I have a little more to say. I first read the Harley books and this website just after the A. What got through to me most of all was the lack of judgement and the actual caring and understanding.

To say it turned my life around would be an understatement.

Also, the way my H reacted was just as important. My first post on here was how he sat me down one night and said "now tell me your story. I can't promise I won't be hurt but I won't interrupt and I won't get angry."

The start of recovery for us.

Jen

Kiwi, I'm not hostile to anything JL is saying. I've seen what the normal process out here does. It works wonders. If you'll read my other posts, you'll see I almost always promote the MB process right down the line.

I AM saying a good counselor uses the particular counseling technique that will work best in a given situation, okay? I don’t know if you’ve investigated the subject, but there are many such techniques, not just one. My instincts, developed by a small amount of training and years of having a duty to counsel subordinates as a first line supervisor in the past, tell me this woman needs to be brought up short and confronted with a total absence of agreement in her motives and conduct. It's a process that has worked for me in the past.

Kiwi, this woman is not the normal wayward spouse and I don’t think the normal patterns apply to her at this moment. If you’ll look at her husband’s thread, you’ll see others, some of them long-term MB folks, agree at least partially with me.

Kiwi, based on my experience, I don't think any progress can be made until this woman agrees in the core of her being she's dead wrong in what she's doing. Once she accepts the cruel immorality of her behavior and stops it, you'll see me turn around and make what poor contributions I can to ease her mind and smooth the process toward reconciliation.

What I am, is extraordinarily concerned about her children and the impact this will have on them. She thinks they don’t understand what is going on. I have news for her. My 30-something daughter told me some time ago she knew her mother was involved in an affair while married to me. My daughter was four and five years old at the time. Problems in the relationship between mother and daughter continue to this day, Kiwi. I’d sure like to help Maggie’s children NOT have to face the knowledge of their mother’s infidelity, even later in their lives.

I may well be wrong in what I think is the right thing to do, Kiwi. After all, I’m just another amateur out here posting opinions. I welcome the exchange of ideas and I’m completely receptive to what JL, you, and others have to say based on YOUR experiences, okay?

I hope I’ve said nothing above to antagonize you. Sometimes I don’t word things as well as I might and I give offense when I don’t mean to. If I inadvertently have, please forgive me. At the very least, can we agree in a friendly manner that we’re just going to disagree on this one occasion, and on this one thread?

Gosh Longhorn you didn't antagonise me at all. When I read my post afterwards I realised I sounded a bit grumpy. That was certainly not my intention. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Back to you, Magpie, after all it's your thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't really think you ARE any different from any other WW involved in an A. We all sound the same when we're in the throes of it.

I don't know if you want our help or if you're here to tell "your" side of the story which, as you're finding, has all been heard before and still, in my opinion, doesn't justify anything.

Jen

Why don't you see what an affair can do to a family? Read what happened to my family?

My xh's marriage...the affair marriage...is barely alive...never been faithful..and it's almost 2 years old...and our divorce is 2 years final today.

do you want this?

your family has a chance.

Magpie,

I have a few thoughts.

First, you say that your kids may one day know of the affair.

I think that is optimistic thinking. It is far more likely that they will know of the affair and probably sooner than you would like. How they will react is another issue. I don't know. Children can learn, in time, how to handle a divorce. But, an affair?? Sometimes they never are able to adjust to it and it becomes a permanent obstacle between them and the parent. Be careful.

Second, a wise person once told me "Having an affair because your marriage has problems, is like burning down your house to get rid of the termites. It works, but...."

Magpie,




Magpie:

Hello, I have read most of your posts. Like Lemonman I understand where you are coming from. My wife Myrta had an affair and wrote the most incredible love notes to her OM. No different than you or any other WW. In retrospect all the love notes where BS. Affair love is not real love--------it is nothing but lust.

Unlike your H when I discovered the affair I asked my wife to go and live with OM. I knew divorce was a hard thing to do and I felt that if my wife did what you want to do I would feel 100% justified in ending the marriage. I must have asked her a 100 times to ride into the sunset with OM.

If my wife had said she wanted to fly to see OM it would have been a one way ticket------no doubt.

