Lady,

Ok. I understand what you are saying about THE SWORD...

But why did you think that I was specifically contradicting YOU for some reason?

Paul is speaking for God. God believes in 100% of what Paul wrote there, because God inspired it. Thus, it was God who spoke those words...thru Paul.

The President of the U.S. has a spokeman. When he speaks, he speaks for the President. How can he speak for the President? Because the President told him what to say. Same goes for God and Paul!! even Paul acknowledges this because there are times where he distinguishes when he is writing from his own perspective, and when he is speaking for God.

In His arms.

Stalin? Hitler? Saddam Hussein?Does anyone have biblical references that support the removal from authority of "bad leaders"

Griselda, I believe there are many evil leaders in the world today. Each one will have a judgement day. Sadaams appointed judgement just happens to be now, so many years later. Tookies happens to be now so many years later.
Look at how long Nebuchadnezzar ruled before his judgement came, and he was afflicted with insanity, but he repented,
and admitted that God sits on the throne not himself. Sadaam never did. Nebuchadnezzar was found during his judgement, crawling through the grass with nothing. Amazing the paralels with Sadaam. Sadaam was found in a hole in the ground totally insane, he had that point lost all of his power.

Lady

Police officers carry a sword, and they have every right to use it if needed, without penalty.

There also are BAD JUDGES and BAD DISTRICT ATTORNEYS..who may account for some folks getting the DEATH PENALTY as a sentence while others get a LIFE SENTENCE?

Are you saying that OUR GOD wants such JUDGES to RULE?

What I am saying is to prevent such mistakes from being made..to prevent the influence of EVIL in the JUDICIAL SYSTEM..EVIL AMONG THOSE IN POWER IN OUR GOVERNMENT..we need to do away with the POSSIBILITY of such mistakes being made...

BTW, Lady...You didn't answer my question about your comment to me...

All I was trying to say was that just because we make mistakes that cause the death of innocent lives, does not mean that we stop that endeavor. if it is a worthwhile and moral endeavor, we continue...but learn from our mistakes.


Again Mimi, I do respect your positions here. They are based on the fact that you do value human life...as do I. So, do not think that I am attacking you as a pacifist or anti-death penalty. You have taken a very logical and thought-out position. No problem.

We just disagree...which is okay!!

As a soldier, I believe there are things worth dying for...and reasons to kill people. If a man comes into my home and tries to harm or kill my wife...I would not lose a minute of sleep over the fact that I killed him. He got what he asked for...and deserved.

Osama killed 3000 innocent people. If I had the chance to send him on to Allah...I would feel a sense of duty to the dead and feel it was an honor to do so. He asked to be killed and he got what he deserved.

There are people that must stop the evil at the gates. There is evil in this world and it will not be gone until Jesus comes back. The Middle East will NEVER ever get along. They just wont.

This means that I have a gun in my house to shoot people who try to enter it illegally and harm my family. It means I pay taxes to my local community in order to hire police and judges to catch or shoot criminals that would do harm to my family or my neighbors. It means that I pay taxes in order for my government to pay men and women like me to go stand in the gap...to hold back evil, so that all of us back here have a chance at that "pursuit of happiness."

Look, I know what we do to soldiers, how we train them, what we ask of them. It is horrible, it is shocking, it is barbaric in many cases...and it is ABSOLUTELY necessary! The soldier does the nasty things needed so that the rest of us can live in our relative, peaceful society, complete with Christmas trees, evenings at the Redskins game, and our children walking safely to school.

There was an interview with a soldier on TV over a year ago. All day long, they were engaged in a shoot out, or were mortared, or whatever. That night, under the relative peace of out going artillery fire, the reporter asked "How can you live like this?" His response was telling:

"Mam, I live like this so that my family and friends back home do not have to live like this. I get shot at so they might not get shot at. I get mortars and bombs fired at me that might blow me up, so that another 3000 of my countrymen do not have to die." It is that simple!

When Adam and Eve did what they did, this is what they set in motion. This was not God's choice, but man's choice. It will be rectified one day. The soldier will not be needed one day. But that day will come, even after Jesus comes down to destroy evil. You see, when He comes back, He will bring His believers along as soldiers...and judges of the wicked.

Death is inevitable. We are all udner a death sentence. Too often, we live our lives as if we are going to live forever. This body we are in will not live forever no matter how many squat thrusts we do and protein shakes we drink. So, if we are all gonna die, then there has to be something more valuable than life. Something bigger than life. Someone bigger than life (right ForeverHers?!?!).

John Stuart Mills expressed this well, and I will stop this post with his quote. This isnt meant as a shot against you Mimi...it just is a representation of how I feel about war, executions, and killing the guilty:


In His arms.

Again that means we cant put them in jail for the rest of their life, because we know these evil judges might put someone away for life that didnt deserve it and that wouldnt be fair. That is the logical conclusion of yoru argument, Mimi.

In His arms.

Oh yeah...and I forgot my other biggy...


In His arms.

Unfortunately, human judges can be wrong. But God the Just judge never is wrong.

