Alphin,

I too, have had problems with a sense of "entitlement", but I am the BS who would never cheat. Consider what I said about making your choices based on emotions vs. intellect. As we all know, WS's are all in a "fog" right. Well, this is because their decision making is emotions (without logic). If they used their intellect, they would be able to see what they are doing & how they are in the wrong. But, it's their emotions at play here - not their intellect.

Just my .02

I don't want to hijack this thread, but thought this might be relevant to why some cheat and some don't...I'm kind of curious. Obviously, having an A is a selfish act. Where does selfishness fall into this? My FWH was/is the most selfish man I have ever met. When we first met, I was not aware of this, it really took its shape a few years into our relationship. So are all of your WSs generally selfish people if you look at them as a whole? Or are there WSs out there that were selfless and still had an A? Could this be an ingredient?

Post deleted by LowOrbit

Michele,

my WH is also one of the most selfish and entitled people I know. I always thought it was more loss for him...

LowOrbit, thank you for your view of a WS. I've been following your threads for a while and can empathize (not sure of this word). I can understand your point of view but it doesn't change the fact that I belive that there are some people who will NEVER have an affair. Maybe it's only a small percentage of people (getting smaller every day) but I still believe that they exist. And probably many of them are found on MB, but they are still a small part of all the people out there. There are probably many more who just shrug and either go straight for a divorce or tolerate an A. Just another "fact of life". IMVHO.

LowOrbit:

You're kidding - right? Please tell us that you're having a rough go of things right now and it's affected your perspective! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

FR

It is funny how this topic comes up every so often and how offended a WS or FWS gets about it. Yes, we BS just continuously pat ourselves on the back for being so moral and committed to our marriage that we have never had an affair. The fact is that I had every single "risk" factor that LowOrbit wrote about and they all occurred at the same time and yet I walked away from an affair. It was hard too, because I really needed something in my life to make me feel good or happy again - something I had been desperately missing for a long time. Instead, I thought about what it would do to my husband, my marriage, my child, and our families. So I don't pat myself on the back, but rather I question why my FWH didn't protect me in the same way. It is a question I ask myself frequently and I always wonder if it means that he just didn't love me as much. It isn't a pat on the back for me to say that I never had an affair, it is me trying to heal the hole in my soul and trying to gain some understanding of how my H could do such a horrible thing to me when I couldn't do it to him..........

So I guess if I were really honest about it, I would not say now that I would NOT have an affair. In fact, now I feel that I am even more vulnerable to having one because what my H did totally destroyed everything I ever thought about marriage and listening to some of these stories that come out of a WS or FWS it makes me wonder why I ever believed marriage meant anything - it obviously doesn't seem to for too many people.

Me, too. Thanks for your honorable perspective, TryAgain.

LowOrbit,

You know, my FWH has your point of view as well - the situation; the opportunity didn't present itself to me in the way that would cause me to fall. I told him "IF you believe that, then you don't know me or how I think at all!!!" I've told my husband many times that to get into the frame of mind where you have attraction, pursue & then start this affair - I could never ALLOW myself to go there. So, by not taking any of the first steps, I could never have an affair. Secondly, I'm not the type of person that would suppress my feelings & thoughts like my H does. I would be in my H's face saying "I'm very unhappy" "If nothing changes, we are not going to make it". I would get his attention.

PLUS, I want to say that I watched my grandparents in a committed marriage for 63 years - through the UPS & DOWNS sticking it out no matter what. I understood what a real commitment looks like. My H didn't have that opportunity with any of his family.

I think it has alot to do with personality, problem solving skills, & how you make decisions!! I can imagine that a WS cannot understand my view of things because you did not make the decisions I've made in my life. When I stood before God & family taking vows, I not only meant it, I committed to it. And no matter how much I was suffering in my marriage (and I was), I NEVER once thought about getting my EN's met somewhere else. I made a COMMITTMENT and that was it for me.

My H says he thought he committed, but I know he made comments about our marriage saying "if I ever fell out of love, I would leave, but never cheat". Then, I would try to explain that commitment isn't about his feelings. He gave himself permission all along to keep his commitments ONLY if he "felt" good about it. So, we viewed the marriage commitment differently - obviously.

