during the affair and both times he refused to show up for the appts and begged her not to D him. Throughout the A, he was still having SF with his W. So I guess in a twisted screwed up way, my W should see that as him cheating on her.

Quote:

You need to do that even better than he did or you can forget it.




It is illogical to expect to be able to create that type of atmosphere when all of the stress of having a family, financial issues, etc are present. And now add to the mix her A.

When they were together it was all about them. They didn't have to worry about her kids, her household issues, his kids, his household issues. It was all about having fun with no committments involved. That is not the reality of real life, married life.

Quote:

Your finacial support and family commitment are great, and that is probably the only reason she is still around. But she needs more or she will eventually leave. Give her a reason to fall in love with again.




Her domestic support is great and is probably the only reason I am still around. BUT I NEED MORE OR I WILL EVENTUALLY LEAVE. I need a reason to fall in love with her again.

Look, I am in a pissed off mood this morning. I was really sick last night. Every bone in my body aches right now. My W continues to spend money for Christmas even though I have consistently told her the well is dry and I am very worried about how we are going to cover our expenditures. I mentioned it to her again this morning and she said "I don't belive you". So basically, she isn't going to worry about the finances, I am expected to figure out a way to make it happen. That makes me feel like a figgin doormat.
What am I getting out of this relationship? For the last 6 months I have gotten nothing but heartache, pain, and lonliness. At what point do I say that enough is enough?

I am not a GQ guy, but I am not ugly either. I have a great career, make great money that is more than enough when W and I are cooperating. Since starting IC and a mood stabilizer I have lost the panicky feelings I would get when thinking about losing W. In general, I am not angry any more. I am more positive about my life in general, with exception to my marriage, then I can ever remember being in my entire adult life.

But I am tired. I am so friggin tired... and lonely. And it is not like the past 6 months have been generally lonely and tiresome. The have been BRUTALLY lonely and tiresome.

I look back on 2005 and it is just a blank spot, a lost year in my life. I have lost an entire year. It is all a blur of pain, despair, and loneliness.

I will not allow 2006 to be like that.

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Just wanted to say that I fell your pain and that you'll be in my prayers.

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Her domestic support is great and is probably the only reason I am still around


You can get a maid for that you know. For some reason that comment really ticked me.

My W continues to spend money for Christmas even though I have consistently told her the well is dry and I am very worried about how we are going to cover our expenditures. I mentioned it to her again this morning and she said "I don't belive you". So basically, she isn't going to worry about the finances, I am expected to figure out a way to make it happen. That makes me feel like a figgin doormat.

She must not believe you because you said something else here...

I have a great career, make great money that is more than enough when W and I are cooperating.

What is meant by "cooperating"? Do you decide where the money is spent...is that what you mean by cooperating?

Is this about control with some grand power struggle going on there?

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Her domestic support is great and is probably the only reason I am still around


You can get a maid for that you know. For some reason that comment really ticked me.




It's not much different from him feeling like she is just staying with him for his money.


Me: 41, INFP
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Is that why he is telling her that the money well has run dry? He is no longer offering FS? I guess she could withdraw her Domestic Support and you have to wonder where that would leave them.

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Her domestic support is great and is probably the only reason I am still around

You can get a maid for that you know. For some reason that comment really ticked me.





Exactly, I could get a maid for that. Exactly my point.
What I am saying is that I am not exactly having a party here, living it up while she suffers. I am suffering. We are both suffering alone. The only difference is that I am reaching out to her, and she refuses. No one is reaching out to me.

At this point, she is so emotionally withdrawn from me that I get very little other than the domestic support of the kids and the house.

I have tried. I admit that for 2 months after d-day she did make some efforts. I wanted them and even more. But I was also just unable to have wanting to stay married to her and knowing what she did to be able to co-exist in my mind at the same time. I could not control my emotions and often they came out in ways that were hurtful to her, even though all along I wanted to save my marriage.

