This is a very common male characteristic. If he is done with Dave he feels no compulsion to discuss it with Dave he'd rather just let Dave and Sue fade away. This is why guys always just stop calling girls when they are done with a relationship. There is nothing to discuss...it's over. Conflict avoidance where no conflict is necessary. Indeed, when Dave called it caught him off-guard and he was in no place to tell Dave in person (albeit on the phone) "I'm no longer going to be calling you or talking to you". Guys just don't speak to each other like that.

There are alternatives that perhaps would satisfy you and him. Years ago I wrote a "dissolution of frienship" letter to a very good friend who did whatever he could behind my back to antagonize my wife. For years I didn't see it and had difficulty jumping down his throat for something I didn't witness or hear. Eventually I caught on and still thought it riduculous to "discuss" with him. I wrote him that our friendship, as he had known, was over because he had disrespected my wife and through her me for the last time. I wrote that we would be happy to pass and repass him around town or if he happened around us with mutual friends. The letter worked like a champ. My wife read it first to give her approval and it was sent. Friendshp over.

Great job coming hear to discuss your problems and concerns. MB board is a much more realistic place to get sound advice. You likely thought you were posting about his problems only to discover all problems are two sided problems in marriage.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Since I sent that letter about 5 years ago we have run into my old friend a few times and actually had fun catching up with him. At a wedding my wife and I moved our table assignment over to his table and we "partied" with him and his wife all night. However, we still maintained distance and didn't follow up on the "we should get together next ...." type comments. Dave and your husband have been friends a long time and if your husband just lets the relationship disappear he can still call Dave an old friend not an ex-friend.

Personally I see this as you are placing BH under a microscope...and your self proclamations of being sorry and asking forgiveness and your present thoughts here electronically recorded do not show the actions or thoughts of a former wayward spouse.

I see you still fogged my dear.

I see you still saying basically that "BH is lucky YOU chose to take him back".

I am sorry dear it is the other way around! YOU ARE LUCKY BH WILL TAKE YOU BACK!

And he actually might find fault with you my dear! He actually may! You are not perfect!

Males and females do NOT speak the same languages btw. Mr. Wondering is right.

But what is common to BOTH males and females is the actions that occur when a spouse is wayward.

And according to the WS Handbook, it is acceptable for them to "BLAME THE BS FOR MAKING THEM CHEAT"...That's in the chapter entitled "HOW TO GET AWAY WITH AN AFFAIR WHEN YOU'RE CAUGHT". My xh used to spout this stuff to me. It is called by us here, as revisionist history. Where the WS blows up problems with the BS.

My xh used to make ridiculous claims of me. Now he makes the same claims plus a few more even stupider ones about his present W! And he's still a WS!

If you repent, you repent totally. You get your heart straight.

I honestly feel you are still in love with the OM or else you would not react this way.

But it is great you are here and learning and trying.

Keep it up.

Just remember...
YOUR H DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE YOU BACK.

HE could have chosen to view you as damaged goods. Or a person he could not forgive. And he could be, with all his faults you cringe at, out the door and soon in the arms of another woman. Do you ever consider that?

I pray you use the gift and miracle of Christmas love to recognize that your family has been given a special gift of a second chance. Don't waste it. Or else you will wind up one day like my xh. And you get to that point and you cannot take it back...nothing you do.

Cookie-

Although some posters already chastised you, I wont go there, but let me try to offer a couple of answers to your questions:

(1) Re Dave and Sue: You have friends, H has friends, and you both have friends. If there is friction between you and Sue, then you may want to simply classify Dave and Sue as your H’s friends, instead of your and your H’s friends. The problem when a spouse (you in this case) tries to be a friend with the friend of her H, then her H’s loyalty is divided. It is difficult for H to be loyal to W and to his friends when they conflict. Just stop communicating with Sue and Dave, and just withdraw to the background. Sending back gifts back just reeks of spitefulness; when the gifts arrive, have your H handle them. Just be supportive of his R with Dave and Sue or lack thereof, but do not participate in it.

(2) Your characterization that he does not help others does not ring true. He may not be helpful to neighbors as much as you are, but it sounds like if Dave were to ask him for something, than he’d help Dave.

(3) If you are better at interactions with neighbors then H is, then just handle such disputes yourself, instead of making your H do it. No big deal.