ONLY now, does he finally undestand what real marriage commitment means. It's just too bad he learned it the hard way dragging me through he11 & back to learn his lesson.

I too never made that choice to cheat even though the oppertunity has presented itself many times in the past. I told my S this while she was starting to come out of her EA. I chose not to because I saw what it did to my mom, when my dad and step dad for that matter both cheated. I just felt it was wrong. i just took what EN's that were not met and just filled them with spending time with my DD, once my S started coming around she started filling my EN's and I in turn filled hers. we've only been a little over a week in recovery but it's been like night and day from the EA to now. I pretty much fill up all her avail time and everything is accounted for.

Lost

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Post deleted by LowOrbit

Oddly enough, I'm with LO on this one.

(I say "oddly" because I'm a pretty self-righteous BS who as little as two weeks ago told MC that I could not imagine what the emotional fall-out of my having an A would be as I simply could not even fathom a set of circumstances that would lead to my having an A.)

Her response was that if I ever did have an A, by the time I came out of it and realized how much I had compromised my own value system, I would crash so hard that I might end up in the psych ward.

Kinda made me wonder. She knows me pretty well by now. She knows that I am a black-and-white kinda gal. "Integrity" is my shibboleth. Yet she did not agree and say, "you're right, you never would." She just said, "IF you would, you would fall hard."

To me, saying "I would never have an affair" is somewhat like saying (pre-A) "if my spouse has an affair, I will leave." How many of us said that? (I did) How many of us did? (I didn't.)

In another example, my H's grandfather fought for the "wrong" side in WWII. He was a young, impressionable Hungarian boy. He made decisions based on what he knew at the time (which were, in turn, heavily influenced by the messages surrounding him). Did he make a "wrong" choice? Yes. Should he be held accountable for pain he caused when he made that choice? Yes. Would I make the same choice under the same circumstances?

Possibly.

It's that "possibly" that gives me pause here. I make decisions that contradict my purported belief system all the time. I support the government and generally abide by its laws, yet I will speed to work again today. I say I have a strong work ethic, but here I am on MB instead of marking exams.

Small, irrelevent examples, perhaps. But I am realizing how often I shift my value system to embrace behavior that I would *say* I would never do in order to excuse it. The fact that I am able to do so in the small things makes me wonder if I could do the same in the big things.

I guess I'm realizing that those who say that people who adamently insist they would *never* have an affair may be at the greatest risk to have one might indeed be right. (Note - I say "may." It is entirely possible that those on here who say *never* are really incapable. Even after all I've been through, I do not count myself among them.)

G

I think there is something none of you yet have brought to attention that is highly relevant when we discuss martial fidelity:


Staying faithful in M is in some ways like driving a car. Hitting the brakes with all your weight and doing evasive manoeuvres are the last moment options to avoid an accident. But a good driver will spend years on the road without having to resort to those measures. Similarly you should not wait until you and the OP are both nude and ready to jump in the sack before you start to think of protecting your M. If you rely on your ability to make the right choice when the oportunity already is there, you have already let the "enemy" get very close. Are you so confident in your ability to always chose right?



Part of being married is to maintain boundaries so that opportunities to be unfaithful do not present themselves.
A married person should not eat dinner alone with an opposite gender person. A married person should not have repeated emotional private talks with a person of the opposite gender. One should politely turn down invitations that could lead to temptation.



I frequently participate in conferences. After the conference dinner there is always drinking and dancing into the night. Of course it would be fun to participate.
I go to my room and call my wife. That is part of being M. I know she would not like me dancing with others when she is not around. And I would not like for her to dance with others when I am not around either. Do to others what you would want them to do to you....



[color:"blue"]You have wowed to protect you M. And you do that by taking precautions so that there will be no opportunity to fall. [/color]

I said I would never have an affair but I did. Like others here I had put myself in that broad and righteous category. I also said like most of us here that I would drop my wife in a New York minute if she cheated but I was wrong on both counts.

My wife was involved in an EA that had been going on for the better part of a year (She also had a PA a couple years prior to that). Months of indifference, constant comparisons to the OM and the beautiful soul mate relationship they had, two separations left me a shell of the person I once was. AD's and IC helped me cope but I still had to go home (if you would call it that) and listen to her cry about the OM, how she didn't want to fix our marriage and how our daughter seemed to like him.

