Man...I just typed the longest post and the computer ate it. My wife and I are going to watch a movie so I hope to be back my friend.

summary

1. Don't internalize anything you hear...IT IS ALL TYPICAL WAYWARD SPOUSE CRAP

2. Listen close and you'll really hear how much BSing is going back and forth...it is not real..it is just ego stroking back and forth

3. It hurts but you are her husband, God's number 1 choice for her and you must stay strong and confident if you intend to save her from damnation

4. Satan is at work on your marriage, both of you are possessed as your wife and you became one on your wedding day...do not let the demons have their way with your self-esteem and feelings of self-worth. You can cast them out of both of you.

5. Knowledge is power...it is better to know these things and have some control. Having a plan will also assist you with a feeling of control.

A "successfull" D-day:

1. Other threads address this subject (other MBers should be around to direct you to such threads)

2. Stay calm
3. It will not go down like in the movies where she'll admit to everything, vow to never see him again and she'll immediately become repentent.

4. Learn what Fog Babble is and how to reverse babble

5. When she raises her voice...you speak more softly...when she yells...you whisper.

6. She will bargain, beg, deny, attack, threaten, cry and say anything to maintain her addiction to OM.

7. She will do all of #6 to keep you from exposing

8. Do not threaten to expose...just do it, I am not sure if you do it before or after or simultaneiously with D-day but you must do it.

9. If OM is married you must expose to OM's wife, no, if and's or buts.

10. No negotiating

Mr. Wondering

I be around later tonight and tomorrow, heck, I'll be here all week

Thanks Mr. W.
OM is separated from his wife. He has 3 kids that go back and forth. I don't know if he wants to fix his marriage or not. Probably not. Do I still expose the A to his wife? What about his dad? Is there an advantage to exposing to OMs parents?
Hanging on to my sanity for the kids.

OM's wife and Dad definetely go on the list.

1. You are fighting this thing from both angles...OM and WW cause regardless of who or how they end it your marriage can not survive with an ongoing affair in the middle of it. You must bust it up first.

2. Affairs thrive on secrecy...to allow it to continue in any sort of secrecy allows it to fester.

Got to go...back tomorrow.

Mr. Wondering

Post your D-Day plan...when, where, who's got the kids, etc., what you want to do (throw her out, stay calm and try to work throught it, save your marriage, do whatever it takes to save your marriage, set ultimatums, hold off on ultimatums, establish boundaries, etc.)

Then the MB experts can get involved, critique it and make recommendations.

Mr. W

You will get some sound advice from the folks here, but take it with a grain of salt. IMO, sometimes its just not worth saving. You said it yourself "its getting old and its taking its toll". Best of luck to you either way.

I agree, Hanzo and it is your biblical right to leave your marriage lost and I will respect your decision no matter what you decide to do...However:

1. Giving up on your marriage is a bigggg decision which should not be undertaken when you are in such a hieghtened emotional state

2. This is a Marriage Builder's site so I try to stick with advising how to reconcile your marriage the MB way.

3. I assume you are here to try to save your marriage (though you may have arrived just to discover how to catch her)

4. You will regret not trying someday

5. You want to be able to tell your kids you gave their mother and your marriage every effort to succeed and reconcile

6. Until you bust up her affair there is no way to determine up front if it is "worth it". Your marriage may have been crummy up till now like mine was before my WW's affair, but though last April was the worst month of my life it was the best month for my marriage. A recovered marriage can be better. On the other hand, maybe she ain't worth it and she will never be repentent. Unfortunately, due to the nature of affairs, it is impossible to know upfront how your WW will end up and the choices she will make. If she makes the wrong choices she is doomed for a misable life...is that what you want for the mother of your children????

But like I said there are other ways of doing things. Some men just can't get over an affair, period. The Dobson method of Tough Love is an example wherein you just set her free and release her to her OM, is one. I personally do not think they are as succesfull for marital and/or personal recovery but that's just my opinion. You ultimately must decide what you want to do and if MB is your plan...I'll help you.

