I posted this in Just Found Out, and it was suggested that I repost it here. I do so now, with a little more clarification.

My wife and I have been married for 4-1/2 years, together for 6-1/2. We have two kids - one son 11 years old (hers), and our daughter, 3 years old.

She began an emotional affair with a man that I thought was my friend over the internet in late August of this year (2005). He has been going through a nasty divorce for the last year, and she went out to visit him and help him pack up his kids' rooms to send their stuff to their mom who lives in another state.

The PA occured over 10/23/05 - 10/27/05, and she confessed it (at least part of it) on 11/06/05. She has tried to go NC but failed miserably.

She wants to work on our marriage, as do I, but is so ensnared in the affair that she wants to see him one last time to break it off (currently planned for 12/27/05-01/09/06).

The affair grew out of my not meeting her emotional needs, and her not meeting mine. We had fallen into a vicious cycle of not meeting each others needs (if she won't meet mine, why should I meet hers? If he won't meet mine, why should I meet his?).

We have been reading His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters, and I just picked up Surviving An Affair today. I'm also reading Wild At Heart. We had our first joint session of MC on Tuesday, 12/22, and she had her first IC on 12/23 (today). I have my first IC on 12/27.

I fought against this trip since she told me about it (on 12/21). Unfortunately, due to my complete failure to be the husband she needs, wants, deserves and that God calls me to be, I no longer have enough credibility to change her mind.

We are both Christians, but I have sat on the fence for a long time. I am no longer on the fence, and am praying daily to submit myself to God's will, and to seek His will in my life and that of my family.

I firmly believe that the best thing I can do right now about the trip is to leave it in God's hands. Every time I try to stop it, I end up making her more resolved to go and more angry at me. God is working on her heart and mind - I can see that. She is struggling with this - she knows it's wrong.

I believe, and a good number of my Christian brothers and sisters support me on this, that the best thing for me to do is to continue to seek God's will in this matter, to leave the issue of the trip in His hands, and to focus on making myself into the man He calls me to be, with His help, and doing my best (againg with His help) to work on this marriage.

There are some who will tell me to take a harder line (think Dobson's Love Must Be Tough book). I do not think that this is the time to do so. I believe that is still Plan A time (this affair is relatively young).

Now for the part that I didn't add to last night's post in Just Found Out. Until the last year or so, I had a voyeuristic streak in me, and had told my wife that seeing (or hearing about) her with another man, or participating with her and another man would be very exciting. She did not like this idea, but I kept pushing for it and talking about it.

I was working on getting rid of that particular piece of garbage, though not as hard as I should have. I also told her that I did not want her to do anything at all with this particular person (because he was a friend of mine).

Her actions are her responsibility. We both know that. However, I cannot sidestep (nor do I want to) the fact that I opened the door for this to occur. I bugged her about (in reality) having an affair for so long, that it had to have some effect on her psyche.

I am reaping what I sowed, even if this is not what I had imagined at the time I was sewing. But sin is like that - it often has consequences far greater than we anticipated or wanted.

I will always love my wife, and I will always be there for her to the best of my ability. I do not believe that God is directing me to take a harder line with her yet - in fact, I believe He is asking me to leave the trip and her to His care for now, and get myself squared away before Him first. Only by being truly centered on God can I ever hope to be the man He calls me to be, let alone the husband He calls me to be.

The trip does concern me. She knows that in no uncertain terms do I agree with, condone or approve of what she wants to do, and that it will have an impact on me worse than the original affair. It will set us back even further than we already are.

Yes, my position could be construed as implicitly giving her permission to do this. However, I know my wife enough to know that certain things cannot be pushed with her, and this is one of them. I can look over this week, and I can see what happens when I push, and I can see what happens when I leave it in God's hands. Personally, I much prefer the results God is getting, however small they may seem, to the total lack of results (or at least the results I want) when I get involved.

Right now my focus is on continuing to seek God's will in this and in my life, and working to repair the damage I have done to our marriage. Even if it doesn't have an immediate effect, it will set a basis for her to judge my change against, and it will get me in the habit of fully considering my wife's needs over mine, and working to meet them.

I know what I did wrong. I know what I need to do to fix things on my end. I know that I will carry the lion's share of the burden at least at first, because my love busters (selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts - especially the angry outbursts) have stripped any security and trust my wife had in me when we got married, and I have to give her enough positive, consistent change to give her reason to believe she can begin to safely open up to me again.

This battle, in the end, is not mine. It is God's. I will seek His will in it, and do as He commands me. God brought us together - I do not believe He wants us apart. But I do believe that He wants us (both of us) to make some serious changes in our Christian lives, and as the head of the household those changes have to start with me.