For the record I believe Bird is wrong in acting the way he does. If I was the Bird you would already be with OM and I would have seen a lawyer to start the divorce.

My wife was defensive-----------she mostly defended her inability to go NC in one swift move. At the onset my wife wanted to save the marriage and tried NC even though it did not feel natural. She had the strength to dump PM on her own with me pressuring her to do so.

NC is not something one wants to do. On the contrary one wants more contact. You are flying by listening to your heart instead of your brain.

Several things come to mind:

1. All relationships go beyond the hot early stages.
2. After you leave your H and go live with OM he will be no different than your H. I fact he will likely be worse. There is no free lunch.
3. The overwhelming majority of affairs end VERY BADLY. The chance that you will have a successful relationship with OM is near zero percent.
4. Your relationship with OM feels special because it is an affair. Affair romance feels more intense because of the uncertainty of the relationship. The uncertainty creates tension that fuels the intensity of romance. Once the relationship is secure boredom sets in. This true for everybody.

Why did OM end his marriage? You only know his side of the story. I am sure this man is not a winner. As an OM he is probably nothing more than a smooth talker who says what you want to hear. Unfortunately many women (including my wife) fall for that smooth talk.


Perhaps you are saying the truth and this is an exit affair for you. Maybe your H is n horrible man. In that case go see a lawyer and get a D right away. Do not date OM as this will end in a disaster.

“I have decided to separate.”

Magpie,

I am not surprised. I say the following with no callous feelings for you. What you do and how you behave has no effects on my life. You and your situation will pass from my thoughts in an hour or so but you, your husband and your kids will have to deal with it.

I stated in my post on your husbands threat that there is a limit to the humiliation one can be expected to accept in order to save a marriage. For me you passed that point. That is purely my limit and it does vary between people. If after discovery my wife told me she was going somewhere to spend time with an OM and then coming back to possibly work things out I would tell her she had nothing to come back to. That is my limit – my point. I would deem this behaviour as being too disrespectful of my limits and emotions and the terms of marriage.

I guess one of the key reasons you separated from you husband is that you have no respect for him. You show that with your decision and it is confirmed with his acceptance of your decision. Mutual respect is one of the cornerstones of marriage and without it a marriage is doomed.

At least you have the honesty of separating rather than pulling your husband along. The way you have behaved to him and his responses to your actions are humiliating and degrading to both of you. Sorry – I don’t mean any disrespect. This is just how I see it.

Magpie

My wife was once in a vicious fog as you are. Like you she did not realise she was in a fog, and carried the same swaggering justification that you display in your posts.

It has been 18 months since my dear Squid last made contact with OM, and a lot has happened since then.

We are well in recovery - my wife loves me very much, and I her. She does not retain a SHRED of the justification and entitlement she once CERTAINLY espoused. Sometimes she is moved to dry retching by the sheer SHAME and fear raised by of looking back at her actions. I hold her and kiss her and try to assure her that she should have self respect for the person she is NOW not the person she was THEN.

Like Squid, one day your swagger and strut will leave you. Your justifications will wither under the light of truth and you will be struck cold when you realise you were quoting holy scripture in a post defending the ungodly and sinful actions of an adulteress - knowingly destroying your BH's heart and the union you SWORE to uphold before God.

May Almighty God have mercy upon you and deliver you from this evil addiction as He has with so many WS. May your BHs heart remain strong enough to sustain him through this bitter trial,and may God let a single seed of undeserved love for you remain in the bottom of your H's heart that you may try to tend once your arrogance and deluded certain justification leaves as it surely will.

Amen.

Just a quick response to this for clarification of the time-line.

DH's repentance came after I admitted to the affair and either just before or just after our first MC session. No, I haven't fully forgiven him, a lot because of my own anger at what I let him do to me -- what I allowed myself to do. It's a recurring pattern for me (long story, to be worked out in counseling).

Actually, I don't know if any other WS's can agree with this, but I never felt this way about the OM. He made me feel different, and more like a woman than my DH, but not ... whole. But that may just be me. I can't remember the last time I didn't feel like "one of the guys" on one level or another ... but I digress.