--AG

Thank you all for your input. I must admit that I'm feeling pretty sheepish about the tone of my original post. I know it sounded harsh and judgemental.

At the same time, however, it's discouraging to bring an issue to the board and have it dismissed as "revisionist history" or "brow beating", just because I'm a FWW.

I'm NOT trying to justify my affair. What I AM trying to do is tackle the issues and sources of conflict that contributed to the demise of our marriage leading up to the affair. If I don't do that, what's to stop my H and me from slipping right back into that same sorry state?

RE: Taking a stand and the whole "Dave & Sue incident":

Mr. Wondering -- Thank you so much for helping me to see the situation a different way, from the "male perspective". That was very helpful. Only problem is, my husband has tried to "ignore" Dave away many times before, and it just doesn't work. The guy just won't take a hint.

Believer -- You're right. He did stand up for me. I am very greatful for that. And I've made sure he knows it.

Average -- I get what you're saying about quietly moving myself out of the picture. That's pretty much what I've done. Somehow, I don't think it will be that simple, but we'll see. As for the gifts, I didn't want to return them out of spite, but I can see how it might look that way. Thanks for pointing that out. On the other hand, if I stop communicating with them all toghter, they won't be getting a "thank you" note. Might not that also be construed as spiteful?


RE: Not helping others, doing favors etc.

I truely believe this is not a mischaractarization. It is something that has bothered me for a long time. There are many, many, many examples of it. Lost -- you suggested that I re-examine each instance. So I did. I could probably make excuses for him in most of the cases. But it still adds up to a pattern of unwillingness to 'do unto others'.

I have to figure out a way to talk to him about it. If I were doing something on a regular basis that bothered my H and made him lose respect for me, I would want him to talk to me about it. And I'd like to say that I'd do my best to change the behavior. Believer -- I like the way you wrote "let him know you would appreciate his support" -- great way to phrase it! I can definately use that!

--SC

TA,
For the answer to your question, you think I should look in the mirror?

sorry smartcookie...the fact that are a formerWS has nothing to do with the responses you got..

I had no idea what you are/were and had the same reaction as star and pep and others....

this can certainly be the hill you choose your battle on and then you can divorce him based on your reasons....and no one here can tell you differently...

but you CAN'T change him..you can't FORCE him to be this way...but you can certainly influrence him with love...

only change yourself...
and hope that changes you make illicit good changes in others....

that answer is the same no matter the title...

WS. BS. OP etc etc etc...

people are often raised tit for tat...
equal this for equal that...
that is what they know...show them lovingly a different way without accusation and arguement...and you often as they say catch more flies with honey.....

ARK

Ark,

Not to belabor the point, but if the responses I received had nothing to do with my status as "FWW", then why did I get so many of these: "You're lucky he took you back."

And...

And...

And...

In other words -- if you cheat, and you come here with an issue that pre-dates your affair, you're going to be told that (a) you must be blowing the issue out of proportion because anyone wonderful enough to take back a cheating spouse couldn't possibly have that kind of fault... and/or (b) all you cheating spouses are the same, you conjure up problems with the BS to justify your affair... and/or (c) you've got a lot of nerve complaining, little girl, after what you did!

I'll take the heat for the judgmental and disrespectful tone of my original post. But I think the above is a dangerous message to send FWSs who are working hard to rebuild their marriages. Part of that process is examining the issues and problems that contributed to the deterioration of the marriage in the first place.

That said, your suggestion that I try to influence my H with love is well taken. Thank you.

--SC

no smartcookie..

IF this is the battle you want to kill this marriage on you are welcome to it...and no one could change your mind...

this is not an issue that is the creation of an unhealthy marriage...

this is an individual quirk of your husband ..the tit for tat stuff..tons of people are like that..

the decision is yours... can you be married to someone who is like that?...if the answer is NO walk away..but you are much greater served in changing your approach than trying to change him....

those are things I am talking about in response to your FWS status...

no matter the date of the issue....it is your decision...
can you learn to live with that about him graciously or not....

we all compromise in marriage....

you are right that posts that elude to your FWS status in this post aren't fair....
this is not a FWS BS issue...it is a marital issue existing with or without an affair...