Mr. Wondering (the list maker)

[quote]I agree, Hanzo and it is your biblical right to leave your marriage lost and I will respect your decision no matter what you decide to do...However:

I am not a christian, so let's call it my human right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

1. Giving up on your marriage is a bigggg decision which should not be undertaken when you are in such a hieghtened emotional state

Agree with you there



2. This is a Marriage Builder's site so I try to stick with advising how to reconcile your marriage the MB way.

I find the MB principles interesting and possibly useful, but I also see alot of doormat behavior stemming from them

3. I assume you are here to try to save your marriage (though you may have arrived just to discover how to catch her)

Actually, I sorta just stumbled on to the site, found the stories on here engrossing for their personal drama and just kept coming back! I've been happily married for 15 years!



Like I said, you all give heartfelt advice, based on experience, more power to you, but reading a majority of the threads here, I see a ton of people taking way too much crap (dazedandconfused thread is a perfect example). Where is the line drawn? Sorry...I'm hijacking...nuff said. Keep up the great work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good morning. We're all getting ready to go to Mass. WW leads the children's church group. DD has class afterward to prepare for 1st communion. "Lead us not into temptation" really gets me these days. Thanks for the advice. I like lists. I came here to save my marriage, not just to bust her. The kids are a huge factor.

Of course, expose to your pastor and to the church.

In His arms.

I had the recorder in WWs car again today. 1st thing she does is call the OM. Talked about how great their sex is.Also a little about me. I had printed out EN questionaire and left it on my desk. She told OM how stupid she thought it was and if I ever asked her to fill it out she would just fill it out saying she had no desire for affection, SF, admiration etc. (FROM ME). Obviously because she's getting all that from him. She also told him that she was beginning to realize that she would have to move out to get away from me.(She can't stand being around me, go figure.) Her dream is to buy this consignment store in town and fix the upstairs to be an apt. That way she can leave our house after the kids are in bed, go sleep with OM and return in morning before I leave for work. Or maybe move out with the kids to live above the store. Crappy deal for the kids. To the OM my WW is blaming me for not leaving the house. Here are her reasons I should leave instead of her: #1 She chose the house.(Not true, it was her second choice. I had to convince her is was the best one.) #2 We used her money for the down payment. (Also not true. We sold our previous house for a huge profit and rolled that into our present house. No out of pocket downpayment.) #3 I'm never at here. She say she realizes I work and she's at home but blames me for MAKING THE CHOICE TO WORK.) Funny, but I didn't see it as optional. Her other comments to OM about me were that she didn't what to ever talk to me, share anything with me, communicate in any real way. She just wants me to leave her alone, not ask any questions of her and not expect anything other than she take care of the kids, cook meals, run errands during the day etc. Outside of that she wants her own separate life to be with OM. I'm borrowing a friends car soon to follow her and find out were OM lives. Then I should be about ready for D-Day. Oh, she also told OM that she wouldn't make me look like a chump and I should be happy about that. I guess she thinks the A will remain secret forever. Really?

I can see it now...when you do bust her she is going to be primarily ticked off because you disrupted her fantasy of maintaining a secret illicit affair with OM indefinetely.

I hope you can see how fogged out she is. There is no reality to their relationship hence you should not internalize a word of it. I am repeating myself because I know first hand how hard that actually is/was to listen to and not hurt.

Let us know your d-day plan. I think you should be exposing to OM's dad and WW's parents about 15 minutes before you speak to WW and then you should have an appointment with the Priest for the very next morning... i.e.- "Honey, if you are not immediately repentent I must expose you to the church as you are in direct opposition to God and should not be teaching Sunday School there"...When WW yells and screams nnooooooo...you just tell her "my obligation to God supercedes any demand or threat that you make"....Without judgment nor hostility. Exposure is not vindictive....it is to primarily to assist with breaking up the affair and casting a light on the illicit affair so reality can creep in.

If your wife is close with your mother/parents then you may expose there but if they are not then you MAY choose to hold off. If they can't help then why destroy that relationship right off the bat. See what happens.