Many of the criminals that are convicted of crimes in this country are judged by the people (juries), not necessarily judges. Have you ever been on a grand jury? I have and it's very interesting.

There are laws that are wrong in this country yes, and many of those are the principalities of the world of whom we fight against, and put on the whole armor of God. It's Gods laws that stand and they are pretty simply laid out in scripture. He gives us those laws to understand what sin is, murder, adultery, idolatry, etc...

Making the distinction and having discernment is the key.

Lady

...to specific audience, in a particular culture, at a certain time, for a specific reason.

In light of all of that, we, through careful prayer and consideration, with the help of the Spirit, have to decide how this applies to US, IN OUR CULTURE, IN OUR TIME.

As you can see, I am not a fan of literal interpretation...



No, it's only a logical conclusion if you fail to make a distinction between imprisoning a person for life and executing them...as you did in response to my post earlier.

When imprisoning a person, you are not depriving them of LIFE. You ARE depriving them of liberty and the pursuit of happiness in a free society. But not their life.

If there is no distinction between the two, then why do we even bother with very long term sentences. Why don't we just kill them and be done with it. Same thing isn't it?

I have not changed my position, but I have gained understanding into the thought processes that are used to justify the opposing positions. Some of those arguments are quite strong and require me to carefully consider if my own views are still valid in light of what was said.

It's been a worthy discussion.

Low

So that means Thou Shalt not commit adultery" may not apply now, based on today's views??


Yes, it is actually. Look, as our Declaration of Independence says, we have a right to Life, Libery and Pursuit of Happiness. We have a right to all three.

You are valuing life above the other two. I value all three the same. Actually, as I have written above, there are things that are of higher value than life, and worth losing your life over. Just ask Jesus.

There are also things with which are more valuable than your life, such as the safety of others if you are threatening them. So, we need to bring life down fro mthe elevation that many of us have put it up as. We do not get out of this alive. There are things worth more than life. And there are reasons, good and bad, for losing your life.

In His arms.

Ditto!

Back to Tookie ....

The woman who has charge of his "remains" is planning a HUGE funeral in Los Angeles ... and she has the gall to compare this murdering scum-bag (who started one of the most lethal street gangs in history, Crips) to one of history's greats!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> .... she has compared Tookie to (get this) Rosa Parks

disgusting

Disgusting indeed. But I do know that if he did not accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior before he died, then he is in a place now of unimaginable pain and suffering. So it really doesnt matter what that woman says or where hsi remains end up.

In His arms.

I would tend to agree with this statement in it's absolute form...

However, one CAN be a pacifist and acknowledge that war may be necessary to resist evil. There ARE things worth going to war for...and they don't include the ability to drive an SUV and watch a new HDTV.

It comes down to deciding when it is necessary to place your young men in harm's way.

I had no issue with dispatching forces to Afghanistan. I believe we had a clear and firm case to do so, as the enemy was attempting to deprive us of far more than just our Big Macs. I am not so convinced that the decision to go to Iraq was as clearly justified.

Therefore, there ARE those of us who abhor war and see it as a last resort...not just another strategic option.

Pepper-
Im more disgusted by the witnesses claiming that California executed an "innocent man."

It is the same woman ... she co-authored a book with Tookie.

What do y'all think of this? This past Saturday I went to a little area of town that has a lot of little shops with all kinds of crafts, etc. in them. It's an old part of town and the homes are all really cute little places and they dress up the whole "town" for Christmas with lights, Santas, angels, anything "Christmasy." My friend and I noticed that several of the shops were empty or for lease. We commented on this several times during the day. One of the shopowners told us that a Muslim group sued the whole "town" because they were offended by all the Christian signs of the season. Unfortunately, hiring attorneys and such put some of the places out of business. The Muslim group apparently lost their case because the town was dressed up for Christmas as usual.

I'd love to hear all comments.

Agreed!


As I soldier, I can tell you that we agree with you (except on Iraq...we believe we should be there and are doing a great thing). We abhor war, for we are the ones that have to bear the cost of war. We believe it is the last result. War is not when diplomacy fails, though. War is a part of diplomacy. Sometimes, you must face evil with force. Sometimes, there are no negotiations. Sometimes, the only answer is to defeat your enemy. We in the military know that better than anyone.

No one wants war less than the soldier. So, when we go, we want to know as well as we can at the time, that this is what had to be done. So, I do...and we do...agree with you.

On the issue of what is worthy, I can tell you all wars are about economics at the base. If it aint Boston guys throwing tea boxes in the harbor because of taxes, then it is the Army's 7th Corps racing into Iraq to destroy Saddam's retreating troops who were leaving Kuwait...in order to protect the free flow of oil at market prices.

Sure, we wanted to free the Kuwaitis. It wasnt JUST about the oil. Sure, we wanted to free the Iraqis. But that isnt the whole picture. Neither is weapons of mass destruction. Neother is terrorism. All of those are factors. But never ever negate the fact that soldiers will go to war in order to keep your gas under $3 a gallon. And there is nothing wrong with that!

In His arms.