but the approach and attitudes lays with you

ARK

Smartcookie - The way I see it is you do not think your H is a good person because he does not help other people they way you think he should, this has nothing to do with being a FWW. Have you heard the saying, charity starts at home? It use to drive me crazy that my H would always be willing to help other people, at my/our expense. He would put other peoples needs ahead of my/our needs. It sounds like that is what you are doing. Your H's needs and the needs of your M MUST come before your need to help people outside of your M. And my guess is that he helps people, just not in the way that you do, i.e. you babysit other peoples children. Maybe he doesn't see that as being a very important way to help others. Does he give money to charity? Does he work hard so you don't have to? Does he take care of the house? The problem I see is a disrespectful judgement of his character by you, i.e. he is bad because he doesn't help people the way I do, and I am a good because I do.

I just want to echo what most everyone else here is saying.

I think you should pay more attention to how your husband treats YOU and not how he treats others.

You may see it as his not having the balls to stand up to people, but I think he just has a different style. Remember, we all have strengths and weaknesses in different areas. If you're husband is "weak" in this respect..........so what. Does it really matter? He must be very strong in other situations. Perhaps you are not giving his strengths the attention they deserve, instead focusing on his weaknesses.

Also, maybe he has deeper reasons for why he doesn't seem to want to help out others.

It sounds to me as though you are WAY TOO CERTAIN that you know all of your husband's motivations.

My advice is simple: Worry more about you and less about him.

SmartCookie --
I, for one, think the responses you got were very much flavored with BS bias.

You have a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed. And you asked for help in dealing with it. And I commend you for recognizing that the Pre-affair lovebank withdrawals MUST be addressed or you will find yourself right back in the muck.

Your BS is lucky you're a repentant WS who wants to fix your marriage (Ahem...anyone here looking at all of those who AREN'T??)
And yes, you are lucky your BS wants to work on things too!
You are BOTH LUCKY -- if it works!

****
For the other posters:
I can't believe how contradictory the advice here can be!

So in this post we say if a person acts a certain way for a certain amount of time, then we call that "personality", and they will never change?

However, if a BS get the "wake-up" call after an affair and makes all their Plan A changes then those are SINCERE, huh? According to the above advice, apparently not!

***
I really resent posters who think the WS has a lifetime of penence to do. They BOTH have work to do. And SmartCookie is STILL entitled to being disappointed in her husband even if she had 20 affairs. Her being a WS doesn't make him perfect.

Hey SC just thought I would put in my .02 worth on this. I don't want to beat up on you but you really should not make those disrespecful judgements about your husband.

My STBXW and I had the same problems. I would come home and have kids that I did not expect and I might be grumpy about it. Maybe I had some plans for myself that I wanted to do, or I wanted to go out with my family. Now we had a messy house and I could not leave because my wife without checking with me took on another kid.

Does this mean I do not care about others, not at all. I may have had a tough day myself and wanted to rest or go out and now my plans were ruined because my wife did not check with me.

Now from your Husbands point of view did it ever occur to you he could have made the judgment that you care about other people more than him? I mean you don't check with him and his plans and what he wants to do? All you care about is your friends.

Another point that you may want to think about is his forgiving attitude towards his friend. I know this makes you angry but this is a gift to you and a curse. You see he did the same thing for you when he forgave you for what you did to him.

One last thing, I don' think you realize how fortunate you are to have a spouse that forgave you for cheating. My wife was really a bad wife for our whole 18 years together. I always had hope that things would change. As soon as she cheated the marriage was over for me. Not all men can forgive this. As a matter of fact my wife could have done almost anything else to me and I would forgive her. But this is a deal breaker for me and for a lot of people.

You know what, I really, really, really don't want to turn this into a Mr. Cookie bashing fest. But instead of suggesting ways that I can approach him about this, you guys seem intent on convincing me that I've "got him all wrong".

He does not give money to charity.

He does not volunteer with any organization.

Occasionally, we're asked to help out on a charity fundraising event. If I can talk him into it, he grumbles the whole time about the nice beach day or football game he's missing.

Yes he works, helps take care of the kids, and does housework. So do I.

Over the years, he has made up excuses to get out of doing all sorts of favors for friends -- big and small -- helping them move, giving them a ride somewhere, loaning them a few bucks, whatever!