BTW, there is a thread that was bumped up earlier called something like "exposure 101" read it.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. Wondering,
Isn't this threat of exposure to different people seen by WS as a form of blackmail and a huge LB? Not that I'm saying it's the wrong thing to do, but doesn't it bring the two affairees together against common obstacles? Sort of like, "You and me against the world, baby." They are so enmeshed in each other, now, stroking each other's egos and bodies I'm almost positive that's how it'll go. The only reaction I'm real curious about is how surprised she'll be that I'm not the most clueless guy in the world. Looking back on incidents in the past, I think she may have gotten away with this type of stuff before, hence her amazing confidence at never being discovered. She's rebuffed her parents when they try to talk to her about the difficulties in her marriage. She says they are "too close" and she can't talk about it with them. MIL knows she's been up to inappropriate stuff. (I told her about the bar hopping and some generally inappropriate text messages.) FIL doesn't want to believe his little girl would have an A so he won't even countenance the idea. He thinks she just needs a job and some other interests in which to place her passions!
68

You have all of the proof you need if you have those tapes. I don't see any reason why you need to hold back further on exposure.

I think that since her family is out of state, I'd start by talking with OMW first if he's married.

Then sit down with your wife and do exactly what MM outlined. Don't give her specifics...but let her know that you know enough that you're hurt and sick beyond belief. But...you love her, you love your family and your marriage, and you're going to work on saving your marriage. Make it clear that she needs to end the affair. See what her response is...and do NOT threaten her with anything, or let her know AT ALL what you're actions are.

If it appears that she's going to continue the affair, I would do call her parents IMMEDIATELY...and make it clear that you're asking for their help in getting their daughter to end her affair(s). You're not trying to be mean or hurtful...that you love your wife, but you know that anything you do to work on your marriage right now will be useless for as long as she's still seeing OM(s). And you're asking their help in getting her to end the affair. Let them know that you've talked with her about it, but she's not willing to end the affair and work on your marriage.

Normally, I say expose first. But in this case, since her family is out of the area and she won't be able to (or probably think of) doing immediate damage control with them. Do NOT tell her you're going to talk with them at all...and make sure you call and talk with them IMMEDIATELY after talking with WW.

If she does agree to work on the marriage (which I doubt...it rarely seems to work out that way), then make it clear what your requirements will be for reconciliation. Crystal clear.

Oh...yes, your wife will be FURIOUS over exposure.

Here's the thing...first off, when she goes ballistic on you about this, make it VERY VERY clear to her that you did nothing wrong here...the WRONG is what she did...and that the only reason she's angry is because she's got to face the consequences of her wrong actions. Your asking her family for help was NOT wrong, was NOT an attack on her, nor was there any better option for you to take. Had she chose to end her affair, you wouldn't have asked for outside help...but her CHOICE to continue the affair is what triggered this.

My case was similar to what I'm describing. My wife had an online EA...and all of her family, my family, etc...was out of state. I talked with her first, letting her know I knew of the affair. She chose to move out so she could fly away to live with OM who was out of state. I then called her sister, my family, etc...to get them to talk with her and see what they could do to help her realize what she was doing. My case worked out fine...but it did take a while before my wife could understand why I took the actions I did.

Hope this makes a bit of sense to you friend.

Owl,
My only reason for holding back on exposure is my recordings probably aren't admissible in court since they were made by me, not a PI. I'm trying to line up somebody to get independent confirmation like pictures of them going into OMs house etc. That can't be lied away, even to a FIL who doesn't want to believe.
OM and his wife are separated, maybe divorce impending. His wife might already know and not care. He's got 3 little kiddos, too. OM has expressed to WW before that he thinks their relationship is "complicated". She asked if that was a good or bad thing. He said it was "intriguing but also a pain in the a** ." The week after this conversation she made a point to go have major sex with him 3 times. Maybe she thought he was trying to back off and she needed to prove her worth. Do you think exposing to OMs wife in this sitch is a good idea? Might she rock his boat legally with his kiddos even if they are separated? I don't know how to find out the true status of their marriage without tipping my hand.
Requirements for reconciliation if she refuses to work on marriage and stop seeing OM? How would you all state this part? I can't move out and don't want to. WW is SAHM and watches DD8 and DS4. I also don't want her to pack up the kids and go move in with OM. Is there a way to prevent this?
68

OWL is dead on. Read the Exposure threads available here for more detailed clarification. But your right about one thing...never threaten exposure as to a WW it only appears manipulative, controlling, and vindictive. You just do exposure after you bust her and let her come back to you in a rage. The point your marriage can survive her ANTICIPATED rage...an on-going, ever deepening SECRETIVE affair your marriage can not. They already feel it is them against the world but the world doesn't know yet.