I'm not going to defend my decision to have an affair, can't defend selfishness. I wouldn't say it was even a decision but a string of non-decisions. I didn't plan to have an A but I did see it coming and did nothing to stop it. When I finally realized that I had my own EA going I DECIDED to just give up and let what would happen, happen. It happened and it was wrong and it pisses me off that I did it.

But one question still remains for me....would I do it again given the same circumstances?

I would like to say no, but honestly I really don't know. I remember the devastation I felt, the hopelessness and the gut-wrenching loneliness. I can remember the stinging words and disdain that was directed at me. I'm much more confident that I was before and I'm pretty grounded in my faith but I'm not so cocky to declare that it would NEVER happen again. Honestly, I don't think it will happen again. I would cut my losses and move on if I found myself a BS again.

My wife and I have a wonderful marriage. We teach a marriage class at our church which has been a blessing to both of us. We are expecting our second daughter next month (name suggestions please) and financially we are better off than ever. I can remember saying that I would never be able to love her with all my heart. I can remember saying that I could never again trust her explicitly. I can remember saying that I would always wonder if she was being truthful or not.

I was, again, wrong. I really don't like being wrong.

God Bless,

Doug

Some of us do LO.

I could have easily gone into an A if I had no boundaries and committments in mind.There was a time my WH was working terrible hours,on a movie,and he was just not home for a looong time.We passed in the night.I felt sad and missed him but he couldn't just up and leave his job or tell them,sorry,I have to be home tonight with my wife( I wish he did!).So whenever I took my dog to the dogpark and talked with this really handsome guy it would have been so easy to go with him had I not been who I am and what I believe.What always came to mind was pain that could ensue,pain for my children and a weakened state I was not about to get into for anyone.Not for any pleasurable feeling I may have had talking to this guy.I made a choice not to allow it to go any further.I also didn't kill myself after the discovery of the A even though it felt so right at the time( a scary thought).I felt that not being alive would be better than enduring the severe pain I was in but again,I focused on my girls and what pain they would have if I left this life and I somehow carried on.

Right and wrong did get challenged but right always won out.It always has too.Even though I have had some other tough challenges in my mind.


While I can't say I know exactly what it is like to be in an A I do understand many components and while I have noticed several WS's (not you) try to hide behind the fact that we BS's just can't know fully what it's like,I am glad I don't because it means I am on the right track and I am proud of those decisions even though the term "self righteous" has been thrown around I don't necessarily find offense to that.Just because I haven't crossed the line doesn't mean I don't know what's at stake.Do you disagree that A's are selfish,immoral and that WS's feel entitled? I certainly feel this way.


This is interesting and I don't think I have seen anyone actually suggest mental illness for a reasoning behind cheating.I think it's more along the lines of being morally ill.If you think highly of your marriage and find it sacred,like I did,then you just don't make decisions that negatively affect it anymore than you/I would actually hit my own children.It's just not in my nature to do.It really is that simple for ME.

O

LO:

I've not spent much time on GQ2 lately as my situation of being D-ed from WXW provides for me to better spend time on the divorce boards. A friend and fellow MB-er alerted me to your post as it related to Keith's (BHINWI) origination of this thread. And to be honest; GQ2 can get pretty intense.

Playing the "self-righteous" card about anyone who has made the choice not to commit adultery (or any other action that damages other people) is highly unfair and self-righteous in and of it's own. To me - it's analagous to those who play the "race-card" so that their inappropriate actions (however damaging those actions may be) are somehow justified!


I am unsure what you mean by "safe place". And I'm unsure what your expectations are. You're talking about people who's lives have been forever adversely affected. (Not only WS's, but their children, parents, siblings, friends, etc. You know what I'm talking about.) And in every single case of adultery - the choice was made with only one person's "needs" in mind and regardless of the damage to others.

Now please don't think that I lack compassion for the situation you were in - because I do. (As much as I'm capable of!) You were on here at the same time I was - however I don't recall the side of you that I'm seeing. Also; I know all about depression - probably more than you can even imagine! And I know about desparation and feeling like you have nowhere to turn. But I also know about "commitment, family, right & wrong, choices, etc.