The fact that I did not check with him about our friends' child coming over that one day was the exception not the rule. I almost always consult with him before I agree to do anything for anyone else, and I almost always get the same negative response from him.

As I said before, you can make excuses for each and every thing I listed, and the numerous others I won't bother to go into. But taken as a whole, they all add up to an unwillingness to help others if it means he has to go out of his way or be inconvenienced in the least little way. And every time it happens, it makes me lose respect for him.

He also happens to have less than ideal table manners, is what I would call a "surface cleaner", and makes fun of fat people. Oh well. I'm terrible with money, tend to be scatter brained, and can't seem to keep that one corner of the kitchen counter where my mail piles up neat and tidy. Yes, I have my share of faults too.

I'm not here to pick him apart... or demand that he change every annoying habit... or try to make him "perfect".
And I want to thank you all for helping me to see the way he handles conflict from a different perspective.

However the "not helping" thing is different. It's not a personality trait. It's a way of viewing the world (no value in helping others if there's not something in it for me), and a way of behaving. As Lexxxy points out (thank you, Lexxxy) people change their behaviors and ways of looking at things all the time -- IF SO MOTIVATED.

Anyone else want to suggest ways I can motivate my man of many redeming qualities?

--SC

Do something special for him in the bedroom and he will be putty in your hand.

Killer,
Thank you for the laugh! I needed that. I don't know if you were just trying to make a joke, or telling me to lighten up or what. But that little one liner had all of the above positive effects. (Plus, now you've got me thinking of how I'll greet him when he comes home from work tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

BRAVO!

Hey, glad I could help.

I don't know, I was half-serious, half-joking when I wrote that, but you know, it really is true.

Men often respond quite well after "SF". I hate that acronym. We are all adults here, why can't we just say "sex"?

Anyway, you asked how to get your husband to respond better to you. If that doesn't help.................shoot, I don't know what would.

-Chris

If he would like to send me a gift certificate for my help in his "home-coming welcoming", BestBuy or Circuit City would be just fine.

thank you.

SC,

What does Dr. Harley say about this? He says that a couple should do nothing without both being enthusiastically behind something. So, your husband doesnt want to do this...but you need for him to do this.

So, how can you POJA (Policy of joint Agreement) this where both of you enthusiastically get behind this? I think this is your question.

If so, then from what we have read from and about Mr. Cookie on here, he really is a good man and really does love you. So, here is what I would suggest.

You need to have a sit down talk. Tell him how much this means to you (I know, I know...you have said it a thousandf times before...but this time, it will be done differently). Tell him that you love him, that you want things to continue down the right road. That you want to meet his needs so that he will be happy. Tell him that for you to be happy, there are some things that you need also and really cannot live without in a relationship. And one of these is his helping out with friends and/or family.

Tell him how it makes you feel when he does these things. Dont be negative and tell him how it hurts you when he doesnt. Almost no one is motivated by the negative. The positive is what he will latch onto. So, tell him that everytime he helps or does something along those lines, that it makes you so proud that he is your husband, or whatever else it makes you feel like. Paint the picture, SC. Tell him how this will not only make him a hero in your eyes...but soooo much more!

Once you lay it out there, then sit back and listen. Listen to what he says. Listen to why he may not have wanted to or still not want to do these things. Maybe somethign happened in the past. Maybe he was raised by parents that shunned doing these things. Who knows? Listen closely. Ask questions. Try to understand why he is against it.

Once you know why, and once he understands that these things makes him look like a conquering hero to you...it is then that the two of you can POJA. He will then try to find a way around his objections, and you will better know how to help him around those objections.

Let's take it off the subject you had and turn it toward one that almost always is a huge problem. Sex. When the spouses are not in sync, there is almost little discussion about how to fix it. Usually, just frustration with each other. He wants it too much. She wants it too little. Or whatever the issues are.

So, how do you fix this? Well, you have to POJA, of course. But to get that agreement, you both would have to compromise. Okay, in my case, I would love sex twice a day. Would love it!! My wife would be depositing billions of dollars in love units into my love bank if she did that. But, is that realistic? Nope!