And I know that I wouldn't have been so frustrated and upset with my DH if there hadn't been good times and feelings. The feelings with the OM, while thrilling, were always somewhat tainted precisely because of their nature and because they couldn't be in the open.

Ok, I am really into semantics, because I need things to be absolutely clear, please bear with me. I didn't say the OM wasn't the fatherly type, I said I didn't want him raising my children. We have some fundamental world views that really clash.

*heavy sarcasm laced with truth* I have some terrible deep self-destructive tendencies. They haven't come out in a while, so I thought them conquered. Till now. So, to give you an idea of how truly twisted I am, this isn't the worst thing I have done to myself. Certianly the worst thing I have done to my DH, but not to myself. If you get *really* bored, you can read my internal dialogue here My DH says it's sometimes the only way he can get in my head. There's a lot of dross, but some interesting stuff too. November is pretty interesting too ... I'm babbling.

I'd have to go back and look, but frankly, many of the posters put me on the defensive with their antagonistic judgements. I wasn't getting so much advice as being told to "grow up" and stop being a ******. And lots of advice for my DH to kick me to the curb. So if that's what you mean by advice, then I choose to reject that stuff. We came here to get help, and I'm sorry I don't have the required attitude, but yeesh! would I need this site as much if I did?

There have been others who commented on me and what was going on and talked about me with other members, but didn't actually offer advice -- like being talked about even though you are right there. These are the impressions that stick with me, mind you. And there have been about 3 people who actually offered advice *to* me in a way that doesn't put one on the defensive, or even just asked what I needed or why I was here, there, everywhere.

I think quite a bit of confusion came from the timeline of everything, but maybe that will all get sorted out. Both my dh and I found it amazing that his thread had very little activity till I posted. Just an observation. I'm tired of getting bashed for being arrogant.

So, I have a question: When not rambling, I am a very forthright person, in RL and in my writing. So does being forthright come across as arrogance? Because honestly, I have been trying to state things as objectively as possible, when relating facts, and my reasoning, and been called (paraphrasing) "full of entitlement, trying to justify, arrogant" and other terms in that vein. When in (my) reality, I have just been trying to objectively state the facts without "rewriting" my marriage history. My DH is reading this for heaven's sake! If I do "rewrite" anything he can call me on it!

I keep getting the feeling that y'all want me to be all contrite and humble and remorseful, etc in my postings and frankly, I'm just not that way, even when I have repented.

To illustrate: I was reading some of smartcookie's posts (the one about the love bank being emptied) and just *have* to ask --- how should a repentant WS act in posts?, cuz honestly, yall was tearing her apart and again, only about 3 people actually answered her question. Most respondents commented on her tone, her faults, how she is so lucky to have a husband take her back, how she needs to change,etc., etc., etc. She had to repeat her question. Some people on this board have a talent for putting people on the defensive and getting us off the intended course.</soapbox>

Just letting you know what it seems like to a WS who is searching. I'm not much for lurking, tend to speak my mind and ask for clarification as needed.


So, to answer your question succintcly (finally you say!) I wasn't hearing a whole lot that was helpful. I heard a lot of people just shy of ordering me and my dh what to do and maligning my character in all sorts of ways (and sometimes his too), but not a LOT of good advice on how to help me get through the fog or to help my dh get us through this.

Thank you.

We have the books, all of them, even the one for parents, as well as "Power of a praying wife" wish I wish someone had given to me at the beginning of our marriage.

Or the fact that I am a fighter and love a good debate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And I really have the need to set the record straight on some things. This one aberration of character is NOT who I am, if it was, I would be the type of person that my DH avoids at all costs and it would have come out long before now. I HATE having my character maligned or being pre-judged on the basis of one action. Fair warning, I AM a proud and stubborn woman most of the time, so yes, I will be a tough nut to crack, even after the fog has lifted.