Hopefully this post is a little more coherent than my last one. Fire away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi - You have the book Surviving An Affair? Read the section on how Harley says the A should be ended. It is definitely not the way your wife is planning on ending it. I don't believe her intentions are to go and see him to "end" the A.

We cannot control our WS's actions. Only let them know how much it hurts us that they continue to see the OP. I don't think she is ready to end the A yet.

You have come to an excellent place for support and advice. I am sorry this has happened to you -

Blessings,

Kim

If you don't mind OM having sex with your wife some more, then by all means continue to enable her to go on the trip.

Do you seriously think that after coming back from sleeping with OM your WW will be more ready to work on the M with you?

You are living in fantasy land. What I think is more the case, is that you are afraid of your WW and are willing to put up with her crap so as not to lose your "M".

Well, I've got news for you. You've already lost your M. The question is, are you willing to do what it takes to maybe get it back. If you really want to save your M, enabling your WW to go screw OM some more is not the way to do it. You think you are in Plan A, but you're not! You are in plan APPEASEMENT! You have just agreed to be a doormat. That, my friend, is not Plan A.

Plan A has two components: (1) meeting the ENs that WS allows you to meet and (2) exposing the sleazy A. Allowing WW to go screw OM is not the kind of meeting WW's needs that Plan A entails.

The choice is yours. I know I am harsh and I know that this is a very hard time for you. You have my deepest sympathy and concern, but I think you would be making a colossal mistake if you let her go see OM with your blessing.

You see, women want men they can respect. How can your WW respect you if you tell her it is ok for her to be with another man? She can't, she just can’t! And if you really believe that nothing will happen between them, she'll just realize how gullible you are, if she has not noticed already. A woman will not respect someone who is so easily duped.

Accepting reality in your case is very hard to do. I know. But accept it you must. You will also need to grow some backbone if you want a real chance at saving your M. To recap, Plan A is not Plan APPEASEMENT. It is not equivalent to being a doormat. It is about meeting WS’s needs and exposing. Not being a doormat is not a LB.

Before I jump on your thread again, let me know if you are really willing to fight for your M.

In any event, please read some of the articles and some of the other threads on this forum, so you may get a better understanding of what Plan A is about.

Best

UVA - I am really willing to fight for my M.

There's some stuff that I have not shared yet (my wife has also been reading these forums, and knows I have posted here, and I have encouraged her to post as well).

I may not agree with the advice or the counsel, but I do listen to it and I do appreciate it.

I'd like to write a more coherent reply, but right now the lack of sleep, lack of appetite, minor nausea and general blah physical and emotional feeling I have leaves me too tired to do anything but pray.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

Translation she wants her cake and eat it too.

She wants to see OM so they can rut like pigs for a few days. (thanks Mel)

My heart breaks when I read this. I know what it's like. I am very sorry for your pain and will keep you in my prayers tonight. My point, though, still stands. You cannot give your blessing to your WW and OM getting together. Nothing good can come of it.

I hope you had a merry Christmas.

BB, this is a lie. She is not going to break it off, but to have sex with the OM. If she were really ending things, she would not have to fly there, she would send a letter ENDING THINGS.

So no, she does not want to work on your marriage, she wants to go have sex with the OM. And apparently with your blessing.

Ok, this is my third time trying to respond to this. Hopefully my head is cool enough and my computer will cooperate. This is the WW. To clarify ‘Bird is NOT enabling me to do ANYTHING. My poor unfortunate dh married a strong-willed, stubborn, whirlwind of a woman. Part of the reason I married him is he loves me despite the crap I put myself through, and us. There were some serious issues in our marriage and not really looking for an affair, I fell into one. This was after practically nagging him that we needed help and I needed him. Despite how horrible and distasteful an A is it’s the only thing that woke him up. ‘Bird is not afraid of me, put he knows that if you push me, I push back. I need this trip to put things in perspective. Ditsy and unconventional, but it’s the way I figure things out. I have to test the theory, and the limits. I know that I am being selfish and hurting lots of people. ‘bird puts up with my crap because he knows I have a lot of baggage that I am still working through

He’s not appeasing me. I was ready to walk out. He can keep the house, the kids, etc. I was done. He has been doing Plan A, sometimes getting a response, sometimes I shut him out. He keeps trying knowing that I am working it out in my own time. The A has been exposed and there have been consequences. Despite that, I am still going on the trip. Though maybe making it shorter.

Wherever did you get the idea that this was with his blessing? He has given me his stance, but realizes that I AM an adult, making my own choices, and having to live with the consequences.