In the meantime, my wife may only want to two or three times a week. So, how do we cross that chasm? We negotiate. I told that story many times on here about the woman that came up with a plan for this prtoblem. She would go for an extra day or two during the week (instead of just one or two) and give him a special weekend once every three months). In return, she wouldnt feel pressured all of the time for sex. They both came up with a plan that works for them!

In your case, maybe he doesnt want to have to constantly being doing stuff for other folks. Maybe when he was younger, his parents had him doing all sorts of chores for family friends and relatives. So, maybe you compromise and say that you promise to help limit the amount and time that he does these things...and in return, he will expand his involvement in this.

Like I said, I dont know what his objections are. I just know that there is a middle ground here, one that the two of you can find.

Look, this little exercise will be helpful in that it will help both of you learn how to POJA, so that you will be able to do so in every facet of your lives. If you can figure out how to work thru this, then you will have the key on how the two of you can negotiate your way thru the rest of your lives...and be happy!

To those that think that change is not posssible...I certainly do not believe that! While for example, I may always have a high sex drive, I also was able to find a way to be happy with less than what I wanted without being resentful. Sure, my sex drive hasnt changed. But the way I deal with that has.

Mr. Cookie may not change how he feels inside about this issue. But he can change how he reacts to it or how he handles it. And he will do so because he loves his wife and understands how important this is to him. Unlike before the affair, he now understands what happens when we ignore these things. That is why SC needs to just sit down and have an adult conversation. To not nag or try to convince him of anything. But to just present her case and leave her request to him. If the man truly loves her, then he will work with her to find a solution!

In His arms.

bwahahahaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SC,

Without reading any further than this post
First, I think Star and Pep among others have given you good advice. Interestingly you are assuming (definitely a DJ) that the advice that you are getting is based on your affair. I don't preceive this to be the case. Other than his behavior subsequent to the affair has revealed a few things about his character and love for you that pre-A you did not realize.

My personal take on this is that it is a common problem among married spouses. I could offer you all sorts of reasons for why your H has and does respond as he does. Some of them might even be right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I could offer you reasons for why you are viewing it the way you do, and again I might be right.

But, the issue is NOT what I think but why YOU do, what you do, why he does, what he does and can you two understand one another. Right now given that you are posting it seems that YOU are the only one with a problem with how their spouse acts. I am guessing that if your H posted he might have a problem or two about how you act.

I think rather than disrespect your H you need to assume that he has a reason for his actions. If you are curious you might even ask him, not in a "WHY DO YOU DO THIS?" sort of way, but rather "Dear I am curious. When we had little Johnny over last night, you seem irritated (sp). Were you and if so why?" You do need to understand him.

He needs to understand you. I just see two people that view the world a little differently. One of the reasons I came to this site years ago, was that I was viewing things my W did in a very negative fashion, not dissimilar to you. I came to realize that it was MY problem, and that I needed to realize that was how my W reacted to things and showed things even if they were NOT how I would really like things. AS I changed my perspective (not my beliefs, or my character, or who I am) I found not only could I handle it, I could actually get what I needed.

I think to some extent you not seeing "eye to eye" with your H is very similar to my problems. You two will NEVER think alike or even react to stimulii the same way, but you two can complement one another and all that takes is a change of perspective not a change in YOU.

I sense you two have similarities you don't recognize (such as, given your choices you are both conflict avoiders most people are to some to degree). But, in other cases I can see while you find little fault in your generousity, your H would see it as you being taken advantage of. By the same token his avoidance of being taken advantage of, might lead him to be more closed to friendships and giving than is optimal for you two.


I don't see the need for either of you to change. What I see in your comments is the need for you two to talk and agree that you have different perspectives on things and these difference could actually help balance the two of you.

I will say that the comments that Star pointed out set my teeth on edge and show a deep lack of respect for your H. You really need to think about this one abit, but I am betting it is this lack of respect that has led to your loss of loving feelings for him, and yes even your affair. Yet, it is clear from your own statements that you do not know him very well nor do you read him very well, as evidenced by your surprise at his response to your affair and the extreme pain you put him in. It is clear to me that you don't see your H very well at all and thus perhaps in discussing things with him you need to question YOUR view of him via the data he can provide and has provided to you.

We are not talking about changing here SC. We are talking about perspective.

Hope this helps now I will go back to reading the rest of this.

God Bless,

JL