I stand by my suggestion that you're having a rough go right now. It would be fully understandable given that the holidays are upon us, the world situation is not the best it's been; and our own country seems to be split for various reasons. However please don't fall into the blame-game against those who are truly victims of others actions.


I feel that most on here have rethought issues that they once stood strong about. However thinking about and acting on are significantly different.

I am not going to comment on the remainder of your post. Clearly there is some intense rationalization going on. I've included the link to a document offered by Family Dynamics out of Tennessee. It is a fairly long document that is designed to empower family members/friends to help a family facing adultery and the pain caused by it. I ask that you take 1/2 hour, read the document and consider your situation as you read it. I hope this helps.

http://www.familydynamics.net/Intervention.htm

Good Luck.

FR

Post deleted by LowOrbit

Consider this perspective, W2BS... There is no such thing as intellect divorced from emotion...in fact, our application of intellect is driven ENTIRELY by emotion. We are, at our core, emotional creatures. They are what drives EVERYTHING we do...even when we think we're being cold and rational. When we severly desire something, it's amazing the lengths we go to to make a rational argument for it.

LowOrbit,

You have proved my point entirely. YOUR EMOTIONS LEAD. You make decisions emotionally so you cannot see my point of view either. There is a difference between emotions leading or emotions following. It doesn't mean you don't have emotions when your intellect makes decisions, but it is not the basis for the decision you make.

Let me give you a Christian perspective on this because I don't think you fully understand what I am saying here:

If we allow the emotional or soulish realm to dominate our lives we become more susceptible to the enemy leading us astray through someone. This area of the flesh should be brought under the Lord's subjection so that Satan does not get the advantage and consequently destroy our lives and ministries. So many have failed the Lord because they chose a man or woman over the Lord.

We find this true throughout the Bible, too. Solomon's heathen wives led him into idolatry. Samson lost his eyes because of a woman, Delilah. David committed murder because of passion for Bathsheba.

Our emotions need to be cleansed as they are not the sign of love. The true definition of love is "God is love." If God is not in a relationship it is not true love. What this world calls love is really lust since it is built on what the other person does for me, not what I can do for him or her. If the other person fails to keep up his end of the bargain, a divorce occurs because the offended mate is no longer pleased. This is the attitude of the world's so-called "love." God's love loves without receiving back; God's love is forgiving and patient. God's love is gentle and kind. God's love waits. God's love sacrifices.

Man's emotions are not a reliable gauge upon which to establish a marriage relationship. We must know in the Spirit that it is God's will. It is much better to marry for character than for emotion. Emotions fluctuate; character doesn't. Emotions are in the soulish realm, and unless the carnal mind has been renewed, Satan can give us emotions or feelings of love for someone of his choosing. (If he did not have this in his power, he could not split up marriages.) One of his favorite techniques is to suddenly take away the feelings one once had for his mate and give feelings for someone else. When he has successfully convinced a person that he no longer loves his or her mate, then he leads them to divorce, whispering, "You are living a lie." After he has destroyed that marriage, he then leads one to marry again by stirring their emotions for another. Often after their next marriage something happens that they do not expect. Before too long, friction begins to develop with the new mate, then arguing. Finally, they find the same thing has happened again; they feel no emotion for their new mate and the next divorce is in the making. "Falling" in love is Satan's way. The very expression of these words should tell us something. A Christian should not blindly "fall" into any trap. Love is bigger than simply falling for someone. Certainly, the Lord gives us a wonderful emotional feeling for the one we are to marry. However, this "feeling" without God's direction can be disastrous as Satan can tamper with our emotions and feelings too.

Marriage, in a Christian's life, should be based on a decision directed by the Holy Spirit. A Christian's love for another is a commitment. Of course, the Lord will supply the emotions for the mate He sends, but that should not be the criterion for making the decision to marry. The Lord should be sought, and whatever He speaks to us we should do. He knows the future and what is best for us. If we trust Him He will not fail us in this or any other important area. Women or men who allow emotions to rule them will never be victorious Christians. Emotions should always follow, never lead.