Painful as this may seem, he lost my respect long ago when he stopped cherishing and protecting me. I can respect him as the father of my children, but not as my husband. That is one of the areas that our marriage needs work on. See, we have some terrible role reversal issues that are hopefully going to get worked through in counseling. Yes, we are doing counseling. ‘Bird is doing his best to NOT push me further away, and I appreciate that. We have almost 4 years of bad stuff to work through, and we’ve only been married for 4.5.

Welcome to marriagebuilders, Magpie. Glad you figured out how to post. It is always nice to hear both sides of the story. There are usually reasons that the marriage got in such a bad state that an affair could happen.

I hope you will read some of the information here about meeting each other's needs. Your marriage CAN be better than before.

Magpie, welcome to MB. Please put on some armour because posting as an active WS is not pretty. First let me tell you I am both a FWW and a BW two times over! What I quoted you saying above is crap pure and simple crap . Why? Because nothing and I mean nothing (short of physical abuse )your husband has done compares to what you are doing to him. You are so full of entitlement and bullsh*t. I have been there, I know. Now, open your eyes. You have a man here trying to save his marriage to you. All the while you want to go off to [censored] some other man. Tell me again what your H has done to you that is as bad as that?

Ok, M...now that I have pissed you off...please read this site carefully about infidelity. Read the posts by the BS's that are screaming with pain. Get the book Torn Assunder and read it with your H. Do not go on that trip. You will regret it the rest of your life. You really will. You are a mother...what example are you setting for your children? Do you want them to look at you with love and respect or with pain and heartache in their eyes?

brokenbird,

Please forgive me if I ask a delicate question but is this permission you are giving to your wife to go see the other man and fornicate with him a fulfillment of your stated "voyeurism"

ONe day when you are out of your WS "fog" you will realize you rewrote your entire marital history to justify your A. We all do that. You are nothing different than any other WS. Your OM is nothing more than the same scum the rest are. You see? What you have that IS special and different is the man that is willing to accept you despite that fact that you ripped his heart out. HE is someone special and worth respect.

brokenbird, I hope you have repented and apologized to your WW for this. I would also recommend you get the book Every Man's Battle and possibly even attend a workshop. This is a serious offense against your WW but does not excuse her lack of respect of her vows to you in front of God.

It's not ditzy and unconventional. It's typical of people who are so wrapped up in themselves, that they'd rather go screw someone than stay home and work through their problems, like an adult. Try to look at this realistically, instead of playing the renegade to justify your behavior. There's nothing even slightly cute about this trip.


What do you call it then?


So, you're ready to desert your kids, so you can go off and screw this guy? Maybe you need to look into your children's eyes and think about what you're doing to them and how you're destroying their lives with your immature and self-centered actions.


What would it take for you to grow up and cancel the trip? You obviously know that you're wrong. Can you use some self control and think about someone other than yourself?


Too bad that your children have to live with your consequences.

Cyamanca -

It is not a delicate question (to me). I have nothing to hide and am cleaning "house" of my issues and sin as rapidly as I can.

First, as I have said, and my wife has said, I am not giving her permission to do anything. It may appear that way, and it may seem implied, but my wife and I know my stance on the issue of the trip.

Second, no, this is not a fullfillmnet of my voyeurism. I told her before the first time she went to visit that I did not want anything to happen. I still want nothing to happen. I have absolutely NO desire to share her with anybody else - not now, nor ever. I also know that it will take time, counseling and the help of God to remove this sin from me permanently, and to rebuild the intimacy I so badly want and need with my wife.

I realize (now) that my obsession (or addiction) with voyeurism went a long way to destoying my wife's intimacy with me (she never shared this fantasy of mine). I am disgusted without myself for ever having these desires, and regret them deeply. I have confessed, repented and asked God's foregiveness for them. I have verbally and in writing expressed my deepest sorrow, shame, regret and self-loathing to my wife for those desires that I continued to push upon her despite her telling me that she didn't like it, and what they have contributed to our current situation. I have asked her for her forgiveness, and I hope to, in time, receive it.

I appreciate the advice, opinions and experiences you all are willing to share with me, my wife and others. I respect your positions, and will listen to them with an open mind. I do not guarantee that I will agree with them, but I will listen to them. I love my wife, and I will stand by her through this trial, willing and able to help in any way I can. I have been in constant prayer, I have sought counsel from many, and I have read scripture. I have said this before, and will say it again. I firmly believe that I am following God's direction in my actions.

Magpie,

Could you please explain to us why you ARE going on this trip? What will you get out of this TRIP? What will your marriage get out of this trip? Could you put yourself in birds shoes and think what will go thru his mind when you are with OM? If you could do this try using a male brain point of view. What do you think will OM get out of this, he is vulnerable b/c his divorce? He might be using you just to get over his ex wife, what will he do when he get over the divorce? I think nothing with you!!