Now I have my emotions under control. She thinks it is a "take a pill to blunt your emotions and say you are doing something" deal. But that is not it. My emotions are not blunted. I can still feel high emotions for sadness and happiness. But, the mood stabilizer has seemed to even out my emotions so that my anger is not so overwhelming. She does not understand that it is a neurotraansmitter thing. I have felt "angry" in general since becoming a teenager. To me that says that my neurotransmitters were not in "normal" conentrations or functionality in a physiological sense. So the mood stabilizer has only returned me to "normal" to allow me to function "normally".

Regardless, she is so withdrawn from me that either she is back in contact with OM, or she has exited the M for other reasons and it is over.

It doesn't really matter in the end which reason it is, the results are the same. And I am starting to accept that.

Quote:

I have a great career, make great money that is more than enough when W and I are cooperating.

What is meant by "cooperating"? Do you decide where the money is spent...is that what you mean by cooperating?

Is this about control with some grand power struggle going on there?





We have the same amount of money coming in as always, almost. First, in the past, pre-A, if I said we were overspending our budget she would work with me. The ONLY thing about our budget that I am steadfast in enforcing is investing between 10-15%. PERIOD. I worked 9yrs in the Army and we got out with $10K saved up. We are behind.

Other than that 10-15% I do not "control" any of it. Any more I am lucky if she gives me her reciepts for me to add up how much we have spent. And that usually takes me asking her and nagging her for several days just to get her reciepts to add up.

Quote:

Is that why he is telling her that the money well has run dry? He is no longer offering FS? I guess she could withdraw her Domestic Support and you have to wonder where that would leave them.





We have as much as we always did, it's just that now, we do not communicate, and evedentily she thinks whatever we spend I will find a way to cover.

As far as the "almost" I added above, it is due to the $8k we dropped on tuition for our boys to go to a nearby private school instead of going back to their public school. D-day was 2 weeks before the start of school. We, very much in the heat of the moment when she was very strongly promising to do "everything she could" to make it up to me and save the marrige, decided to enroll them there to save them the probable gossip and hassles that were sure to happen in the public school in this VERY small town. The private school is in another town. Also, we reasoned that since we were going to move due to the A, having them in this provate school would not make them have to transfer schools in the middle of the school year.

Weel, $8K at the drop of the hat is not something we were prepared for. So we are also working to pay back the $$ we borrowed for that as well as then needing to prepare to pay next years $8K.
I am very glad that we did enroll them there. And I am not trying to hang that over her head. But it is an additional expense that has to be accounted for.

Also, since the May fight, we spent several hundred dollars for MC while she was starting and then having her A. Then several hundred more since d-day, as well as $1K for the MB seminar.

I never, ever thought we would truly D. Even on D-day I was hoping that she would come back, that she would be willing to do what it would take for us to stay together. This summer, during her A, even though nothing was working for me (and I couldn't understand why... go figure), I still couldn't comprehend that we would actually D.

Now, I see it as a very real possibility. Actually, right now, I would say Vegas odds would be riding on a D.

I say that because she is emotionally withdrawn and I am losing the strength to continue fighting to stay emotionaly engaged in the M. I will always care for her. That will never change. But right now I feel the beginnings of resenting the he11 out of her. And I know that in the current enviroment, if things don't change, that will only get worse.

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I decided to go back to my old name, cause it fits again...

OK, I had a bad weekend. I felt sick the whole time and felt very frustrated and in a bad mood.
I felt, and still feel, at the end of my rope as far as recieving resentment or just being ignored by W. We had a b-day party for our 3yr girl yesterday. Lots of family there. The ONLY words W spoke to me were "hold the pinata" and "do you want a piece of cake?".


All I keep hearing from W is "I am going to file", then she gets mad at me when I ask her when she is going to file.

I hear "You won't be able to forgive me for what I did", how does she know what I can or can't do?

I hear "If you stay with me, in a year you will hate yourself for doing it"

I am in a bad mood this morning, carrying over from the weekend, but I am tired of all this.

As I said in a previous post, either she is still in contact with OM, or she has just exited the marriage. It doesn't really matter which it is because the end result is the same.


Me (XBH): 39
Kids: 13yoS, 11yoS, 6yoD

"Another turning point, a fork stuck in the road.
Time grabs you by the wrist, directs you where to go.
So make the best of this test, and don't ask why.
It's not a question, but a lesson learned in time."
-GOOD RIDDANCE!
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Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
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