That was my understanding from my DH since he lurked here for quite a bit before registering and lurked some more before posting. I guess a "what to expect" FAQ would be helpful. Faithful gave me about 2 seconds warning ... and some others, my goodness!
Wouldn't panic call for calm heads? Not necessarily kind words, but words chosen with care? If you were new here, how would you read the response I got? It's because I am stubborn that I am here, because honestly, after that first day (and I may have to go back and read bird's thread), no one gave me any encouragement. The general sentiment was that I could rot in HE!! till my attitude changed.
I've been searching for His voice for two months or more now. More, since September at least. It still didn't prevent what happened :~( (darnit, this needs a crying face)

Lost a long time ago, that's how I got in this mess.

But don't you see? That's adultery too. It had already happened and not had this effect. So yes, and no, I see and don't see where you are coming from. I understand that for the majority of you, adultery is the utmost form of betrayal of the marriage vow. But that had already been broken prior to this.

I have been in some really twisted relationships that have kinda screwed up my whole idea of what fidelity means. Personal history: before my dh, I was involved with a man many years my senior, who was in an open marriage. For the first 6 months of our relationship, he let me beleive that he was divorced and that we had a monogamous relationship. I was awoken to the truth quite abruptly but stayed with him for another 1.5 years, slowly working on him ... all my hard work paid off when he 1)divorced his wife, 2) dumped me for an older woman, 3) married HER and started going to church within a year of dumping me. According to his exw and most of his friends it was due to my influence. That's just one.

The way the word "justify" is used around here, it's like you think I am looking/asking for some sort of absolution for my actions. That's what it means. I'm not. I know there is no justification, no validity for what I did. Actually, the sick and twisted part is that it wouldn't be a problem for the DH if he hadn't specifically asked me not to sleep with this guy. At least based on prior experience.

fin

I'm home now. Came home on Friday.
That was already one of his stipulations before I left.

We've tossed this idea around. Not sure if it is financially feasible since I am a SAHM.

I said I would abide by his decision, so I am not stringing him along.

Magpie,
I am reluctent to post, I am not sure that I have anything helpful to say. But I used to be the WW, so you're being here is interesting to me. I do recall, when I was in the early stages of my affair, before I moved out and it became a physical affair, I did come here. I don't know if I posted, I think I probably did. I really wanted help for myself. I wanted to stop my destructive behavior.

I do understand feeling like the M is hopeless, love bank empty, why would I stick my neck out again just to have it chopped off. My H also knew of my affair (long distance phone thing with an old boyfriend), he didn't seem very interested in what I was doing. Until, I took off one night to try to be with OM. I didn't make it to see OM, I turned around and cried all the way home. I didn't want to be this woman (the whole adulterous ****** thing), but I sure didn't want to be H's wife anymore.

I felt really stuck, my options were pretty dismal. Loveless marriage or become something I didn't want to be. I honestly did not know how strongly I felt about monogamy until after I had left and woke up and saw who I had become. There was alot of self loathing and guilt and shame. I carry so much of that with me around today.

My kids were 3 and 5 at the time, and of course, they understood that we were separated but didn't know why. I am dealing with infidelity again, this time on my H's part. The girls are older 6 and 8. This time, they are old enough and they know why and they are devestated. I have also admitted to them that the last separation was due to mommy's infidelity and that was a very crappy thing to have to explain to my daughters. But, at least I can say I figured out I was wrong and I came home and tried my very best to be a good wife and mother.

I don't know if you should me married or not. That is none of my business. From your blogs, you look like a very invested wife and mother. I hear you saying that there is no pay off anymore, I get that.

Like I said, I don't think I have anything to say that will help you. I do think that there are options besides adultery and loveless marriage. You say that you will abide by whatever your H decides to do. What is it you want? Do you see that there are more than those two options? If the time machine fairy came down, at which point in your life would you want to go back to? Where did the train get derailed, not necessarily the marriage, but the magpie train?

I could be wrong, but I think you being here shows that you are not completely comfortable with your situation. No matter how egotistical people say you are, I don't think you would post to a bunch of strangers if you weren't looking for something.

I do wish you luck, whatever happens with the marriage, I hope that you can find that option that keeps you from feeling what I felt as a WW.