I know I am wasting my time with this reply!!!

There is a ¨letter for the WS¨ if someone could revere you to it as can't remember where it is.

Yes you have had a bad marriage, but the quicker you both commit to the building of a new marriage the quicker you can feel full filled in life and in marriage. What greater feeling is there than and married couple having a full filled marriage??

Van.

You know, I read Magpie's post and I can't get past the arrogance. She's in the wrong...nothing on God's green earth justifies an adultery...but she thinks it was a good thing. She's going to do what she wants to do come he!! or high water and the heck with the consequences to her children and marriage. I can't get beyond the selfishness of her actions and words. Essentially, it's her way or scr3w you. She admits she’s putting a lot of people through the wringer, but there’s no compassion in her at all. She’s going to go sleep with the OM (to test some “theory” ??) and anyone who doesn’t see she has some kind of God-given right to do that can drop dead. I can only shake my head in bemused astonishment. I wish this couple well, but there’s got to be some major attitude adjustment on this woman’s part before they can have a real marriage.

It's the type of insanity that comes with an A. The persons involved tend to do things that they would never do under "normal" circumstances, like leave their children in order to have a "test screw" with the OP. It's simply the addiction at work.

My advice to "Magpie" would be to wait a few months before going on that trip, to see if she still feels as strongly about it after her M has had some time to recover. And for BrokenBird, if three months pass and his WW still feels as strongly about going on that trip, then he should know then what he may have to do (Plan B, anyone?).

He certainly IS enabling it. It's a mistake. One that I made too. It doesn't end an affair, it feeds it and adds to the excitement.

You are trying to make it almost noble of him to do it. "See how much he loves this 'strong-willed, stubborn, whirlwind' woman? How great is he to let me stomp all over his heart and soul to get what I want?"

As for loving you despite the 'crap you put yourself and him through'...while it's admirable to love a person with all their faults it's another to help them continue hurting themselves.

Bird - Would you help your wife to one last crack spree if she were a drug addict? Would you pay for her last alcohol binge before she stopped drinking? I implore you - from experience - to take a stand. You can not stop her, true, but I will tell you that God is NOT telling you, as a man, to send your wife off to have sex with another man in an effort to save your marriage.


Not really stopping one either. You had a choice. You chose to deal with it by having an affair. There were other choices, including leaving your marriage FIRST, you could have chosen.


Ok. You woke him up. Honestly, it is the only thing that finally wakes up a lot of people. The difference is that you are CONTINUING. You say it horrible and distasteful. YES IT IS.

At this point you are choosing a horrible and distasteful path that IS AND WILL CONTINUE to hurt not only your husband and child, but you.



Save this. Really and truly save it. This is something you will look back at in the future and cringe over. I've never heard running off to shack up for a week with a lover while leaving your husband and child without you called 'ditsy and unconventional'.

Heck, I'm saving that one.



That's nice. Make your adulterous trip a little shorter. Then it's a little less horrible and distasteful? Are you really ready to accept being horrible and distasteful? This is a CHOICE you are making.


Yes. You are an adult. Making your own choices. In your own words, horrible and distasteful.


Is this payback?


You can't work on it while being in an adulterous affair. You just can't. You can't work on it while making the decision to flaunt your affair to your husband, leaving him behind at home with your child while you go have sex and test the limits.


Counseling doesn't work while you are having an affair. You are choosing to hurt your husband in a horrible way. You need work on your marriage.

THEN WORK. Don't go out and continue to commit adultery. Work on it.

GO TO YOUR COUNSELOR!! Spend the time that you are giving to your affair to your husband, to your child.

Why waste one more moment being horrible and distasteful?

You have an incredible opportunity. It's hard and you won't have an easy ride but what is more important than recoverying your marriage and creating a life of security and love for you, your husband and your child?

You have been given a gift, a blessing of a man who loves you so much that he is looking within, not outside, of himself to find a way to make himself right to make your marriage right. He loves you so much and loves his family so much that he wants to be with you regardless of the affair and your willingness to crush his heart and soul by leaving NOW to see another man and continue the distasteful and horrible affair.

There is certainly much to work through and on.... for both of you. The state of your marriage is on both of you. But the choice to have an affair is solely your decision. The choice to continue that affair is solely yours.

Please stop right now. Don't take this trip. Do it for you, your husband and your child. Give them the greatest gift you can...yourself.

Although people will be very honest and blunt with you, there is no one here that doesn't wish the best for you and your marriage. If you choose to accept the help, it's here.

FIM