Let me give you an example....Do crack addicts like it when you enter the house, turn on all the lights and open the curtains. No they become irate. But you must shine the light on them so they can see themselves in the mirror and so they can see the destruction they are causing in the lives of those around them. You must shine the light on you wife so she can suffer consequences for her actions and perhaps, in enduring the coming pain, she will alter her behavior. The more pain the stronger the motivation to change will become.

Mr. Wondering

Lostherlove, you're getting some excellent advice. You have to expose to everyone who can put pressure on the affair and, as Owl says, you have the proof you need right now (unless you determine a divorce is the only thing you can do in your situation). Your posts say you want to work on the marriage and we'll support you in that decision.

With that in mind, it's time to expose. Is anything going to get better if you don't? Certainly not. Your wife will have no motivation to do anything but indulge herself with the affair.

She's going to go ballistic when you do. Read a sampling of the early posts by the BS's out here. You're probably going to be called names you've never heard your wife use in her life. Be prepared for it. The trip is going to get awfully bumpy so fasten your seatbelt and return your chair to the full upright position.

Hang in there pardner.

Thanks all! Anybody know more about the legal aspects RE kids in this deal? WW may pack up and leave. I know I can't stop her. Can she take my kids with her with no legal consequences?
68

As an attorney I believe they may be admissable. I am not a litigator (I do tax law) but you did not tap the phone lines you merely hid a recorder in your house...like a nannycam. Its admissable. You also will tape your D-Day conversation where no doubt you will get her admitting the affair.

I think I said before...you don't indicate you did the taping yourself and risk giving up your snooping tool instead you tell her you hired a P.I. and you have video, photos and eyewitness journal accounts of this, this, this, this and this (all facts you got from your tapes). Though she may hammer you for what details you've got or try to guess that you are bluffing she is only doing that to ascertain what information you have to see if she can lie her way around it...you do not blink first. She'll ask you to show her the proof and you say your lawyer is holding it for safekeeping. When she keeps pressing you you say maybe that you haven't looked at the video because the private eye said it was too hurtful and that you've only seen the pictures of him coming and going from the house on xy and z dates and the journal of times. She will come clean then...she can no longer hide behind the denials and may actually have some relief at coming clean and out from behind all the lies. On the other hand, she'll turn it all around on you and blame you for spying on her and that this is the last straw, etc....whatever, she'll cop to the evidence one way or another and THAT TAPE RECORDING will for certain be admissable.



You don't know and I bet OM is lying to your wife anyway. There is no down side to exposing to her. Whatever she can do to make OM miserable will only make the affair more miserable and just maybe the embarrasment alone will get him to end it with your wife. He's got kids...don't underestimate the power of OMW to get her husband and father of her children back.


He's quite the model citizen isn't he. Don't you ever feel second best to this loser. Also, if he'll cheat on his own wife and family what makes your WW believe he won't cheat on her. Oh that's right, their probably soulmates and she can change him...yeah right...whatever.


Exactly, it is not a real relationship and it is complicated. You are about to complicate it a lot more and just maybe OM will back off. It sounds horrible like you were second prize but it is much better than having to endure what Dazed and many others have gone through...months and months of cake eating and indicisive addicted Wayward wives just to bust up a fantasy illicit affair.



The best idea EVER



I can only hope. Have no sympathy for the infidels...this is war.




You can go to the local courthouse and ask where the divorce case filings registry is and search their name(s).



First it is easier and better to Plan A with you and your wife in the same home. I know it is tough but I endured a few weeks of continued contact and so can you. If you can't there are tougher plans than Marriage Builders out there but I'm just advising you on this plan. Stick it out while you Plan A.

Second, you never move out. If she wants to leave you can not stop her but you don't agree with it either. You make her abandon you and the kids if she walks out that door. Then you basically win custody of the kids which is a strong magnet for attracting you wife back to the marriage. If she wants to discuss divorce or a separation agreement you tell her you only do marriage and refer her to your lawyer for talks of LSA (legal sep agreement) or divorce. This is a great stalling technique to as she may walk out the door and "abandon" you in the meantime leaving you in a much better legal position as a Father fighting for custody.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering (I'm a '67 model myself)

No...Not without a legal separation agreement or a temporary order of the court issued pursuant to a divorce petition (which would likely be asking to kick you out of the house anyway)

Mr. W