Orchid: I am going to take your post at face value. U R right, I and others don't know you from anyone else and the same goes for you regarding the rest of us. So far that still keeps us pretty much on the same level, eh? It really doesn't matter what we want you t/b. The real question is what have you learned you s/b to recover your M?

Let's put it another way, how would you expect another person t/b towards you if an act of betrayal, disloyalty and mistrust was commited against you?

How can a truly repentant person without being remorse & humble? I do know that when my Xws tried to do that, his recovery took steps back to the A. So please, clarify your statement to help me understand.


Orchid: That's a fair statement. Most here know there are those of us who do the same. The road goes both ways though..... so when we stray into the land of hurting others.....how does one of our type of character suppose to act?


Orchid: Hm..... what would you consider t/b good advice? I am gonna start a separate thread and take you all on a journey I went through over 2 years ago. Yea..... for me that is when I feel the real recovery started...... there were signs of it before that but until there really was NC along with a remorseful, humble and repentant WS...... recovery of the M would never have begun ot lasted.

I do commend you for posting here but that is just a start. Many before and after you will come with an attitude similar to yours. If it is right for you, then so be it....but most find that having more than one standard to live as and to live with makes life unfair.

If you haven't seen it yet...... many a BS who post here have been 'bashed' as you say...... and they are not the ones commting the A. So why the supposed 'bashing'? Because it really isn't bashing.....it is an effort to help them get the proper perspective and help them make positive changes to move forward, change bad habits, improve themselves and build their character to show themselves and others that their lives have value and s/b respected.

Discpline with love? Is that really possible? Yep..... but it could hurt a bit but taken with the right attitude it will heal. Taken with the wrong attitude.....it is like throwing pearls before.... well you know the rest of that quote. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is all up to you. It always was and it still is. If you choose to share your POVs with us fine, if we can help u and your H, that's good.

All the best,
L.

Maggie, your oldest child is old enough and undoubtedly knows you for what you are already; your youngest will soon enough. I lay awake two nights ago, miserable and depressed because I know your children will have to suffer for many years because of what you have done. You think your seamy, squalid little sexual interludes with that other man have gone unnoticed. They haven’t.

My daughters were your youngest child’s age when my ex-wife committed adultery. They saw and understood that what they were observing was wrong. They’re in their 30’s now and the contempt they feel for their mother is palpable whenever they are together. My youngest daughter just recently reiterated a long-standing feeling of how badly her mother’s example affected my daughter in the first years of her own marriage.

Congratulations. You aren’t just ruining your life with your recklessness, you’re ruining your husband’s, and very possibly your children’s. I don’t feel particularly sorry for your husband; he’s a big boy and should have taken some kind of proactive steps long since. YOUR actions are totally contemptible, but you’ll probably suffer the least.

All of my sympathy is reserved for your children. They are innocent in this whole thing. Unfortunately, you are so self-centered, you may never realize what you’ve done to them.
Frankly, you’re entitled to go to ****** any way you want and you’ve chosen yours. It’s so sad that you’ve decided on a path that will carry two innocent children along with you. I won’t waste my time reading anymore of your posts. There’s no point to it.

Magpie and BB,
Can you both agree that if you are to salvage and heal your marriage, that there needs to be a starting point and a very definite PLAN on how to go about this and achieve your goal. For that matter, exactly what is your goal? Do you both agree that a healed and restored M is what you want?
You need to start with a common goal. Can you define what that is. I'm hoping you both want that healed M and a loving family again. This IS very achievable, but, it will take a lot of hard word and an even bigger committment on BOTH your parts.

I think you probably need to start here. Define your common goal to each other and then we can start a plan of how to make it happen. On the other hand, you could completely stay away from this site and try things your own way for awhile. But the reason this site exits is beacuse Dr. Harley has decades of this type of experince, and has save countless M's that were in even worse shape that your. But, Dr. H always says, the 1st choice is yours. You could split right now and nobody would blame either of you. His point and his vocation is to tell you, you have other options about Divouseing, and it could be a wonderful new M if you were to choose that option.
Have to leave it up to you guys, but if you should choose to reconciliate, you're going to need help in getting there.
Please let us know what you have decided, and if so, how we can help!
All blessing,
Jerry