LO,

I can understand people being in tough times and feeling down.Every one of us has had challenges,to use that term,in our every day lives.But it is hard for me to believe that most adults nowadays do not think that cheating is wrong.Because when that moment hits,and you are faced with that first kiss,hug,stroke,sexual encounter with someone other than your own spouse,there has to be some bell going off even a tiny one saying this is wrong even though your body might be saying oh this is so right.I don't see how the mind can completely ignore the other life that a WS has.Could I be wrong? Sure but I don't think I am.This is 2005 and adultery is rather commonplace,unfortunately,so I would be surprised to find someone who didn't know exactly what cheating meant and what it takes to do it.I had a similar "argument" with Suzet about the "not knowing".




I don't think it's stated quite like that but I do think it HAS to enter your mind at some point before you cross the line.It has to.You can't be married to someone for years and have a family and NOT think at least a nanosecond about what you are doing to them.If you are telling me that that doesn't happen at all then I would be very skeptical.

Let me use my WH as an example.In the few times we actually talked about what he was feeling and what he did,he admitted very openly that he did consider what he was about to do.What it would do to me and our families.Not so much about any intergrity or morals but consequences.he admitted talking it over with the homewrecker.About how he was already married,had children.Boy,writing this over again brings back such deep,sickening memories.So,he discussed what he was about to do with the homewrecker and made a decision then and there to go ahead anyway because he felt like it.He felt he "deserved" it.Homewrecker didn't care he was a married man.Had kids.Had a family that would be hurt.

Point is,they did remember I was a person but chose to hurt me in the worst way imaginable.So I was a thought.I was a consideration, but not a very good one.If he ever tried to tell me that I didn't cross his mind up until and during or even after he had sex with that person I wouldn't believe him.




Well,how about we have a conversation in 40 years and see if I held to task? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I know I will not be unfaithful if I marry again.I think you may just have to accept that there are those of us who would never cheat,not under any circumstance.And there are those who would never hit their children,smoke pot,rob a bank or become a prostitute,etc.

Maybe it is hard for some WS's to agree with since it does put one in a "category" of not being like us,proud to have honored our marriages/vows and having been faithful.For if we ALL are not capable then that leaves a higher "standard" to live up to or practice.I am not trying to sound "holier than thou" but I do feel good about having been faithful and about many choices I have made in my life.I try to live a life closer to God and make good choices.As my sig line says,sometimes we just complicate our lives so much that right and wrong,the simplicity of it,gets ignored.And sometimes the right choice means you just don't get what you want at that moment even if it feels good.

That's just how I feel LO.I hope I didn't offend you but that's how I see it.

O

Hey LO,

How are things going for you?

I don’t have much to add to this thread. I mainly just want to check on you. I hope things are settling down and looking up for you and your family. Are you still out of the house? Is the D still in work? How are your kids doing?

As I have written before, as a BS I often think I may understand your FWS thought processes more often than not. More than most FWS here at least. But then, who knows for sure…

With that in mind, I don’t have anything to tell you one way or another about who will and will not have an A. But I do have a question or three for you. I’m always trying to learn and understand.

Context: “SO, from your responses...you have never been to a place where right and wrong became a confusing blur of rationalization. And, because you've never been there, you can't imagine how people who are there operate.”

Well, no actually. In the first place I consciously avoid situations I think may compromise me. I have developed a pretty good radar for detecting the occasion of sin -at least wrt adultery and infidelity of any kind. And even when I do find myself in a compromising situation I assess, decide and I run the other way.

I have posted about some of these blatant opportunities before. Some of the opportunities were right after one or another of the LTA D-Days. If my mental state was ever soft on getting my ENs met it would have been then, I suppose. None of my ENs were met for over a decade of the LTA, BTW.

Which brings me to my set of related questions:

If your mental state at the time was the reason you chose adultery, what is the chance you will go to that place again? Are you saying it might happen again?

If you marry someone again at some point in the future and your new W misses a series of EN deposits, are you always going to be as vulnerable again as you were then?

What is the point of anyone marrying if all they are is a barrier to their spouses running around? That makes marriage sound like a living hades. Is that what a FWS is really looking for in a spouse? They need an EN slave or else they wander? Is that what I have to do to keep my FWW from choosing another A? Seems wrong somehow.

I’ve posted this observation before: There are a number of FWS on MB that consistently write, after passing through the smoking wreckage of adultery, they now know they will never have another affair.

There are many BS on here that, in fact, knew that same thing all along. Personally, I knew it from “I do.”

Anyway, let me know how you are doing.

With prayers,